1 hour ago, Walden Rev said:

 

Do you plan on using it shortly?

I'm willing to do a supplement vacation (except Taurine) and testcyclodextrin, but if you plan on using it I'll hold off the buying.

havent got it yet.just bought some powder on ebay last night. I will try the other supplements first for awhile. high dose biotin, l-methionine, tmg, choline and inositol. Still havent read enough about beta-cyclodextrin to feel good about taking it.and I would have no idea how much. so if I eventually doit wont be for awhile.

Does anyone have a clear picture about the exact way methionine/SAMe/Taurine etc get rid off Accutane? Looks like right now our main goal isadding as much methylating agents to our boddies without inducing some negative side effect. So i tried to look in another methyl groupdonors. By supplementing other methyl donors, we could spare those SAMe's and greatly improve SAMe/SAH ratio which seems to be the problem(maybe?)

So, according to a chapter"Methylators" in the book "Longevity now" (which seems very interesing btw and probably worth reading), there are several methylators:

https://books.google.cz/books?id=GxSjWlUJFGYC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=msm+methyl+group+donor&source=bl&ots=lInlKpDjgD&sig=-aUuilgO3Zm0Tq99YUsFuPxwrcU&hl=cs&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXn4D72Y7KAhVMuxQKHf1JCiUQ6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=msm%20methyl%20group%20donor&f=false

• choline (four CH3 groups donor)
• TMG or DMG(three or two)
• B12- methyl-cobalamin
• MSM(methyl-sulfonyl-methane)-methylated form of sulphur(one methyl group donor)
• SAMe(one methyl group donor)
• B6,B9

of those, I know that MSM can be consumed inmassiveamounts and still is not toxic. It has been shown that you can consume 1g of MSM/per kg of bodyweight for prolonged periods of time without any side effects. In fact, MSM is simmilar toxicity to water(according to what they say). Read that stuff about MSM and you will see how beneficial it has been to many health problems, including severe heavy metal toxicity.

I dont know about others of those methylators, which could be taken in such dosessafely. What do you think?

I'm already on some dosage of MSM (5-7g per day) and I think I will uprate to 15. Already feeling some mild improvements in some conditions. I will probably add Taurine which will come in few days together with some moderate methionine dosage from supplements and eating a lot of meat.

Im gonna keep you updated how that works for me.

Anyway, do you think we could cure only by providing enough metylators and improving SAMe/SAH ratio which would change all those gene expressions and other stuff going inside or will it be something else?

Good luck and cheers, we're close mates, lets keep digging and trying!!!

EDIT:

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2198910/

• Sulfation is a major pathway for detoxificication of pharmacological agents by the liver
• ..unique role of the SAAin providing sulfates for GAG (glycosaminoglycans) synthesis
• but then, Since all the dietary supplements investigated containing sulfate, including MSM [27] are readily metabolized prior or shortly after absorption to sulfate or small molecular weight intermediates, they should be able to spare losses of GSH associated with dietary deficiencies
• Reduced sulfation appears to be caused by decreased availability of inorganic sulfate for PAPS synthesis
• Inorganic sulfate was not as effective in restoring PAPS levels as methionine (but how much less effective?)

if MSM could provide enough sulfates for GAG synthesis, it would then serve mutliple purposes: eliminate accutune through sulfation and provide enough methyl groups to improve SAMe/SAH...

tomorrow I will read the paper slowly, now I just need to go to bed..give me your opinions please

6 hours ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

 

so ourfatty liver, isfilled with altered vitamin A ,that is very hard to get rid of.... unless we take an artifical lipid carrier, cyclodextrin. Notice the serum vitaim A levels increase to a ridiculous level after taking the drug?? but its seems to say its bound to this, and the toxicity is lessened?! it does mention bone pain though. i almost wish a hosptial could administer this,and then do a blood transfusion or a blood draw.

 

or we can do what this Joesf Pitha said and take all of these fatty liver "rescuers" naturally removing these lipid globules from the liver, and basically doing the same thing?

 

he basically invented and patented both ways!!!!!

@vianelloI know that the other retinoid, etratinate, was not isotretinoin. But I wanted to point out that retinoids are indeed very lipophilic. The study I posted shows that synthetic retinoids like isotretinoin are not as lipophilic as etratinate but they are indeed lipophilic.Also, if you read more of my post, you'll see loads of evidence showing that vitamin A stays in the liver primarily for a long time. Half-life does not apply to metabolites. The half-life of 13CRA may be short but most of it is converted to ATRA. This is carried literally into the nuclei. Do you think they actually measured the time it takes for the ATRA to unbind from RAR RXR complexes and get pulled off the DNA?

Also, below it states that 13CRA has an "extremely low aqeous solubility" which would indicate it doesn't travel in the blood well AT ALL. This would point to the main excretion organ being the gut. As I've pointed out many times before, the drug is reabsorbed many times via enterohepatic circulation.

ttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15854800

cyclodextrin works on 13CRA:

13-cis-Retinoic acid (13-cis-RA) is a synthetic retinoid commonly used in the treatment of severe acne. It has also been found to possess potential chemopreventive activity. It has extremely low aqueous solubility and high photo-sensitivity. This study investigated the effects of the complexation of 13-cis-RA with alpha-cyclodextrin(alpha-CD) and hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin(HP-beta-CD) on its phase solubility. HP-beta-CD was found to be more effective in increasing the aqueous solubility of 13-cis-RA compared to alpha-CD. Phase solubility studies indicated that the solubility of 13-cis-RA was increased dramatically by the formation of inclusion complex with HP-beta-CD.

cyclodextrin also works on ATRA:

A synthetic derivative of beta-cyclodextrin in which all 2, 6 hydroxy groups were converted to methoxy groups (dimethyl-BCD), considerably accelerated the dissolution and increased the solubility of all-trans retinoic acid. Dimethyl-BCD affected the toxicity of retinoic acid in mice in a manner depending on the method of administration: (a) when dimethyl-BCD was administered simultaneously with retinoic acid, the toxic effects were increased and set in rapidly without symptoms of hypervitaminosis A, (b) when dimethyl-BCD was administered alone, after the hypervitaminosis A had been established, the survival rate was improved.

Is anyone able to get in contact with the scientists behind the studies with cyclodextrin removing retinoids from the liver?

@tryingtohelp2014We don't need a hospital to do a blood draw. Just purchase like a 20 gauge needle off the internet and take out like 250cc of blood yourself. I'm actually considering this but I don't know much about cyclodextrin atm. So far, like you said, it seems like the ideal chelator for retinoids. Does anyone know a good source of it? One that we can use via IV? This perhaps?: http://www.amazon.com/Hydroxypropyl-beta-Cyclodextrin-HPBCD-99-8-grams/dp/B00D2KV342

5 minutes ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

@vianelloI know that the other retinoid was not isotretinoin. But I wanted to point out that retinoids are indeed very lipophilic. Also, if you read more of my post, you'll see loads of evidence showing that vitamin A stays in the liver primarily for a long time. Half-life does not apply to metabolites. The half-life of 13CRA may be short but most of it is converted to ATRA. This is carried literally into the nuclei. Do you think they actually measured the time it takes for the ATRA to unbind from RAR RXR complexes and get pulled off the DNA?

Also, below it states that 13CRA has an "extremely low aqeous solubility" which would indicate it doesn't travel in the blood well AT ALL. This would point to the main excretion organ being the gut. As I've pointed out many times before, the drug is reabsorbed many times via enterohepatic circulation.

 

 

ttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15854800

13-cis-Retinoic acid (13-cis-RA) is a synthetic retinoid commonly used in the treatment of severe acne. It has also been found to possess potential chemopreventive activity. It has extremely low aqueous solubility and high photo-sensitivity. This study investigated the effects of the complexation of 13-cis-RA with alpha-cyclodextrin(alpha-CD) and hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin(HP-beta-CD) on its phase solubility. HP-beta-CD was found to be more effective in increasing the aqueous solubility of 13-cis-RA compared to alpha-CD. Phase solubility studies indicated that the solubility of 13-cis-RA was increased dramatically by the formation of inclusion complex with HP-beta-CD.

 

Is anyone able to get in contact with the scientists behind the studies with cyclodextrin removing retinoids from the liver?

@tryingtohelp2014We don't need a hospital to do a blood draw. Just purchase like a 20 gauge needle off the internet and take out like 250cc of blood yourself. I'm actually considering this but I don't know much about cyclodextrin atm. So far, like you said, it seems like the ideal chelator for retinoids. Does anyone know a good source of it? One that we can use via IV? This perhaps?: http://www.amazon.com/Hydroxypropyl-beta-Cyclodextrin-HPBCD-99-8-grams/dp/B00D2KV342

why does he say good luck in the listing? and twice? that sounds encouraging lol. but yea that bottle looks the same as the one I bought on ebay from a reputable seller. I would really do my research before I injected that. didnt sound all that safe I thought from some of the studies I briefly looked at. I believe they were in a hospital with standby precautions and what they were trying to treat was close to fatal hypervitaminosis a

@guitarman01  Post-treatment data were collected on a patient who received intravenous hydroxypropyl ²-cyclodextrin in a dose of 1.5 g/kg in 1985. Although no untoward effects were observed in this patient, rarely occurring agitation and pulmonary edema have been noted after injections into rabbits and dogs, respectively. These complications are analyzed here on the basis of symptoms and on the effects of hydroxypropyl ²-cyclodextrin on the biochemistry of a representative lipid, cholesterol, which were studied in rats. It is hypothesized that these untoward effects of parenteral hydroxypropyl ²-cyclodextrin are due to complex formation, with lipid mediators of pathological responses, of which prostaglandins are one example. These mediators normally have brief and localized functions; if hydroxypropyl ²-cyclodextrin happens to be injected when these mediator systems are activated, their influence and the responses of the organism may be increased

No bad effects noticed in the human. However rarely occurring agitation and pulmonary edema have been noted after injections into rabbits and dogs.

It has to do with the CD being able to bind up certain lipids, like cholesterol or prostaglandins. I think that even if the CD binds up these compounds, and symptoms are noticed, it won't be permanent. It will be short-lived I would imagine as the body can endogenously produce these. Also, the symptom improvements from getting out loads of retinols will not be short-lived

Also, this:  http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v32je13.htm

LD stands for lethal dose:

Looks like REALLY high doses are needed to be lethal in small animals. The CD from Amazon is only 25mg. Does anyone know how much is required to get a lot of retinoid out into the serum?

 Table 1. Results of acute toxicity studies with Ÿ-cyclodextrin.   Species Sex Route LD50 Reference (mg/kg bw)   Mouse M oral >3 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Mouse F oral >3 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Mouse M i.p. 372 Sebesty©n (1980) Mouse F i.p. 331 Sebesty©n (1980) Mouse M s.c. 419 Sebesty©n (1980) Mouse F s.c. 412 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats M oral >5 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats F oral >5 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats M i.p. 373 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats F i.p. 356 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats M & F i.v. 788 Frank  et al. (1976) Rats M s.c. >1 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats F s.c. >1 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats M & F dermal >2 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Rats M & F inh >4.9* Busch  et al. 1985 Dog M oral >5 000 Sebesty©n (1980) Dog F oral >5 000 Sebesty©n (1980)

 Fasted male Sprague-Dawley rats were given a dose of 1 500 mg Ÿ-cyclodextrin (about 3 235 mg/kg bw). Only small amounts (0.6-4% of the dose) were excreted in the faeces in a 60 hour period post- dosing and negligible amounts (0-0.9% of the dose) remained in the gastrointestinal tract. In a separate experiment using a similar dose, a large proportion was shown to be converted to glucose between 3 and 8 hours after dosing (Suzuki & Sato, 1985).

 In a repeat-dose study of very limited scope which was not reported in detail, mature male mice (number not stated) were given daily oral doses of 6 ml of a 1% solution of Ÿ-cyclodextrin for 15 days. No effects were observed on body weight or relative liver weight. Ÿ-Cyclodextrin was detected in excreta (unclear whether urine and/or faeces) by paper chromatography but could not be detected in liver or gastrointestinal tract (limit of detection not stated)(Miyazaki  et al. 1979).

 2.3.2 Human tolerance studies In three successive periods of one week, eighteen healthy males, aged 23±2 years, were given doses of 0, 24 or 48 g Ÿ-cyclodextrin/day in addition to the normal diet. The volunteers were randomly assigned to the treatment groups in what was stated to be a placebo-controlled, double blind protocol and the test compound was administered in a chocolate drink equally divided over three meals. At the high dose level "to avoid too drastic influences on bowel function" the subjects were given 24 g Ÿ-cyclodextrin on the first day, 36 g on the second day and 48 g on days 3-7. Tolerance was evaluated by subjective assessment of abdominal complaints using a questionnaire. At the end of each 7-day period, breath hydrogen concentration was measured. One of the volunteers was withdrawn from the study on after three days and replaced with a substitute because of too many adverse events, resembling lactose intolerance (abdominal cramps, nausea, diarrhoea) which were not reported before the start of the study. It is not clear what dose this volunteer received before withdrawal or whether the symptoms preceded treatment. There was a significant increase in complaints of flatulence (p<0.05) at the higher intake level; other scores of abdominal complaints, reported defaecation patterns and breath hydrogen were stated not to change significantly. The authors concluded that the dose of 24 g Ÿ-cyclodextrin/day was well tolerated on a short term basis (van Dokkum & van der Beek 1990). 

 4. EVALUATION The Committee was informed that a 1-year oral toxicity study on Ÿ-cyclodextrin in dogs was under way, and requested the results of this study to complete the evaluation of this compound. Despite its low toxicity, the Committee was concerned about the possible sequestering effects of Ÿ-cyclodextrin on lipophilic nutrients and drugs. In particular, further data on the effects of Ÿ-cyclodextrin on the bioavailability of lipophilic nutrients are required. The Committee concluded that there were sufficient data to allocate a temporary ADI of 0-6 mg/kg bw for Ÿ-cyclodextrin, based on a NOEL of 2.5% in the diet, equal to 1230 mg/kg bw/day in the study in dogs and a safety factor of 200.

alpha-cyclodextrin (not the best for binding isotretinoin but if lifeextension is selling it, it must be pretty darn safe).

http://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/item01823/calreduce-selective-fat-binder

Also, Amazon has a 100mg CD available as well for around $45 I think.

Can someone contact this company about CD being used to pull accutane from the liver?

[Edited link out]

--------

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20565310

2-Hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin removes all-trans retinol from frog rod photoreceptors in a concentration-dependent manner.

"The effectiveness of HP-beta-CD shows that a specialized interaction with the cell membrane is not necessary for the efficient transfer of all-trans retinol between the cell membrane and the carrier. The transfer occurs through a collision-based mechanism, as indicated by the linear increase of the rate of removal with the carrier concentration"

--------

[Removed link]

) Human pharmacology & toxicology A number of clinical studies are reported literature and have shown that HPBCD was well-tolerated in safe in the majority of patients receiving HPBCD at daily oral doses of the 4-8 g for at least two weeks (Irie, T and Uekama,K. (1977) J. Pharm. Sci 86, 147-162.). Higher moral daily doses of 16 to 24 g and use for 14 days to volunteers resulted in increased incidence is of sauce tools in diarrhea. Therefore based on these clinical data, HPBCD was considered to be non toxic release for 14 days if a daily dose is less than 16 g. In an intravenous dose and study single doses up to 3 g were found and no measurable effect and kidney function and well tolerated by all volunteers (Seiller et.al (1990) in: Duchene, D. (Ed). Minutes of the 5th International Symposium on cyclodextrins, Editions de Sante. Paris, pp 518-540). Following one week intravenous study and a single dose level 1 g no adverse effects were reported (Janssen Technical Bulletin,(1992). Encapsin HPB hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin. A real solution for real drug delivery problems. Janssen Biotech. N.V. pp 1-7) The pharmacokinetics of HPBCD have been studied and healthy volunteers after single intravenous and oral dosing. Following intravenous dose in at 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 or 3 g, plasma levels of the unchanged HPBCD declined rapidly and showed a bi-phasic decline. There were no differences between males and females and dose proportionality was demonstrated. Pharmacokinetic parameters such as half-life clearance and the Vdss were shown to be independent of dose and urine levels suggesting that elimination was almost totally via the kidneys and no sign of tubular reabsorption. Following oral administration HPBCD could not be detected in either the plasma after 1 hour or urine indicating that there was no absorption from the GI tract and that oral bioavailability in humans was low (Szathmary, S.C et.al. (1990) in: Duchene, D. (Ed). Minutes of the 5th International Symposium on cyclodextrins, Editions de Sante. Paris, pp 535-540).

3) Pediatric therapeutic use Carpenter et. Al. (J. Pediatrics, 1987, pp507-512) reported treating a 3 year old hypervitaminosis A patient with infusions of HPBCD in an effort to solubilize retinoids and enhance their urinary excretion. The patient received a continuous intravenous infusion at 470 mg/kg/24hrs for a total of 30 g over 4 day period in the form of 5% aquous solution in water.. Other than generalized irritability and leg pain associated with vitamin A toxicity, no adverse events were reported, although cholesterol levels decreased by 20-30% during the cyclodextrin infusions.

------

Sorry my post is becoming so long! I just keep finding stuff.. Hope it helps, though. Looks like this may be the treatment!!!

I wonder why you would have to inject it if it would be mobilizing liver stores? doesn't seem like you would.

"sauce tools in diarrhea". lol Im sorry but that made me laugh. this must have been translated.

heh ... basically using the same thing Febreze uses to trap odors, to trap retinoids. you could probably make an enema out of this stuff with coconut oil or something so it goes directly into the liver.

and are also the main ingredient in P&G's productFebrezewhich claims that the -cyclodextrins "trap" odor causing compounds, thereby reducing the odor.^[22]

9 minutes ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

heh ...  basically using the same thing Febreze uses to trap odors, to trap retinoids.

 

and are also the main ingredient in P&G's product Febreze which claims that the ²-cyclodextrins "trap" odor causing compounds, thereby reducing the odor.^[22]

"An excellent review of cyclodextrins in drug delivery can be found at: http://www.hi.is/~thorstlo/general.pdf

Examples of marketed products containing 2-Hydroxypropyl-²-cyclodextrin Cisapride Rectal Propulsid Europe Hydrocortisone Buccal Dexocort Europe Indomethacin Eye drops Indocid Europe Itraconazole Oral, IV Sporanox Europe, USA Mitomycin IV Mitozytrex USA"

I even saw it in doxycycline. It's even in food nowadays.

@tryingtohelp2014 Can you find studies showing effectieness of IV vs oral administration for pulling retinoids out of liver? My eyes are too dry to research anymore for a while..

It seems like digesting it would be better due to it going straight to the liver but I remember seeing a study or two showing that parenteral administration mobilized more retinoids. I lost the study.. Also, rectal suppository could work fantastically as well because the superior hemorrhoidal veins dump into the inferior mesenteric veins which goes straight into the portal circulation (straight to the liver!) No digestive degredation either!

Also, just typed this up. Thought it was interesting:

3 minutes ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

"An excellent review of cyclodextrins in drug delivery can be found at: http://www.hi.is/~thorstlo/general.pdf

Examples of marketed products containing 2-Hydroxypropyl--cyclodextrin Cisapride Rectal Propulsid Europe Hydrocortisone Buccal Dexocort Europe Indomethacin Eye drops Indocid Europe Itraconazole Oral, IV Sporanox Europe, USA Mitomycin IV Mitozytrex USA"

I even saw it in doxycycline. It's even in food nowadays.

 

Also, just typed this up. Thought it was interesting:

Standard dosage is 1-2mg/kg per day

Which for me at 140lbs is 64-127mg per day

I took 40mg per day for month 1

I took 80mg per day for months 2, 3, 4, and 5

---

3 mg = 10,000 IU Vitamin A

40 mg = 133,333 IU Vitamin A (*my daily dose each day for month 1)

80 mg = 266,666 IU Vitamin A (*my daily dose each day for months 2 through 5)

month 1 = 1,200 mg = 4,000,000 IU

month 2 = 2,400 mg = 8,000,000 IU

month 3 = 2,400 mg =8,000,000 IU

month 4 = 2,400 mg =8,000,000 IU

month 5 = 2,400 mg =8,000,000 IU

Total Dosage (5 months):

10,800 mg = 36,000,000 IU Vitamin A

---

Clinically it requires about 1,000,000 IU retinol per day to produce the toxic effects of 1-2 mg/kg isotretinoin

250,000 IU daily for 6-15 months can result in chronic toxicity

1,500,000 IU in a bolus can result in acute toxicity

i dont know guys.... ok for example... off of your 36,000,000 IU number. what if you take too much of this stuff and it starts to mobilize it out, and doesnt stay trapped? will all hell break loose? when they treated that kid, he just ingested some high IU liver spread or something.

1 minute ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

 

i dont know guys.... ok for example... off of your 36,000,000 IU number. what if you take too much of this stuff and it starts to mobilize it out, and doesnt stay trapped? will all hell break loose? when they treated that kid, he just ingested some high IU liver spread or something.

Added a bit more to my post via an EDIT. Check it out (suppositories). Could someone compound these for us? http://www.cyclodex.com/ perhaps

You're right, we would mobilize LOADS of accutane. BUT we have to mobilize it eventually to get rid of it.. Maybe we could do slow IV drips instead of a push. For the kid, they did a 1hr drip.

4 minutes ago, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

 

i dont know guys.... ok for example... off of your 36,000,000 IU number. what if you take too much of this stuff and it starts to mobilize it out, and doesnt stay trapped? will all hell break loose? when they treated that kid, he just ingested some high IU liver spread or something.

"Carpenter et. Al. (J. Pediatrics, 1987, pp507-512) reported treating a 3 year old hypervitaminosis A patient with infusions of HPBCD in an effort to solubilize retinoids and enhance their urinary excretion. The patient received a continuous intravenous infusion at 470 mg/kg/24hrs for a total of 30 g over 4 day period in the form of 5% aquous solution in water.. Other than generalized irritability and leg pain associated with vitamin A toxicity, no adverse events were reported, although cholesterol levels decreased by 20-30% during the cyclodextrin infusions."

if its a food additive as well I would think up to a certain small amount would be safe regardless. orally anyways

On 2 January 2016 at 8:40:19 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

 

CPK test

IGF-1 test

I hate to play the devils advocate here but in all the years that accutane victims have gone to their GP complainingof complications, surely at least one of uswould've been recommended to take this productto combat our problems????

I'd love to here that this isour "solution"but why hasn't it ever come up before in discussionwhen seeing a doctor or health practitioner??

it would be fabulous if it is the answer....fingers crossed!!!!

On 12/31/2015, 2:19:33, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

@Relentless1k

" best method is probably the 50/50 route where working on figuring out wtf accutane did while at the same time alsojust perfecting life and testing everything else to such a big degree that what you end up with is a result that you are either perfect again or the sole reason has to be accutane. "

I've gone down the route of "fix everything and hope for the best" but to no avail.

 

You havent to the degree i speak of. Different people will think optimal living is different things, to me its far beyond what most other people will assume it is. I have to focus at least 50% on this in general because im still recovering from the habits of eating like crap and smoking/drinking (teenage/early adult party drinking, not daily alcoholic drinking).. I need to get down to the point where i nail down all the optimal ways to live at the same time as i research accutane or else i will sit and eat some kind of candy and drink beer while researching it (i dont actually drink beer its just to get the point across)

Also based on our internal discussions there is no way you've had the time or the resources to implement all the testing and or life mods that i have in mind for myself. But thats general health though, it applies to humans in general no matter if they are deadly sick or healthy. But my point stands focusing on that is an essential building block to have down before doing too much diving into accutane in my mind. Ive focused way too much on accutane and too little on general life habits for a while, to the point where i totally neglect diet and eat shit because i think i have to find some weird accutane reasoning for my problems.. But thats just me

On 1/1/2016, 7:25:52, IndigoRush said:

I'm really struggling at the moment. As soon as I realise all my issues were started because of this drug I get so stressed out knowing I don't have a clue what is going on. 10 years and counting. I just don't know how to go on from here. I can't deal with this chronic fatigue for the rest of my life. Happy 2016 :/

Dude we are looking into all the current research available and self experimenting or co-operating with doctors and scientists to do what we can to solve this.

If you have only whining to contribute just see a shrink or some mental health forum and someone here will let you know if we find a solution..

On 1/2/2016, 3:40:49, macleod said:

I can't ingest marijuana anymore post tane. The last three times I tried I either had a transient ischemic attack, paresthesia, or nervous system malfunction that resulted in pins and needles/burning sensations in my arms. And believe me, the thc isn't the cause, but a trigger. I smoked for 7years just fine prior to our almighty acne cure...something happened post tane that affected the hippocampal or hypothalamus regions. I may have smoked while on Accutane which exacerbated toxicity. Believe me, when I say I am living proof for the neurological effects of isotretinoin, i mean it.

In any case, what do we do about our bodies inability to repair itself properly? The lack of cellular proliferation.. It can account for the majority of symptoms we are seeing.

I guess thats a dumb question, since that's what we're working on, balancing homeostasis. I just hope we aren't capped at the ends on the cellular or dna level.

Ya same here, post tane everything, even coffee or tea is vastly different due to the alterations in nervous system/brain

On 1/2/2016, 3:40:49, macleod said:

 

Happy new year everyone!!!

Cant believe its 2016 already, another year of suffering!!! Lol

Has anyone here had persistent bleeding gums after taking Accutane?

Also does anyone here have high systolic blood pressure? The systolic is the top number.

Learned something interesting today. Methionine and SAMe both act as SSRIs (but from a different mechanism than the toxic pharmaceuticals).

This will help raise our serotonin if we are indeedundermethylating (which is proposed to be true).

---

Relentless1k:"You havent to the degree i speak of. Different people will think optimal living is different things, to me its far beyond what most other people will assume it is"

Well, I've spent over $10K on testing & supplements & food over the past year. I've also not had a single bite of a processed food, gluten, dairy, soy, etc for 2 years. I've removed all obstacles that would prevent my body from healing and provided every nutrient needed as well (loads of organ meats, seafood, and vegetables). I also walk outside grounded for a few hours each day. Sure, there are a FEW things I haven't fixed like WiFi in the house or the lack of expensive equipment like hyperbaric oxygen chambers, PEMF, or LLLT devices but I've pretty much got a handle on everything else. I even have a sauna which I use regularly (with niacin and binders, too).

The human body craves balance. It's ALWAYS striving towards homeostasis. Even if our FOX01 genes got incredibly upregulated, the body would pull them back to normal within a reasonable amount of time. If this isn't happening (which it seems is true), something from the environment is still influencing the genes (accutane residuals remain - but I'm done beating that dead horse).

The reason I'm arguing with you is to help you. I don't want you going down the same route I went down hoping it will heal you. You have to discover the root cause and fix it. Sure, going after EVERYTHING helps majorly but it doesn't cure. Example:if you have Lyme disease, NOTHING you do will eradicate it unless you specifically targetthe infection.

It doesn't take that much effort to form a strong healthy lifestyle as a base. Takes about a month to get things dialed in. Once they are, I'd go after the drug, whether with high-dose methyl groups,B-cyclodextrin, gallbladder eliminations, etc..

On 1/2/2016, 3:40:49, macleod said:

 

@Luke89SAMe will work instantly as do SSRI's, they dont raise serotonin in the same way though and the "month to build up" is rather the time it needs to correct depression in most cases. Both have drawbacks, but SAMe is a really important compound in the body needed for practically everything, SSRI's are not needed and cause issues by themselves. Allthough they can be a good band aid solution for depression

But again SAMe is clearly the winner if looking to deal with accutane side effects. It increases anxiety for me though and it can be somewhat dangerous long term

1 hour ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

Learned something interesting today. Methionine and SAMe both act as SSRIs (but from a different mechanism than the toxic pharmaceuticals). I can confirm this as i have taken all three in various ways/doses. - Relentless1k

This will help raise our serotonin if we are indeedundermethylating (which is proposed to be true).

---

The reason I'm arguing with you is to help you. I don't want you going down the same route I went down hoping it will heal you. You have to discover the root cause and fix it. Sure, going after EVERYTHING helps majorly but it doesn't cure. Example:if you have Lyme disease, NOTHING you do will eradicate it unless you specifically targetthe infection.

It doesn't take that much effort to form a strong healthy lifestyle as a base. Takes about a month to get things dialed in. Once they are, I'd go after the drug, whether with high-dose methyl groups,B-cyclodextrin, gallbladder eliminations, etc..

Only after testing for lyme and all other infections and diseases can i know if accutane is to blame.. There is no test for accutane residues so might as well test for diseases, infections and bodily system functions.. It will take more than a month for me to implement all that i want. Half a year at the shortest. Testing timeline probably 3 years. No definitive thing to do about accutane at the moment so ill go the other route until we make some great discovery.. Not trying to be a dick but thats what i want to do for now. I think i can fix a lot of my issues with focusing on what i want to focus on. And knowledge gained will be useful in the future anyway so no time or money will be wasted. Enema's and flushes are part of what i want to implement, as are saunas, methylation etc.. So indirectly i am directly dealing with accutane while doing my general approach i guess..

12 hours ago, Relentless1k said:

 

 

Dude we are looking into all the current research available and self experimenting or co-operating with doctors and scientists to do what we can to solve this.

If you have only whining to contribute just see a shrink or some mental health forum and someone here will let you know if we find a solution..

Thats a little much man. we all deal with this shit in different ways and have our ups and downs. You know he has put the effort in, damn he created this forum.

btw got a neurologist appointment in an hour.im sure he'll just tell me im crazy lol. cant wait.

. Sorry, double post..

Methionine or cysteine (0.5%) added to the diet can overcome the severe methionine deficiency induced in rats by the addition of 1% acetaminophen, (an equivalent to the 4 gm/day to a human dose) [12]. It is interesting to note that D- as well as L-methionine could restore growth, implying that depletion of sulfur was the primary defect and not one related to protein synthesis.

----- it says right there... its not some inborn protein synthesis problem.... its a deficiency problem.

6 hours ago, Modeaa said:

Ro)accutane induced irreversible proteinuria                                                                     

...(Ro)accutane is found to cause a statistically significant induction of TGF-beta1 in several independent studies. Six weeks of isotretinoin treatment caused a statistically significant 19% increase in suction blister fluid TGF-beta1 [1]. There are no measured values of the cumulative effect after 3-4 months exposure, which is common in acne-subjects. Various studies have shown that significantly increased TGF-beta1 correlate with with the amount of urinary protein excretion (proteinuria and albumineria),

i mean, this is black and white to me.  Accutane causes a methionine deficiency , causing proteinuria, by inducing TGF-beta1

Effects of S-adenosylmethionine on liver methionine metabolism and steatosis with ethanol-induced liver injury in rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19669264

SAM provided significant protection from the liver injury induced by alcohol, resulting in a decrease in serum TNF-alpha, TGF-beta1 levels, lipid peroxidation, and the expressions of TNF-alpha and TGF-beta1 mRNAs in the livers, as well as an increase in GSH levels. 

i cant make this anymore clear.....

          you before accutane                       you after accutane

in every study ive read about this... they are VERY SPECIFIC in what needs to be supplemented.  your body only recognizes two things to control/reverse this process.    .....  Methionine and SAM-E.   NOTHING ELSE!  no other vitamin, no other amino acid combination.  nothing.   meaning... you can eat all of the sulfur rich vegetables you want, it wont do anything to reverse this.  your body will still think its starving, keeping the FOX01 gene upregulated.

but then you get somebody replying to this thread saying "but i tried SAM-E... it didnt do anything"   so i message him and asked how much did he take?  200mg for a few days!    wtf.   its posts like these that make people feel helpless.  

Theres only like 3 papers on the internet that actually tell you what accutane depletes while taking it. these are two of them.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941178

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11435507

you fix this, you fix everything else.

Sent an email to cyclodex.com asking about efficacy of BCD ridding the body of accutane.

Here is the response:

"BCD shouldnt be infused; its not approved for IV use and may cause clots.

The hypervitaminosis work you have read used hydroxypropyl BCD, Trappsol^PHPBCD, cat. #THPB; it worked quite well.

Accutane is a specific isomer of retinoic acid called isotretinoin.

Check out Int. J. Pharm.; Vol. 341, Issue 1-2 16 August 2007, Pages 238-245, Hai-Shu Lin et al.

A person cannot purchase Trappsol^P Cyclo (hydroxypropyl BCD used to treat NPC, a lysosomal storage disease); a physician could

use it just like Dr. Carpenter did for the hypervitaminosis. It should work to ameliorate isotretinoin toxicity.

Thanks for contacting CTD about how Trappsol CDs can be used."

----

Study abstract he said to check out:

13-cis-Retinoic acid (13-cis-RA), also known as isotretinoin, is commonly used in the management of severe acne. Its clinical efficacy in oncology has also been documented. As a vitamin A derivative, it is not soluble in water. This solubility barrier not only affects its oral absorption but also makes parenteral delivery difficult. Recently, water-soluble formulations of 13-cis-RA have been attempted with 2-hydroxypropyl--cyclodextrin (HP--CD) and randomly methylated--cyclodextrin (RM--CD). In this study, the pharmacokinetic profiles of these two formulations were assessed in SpragueDawley rats after single intravenous or oral administration. We found that 13-cis-RA was eliminated from the body through a dose-independent process after intravenous injection of either sodium salt or the HP--CD formulation within the tested dosage range (2.07.5mg/kg). Furthermore, HP--CD did not alter the kinetic profile of 13-cis-RA after intravenous administration in comparison with 13-cis-RA sodium salt. We also found that RM--CD dramatically enhanced the oral absorption of 13-cis-RA. At 10.0mg/kg, the bioavailability of 13-cis-RA formulated with RM--CD was about three-fold higher than that of the control (13-cis-RA suspended in 0.5% carboxymethylcellulose (CMC)). Similarly, the oral absorption of 13-cis-RA was not saturated within our tested range (2.510.0mg/kg) and the bioavailability remained unchanged. These results demonstrated that HP--CD and RM--CD were suitable excipients for the delivery of 13-cis-RA

-------

@luke89

" Do they need to build up for a month like SSRIs in order to work at all?" (in regards to methionine & SAMe)

I would assume it would take a few days to really notice an effect.

But, sometimes SSRIs aren't what you want.

Folate as an example can make some worse because it's an SSRP (promoter).

I suggest listening to this podcast: [Edited link out]

--

EDIT

great video I just found talking about upregulating detox pathways (including ways to bind bile salts that prevent toxins from reabsorbing after a gallbladder flush).

Don't respond to Lucas93's new account. He hasn't taken accutane and has no interest in what we discussother than his infatuationwith this forum and in particular this thread.

so went to neurologist today. Having biotinidase deficiency enzyme checked. I really had to press for this one. Almost didnt get it, he didnt even think they offered it and wasnt familiar with it. Also getting vitamin e blood test, homocysteine, lyme disease test,and some inflamation type blood test I didnt recognize. Creatinine was normal from past test. Should have got a vitamin a test for the hell of it for that whole altered metabolism of vitamin a theory.forgot. Also he recommended me getting a emg and eeg.

anyone have these test already? if so which ones?

My question @tryingtohelp2014. I assume you have all these supplements including sam-e and l-methionine. So are you taking these at this moment? if so what dosages?

3 hours ago, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

Sent an email to cyclodex.com asking about efficacy of BCD ridding the body of accutane.

Here is the response:

"BCD shouldnt be infused; its not approved for IV use and may cause clots.

The hypervitaminosis work you have read used hydroxypropyl BCD, Trappsol^PHPBCD, cat. #THPB; it worked quite well.

Accutane is a specific isomer of retinoic acid called isotretinoin.

Check out Int. J. Pharm.; Vol. 341, Issue 1-2 16 August 2007, Pages 238-245, Hai-Shu Lin et al.

A person cannot purchase Trappsol^P Cyclo (hydroxypropyl BCD used to treat NPC, a lysosomal storage disease); a physician could

use it just like Dr. Carpenter did for the hypervitaminosis. It should work to ameliorate isotretinoin toxicity.

Thanks for contacting CTD about how Trappsol CDs can be used."

 

I dont get it. So is this two different products or just their trademarked brand name?

what i purchased is hydroxypropyl bcd, and didnt dr carpenter infuse it?