2 hours ago, Colinboko said:

Interesting read right here...

https://chriskresser.com/is-depression-a-disease-or-a-symptom-of-inflammation/

Could really be be onto something.

I mean how many people have even experimented with prednisone? Elohel? That's one. And he was back to his normal self almost instantly. And then maybe one other dude tried hydrocortisone a while back. If you've tried prednisone and it didn't do anything for you please speak up. But I really think we are dealing with full on systemic inflammation.

The link between depression and inflammation is very interesting. Fish oil, for example, has recently gained traction for its potential to alleviate different psychiatric problems. However, it's hard to draw any conclusions based on how one responds to prednisone. Prednisone is well-known to induce euphoria in people. Bipolar patients who take it may enter a manic state. The World Anti-Doping Agency actually banned Olympic participants from using the drug because athletes can use it for a boost. My point being, I am skeptical that one's response to prednisone tells us much, since even a perfectly healthy person could get a mood boost from it.

Even if a positive mood response to prednisone was indicative of something medically significant, the drug has big drawbacks. If used long-term, it can cause multi-organ problems, like teeth and bone issues. In the comment section of the article you just linked, a parent said her daughter developed persistent depression after using it nine months to treat Crohns. So it seems prednisone successfully treated the Crohns's, but depression developed (trading one inflammatory issue for another?).

If the goal is to combat inflammation, good supplementation starting points would be Curcumin, fish oil, and low-dose Naltrexone, in addition to an elimination diet. For me, low-dose Naltrexone addressed the IBS, but psychiatric issues remained. It's all trial and error, as we all know.

19 minutes ago, ACCUiTy_drANE said:

The link between depression and inflammation is very interesting. Fish oil, for example, has recently gained traction for its potential to alleviate different psychiatric problems. However, it's hard to draw any conclusions based on how one responds to prednisone. Prednisone is well-known to induce euphoria in people. Bipolar patients who take it may enter a manic state. The World Anti-Doping Agency actually banned Olympic participants from using the drug because athletes can use it for a boost. My point being, I am skeptical that one's response to prednisone tells us much, since even a perfectly healthy person could get a mood boost from it.

Even if a positive mood response to prednisone was indicative of something medically significant, the drug has big drawbacks. If used long-term, it can cause multi-organ problems, like teeth and bone issues. In the comment section of the article you just linked, a parent said her daughter developed persistent depression after using it nine months to treat Crohns. So it seems prednisone successfully treated the Crohns's, but depression developed (trading one inflammatory issue for another?).

If the goal is to combat inflammation, good supplementation starting points would be Curcumin, fish oil, and low-dose Naltrexone, in addition to an elimination diet. For me, low-dose Naltrexone addressed the IBS, but psychiatric issues remained. It's all trial and error, as we all know.

I agree with everything you're saying! It would definitely be scary to take long term, but I remember reading several PFS sufferers having great results from it. And I know that it has also cured several CFS sufferers as well. I definitely have been having some vocal cord swelling/inflammation and I'm professional performer so vocal issues are an absolute NO GO. I'm going to try maybe a 3-5 day taper and see if I feel ANY benefits. Who's to say it can't turn something around permanently for us if taken at the proper dose for the proper time?

The weird correlation between ehohel and I is that we both agree neither of us have gotten sick with the flu or stomach bug or anything since the onset of our symptoms. Minus constant sneezing (certainly caused by inflammation). I also used to get tonsil stones all the time before all of this shit hit.. tonsil stones are caused by excess bacteria in the mouth that eventually expand back to the tonsils and calcify. But clearly my immune system is so nuts that it's killing everything and anything that enters my body.

On 5/17/2017 at 1:04 PM, mariovitali said:

@tanedout
The worse one i believe is CYP7A1 - rs8192877, Risk is G . Do you have high Cholesterol by the way?

Thanks Mario, Im having some blood tests next week and I think serum cholesterol will be one, but if not I will request this.

I think its not hard to see how this gene defect could cause many issues, and for my case Ive already had cholesterol in the gallbladder show up on an ultrasound (it had gone on a subsequent ultrasound, and Ive got another booked for June). Looking at some studies;

Quote

Bile acid synthesis plays a critical role in the maintenance of mammalian cholesterol homeostasis. The CYP7A1 gene encodes the enzyme cholesterol 7-hydroxylase, which catalyzes the initial step in cholesterol catabolism and bile acid synthesis.

Analysis of a liver biopsy and stool from one of these subjects revealed double the normal hepatic cholesterol content, a markedly deficient rate of bile acid excretion, and evidence for upregulation of the alternative bile acid pathway.

We hypothesized that a deficiency of CYP7A1 would cause a decrease in bile acid production and accumulation of cholesterol in the liver, leading to downregulation of LDL receptors and consequent hypercholesterolemia. The magnitude of this effect would depend on the extent to which the alternative bile acid pathway could overcome the lack of CYP7A1. Another element of the phenotype of CYP7A1 deficiency might be susceptibility to cholesterol gallstones due to inability to solubilize cholesterol in bile salt mixed micelles.

The excretion of fecal bile acids was markedly deficient compared with a control sample.The total amount was 94% lower than the control.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC151029/

In the following study, a methionine/choline deficient (MCD) diet is used to down regulate CYP7A1, so you would have to assume a diet high in methionine and choline would up regulate it? This seems to tie in with the 8 tips to repairing accutane video where they suggest choline from soy lecithin (as well as bile acids, and chinese bitters to increase bile acid production). Also Mario was able to recover from his sides with choline, and TUDCA (which is essentially bile acids). So in both cases they may have unregulated CYP7A1 and increased bile acid production

Quote

Cholesterol 7-hydroxylase (CYP7A1) is the rate-limiting enzyme in the bile acid biosynthetic pathway in the liver and controls cholesterol and bile acid homeostasis. Accumulation of toxic bile acids in liver causes cholestasis and inflammatory liver injury.

reduced bile acid pool increased susceptibility to MCD diet-induced hepatic inflammation and fibrosis. Maintaining bile acid homeostasis is important in protection against liver injury and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.

[Edited link out]

So has anyone tried taking the following things;

• Choline (potentially from Soy Lecithin)
• Methinione
• Bile acids
• TUDCA (or UDCA)

Ive tried all the above separately (other than methionine), and already take soy lecithin daily (only started recently after recurrence of gallbladder issues) but once Ive had my blood tests next week Im going to get on the methionine, jarrow bile acid factors and then TUDCA.

just got this blood test today. It talks mostly about detecting cancer, but it is used for other auto immune detection as well.
From mayo's website:

Are there other autoimmune conditions, besides those discussed in the presentation, that can cause dysautonomia? Are there other tests that can be done to objectively confirm or rule-out these conditions as well?

Autoimmune dysautonomia can coexist with other autoimmune diseases, such as type 1 DM, hypothyroidism, lupus etc. The testing described is appropriate for those patients also.

Test ID: DYS1
Autoimmune Dysautonomia Evaluation, Serum

[Edited link out]

Also going to be getting a intrinsic factor blood test, just in case.

Isotretinoin is a highly effective medication against acne; it can, however, decrease systemic vitamin B₁₂levels by a mechanism that remains unclear but which may be related to decreased absorption of the nutrient.

still waiting on Ammonia blood test which may show liver abnormalities, build up of toxins that could affect the brain.
Still waiting on osteocalcin blood testThat may detect k2 deficiency or any bone growth/turnover abnormalities.
If all these are normal will get bile acids serum test to check if anything abnormal might be going on.

How drugs interfere with bile salt metabolism
It is difficult to recognize off-target drug effects, leading to delays in diagnosis and predisposing patients to additional harms. Key components in the formulation of the correct diagnosis include the temporal sequence of events. The sentinel injury may target the gut and brain because of common intermediary metabolites and neuroactive substrates. The description of the complaint may vary among practitioners. The biggest issue in recognizing off target drug effects is to consider the possibility.

Keywords: off target drug effects; neurotoxicity; p-glycoprotein; farnesoid X; bile salt metabolism; pharmacovigilance

[Edited link out]

Serum bilirubin levels are elevated in virtually all patients with cholestasis.

It looks like a simple bilirubin test could determine any sort of issue with bile flow. My last test was normal.

Cholestasisis defined as a decrease in bile flow due to impaired secretion by hepatocytes or to obstruction of bile flow through intra-or extrahepatic bile ducts. Therefore, the clinical definition ofcholestasisis any condition in which substances normally excreted into bile are retained.

@guitarman01Yeah my bilirubin tested ok too (middle of range), but I'm having this test again this week.

That defect would cause a build up of cholesterol in the liver as your bile acid is not able to effectively dissolve the cholesterol in the bile acid. One consequence would be an increased susceptibility to cholesterol gallstones, and I've already had cholesterol show up in the liver.

Have you done a 23andme btw?If so when you search the raw data forrs8192877 (CYP7A1), are you an increased risk?

7 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

Serum bilirubin levels are elevated in virtually all patients with cholestasis.

It looks like a simple bilirubin test could determine any sort of issue with bile flow. My last test was normal.

Cholestasisis defined as a decrease in bile flow due to impaired secretion by hepatocytes or to obstruction of bile flow through intra-or extrahepatic bile ducts. Therefore, the clinical definition ofcholestasisis any condition in which substances normally excreted into bile are retained.

I am most likely suffering from Isotretinoin-induced cholestasis. I am unable to digest fat (and fructose) ever since I swallowed first 20 mg pill (7 years ago!). Shortly after I started my low dose course I've noticed increased frequency of yellow bowel movements (particularlyafter consuming a high-fat meal). Liver function tests showed elevated bilirubin levels, while other liver enzymes were within the norm. I have tried probiotics, digestive enzymes, liver supplements... nothing helped.

On 5/20/2017 at 4:46 PM, tanedout said:

rs8192877 (CYP7A1), are you an increased risk?

yes. I am GG, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of data on this. Like what's the frequency in the general population?

Here are more test to diagnosis cholestasis, or to rule this out.

The fundamental building blocks of all cell membranes are phospholipids. Lecithin consists of phospholipids such as phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylethanolamine, phosphatidylinositol, Phosphatidic acid, other minor phospholipids and glycolipids. About 50% of the mass of most cell membranes are composed of phospholipids. The plasma membranes of cells also contain glycolipids and cholesterol which correspond to about 40% of the total lipid molecules. Adequate intake of phospholipids and glycolipids is important for the integrity of the cell membranes. Lecithin contains a balanced amount of phospholipids and glycolipids.

Phospholipid supplementation has also been shown to help with mitochondrial dysfunction in patients with diseases such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, chronic Lyme Disease, Fibromyalgia, and Gulf War Illness.Fatigue reduced about 40%in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients after lipid replacement therapy (supplementing phospholipids) according to theJournal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

Antiphospholipid Syndrome (or Hughes syndrome) is an autoimmune condition that can lead to hypercoagulation and blood clots. Conditions such as Lupus, Sjogrens syndrome, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and Fibromyalgia are often associated with antiphospholipid antibodies. Antiphospholipid antibodies can even develop in presence of chronic infections such as Hepatitis C, Syphilis, Chlamydia pneumoniae, EBV, HHV-6, Lyme disease, mycoplasma, Q Fever, and many other infections. Antiphospholipid syndrome can be tested for with [Edited link out]

Antiphospholipid Syndrome
A disorder in which the immune system mistakenly attacks normal proteins in the blood.

At this time there is insufficient evidence to determine if supplementing lecithin would be beneficial or harmful for those with acetylcholine receptor autoantibodies or antiphospholipid syndrome. More clinical research is needed to understand how lecithin supplementation influences the various autoimmune processes that may exist in these patients.

19 hours ago, tanedout said:

So has anyone tried taking the following things;

• Choline (potentially from Soy Lecithin)
• Methinione
• Bile acids
• TUDCA (or UDCA)

 

I wouldnt supplement Methionine , it can actually harm the methylation cycle. excess is harmful in other ways as well. Id supplement lecithin over choline.
Unfortunately all of this has been done and thought of to death since day 1, so idk what's new?

here is this test right here. I'll try to get this as well.
http://www.questdiagnostics.com/testcenter/TestDetail.action?ntc=14890

here is just one study showing lecithin being a good thing, and possibly even a causative factor in lupus through methyl donor loss.

Metabolic Disturbances Associated with Systemic Lupus Erythematosus

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0037210

Abstract

The metabolic disturbances that underlie systemic lupus erythematosus are currently unknown. A metabolomic study was executed,
comparing the sera of 20 SLE patients against that of healthy controls, using LC/MS and GC/MS platforms. Validation of key differences was performed using an independent cohort of 38 SLE patients and orthogonal assays. SLE sera showed evidence of profoundly dampened glycolysis, Krebs cycle, fatty acid oxidation and amino acid metabolism, alluding to reduced energy biogenesis from all sources. Whereas long-chain fatty acids, including the n3 and n6 essential fatty acids, were significantly reduced, medium chain fatty acids and serum free fatty acids were elevated. The SLE metabolome exhibited profound lipid peroxidation, reflective of oxidative damage. Deficiencies were noted in the cellular anti-oxidant, glutathione, and all methyl group donors, including cysteine, methionine, and choline, as well as phosphocholines. The best discriminators of SLE included elevated lipid peroxidation products, MDA, gamma-glutamyl peptides, GGT, leukotriene B4 and 5-HETE. Importantly, similar elevations were not observed in another chronic inflammatory autoimmune disease, rheumatoid arthritis. To sum, comprehensive profiling of the SLE metabolome reveals evidence of heightened oxidative stress, inflammation, reduced energy generation, altered lipid profiles and a pro-thrombotic state. Resetting the SLE metabolome, either by targeting selected molecules or by supplementing the diet with essential fatty acids, vitamins and methyl group donors offers novel opportunities for disease modulation in this disabling systemic autoimmune ailment.

On 2017-05-18 at 2:41 AM, Colinboko said:

Have you been tested for any autoimmune issues? Folliculitis is inflammation of the hair follicles...

Could explain your hairloss and bowel issues...

I haven't been tested for autommune issues but probably should. I just have other tests that I'm more eager to have done first. I just need to take a break from spending so much on trying to treat these side effects before I can afford all the tests I want.

On 2017-05-18 at 9:25 PM, Washer said:

You should read up on LDN and opt. your doctor(s) for trying it out. The symptoms which you describe in terms of your bowel and liver health is things that LDN specifically helps out with. In my opinion you are a prime candidate. Get on it as soon as possible.

For thefolliculitis and acne try out a carb free paleo diet (ketogenic paleo) for a week and see if it helps you out.

I've been thinking of LDN for years and much more so lately because of my colitis diagnosis. There's exactly one doctor here in Toronto who supposedly prescribes it so I'll probably try to get an appointment with them.

What I also like about LDN is it's supposed to be good for treating Multiple Sclerosis which I feel I may have. I always like finding a supplement or drug that can potentially solve multiple problems.

Phosphatidylcholine is not the same as polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC). PPC is actually listed in the Physicians Desk Reference of the United States and it is an approved treatment in many European countries for chronic liver disease. Others who would benefit from PPC include those who have Hepatitis C (but not Hepatitis B), liver cirrhosis or impaired liver function, pancreatitis or NSAID-induced gastritis and ulceration. Research suggests that PPCs protection may extend from the liver to the stomach, pancreas and cardiovascular system.

Looking into this^

28 minutes ago, Recreant said:

Multiple Sclerosis which I feel I may have

I hopefully doubt you have this, but I believe we can experience very similar types of symptoms.
I would def get tested for this though( MRI,Spinal MRI) if you are concerned. the longer you wait without treatment, the worse it can get.

Random.
These findings identify an LRH-1 dependent phosphatidylcholine signalling pathway that regulates bile acid metabolism

Some other things to note in the past couple weeks of experimenting on myself:

Oil of Oregano has seemingly reduced my Accutane induced Seborrheic Dermatitis on my nose and cheek area by like 60% after just three days. Although it could be from something else but Oil of Oregano is the only new supplement I've introduced lately.

Ox Bile and pancreatic enzyme supplements seem to have had no effect on my stool over the past two weeks that I've tried them. My stool still has a tendency to float and is most often a yellowish color. I find that odd.

I continue to gauge my seeming fructose malabsorption. I've been eating mostly raspberries and some strawberries and, even though they are considered low fructose, I've noticed I have to be pretty careful about the amount I eat. Going to try eating a lot less today and see how it goes.

18 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

I hopefully doubt you have this, but I believe we can experience very similar types of symptoms.
I would def get tested for this though( MRI,Spinal MRI) if you are concerned. the longer you wait without treatment, the worse it can get.

Yeah, It's a test I plan to have done. The reason I think it's real MS and not some Accutane-related thing is that I sustained what appeared to be a classic MS attack after ingesting a lot of L-Glutamine. L-Glutamine is something that would increase the brain damage in someone with MS and I doubt it would have the same effect if my symptoms were of Accutane origin.

Something else I'd like to add to my list of side effects that I totally forgot about: emotional deadening.

Ever since Accutane I tend to have what people would call a stern, emotionless presence. Now, it's not that I lack emotions, but I have a lot of trouble expressing them, even when I really try.

The first time I noticed it was when I was at a hairdresser after about 6 months of Accutane. I wasn't really looking at myself in the mirror much at all while having my hair cut because acne had triggered body dysmorphic disorder in me and so staring at myself in a mirror with other people around wasn't something I tended to do. My hairdresser was hot and making a lot of jokes and I was laughing and giggling along - or so I thought. I became a bit confused when she kept asking me if I was feeling okay or was tired after a long day. I didn't know why she was asking me about it until I finally glimpsed myself in the mirror and I had this sort of flat, exasperated expression on my face. And when I would "laugh" at something she'd say, it was more akin to a sad exhalation of air. It was a bit like being in the Twilight Zone. Who was this jackass staring back at me? There was clearly a rift between the emotions I assumed I was conveying and what I really was.

I still have this problem and not a day goes by where it isn't an issue.

11 minutes ago, Recreant said:

Something else I'd like to add to my list of side effects that I totally forgot about: emotional deadening.

Ever since Accutane I tend to have what people would call a stern, emotionless presence. Now, it's not that I lack emotions, but I have a lot of trouble expressing them, even when I really try.

The first time I noticed it was when I was at a hairdresser after about 6 months of Accutane. I wasn't really looking at myself in the mirror much at all while having my hair cut because acne had triggered body dysmorphic disorder in me and so staring at myself in a mirror with other people around wasn't something I tended to do. My hairdresser was hot and making a lot of jokes and I was laughing and giggling along - or so I thought. I became a bit confused when she kept asking me if I was feeling okay or was tired after a long day. I didn't know why she was asking me about it until I finally glimpsed myself in the mirror and I had this sort of flat, exasperated expression on my face. And when I would "laugh" at something she'd say, it was more akin to a sad exhalation of air. It was a bit like being in the Twilight Zone. Who was this jackass staring back at me? There was clearly a rift between the emotions I assumed I was conveying and what I really was.

I still have this problem and not a day goes by where it isn't an issue.

 

Anhedonia has hit me really hard as well. To be honest I think it has brought on several other issues in of itself. I think we have some systemic inflammation going on in our brains causing depression. Lots of people have felt instantly better mentally when using steroids... this screams inflammation problem to me. 

Hatetane posted about spinal cord degeneration possibly being associated with accutane. anyone seem to develop bad posture post tane?From a nutritional standpoint, there arent many factors that cause this, but b12 deficiency is one of them.

Im going to get a intrinsic factor test on monday to see if this comes back showing antibodies.

Oral vitamin B₁₂therapy: a cautionary note

http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/103/7/2863?sso-checked=true

Although absorption of dietary vitamin B₁₂requires gastric intrinsic factor and an intact terminal ileum, pharmacologic doses of the vitamin can be absorbed by passive diffusion throughout the small intestine.^1(pp96-97)Indeed, an oral dose of 2000 g per day of cyanocobalamin was found to be effective treatment for clinically significant vitamin B₁₂deficiency even in subjects with classic pernicious anemia.²Ease of administration and low cost make oral vitamin B₁₂a more attractive option than traditional intramuscular therapy. However, over-the-counter vitamin B₁₂preparations are not subject to regulation and standardization.

When one subject was noted to be using vitamin B₁₂tablets labeled as a timed release preparation, pharmacies in the New Haven, CT, area were surveyed. In the 9 pharmacies visited, 10 of 12 brands of tablets containing 1000 g or 2000 g of vitamin B₁₂were found to be timed release preparations. Dissolution times were indicated on the labels of 4 of these preparations and ranged from 3 hours to 6 hours. Only timed release preparations were available in 5 of 6 major chain discount pharmacies visited.

The most recent study of therapy with oral vitamin B₁₂used two 1000-g tablets of the Nature's Bounty brand (Bohemia, NY) which is not labeled as a timed release preparation.²Thus, the effectiveness of timed release tablets has not been established. Since prompt treatment of vitamin B₁₂-deficient subjects is required to prevent progressive, irreversible neurologic and cognitive impairment,^{1(pp287-290),3}caution is warranted in the use of oral vitamin B₁₂therapy particularly with timed release tablets, and particularly in the setting of pernicious anemia or disorders of the terminal ileum.

Nattokinase improves blood flow by inhibiting platelet aggregation and thrombus formation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879341/

Im thinking there could be issues of reduced blood flow to the brain. Natural blood thinners could maybe help.

I've been exhausted lately and nattokinase is the only thing thats giving me some energy and functionality. I bought a bunch of natto yesterday to get it from food instead of from the supplement. I alwaysthis effect from it. Every time i donate it's very thick and doesnt flow. They tell me im dehydrated and should drink water beforehand. I thinkna liter before I leave the house..

1 hour ago, MonsterDiesel said:

I've been exhausted lately and nattokinase is the only thing thats giving me some energy and functionality. I bought a bunch of natto yesterday to get it from food instead of from the supplement. I alwaysthis effect from it. Every time i donate it's very thick and doesnt flow. They tell me im dehydrated and should drink water beforehand. I thinkna liter before I leave the house..

what your saying has been similar with me. Ive been getting alot of blood test recently, and its like my blood clots so fast i dont even need a bandaid after getting blood drawn. Its a drop or two of blood, then it quickly dries up and thickens.

id keep this in mind as well. Natto as the food is very high in k2. Which maybe there could be a balancing effect. There could be more info then just this on the subject as well.

here is just looking at one side of things, but it goes to show how potent k2 in the form of mk7 can be. Obviously there are alot of health benefits to k2 as well, putting calcium in the bones ,decreasing heart disease risk, and blood vessel health. Maybe thatosteocalcin blood test will reveal something.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23530987

Effect of low-dose supplements of menaquinone-7 (vitamin K2 ) on the stability of oral anticoagulant treatment: dose-response relationship in healthy volunteers.

CONCLUSIONS:

MK-7 supplementation at doses as low as 10 g (lower than the usual retail dose of 45 g) significantly influenced anticoagulation sensitivity in some individuals. Hence, the use of MK-7 supplements needs to be avoided in patients receiving VKA therapy

@tanedout@guitarman01

You have to read this ! 🙂

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/machine-learning-assisted-research-on-cfs.51283/page-2

1 hour ago, mariovitali said:

@tanedout@guitarman01

You have to read this ! 🙂

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/machine-learning-assisted-research-on-cfs.51283/page-2

Interesting stuff, I'll be very interested to see the currently hidden common factors once you've got some researchers on board with your hypothesis. So many things mentioned on the PFS boards that relate to things mentioned on here;

Quote

After years screwing around w/methylation,I am now leaning towards the idea that it is my sulfation that is the major problem & that is switching off methionine synthase.

Oxolates...vitamin K ....bile synthesis .....yup. That's all explained by oxolates.

Lots of gallbladder issues , ultrasounds, low secondary bile acids on tests ...,

I posted where glucose, glycated proteins & lipid perixides converts to oxolates in the presence of free copper & iron ...,

THe Alzheimer's researchers are looking at free copper..,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15781823/

Also something I don't think I've read on this thread, but have read a number of times on CFS/ME threads is how people have benefited from a low oxalate diet.

Any of the people on here who are good at doing diets that require strong willpower tried this?!

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/the-role-of-oxalates-in-autism-and-chronic-disorders/

16 minutes ago, tanedout said:

Also something I don't think I've read on this thread, but have read a number of times on CFS/ME threads is how people have benefited from a low oxalate diet.

Any of the people on here who are good at doing diets that require strong willpower tried this?!

Alow-oxalate dietis a meal plan that islowinoxalate.Oxalateis a chemical found in plant foods
Ha I think im already on this diet. No salads? no problem.

1 hour ago, mariovitali said:

You have to read this ! 🙂

So that guy didn't realize accutane might have been the source of his problems after all these years. Unfortunately that's nothing new.
Just looking at that forum, I can come to one conclusion, that southpark looking girl is a real B.

But seriously, I think we can have the most elaborate, in-depth theories in the world, (it's easy to get lost in this too) but it really comes down to what can we test? and what can we do about this, or how do we treat and gage things? In other words what's medically viable that applies to the real world? Hopefully some of this will all come together.

Here is a study linking vitamin k to bile salt metabolism

Vitamin K and thrombosis.