3 hours ago, fiksi said:

There are many retinoids, and the one in is not exactly the same. Btw, do you know 0.00000001% or whatever cyanide in body is ok, but a 1g powder will kill you? This does not make tane safe at all.
My extreme muscle weakness was together with swallowing problems, headache, ataxia and such. This may be related.

I actually thought I got ALS or something very nasty.
Unfortunately, dry eyes could be permanent. Tane can completely or mostly destroy this gland, and there is no going back. Eye drops can help. Night vision changes can also be irreversible.

BTW, this effect is recognised to be permanent. It really sucks, yes.

If it hasn't gone by now, likely it won't. It sucks... I know. It ha snothign with your healthy life, it's accutane that damaged your body.

Then why do some people walk away with absolutely no side effects even after the highest of doses? If it was as toxic as we say it is then how come its not toxic to ALL people? I dont think theres a special group of people that get killed by cyanide...

Too many people coming onto this page thinking theyre doctors.

@Justdry

Haha yeah, Ive practically face palmed at the last 5 pages. I cant stand it when this page turns into a whine fest. All that negativity isnt good for my mental health so thats why I havent posted in a while.

1 hour ago, Colinboko said:

Then why do some people walk away with absolutely no side effects even after the highest of doses? If it was as toxic as we say it is then how come its not toxic to ALL people? I dont think theres a special group of people that get killed by cyanide...

Too many people coming onto this page thinking theyre doctors.

@Justdry

Haha yeah, Ive practically face palmed at the last 5 pages. I cant stand it when this page turns into a whine fest. All that negativity isnt good for my mental health so thats why I havent posted in a while.

How do you know there is no side effect, or somethign that is weakened now won't show later? Like other drugs, effects vary... but it's really systemic.

FYI, accutane is listed as known myotoxic drug.

It's not possible to predict who will get what, but we have people a year after still losing hair full speed. SOme effects only become apparent when much damage has been done.

Do you know even now Roche don't know how accutane works?

The goal is not to villify drug, but antibiotics I had are not given for almost certainly deadly neuroblastoma cancer or chemotherapy... side effects also mostly don't get reported. This drug may help, but long term efefcts are unpredictable. Average drug may have 10, 20, 30 side effects listed, tane has a complete small book of them.

7 minutes ago, fiksi said:

How do you know there is no side effect, or somethign that is weakened now won't show later? Like other drugs, effects vary... but it's really systemic.

FYI, accutane is listed as known myotoxic drug.

It's not possible to predict who will get what, but we have people a year after still losing hair full speed. SOme effects only become apparent when much damage has been done.

Do you know even now Roche don't know how accutane works?

The goal is not to villify drug, but antibiotics I had are not given for almost certainly deadly neuroblastoma cancer or chemotherapy... side effects also mostly don't get reported. This drug may help, but long term efefcts are unpredictable. Average drug may have 10, 20, 30 side effects listed, tane has a complete small book of them.

Youre just repeating what everyone has heard millions of times. Just trying to keep this thread from constant derailment... which will probably never happen. Sooo many thoughts which is amazing, dont get me wrong. But, the whole YOURE FUCKED FOR LIFE type posts arent beneficial to any members here.. whether theyre old or new.

1 hour ago, Colinboko said:

1 hour ago, fiksi said:

How do you know there is no side effect, or somethign that is weakened now won't show later? Like other drugs, effects vary... but it's really systemic.

FYI, accutane is listed as known myotoxic drug.

It's not possible to predict who will get what, but we have people a year after still losing hair full speed. SOme effects only become apparent when much damage has been done.

Do you know even now Roche don't know how accutane works?

The goal is not to villify drug, but antibiotics I had are not given for almost certainly deadly neuroblastoma cancer or chemotherapy... side effects also mostly don't get reported. This drug may help, but long term efefcts are unpredictable. Average drug may have 10, 20, 30 side effects listed, tane has a complete small book of them.

Youre just repeating what everyone has heard millions of times. Just trying to keep this thread from constant derailment... which will probably never happen. Sooo many thoughts which is amazing, dont get me wrong. But, the whole YOURE FUCKED FOR LIFE type posts arent beneficial to any members here.. whether theyre old or new.

I am not trying to depress you mate. Sorry.

Merely, I think derms should be more honest about side effects, and how long term they can be, and especially not give tane to light cases. New research is being done into tane, and new side effects keep being added.

I would have liked my derm to be more honest, and do depeer tests. If you try to report side effects of tane, some doctors will even ignore you.

With all I said, there are people who have been helped amazingly by tane and it has its uses. On my side, I can say extreme side effects I had from tane are reversing, and accutane induced myositis should resolve.

11 hours ago, Colinboko said:

12 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

I'd agree, it is Retinoic Acid we took after all, "Acid" being the operative word - the oxidative stress brought on is chronic system wide!!

Our body makes retinoic acid though.. maybe not in such extreme amounts but Im not really sure what youre getting at

If you overdose the body even with water you can die but small amounts are needed tostay alive , same analogy for isotretinoin mega dosing it can litteraly Kill you and cause severe system damage.

19 hours ago, Gladiatoro said:

The drug leaves the system in a couple of months derms say of course it does LIARS. I say do NOT insult my intelligence.

We all know it permanently alters the human body . No question.

12 hours ago, Justdry said:

Thought i'd give an update since I've now been back on Vitamin A for a few weeks.

Skin turnover seems vastly improved, wound healing is so much better than it was before, for the first time in years every little cut i get isn't turning into a scar. My face is now the best it's been in a long time, the redness from previous damage is still there but its nowhere near as bad as it's been, i feel a lot more confident now.

Further to this, I feel like i want to bang all the time lately, having not had much sex drive for around a year (i didn't have ED, just very low sex drive).

The only things i'm doing is VItamin C in a morning and 1 softgel of Cod Liver oil in the evening with Greek Yoghurt.

What particular brand supplement and how much vitamin A is in it if you dont mind sharing.
Cod liver oil also contains essential fatty acids and vitamin D so I'd like to know exactly how much vitamin a when considering this as well.
Vitamin A does have a stimulating effect, but for me then followed by a crash. In this regard it starts to sound similar to some other ideas floated around here regarding cycling or 5ar inhibitors. The same type of thing could be going on.

5 hours ago, Duperele said:

"your intelligence"? Accutane has a half-life of 20 hours which means that after 20 days there will be 0.0000001% percent of what you had from the beginning, and after 30 days there will be 0.000000000001% left, which means that if you even had 10 kg accutane in your body (you would be dead i know) you would have 0.0000001 grams or 0.1 mikrograms left in your body, which is nothing, you can do the math by yourself. And even if not, the body will take care of it as it is indeed a poision.

Isotretinoin is fat soluble and passes the brain barrier. The brain mostly consists of fat. I wouldnt be surprised if isotretinoin stays in our fat cells for many years.

Cholesterol: vitamin C controls its transformation to bile acids.

Cholesterol accumulates in the blood serum and in the liver of guinea pigs with chronic latent vitamin C deficiency. The reason for this is the decreased rate of transformation of cholesterol to bile acids in the liver of animals deficient in vitamin C. A significant direct correlation exists between the vitamin C concentration in the liver and the rate of cholesterol transformation to bile acids.

The role of ascorbic acid in the regulation of cholesterol metabolism and in the pathogenesis of artherosclerosis.

Strong clinical and experimental evidence suggests that chronic latent vitamin C deficiency leads to hypercholesterolaemia and the accumulation of cholesterol in certain tissues. Ascorbic acid supplementation of the diet of hypercholesterolaemic humans and animals generally results in a significant reduction in plasma cholesterol concentration. While most studies relating ascorbic acid to atherosclerosis have used the rabbit as a model, those concerned with elucidating the role of ascorbic acid in the regulation of cholesterol metabolism have generally used the guinea pig. Comparatively little use has been made of the non-human primates. A significant advance in recent years has been the development of a model of chronic latent scurvy in the guinea pig. Chronic dietary inadequacy of vitamin C may influence the pathogenesis of atherosclerosis as it affects not only plasma cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations but also the integrity of the vascular wall. Ascorbic acid is involved in the regulation of cholesterol metabolism in several ways. Dietary inadequacy of vitamin C is associated indirectly with a lowering of cholesterol absorption, this effect resulting from a reduction in the availability of bile acids, monoglycerides and fatty acids. The excretion of cholesterol as neutral steroids, however, appears not to be affected by ascorbic acid. Although much of the evidence for the involvement of ascorbic acid in cholesterol synthesis is equivocal, it seems likely that cholesterol synthesis is decreased in vitamin C deficiency. A series of studies using guinea pigs with chronic latent vitamin C deficiency has provided clear evidence that bile acid synthesis is reduced in this condition. Indirect evidence strongly suggests that this results from a decrease in the activity of the microsomal enzyme cholesterol 7 alpha-hydroxylase. However, some evidence suggests that the mitochondrial reactions of bile acid synthesis require ascorbic acid. The role of ascorbic acid in the regulation of steroidogenesis appears to involve selective inhibitory and stimulatory effects on the desmolase, hydroxylase and dehydrogenase reactions which lead to the formation of pregnenolone and its subsequent conversion to steroid hormones.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4685043
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/942515

Whats annoying is I would get partial symptomatic relief from the sexual sides taking low dose TRT type supps, , but my current dr took me off all that because my numbers look normal.

But as we know, its not about numbers with us.

Besides, what is wrong with treating symptoms rather than numbers anyway?

I responded, at least partially to minute doses of HCG and pregnenolone. New doc now says NO, it will shut you down. Not sure if I should source somewhere else, which I can, or just listen to his advice and treat it as psychiatric in cause, (I do also have depression but had zero of these effects before tane). This doesnt make it any easier to treat though.

1 hour ago, mikez said:

Whats annoying is I would get partial symptomatic relief from the sexual sides taking low dose TRT type supps, , but my current dr took me off all that because my numbers look normal.

But as we know, its not about numbers with us.

Besides, what is wrong with treating symptoms rather than numbers anyway?

I responded, at least partially to minute doses of HCG and pregnenolone. New doc now says NO, it will shut you down. Not sure if I should source somewhere else, which I can, or just listen to his advice and treat it as psychiatric in cause, (I do also have depression but had zero of these effects before tane). This doesnt make it any easier to treat though.

Yep, tests for the most part dont provide any answers.

Makes you wonder if we actually absorb things properly after tane, if weve all got a reasonably good diet and we supplement a few things and still get no change, is our gut health so bad that we just dont absorb all the good stuff correctly......wish I knew the answer

7 hours ago, draci said:

13 hours ago, Duperele said:

"your intelligence"? Accutane has a half-life of 20 hours which means that after 20 days there will be 0.0000001% percent of what you had from the beginning, and after 30 days there will be 0.000000000001% left, which means that if you even had 10 kg accutane in your body (you would be dead i know) you would have 0.0000001 grams or 0.1 mikrograms left in your body, which is nothing, you can do the math by yourself. And even if not, the body will take care of it as it is indeed a poision.

Isotretinoin is fat soluble and passes the brain barrier. The brain mostly consists of fat. I wouldnt be surprised if isotretinoin stays in our fat cells for many years.

Fat solubes passes the brain barrier yes, but by passive diffusion, which means that it will get it the brain as soonest as there is MORE of accutane in the blod than in the "brain", when the accutane is out of the blood, there is MORE accutane in the brain which means it will come back to the blood. Why in the heck would our bodies store stuff in our brains? Our bodies do not store any vitamins, or anything in the brain. Yes Accutane might affect the brain, but it's out of there as soonest at the blood levels of it drop. The same goes for alcohol, it passes to the brain the same way, but why would it ever be stored there?

13 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

What particular brand supplement and how much vitamin A is in it if you dont mind sharing.
Cod liver oil also contains essential fatty acids and vitamin D so I'd like to know exactly how much vitamin a when considering this as well.
Vitamin A does have a stimulating effect, but for me then followed by a crash. In this regard it starts to sound similar to some other ideas floated around here regarding cycling or 5ar inhibitors. The same type of thing could be going on. 
 

Its Tesco supermarkers own brand. See picture for nutritional info. 

10 hours ago, draci said:

16 hours ago, Duperele said:

"your intelligence"? Accutane has a half-life of 20 hours which means that after 20 days there will be 0.0000001% percent of what you had from the beginning, and after 30 days there will be 0.000000000001% left, which means that if you even had 10 kg accutane in your body (you would be dead i know) you would have 0.0000001 grams or 0.1 mikrograms left in your body, which is nothing, you can do the math by yourself. And even if not, the body will take care of it as it is indeed a poision.

Isotretinoin is fat soluble and passes the brain barrier. The brain mostly consists of fat. I wouldnt be surprised if isotretinoin stays in our fat cells for many years.

It could be stored for quite long- vitamin A is stored very long term potentially. But I think most of the damage is from when it's taken, and shortly after.

The damage we suffer after is mostly from that time.

After all, some effects are known to be permanent...

Maybe Duperele can explain to us how accutane works, since even Roche have no full idea after 30 years?

22 minutes ago, fiksi said:

It could be stored for quite long- vitamin A is stored very long term potentially. But I think most of the damage is from when it's taken, and shortly after.

The damage we suffer after is mostly from that time.

After all, some effects are known to be permanent...

Maybe Duperele can explain to us how accutane works, since even Roche have no full idea after 30 years?

I am just saying that it most likely leaves the body within some weeks/months. But the effects that are "known to be permanent" is something different. If you drink some methanol it will be gone from your body within some days, but the damage it has done while it was in the body will sustain for the rest of your life. If you let a gorilla run around in your house and wreck everything, And then kick it out, it won't matter that it's "out" from the house, the damage has been done. But accutane indeed leaves our bodies.

Why would I explain how it works?

https://skinutritious.com/blogs/articles/dying-for-clear-skin-the-dangerous-side-effects-of-accutane

31 minutes ago, Duperele said:

I am just saying that it most likely leaves the body within some weeks/months. But the effects that are "known to be permanent" is something different. If you drink some methanol it will be gone from your body within some days, but the damage it has done while it was in the body will sustain for the rest of your life. If you let a gorilla run around in your house and wreck everything, And then kick it out, it won't matter that it's "out" from the house, the damage has been done. But accutane indeed leaves our bodies.

Why would I explain how it works?

You are partially correct- I will take analogy with vitamin A.

Huge doses are stored long term, mostly in liver(possibly lungs and more). Even the measured dose in blood at the time is not the body level of vitamin A in complete. Example... if you are healthy, and eat huge amounts of cod liver, you could kill yourself from vitamin a poisoning.

Thus, the claim tane completely leaves the body(every tissue there is) quickly may be very wrong.

I am mostly in agreement with second claim. The damage does occur when tane is taken and shortly after, mostly... what we have later are simply manifestations of this damage. For example, the destruction of myobian gland could be such. This is often irreversible.

My last point was simply that we don't fully know what the drug alters and how it works.

33 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:

https://skinutritious.com/blogs/articles/dying-for-clear-skin-the-dangerous-side-effects-of-accutane

I have to be honest, diet could never completely help me... I noticed some things help, but nothing is resolution.

I am in severe doubt severe acne can be controlled all by diet, but one should try ALL before taking a cancer drug tane.

This is possibly how Accutane works and how it creates long term side effects. This needs to be looked into more.
There is possibly a scenario where Accutane greatly increased the synthesis of inactive Matrix gla protein, which is a significant risk factor for cardiovascular disease and all cause mortality. It might have also used up vitamin k2 in the process.

Retinoic acid induces matrix Gla protein gene expression in human cells.

I have severe doubts that isotretinoin is NATURALLY occurring in miniscule amounts found in the body , I think it's certainly NOT it is after all chemotherapy a man made chemical .

5 hours ago, Duperele said:

I am just saying that it most likely leaves the body within some weeks/months. But the effects that are "known to be permanent" is something different. If you drink some methanol it will be gone from your body within some days, but the damage it has done while it was in the body will sustain for the rest of your life. If you let a gorilla run around in your house and wreck everything, And then kick it out, it won't matter that it's "out" from the house, the damage has been done. But accutane indeed leaves our bodies.

Why would I explain how it works?

It basically permanently changes how your body functions , no question chronic dry eyes after tan exposure , facial skin feeling strange and tight almost synthetic in nature , joint pain years later , mental dips , it's hard on the liver one guy said oh it does MUCH more then that . After exposure you are dealing with symptom management end of story . You may not notice these things immediately after isotretinoin exposure but trust me side effects will make their way into your life down the road 5 , 10 , 20 years later as I have found out .

Most people only notice dryness sure the dumb ones , that would explain why rubbing your skin causes heart papulations years later , oh yeah sides are real after all as I have found out . Or they get severe lower back pain years later , that was fun .... linked YES it is you get the picture in the end honest derms will tell you , Accutane cures acne WITH side effects and we are worried about joint pain and depression in the long run , FACT . I would say more like mental dips or crashes , it is all linked after all .

How could a drug control acne for years ..... without changing how your body functions , NOT possible .

It has around a 60% chance of putting acne in permanent remission around that number and if you look like a BEAST this may sound appealing but there are consequences for this so called miracle pill ... after exposure I would recommend NOT to mess with your skin in any way or .... pay the price up to you again as I have found out . Avoiding saunas may be a good idea too unless you want to recycle tan symptoms , NOT a good idea.

26 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:

I have severe doubts that isotretinoin is NATURALLY occurring in miniscule amounts found in the body , I think it's certainly NOT it is after all chemotherapy a man made chemical .

It basically permanently changes how your body functions , no question chronic dry eyes after tan exposure , joint pain years later , mental dips , it's hard on the liver one guy said oh it does much more then that . After exposure you are dealing with symptom management end of story . You may not notice these things after isotretinoin exposure but trust me side effects will make their way into your life down the road 5 , 10 , 20 years later as I have found out .

How do you even know those side effects are related to accutane? 20 years later? it might just be because of bad health.

27 minutes ago, Duperele said:

54 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:

I have severe doubts that isotretinoin is NATURALLY occurring in miniscule amounts found in the body , I think it's certainly NOT it is after all chemotherapy a man made chemical .

It basically permanently changes how your body functions , no question chronic dry eyes after tan exposure , joint pain years later , mental dips , it's hard on the liver one guy said oh it does much more then that . After exposure you are dealing with symptom management end of story . You may not notice these things after isotretinoin exposure but trust me side effects will make their way into your life down the road 5 , 10 , 20 years later as I have found out .

How do you even know those side effects are related to accutane? 20 years later? it might just be because of bad health.

How do you think it controls acne ???? for decades in roughly 60% of people after a cycle , it does things in a permanent way .... let's just say it exacerbates things in the human body .

@fiksiEven during periods of extreme muscle weakness, nothing was flagged through testing. I came close to getting a muscle biopsy, but other than that, this is about the best I can look at this.

These are all through quest if you want to look at all the antibodies tested
MYOSITIS ASSESSR(TM) PLUS JO 1 ANTIBODY
All negative.
TESTOSTERONE, FREE,BIO AND TOTAL, LC/MS/MS
All in range. Testosterone is a little low when this was last taken for my age. I will retest this in the near future. its been as low as 485 and as high as in the 700s
HEPATITIS PANEL, ACUTE W/REFLEX TO CONFIRMATION
negative.
RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS DIAGNOSTIC PANEL 1
negative.
CREATINE KINASE, TOTAL
in range.
SED RATE BY MODIFIED WESTERGREN
in range.
ANA IFA SCREEN W/REFL TO TITER AND PATTERN, IFA
negative.
DNA (DS) ANTIBODY
SCL-70 ANTIBODY
SJOGREN'S ANTIBODIES (SS-A,SS-B)
PARVOVIRUS B-19 ANTIBODIES (IGG, IGM)
HLA-B27 ANTIGEN
CENTROMERE B ANTIBODY
RNP ANTIBODY
COMPLEMENT COMPONENT C3C
COMPLEMENT COMPONENT C4C
CORTISOL, A.M.
VITAMIN B12/FOLATE, SERUM PANEL
ALDOLASE
PROTEIN, TOTAL W/CREAT, RANDOM URINE
URINALYSIS REFLEX
^All good.
This is basically a full workup you would get at a rheumatologist.
I had alot of this even tested twice.

44 minutes ago, Gladiatoro said:

How do you think it controls acne ???? for decades in roughly 60% of people after a cycle , it does things in a permanent way .... let's just say it exacerbates things in the human body .

Exactly. If it permanently alters glands and acne mechanism, and is taken up by every organ in body- it likely makes other alerations, some permanent. This is simple logic.

Myobian gland death can be permanent, as tane induces forced cell death in this gland. This means, dry eyes.

Since we don't know how tane affects all organs and systems, the initial damage by it may just unmask later on.

7 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

@fiksiEven during periods of extreme muscle weakness, nothing was flagged through testing. I came close to getting a muscle biopsy, but other than that, this is about the best I can look at this.

These are all through quest if you want to look at all the antibodies tested
MYOSITIS ASSESSR(TM) PLUS JO 1 ANTIBODY
All negative.
TESTOSTERONE, FREE,BIO AND TOTAL, LC/MS/MS
All in range. Testosterone is a little low when this was last taken for my age. I will retest this in the near future. its been as low as 485 and as high as in the 700s
HEPATITIS PANEL, ACUTE W/REFLEX TO CONFIRMATION
negative.
RHEUMATOID ARTHRITIS DIAGNOSTIC PANEL 1
negative.
CREATINE KINASE, TOTAL
in range.
SED RATE BY MODIFIED WESTERGREN
in range.
ANA IFA SCREEN W/REFL TO TITER AND PATTERN, IFA
negative.
DNA (DS) ANTIBODY
SCL-70 ANTIBODY
SJOGREN'S ANTIBODIES (SS-A,SS-B)
PARVOVIRUS B-19 ANTIBODIES (IGG, IGM)
HLA-B27 ANTIGEN
CENTROMERE B ANTIBODY
RNP ANTIBODY
CORTISOL, A.M.
VITAMIN B12/FOLATE, SERUM PANEL
ALDOLASE
PROTEIN, TOTAL W/CREAT, RANDOM URINE
URINALYSIS REFLEX
^All good.
This is basically a full workup you would get at a rheumatologist.

Thank you very much for this post mate- I will get some testing done as well. The extreme weakness seems to be reversing though, directly related with cessation of accutane.

Have you done EMG on the muscles? There were severe cases of myositis in tane, where CK was still normal level(vascular pathway or something it was called).

10 minutes ago, fiksi said:

dry eyes.

The acetylcholine ganglionic antibody I mentioned can cause dry eyes and dry mouth. This falls more in line with autonomic function that could be regulated outside of the specific tissue.
Also I dont know if those eye floaters are eye floaters in the traditional sense.
Anyone actually had their floaters confirmed by a opthamologist ?

8 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

17 minutes ago, fiksi said:

dry eyes.

The acetylcholine ganglionic antibody I mentioned can cause dry eyes and dry mouth. This falls more in line with autonomic function that could be regulated outside of the specific tissue.

This is something to inspect, but accutane also does agressively attack the meibomian gland and causes cell death there. This effect can be permanent, and then you simply have less fluid, so eyes are dry.

In just one gland, Accutane altered 6000 genes!

"

Conclusions.

Exposure to 13-cisRA inhibits cell proliferation, increases cell death, alters gene expression, changes signaling pathways, and promotes inflammatory mediator and protease expression in meibomian gland epithelial cells. These effects may be responsible, at least in part, for the 13-cisRArelated induction of MGD.

We found that 13-cisRA inhibited cell proliferation, induced cell death, and significantly altered the expression of 6726 genes, including those involved in cell proliferation, cell death, differentiation, keratinization, and inflammation, in human meibomian gland epithelial cells. Further, 13-cisRA also reduced the phosphorylation of Akt and increased the generation of interleukin-1 and matrix metallopeptidase 9.

"