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12 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?Who's field of expertise is that?
If the answer is you can't well..........
METHODS:
Patients undergoing transurethral resection of the prostate and either treated or not treated with finasteride between 2004 and 2010 at the University of Wisconsin-Hospital were retrospectively identified using an institutional database. Prostate specimens from each patient were triple-stained for androgen receptor, prostate-specific antigen, and basal marker cytokeratin 5. Morphometric analysis was performed using the multispectral imaging, and results were compared between groups of finasteride treated and non-treated patients.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24789081
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Unless you're part of a study, or insanely rich, you pretty much can't.
^there is a scenario for a study that involves accutane, finasteride and ssri's, I've already been thinking about this. This would coordinate with what the rxrisk website has going on right now.
Also to be clear about my thoughts about taking fin to fix sides. I think its bullshit. I think its a made up theory. My question is where did this originally spawn from? Dr. Pezzi? I can discredit him.
Some days I think I dont need anymore tests, I just have chronic cellular dehydration end of story.
If Im being honest, nothing in the last 20 years has given me back the hydration I once had, not one supplement, no diet, no amount of water...nothing.
Ive argued this with my kinesiologist who is a very smart guy, he says the cells replace every 7-8 years.....
For me, all I know is how I feel, the dryness I constantly experience etc.
Sure we can look into the repercussions of this cellular dehydration but will we ever get to fix this problem??
2 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?Who's field of expertise is that?
If the answer is you can't well..........
Im pretty positive there was a Propecia thread rebuttaling the whole AR Mutation theory. If it is a receptor problem then we should just say fuck it because as of right now, there is no way around that. I honestly dont know what to believe anymore. This is so individualized its crazy. For instance... my beard/body hair may grow a little slower but it still grows? How could that be a receptor problem if I can still grow a damn beard? Slow beard/body hair growth has also been a symptom of plain old hypogonadism in several cases.
49 minutes ago, Colinboko said:3 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Ok, and with that in mind how can we test receptor response?Who's field of expertise is that?
If the answer is you can't well..........
Im pretty positive there was a Propecia thread rebuttaling the whole AR Mutation theory. If it is a receptor problem then we should just say fuck it because as of right now, there is no way around that. I honestly dont know what to believe anymore. This is so individualized its crazy. For instance... my beard/body hair may grow a little slower but it still grows? How could that be a receptor problem if I can still grow a damn beard? Slow beard/body hair growth has also been a symptom of plain old hypogonadism in several cases.
I agree, it's like what the fuck can you do about the receptors? Keep in mind though that I'm partly asking that question in view of all this hormone testing we've all done and continue to do, myself included, like we're stuck in this loop of trying to get answers that way when deep down I think it's obvious the receptors are screwed.
I got estrogen along with other stuff tested yesterday but what am I expecting next week when I go back to my GP? Some groundbreaking result that pinpoints something......hardly, the best thing I can hope for is that my cholesterol has lowered and that might allow us to go somewhere other than "I think you should go on medication"...... no thanks!!
I just don't have the guts to experiment with drugs like Finasteride, just can't do it. The only thing at the moment I'm willing to take is Pariet for reflux, that's it for prescription drugs.
5 hours ago, TrueJustice said:I agree, it's like what the fuck can you do about the receptors? Keep in mind though that I'm partly asking that question in view of all this hormone testing we've all done and continue to do, myself included, like we're stuck in this loop of trying to get answers that way when deep down I think it's obvious the receptors are screwed.I got estrogen along with other stuff tested yesterday but what am I expecting next week when I go back to my GP? Some groundbreaking result that pinpoints something......hardly, the best thing I can hope for is that my cholesterol has lowered and that might allow us to go somewhere other than "I think you should go on medication"...... no thanks!!
I just don't have the guts to experiment with drugs like Finasteride, just can't do it. The only thing at the moment I'm willing to take is Pariet for reflux, that's it for prescription drugs.
Accutane acts like a progestin (a class of drugs which are also used for chemical castration - no surprise there..) and it's leaving progesterone receptors in the body either unregulated or down regulated once you stop taking the drug. The receptor theory was speculated upon some time ago by the PFS guys, but it increasingly looks like they were right. More recently they've been speculating on some people being left with them up or down regulated - again it makes sense that there are 2 or more types of PFS/post-accutane etc. Again, some people had speculated about this before some time ago, I remember reading a guy on about this.
The aim is a re or de sensitise the receptors so the body can find it's homeostasis again, and use hormones property. That's why people have tried taking anti-progesterones like RU486. This reduces progesterone, so should up regulate down-regulated receptors in theory, and once you stop taking you are then in theory more sensitive to that hormone etc. Some people have had lasting benefits on hack stasis, but not to the extent of being 'recovered', but I think progress is being made.
Taking a simplistic approach and just getting bloods done and trying to increase what is low is not helping. and may make the situation worse.
It's not known why some people get stuck with up or down regulated receptors though, if this theory is correct, maybe genetics leaving some susceptible. Once that is known you could do studies on rats or whatever, but if you tried now you wouldn't know whether they would be left with side effects or not.
1 hour ago, tanedout said:Accutane acts like a progestin (a class of drugs which are also used for chemical castration - no surprise there..) and it's leaving progesterone receptors in the body either unregulated or down regulated once you stop taking the drug. The receptor theory was speculated upon some time ago by the PFS guys, but it increasingly looks like they were right. More recently they've been speculating on some people being left with them up or down regulated - again it makes sense that there are 2 or more types of PFS/post-accutane etc. Again, some people had speculated about this before some time ago, I remember reading a guy on about this.The aim is a re or de sensitise the receptors so the body can find it's homeostasis again, and use hormones property. That's why people have tried taking anti-progesterones like RU486. This reduces progesterone, so should up regulate down-regulated receptors in theory, and once you stop taking you are then in theory more sensitive to that hormone etc. Some people have had lasting benefits on hack stasis, but not to the extent of being 'recovered', but I think progress is being made.
Taking a simplistic approach and just getting bloods done and trying to increase what is low is not helping. and may make the situation worse.
It's not known why some people get stuck with up or down regulated receptors though, if this theory is correct, maybe genetics leaving some susceptible. Once that is known you could do studies on rats or whatever, but if you tried now you wouldn't know whether they would be left with side effects or not.
Sources of it acting as a progestin ???
7 hours ago, TrueJustice said:I agree, it's like what the fuck can you do about the receptors? Keep in mind though that I'm partly asking that question in view of all this hormone testing we've all done and continue to do, myself included, like we're stuck in this loop of trying to get answers that way when deep down I think it's obvious the receptors are screwed.I got estrogen along with other stuff tested yesterday but what am I expecting next week when I go back to my GP? Some groundbreaking result that pinpoints something......hardly, the best thing I can hope for is that my cholesterol has lowered and that might allow us to go somewhere other than "I think you should go on medication"...... no thanks!!
I just don't have the guts to experiment with drugs like Finasteride, just can't do it. The only thing at the moment I'm willing to take is Pariet for reflux, that's it for prescription drugs.
The thing is, most guys on our forum havent experimented with TRT anyways... so we wouldnt know if its receptors or not! Thats what Im saying. The whole receptor theory is a tough one to prove. Like I said, wouldnt a receptor issue cause things like body hair growth to completely stop?
My friend, I practice bodybuilding at 5 years, and I'm 3 in this accutane disgrace, about 4 months ago before I started thinking about this finasteride trial, I took 500 mg of testosterone per week for 10 weeks and 90 mg oxandrolone (dht derivative) for 6 weeks together, one thing I felt was a small, small even, increase in libido and muscle strength / size, as I already have a well developed body and it was my first time with hormones it was for me to have felt much more effects for the dosage and for being the first time my body had contact with hormones, then after that I started to believe even more that our receptors are fucked, since I was with almost 4.000 ng/dl free testosterone in the blood (I did tests to check) and I felt practically nothing different, that is, the level does not matter if its receptors are fucked to give the answer to the level of the hormone
I am using finasteride now to test, if it is receptors sensitivity I will have an improvement when I leave it, relax that we will find out, I will use it for about 28 to 30 days, I think I am at day 15 today
2 hours ago, Colinboko said:4 hours ago, tanedout said:Accutane acts like a progestin (a class of drugs which are also used for chemical castration - no surprise there..) and it's leaving progesterone receptors in the body either unregulated or down regulated once you stop taking the drug. The receptor theory was speculated upon some time ago by the PFS guys, but it increasingly looks like they were right. More recently they've been speculating on some people being left with them up or down regulated - again it makes sense that there are 2 or more types of PFS/post-accutane etc. Again, some people had speculated about this before some time ago, I remember reading a guy on about this.The aim is a re or de sensitise the receptors so the body can find it's homeostasis again, and use hormones property. That's why people have tried taking anti-progesterones like RU486. This reduces progesterone, so should up regulate down-regulated receptors in theory, and once you stop taking you are then in theory more sensitive to that hormone etc. Some people have had lasting benefits on hack stasis, but not to the extent of being 'recovered', but I think progress is being made.
Taking a simplistic approach and just getting bloods done and trying to increase what is low is not helping. and may make the situation worse.
It's not known why some people get stuck with up or down regulated receptors though, if this theory is correct, maybe genetics leaving some susceptible. Once that is known you could do studies on rats or whatever, but if you tried now you wouldn't know whether they would be left with side effects or not.
Sources of it acting as a progestin ???
Progestins are anti-androgens - and as we already know accurate is an anti-androgen;
In addition to their progestogenic activity, some progestins areantagonistsof theandrogen receptorand can be used therapeutically asanti androgens( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progestin ) ->Antiandrogens, also known asandrogen antagonistsortestosterone blockers, are a class ofdrugswhich preventandrogensliketestosteroneanddihydrotestosterone(DHT) from mediating theirbiological effectsin the body. They act byblockingtheandrogen receptor(AR) and/orinhibitingorsuppressingandrogenproduction.[1][2]Antiandrogens are one of three types ofsex hormoneantagonists, the others beingantiestrogensandantiprogestogens. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiandrogen )
there is additional evidence for the antiandrogenic effects of isotretinoin. Regarding substances acting on both levels, androgen receptor binding and 5 alpha-reductaseinhibitor ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9557251 )
@namelk why do your posts always look so weird?
Edit - I mean the formatting
3 hours ago, namelk said:I am using finasteride now to test, if it is receptors sensitivity I will have an improvement when I leave it, relax that we will find out, I will use it for about 28 to 30 days, I think I am at day 15 today
Good luck. So the question is if there is a rebound effect does this dissipate, return to baseline and become even more suppressed requiring another cycle and the process repeats to where you are requiring more and more cycling.
Also if there is a possibility that finasteride simultaneously antagonizes vitamin k processes when its inhibiting the androgen receptor, more might be affected than just hormones.
On 12/13/2017 at 6:43 PM, ailaeshiz said:I think its the androgenic receptors that are messed up. They refuse to interact with available DHT the way they're supposed to.
You could take this a step further and include all steroid receptors. This includes estrogen, corticosteroids and progestogens. Maybe their metabolism as well.
12 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:You could take this a step further and include all steroid receptors. This includes estrogen, corticosteroids and progestogens. Maybe their metabolism as well.
Which of course raises another question: why the hell can't our receptors remember how to function properly?
2 hours ago, macleod said:
Is this good for receptors or just a maintenance product as we wait to see where to go next with receptors?
Also what does this product do that hemp oil doesnt?
5 minutes ago, ailaeshiz said:18 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:You could take this a step further and include all steroid receptors. This includes estrogen, corticosteroids and progestogens. Maybe their metabolism as well.Which of course raises another question: why the hell can't our receptors remember how to function properly?
If youre like me and have chronic cellular dehydration, that applies to receptors too yeah?
Could that be why our receptors dont function correctly? Theyre severely dried out....
@TrueJustice sure, but then why are they dried out?
37 minutes ago, ailaeshiz said:@TrueJustice sure, but then why are they dried out?
Not exactly sure other than to say Accutane works to clean up acne by drying out the sebaceous glands ( how I don't know ) dries out everything basically, obviously that might include things you dont want dried out like your brain for example and hypothalamus etc.
We now know that's the wrong approach, I should've fixed up diet, reduce sugar and diary etc before even thinking about Accutane, you'd think this would be offered by a dermatologist who knows their stuff yeah..... unfortunately not.
I had mildish acne from say 15 to 22, you just don't want it anymore obviously but even at 22 you don't have all the available knowledge and you just trust your doctor and the process, here I am at 42 still dealing with the decisions I've made around acne......it's fucking pathetic to be honest.
Anyway I digress..... I'd take the oily version of myself back any day of the week that's for sure.
21 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Some days I think I dont need anymore tests, I just have chronic cellular dehydration end of story.
If Im being honest, nothing in the last 20 years has given me back the hydration I once had, not one supplement, no diet, no amount of water...nothing.
Ive argued this with my kinesiologist who is a very smart guy, he says the cells replace every 7-8 years.....
For me, all I know is how I feel, the dryness I constantly experience etc.Sure we can look into the repercussions of this cellular dehydration but will we ever get to fix this problem??
jesus christ youre 42!? wtf was ur dose and how long were u on??
have you tried increasing sodium and carb intake ?
im talking in the range of 30+ grams of salt a day
45 minutes ago, pimple pimp said:jesus christ youre 42!? wtf was ur dose and how long were u on??have you tried increasing sodium and carb intake ?
im talking in the range of 30+ grams of salt a day
Correct 42, I was all taned out while many of you were probably still in dippers.
There are people older than me who are taned out too, remember its been on the market since 1982.
One of the old forums from 12 years ago had a 65 year old victim.
The body just doesnt hold moisture properly after tane, I sweat like nobodys business, as if my skin is super thin - it probably is along with the thin hair etc, collagen is all fucked up I think.
I can live with this though, the chemo brain and the fatigue are the things Id like to overcome, if I can get those receptors working again Im hoping thats the key!!
Sorry, I'm Brazilian and I depend on a translator to talk to you correctly.
I do not know why this text format problem is occurring, I type what I want to talk about and I copy and paste it in the forum and I can not hit the lines, but it seems that now it has knocked out kkkk, I believe it is some problem here of my computer service,I'm coming on vacation from my service tomorrow, I'll stay for 1 month, I'll have more time to talk and be calmer with the use of finasteride
on the talk of progestin and progesterone, vitamin A is what makes progesterone through zinc and several other minerals
accutane is large amount of vitamin A in its final form which is retinoic acid, it ignores all the metabolic processes of your body and simply already goes to the final route, thus making progesterone, either an example I will give you:
A large majority while using accutane felt extremely well because the neurotransmitters dopamine and serotonin increased greatly as they are partly dependent on progesterone and the moment you have plenty of vitamin a every day to the extreme around 40 to 80 mg of accutane per several months.
while I was taking accutane I remember, I felt very good, very much, an amazing well-being, self esteem, etc. until I got the libido problems and when I stopped taking all other problems start ...
then probably we who take accutane (vitamin A high dose) have insensitive progesterone receptors as we greatly increase it for a while depending on vitamin A, and now your body does not have too much vitamin A through accutane and is locked with insensitive receptors and you is with all progesterone-dependent hormonal deregulation affecting the functions of various minerals and hormones in the body and it directly affects DHT
Finasteride acts by inhibiting the enzyme 5 alpha reductase and it seems that it can also act as a progestin, through potassium in its cell, its progesterone rises or falls based on potassium also, there are several ways to affect several hormones, which may be why Finasteride has cured some guys because it can make you sensitive to progesterone / DHT
Let's pray that it works for me and for those who use it
I believe that if we had reduced the dosage of accutane about 10 mg every month by time we would not have caught up with this syndrome and those problems, which may have fucked us up is stopped at once only taking high dosage
my brother took accutane for 10 months, 20 mg and then reduced to 10 and he has no problem more than 5 years later, I also took it because of him, however my doctor prescribed me twice the dose, I had lots of acne
38 minutes ago, namelk said:I believe that if we had reduced the dosage of accutane about 10 mg every month by time we would not have caught up with this syndrome and those problems, which may have fucked us up is stopped at once only taking high dosage
my brother took accutane for 10 months, 20 mg and then reduced to 10 and he has no problem more than 5 years later, I also took it because of him, however my doctor prescribed me twice the dose, I had lots of acne
So you think that people may have been able to avoid getting stuck with side effects if they tapered the dosage when stopping, to let the receptors re-adjust? Like going from 20mg, then 10mg then 5mg etc?