Is taking finasteride profitable for us, assuming accutane has caused our hairloss? I have low DHT, so I guess the problem is that my hair follicles are too sensitive. I've been taking finasteride for couple months and it has just reduced my hair loss little bit.

Strangely some tane victims have recovered from their sexual sides after taking propecia/finasteride however - there are a number of posts on here. Not suggesting anyone tries this due to the obvious risks, but the recovery has tended to come about after ceasing treatment, so be interesting to hear if you find that is the case Pido.

Do you think we're all just dehydrated, it makes the most sense. Yesterday I was doing blood work and the lady said she couldn'tfind any veins because I was "severely dehydrated". That could explain the ed because of blood flow but I don't think I would have lowered libido because of that. The sad truth is that if I didn't have any sexual problems I would still be taking this damn drug. And about the alcohol I like that idea for the skin but I have sexual side effects as well. I also read that you lose manganese through excessive sweating which I had while on the drug. So I probably got rid of all the good and bad toxins

Anecdotal: Ever since taking this drug.... any time i workout, or play a sport... i literally sweat thru my entire shirt. i almost never experienced this before without really going at it. I believe this is also related to defective collagen synthesis. we simply cant hold onto the water. Fix the manganese, help vtamin C ultilzation...produce normal collagen. I believe we are severely dehydrated, but drinking water doesnt seem to help.

Collagen is hydrophilic, it attracts and absorbs water very efficiently.

 

In a study on rats they treated 2 groups, one with ATRA and one with 13CRA (Isotretinoin).

The ones treated directly with the 13CRA had higher plasma concentrations of ATRA than the ATRA treated group. This shows that 13CRA results in greater DNA damage. 13CRA is highly teratogenic. http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/63/1/82.full

If someone wants to critique what I said, please do. I am just thinking out loud.

i only read till this messege so maybe you or somone else already answer this.

once the ATRA which i belive is RA already binded inside the cell nucleus how do you get ridd of it?

so far what i found which some here might have mentioned but my memory is not so good-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632951/

''Oxidation of RA, which leads to its degradation, is carried out by three cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes known as CYP26A1 (Abu-Abed et al., 2001), CYP26B1 (Yashiro et al., 2004), and CYP26C1 (Uehara et al., 2007).''

now how to get them to work? are they already constantly trying to work but just out of gas?

but the next make me think that the nucleus receptors are blocked(or just some trasformation system to the receptor is blocked) with the 13-ciss or accutane ARTRA which somehow dont fanction as a vitamin RA so the oxidation of RA ezymes not even trying to work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol_dehydrogenase

''Some retinol dehydrogenases are in extra-ocular tissues, such as human retinol dehydrogenase-4 (RoDH-4), which converts retinol and 1-cis-retinol to different aldehydes in liver and skin. It was also found that 13-cis-retinoic acid (isotretinoin), 3,4-didehydroretinoic acid, and 3,4-didehydroretinol can act as competitive inhibitor of the 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase oxidative activity of the enzyme. This can potentially explain how isotretinoin, the active ingredient is Roaccutane (Accutane), can suppress sebaceous glands and be used for severe acne treatment''

EDIT: I read the rest. wow! B5 Pantothenate 10 >07%

its 7 not 70 right?. i remember one study abstract that said that b5 help for side affect from accutane of the skin glands.i will dind it and put it here tomorrow

Correct, it is 7, not 70. I was almost deficient but not quite. Interesting that I was deficient in loads of B vitamins. Suggests an infection of some sort. Also, the main antioxidants of mitochondria, CoQ10 and lipoic acid aren't great ones to be deficient in. Be sure to pay attention to my Vitamin A deficiency all you people out there who are avoiding Vit A to try to heal yourselves.

As for getting the ATRA out of the nuclei, I am just doing everything possible to upregulate intracellular healing. Maintaining lowest possible insulin, keeping mTOR downregulated, eating plenty of healthy fats and cholesterol (especially important for all those suffering sexual dysfunction and adrenal insufficiency), eating organ meats and vegetables daily, and trying to work on methylation which will repair DNA.

Introduction to methylation for all those just learning the basics:

http://undergroundwellness.com/podcasts/305-mthfr-made-easy/

After listening to the podcast and you want more info, watch this video:

-----------

1) Does anyone suffer EXTREME muscle pain like myself? Literally, if I flex any muscle, it is quite painful. I had to drop out of college due to the systemic pain. I'm only 20. I don't know any other accutane victims who suffer as much physical pain as me. I think I might have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth causing the "fibromyalgia"

2) Tryingtohelp2014, still curious about your opinion on me taking high doses of vitamin A through food (with K2 and D of course). Also, what would be your best manganese repleting strategy (dosages, timing, cofactors involved etc..) As for you sweating, I don't sweat at all. So not sure if that's a universal thing with us accutane victims.

3) I'd also be curious about what everyones' main concerns are. If people could briefly list their main symptoms and when they took the drug and how long their course lasted and any other useful info like age, gender etc...

I took it 2 years ago. It lasted 5 months. I am now 20 yrs old. The symptoms gradually got worse through the treatment but especially got bad after it was over.

My symptoms:

Mine include extremely dry everything (eyes, skin, ligaments, etc..), skin doesn't heal, eye floaters like crazy, extremely thin hair (it stopped falling out but it isn't regrowing), intense, chronic, systemic muscle and joint pain, very poor digestion and absorption, chronic acid reflux no matter what (which is destroying my esophagus and teeth and tongue, red dots all over the tip of my tongue indicating B vitamin deficiency (from poor absorption or an infection), very poor blood flow (my circulation cuts off very easily, as an example if I put my ankle up on my knee while sitting, that leg will completely go numb), muscles do not heal, muscles will get pulled if I workout then they stay large and inflamed (my abdomen has a lot of bumps and knots all along my rib cage from muscles being torn and not healing), even my eye muscles are strained and I can't even research as much any more because they aren't healing.., can't take deep diaphragmatic breaths. My abdomen is too tight or something (or maybe it is the stress of it all) (also have a hiatal hernia, doc wants to do surgery..), tonsil stones and just really bad breath no matter what, depression and very bad suicidal thoughts, low dopamine and seratonin (more than likely due to lack of acid to break down protein into the necessary amino acids), tingling of the limbs and fingers, joints all crack and pop, my libido is still strong so that's one thing that isn't messed up for me like most other people but it's not like I can use it for anything... My colon will spasm multiple times a day. I can feel it very plainly, probably autoimmune in nature (celiac most likely as I have high levels of multiple wheat protein antibodies).. brain fog, trouble sleeping through the entire night, I could probably come up with a few other things as well if I really thought about it. I just kind of forget what it feels like to be normal. Doc just wants me to take acid blockers and antidepressants. I don't even know what to say about conventional medicine. I can't even describe it. It's a joke

EDIT: Would really appreciate it if someone could come on here who recovered from similar symptoms as mine and provide some input. I'm scared I'll never be able to function normally again. My life has been ruined by this drug so far

getting closer folks.....

Role of UDP-Glucuronosyltransferase Isoforms in 13-cis Retinoic Acid Metabolism in Humans

http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/38/7/1211.abstract

research UGT1A3 UGT1A7 UGT1A9

I dont want to scare you but have you heard of PFS. www.propeciahelp.com

Now I have only very moderate side effects. Should I be worried they get worse if I stop taking finasteride? Does anyone know does finasteride work even if Accutane is the reason for hairloss and not usual reason (DHT?)?

So what supplements do you recommend to help @tryingtohelp2014. Me and you have almost identical symptoms. Interestingly i've been experimenting with lymphatic system cleansers and bought some cleavers, red clover and nettle herbs to boil into a tea. My skin started tingling every time i drank the tea and within a few days my sebborheic dermatitis stopped and i got very dry skin, it was exactly like it was pushing the accutane out of the tissue. It's calmed down now, this is after about 3 weeks of constant use and when i urinated i got out lot's of sediment just as annoyy described. The lymph is responsible for carrying all fats and fat soluble vitamins around the body, i just thought it was interesting.

I've been reading a lot about epigenetics and DNA methylation and how accutane messes up the genes by switching certain genes on and off, is this the cause of the problem? things like methyl B12, P5P, TMG and folate are meant to help, i don't know how to pursue it, any advice would be welcome.

On 12/12/2014 at 12:04 AM, Chico Esposito said:

So what supplements do you recommend to help @tryingtohelp2014. Me and you have almost identical symptoms. Interestingly i've been experimenting with lymphatic system cleansers and bought some cleavers, red clover and nettle herbs to boil into a tea. My skin started tingling every time i drank the tea and within a few days my sebborheic dermatitis stopped and i got very dry skin, it was exactly like it was pushing the accutane out of the tissue. It's calmed down now, this is after about 3 weeks of constant use and when i urinated i got out lot's of sediment just as annoyy described. The lymph is responsible for carrying all fats and fat soluble vitamins around the body, i just thought it was interesting.

I've been reading a lot about epigenetics and DNA methylation and how accutane messes up the genes by switching certain genes on and off, is this the cause of the problem? things like methyl B12, P5P, TMG and folate are meant to help, i don't know how to pursue it, any advice would be welcome.

I know, ive mentioned this to you before... same exact symptoms. I believe we have an accutane induced collagen problem. this fits all of our symptoms from dry skin,to joint problems, to eye problems,to the gut.

besides extremely dry skin.... joint pain, along with snapping, clicking and popping tendons, are my #2 symptom that happened during and after accutane. ive seen numerous other people mention this happen to them as well. this was the first article that convinced me it was manganese related

[Edited link out]

The thing is... i think we're talking about the same thing... you say Lymph... i say manganese. Cloves have the highest manganese content amount per wt (Manganese: Cloves, Milk Thistle seed, Nettle, Dandelion.) Herbs and healthy eating...this is just another way of saying... "trying to correct your mineral status." Its almost impossible to correct a true deficiency from vegetables alone, because phytates inhibit absorption. Also, if our livers are really that messed up, ive read studies where only 5% of the manganese is absorbed. we might need A LOT.... but then ive read any excess manganese is excreted thru the bile, and if you have a bile flow problem (which we all do imo), it could build up quickly...so its conflicting at best. so go slow.

you and annoy believed in glucurodination. example... the Glucuronic acid in Kombucha. This is useless without the manganese cofactor to activate glucuronosyltransferase. This is whats actually needed to bind the substances together for excretion. I posted the one UGT that controls this for retinoids and their metabolites...and i also showed that manganese is THE cofactor needed for this to work.... there is no other mineral more important for this (glucuronosyltransferase 2B7 (UGT2B7))

I believe we become depleted somewhere during the course of the accutane treatment, we lose the manganese cofactor needed to conjugate the metabolites out, it down regulates UGT2B7, and the accutane metabolite gets stored somehow, and continues to suppress us epigenetically....for years after stopping. thats how the drug works.

We need to get the bile flowing, our stomach acid working to digest, and have our gut healed to absorb the cofactors needed for the enzymes to bind and excrete. I believe anybody taking skate oil, cod liver oil, pro vitamin A rich foods are crazy. for some it might treat a few of the symptons at best, for others it might be very dangerous and produce more ROS. Ive shown where even natural carotenoids can really hurt people with messed up livers. thats why i think some of us experience some bad symptoms when eating beta-carotene rich foods...we become toxic. I think if we correct the fundamental problem, that will take care of itself.

Currently taking this:

Gut: Probiotic NOW 25 bil 10 strain with L. plantarum... taken at night before bed. (totally fixed my stomach issues.)

Manganese 10-15 mg taken alone first thing in the am (i feel this starting to build up now...i feel less joint pain in shoulders)

Vitamin C collagen cofactor needed to speed up process

Choline bile flow ... needed for fatty liver induced by manganese deficiency

B1 synergistic with manganese

B2 the B cofactor

molybdenum sulfite to sulfate conversion

methylation

methyfolate 1000mcg

methyl b12

p5p

TMG 1000-3000mg for the bile flow

i try to eat foods rich in manganese/zinc/copper now as well... berries, nuts and seeds, cinnamon, organic maple syrup etc.

Thanks for the response tryingtohelp, why manganese? does accutane deplete it? really interesting you said nettle and milk thistle in relation to the manganese because they are also in the herbs i take. It's clivers, nettles, red clover, milk thistle, burdock, dandelion leaf and root and echinacea.

Your right i did believe glucuronidation was affected, maybe it is i have no way of knowing. I have done all the liver flushes as recommended on the video on the other page and they had no effect on me. So is manganese the way to go? and have you noticed a reduction in cracking joints, knees etc from taking it?

Also have you noticed any effect from the methylation supplements?

Thanks for the response tryingtohelp, why manganese? does accutane deplete it? really interesting you said nettle and milk thistle in relation to the manganese because they are also in the herbs i take. It's clivers, nettles, red clover, milk thistle, burdock, dandelion leaf and root and echinacea.

Your right i did believe glucuronidation was affected, maybe it is i have no way of knowing. I have done all the liver flushes as recommended on the video on the other page and they had no effect on me. So is manganese the way to go? and have you noticed a reduction in cracking joints, knees etc from taking it?

ive recently noticed a reduction in joint pain from manganese...i think this might take a few months and/or a higher dosage. ive read it takes 100-120 days for collagen to turnover.

out of the methylation supplements, ive noticed things with TMG...its almost like my skin wants to turn on, and then shuts off again. probably related to bile flow. again this might take months to notice any progress.

i dont believe in liver flushes. i dont believe in kidney flushes.... i think this is nonsense borderline quackery. massive amounts of olive oil might stimulate your gallbladder, but for some with obstructions, this could be dangerous, and lead to a full out gallbladder attack.

your body has all of the enzymes it needs to get rid of any toxic substance you throw at it. it has the enzymes to produce bile flow to flush out organs. what your body sometimes doesnt have, are the co-factors needed to activate these enzymes.

On 12/12/2014 at 1:09 AM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

On 12/12/2014 at 12:04 AM, Chico Esposito said:

So what supplements do you recommend to help @tryingtohelp2014. Me and you have almost identical symptoms. Interestingly i've been experimenting with lymphatic system cleansers and bought some cleavers, red clover and nettle herbs to boil into a tea. My skin started tingling every time i drank the tea and within a few days my sebborheic dermatitis stopped and i got very dry skin, it was exactly like it was pushing the accutane out of the tissue. It's calmed down now, this is after about 3 weeks of constant use and when i urinated i got out lot's of sediment just as annoyy described. The lymph is responsible for carrying all fats and fat soluble vitamins around the body, i just thought it was interesting.

I've been reading a lot about epigenetics and DNA methylation and how accutane messes up the genes by switching certain genes on and off, is this the cause of the problem? things like methyl B12, P5P, TMG and folate are meant to help, i don't know how to pursue it, any advice would be welcome.

I know, ive mentioned this to you before... same exact symptoms. I believe we have an accutane induced collagen problem. this fits all of our symptoms from dry skin,to joint problems, to eye problems,to the gut.

besides extremely dry skin.... joint pain, along with snapping, clicking and popping tendons, are my #2 symptom that happened during and after accutane. ive seen numerous other people mention this happen to them as well. this was the first article that convinced me it was manganese related

[Edited link out]

The thing is... i think we're talking about the same thing... you say Lymph... i say manganese. Cloves have the highest manganese content amount per wt (Manganese: Cloves, Milk Thistle seed, Nettle, Dandelion.) Herbs and healthy eating...this is just another way of saying... "trying to correct your mineral status." Its almost impossible to correct a true deficiency from vegetables alone, because phytates inhibit absorption. Also, if our livers are really that messed up, ive read studies where only 5% of the manganese is absorbed. we might need A LOT.... but then ive read any excess manganese is excreted thru the bile, and if you have a bile flow problem (which we all do imo), it could build up quickly...so its conflicting at best. so go slow.

you and annoy believed in glucurodination. example... the Glucuronic acid in Kombucha. This is useless without the manganese cofactor to activate glucuronosyltransferase. This is whats actually needed to bind the substances together for excretion. I posted the one UGT that controls this for retinoids and their metabolites...and i also showed that manganese is THE cofactor needed for this to work.... there is no other mineral more important for this (glucuronosyltransferase 2B7 (UGT2B7))

I believe we become depleted somewhere during the course of the accutane treatment, we lose the manganese cofactor needed to conjugate the metabolites out, it down regulates UGT2B7, and the accutane metabolite gets stored somehow, and continues to suppress us epigenetically....for years after stopping. thats how the drug works.

We need to get the bile flowing, our stomach acid working to digest, and have our gut healed to absorb the cofactors needed for the enzymes to bind and excrete. I believe anybody taking skate oil, cod liver oil, pro vitamin A rich foods are crazy. for some it might treat a few of the symptons at best, for others it might be very dangerous and produce more ROS. Ive shown where even natural carotenoids can really hurt people with messed up livers. thats why i think some of us experience some bad symptoms when eating beta-carotene rich foods...we become toxic. I think if we correct the fundamental problem, that will take care of itself.

Currently taking this:

Gut: Probiotic NOW 25 bil 10 strain with L. plantarum... taken at night before bed. (totally fixed my stomach issues.)

Manganese 10-15 mg taken alone first thing in the am (i feel this starting to build up now...i feel less joint pain in shoulders)

Vitamin C collagen cofactor needed to speed up process

Choline bile flow ... needed for fatty liver induced by manganese deficiency

B1 synergistic with manganese

B2 the B cofactor

molybdenum sulfite to sulfate conversion

methylation

methyfolate 1000mcg

methyl b12

p5p

TMG 1000-3000mg for the bile flow

i try to eat foods rich in manganese/zinc/copper now as well... berries, nuts and seeds, cinnamon, organic maple syrup etc.

Great post. Thanks for that.

I believe anybody taking skate oil, cod liver oil, pro vitamin A rich foods are crazy. for some it might treat a few of the symptons at best, for others it might be very dangerous and produce more ROS. Ive shown where even natural carotenoids can really hurt people with messed up livers. thats why i think some of us experience some bad symptoms when eating beta-carotene rich foods...we become toxic. I think if we correct the fundamental problem, that will take care of itself.

Could you show where you said carotenoids hurt people with messed up livers? Are you talking about your post on Dec 7th (post #5830) - the one about mice having the BCDO2 gene mutation that allows carotene to build up in the tissues?

I think if we had toxic levels of carotenoids, it would show up on our skin as an orange pigment. Also, carotenoids

I'm just really curious about your theory about vitamin A causing damage. I don't yet understand how it could.

In case people missed my previous post that included the link to the

about methylation. If we optimize methylation we can repair any potential adverse epigenetic effects due to the accutane. http://seekinghealth.org/gift/

Hello peeps,

I'm so mad, I wanted to get the gene testing done from that 23 and me website, but alas, FDA removed genetic health reports. This would have included FoxO genes. My accupuncturist actually turned me on to the idea. She interestingly enough had recently been diagnosed with MTHFR mutation, which she was having very similar symptomology as some of us, not the same by any means; leaky gut, candida, joint problems, fatigue, hair loss, to name a few, and started taking methylfolate and said it was night and day. Not saying this is our issue obviously, but it's so interesting that once the gene was pinpointed, she received help from a doctor, and gets one supplement from Whole Foods to treat her most serious issues. I hope one day that can happen fro us, but I fear I may be simplifying our issue. I don't quite follow all of the interesting biochemistry posts (obviously), but where are we at in terms of the FoxO gene...are we trying to reactivate this gene? Is this where the manganese may come in? I'm just confused...I need everything simplified...I blame accutane!!

Currently, doing candida diet, gluten free, mostly dairy free, consuming kefir and kimchi (homemade), probiotics, bone broth soup, miso, and focusing on digestive health as a hardcore attempt to heal gut. Taking Nystatin for candida which I don't even know is working however, it appears to be slightly with digestive complaints. It's early on. Restarted LDN for joint pain, which usually subsides when sugar is taken out anyways, but now it is next to 0 again with medication which is good. Sleeping like a baby and waking up refreshed. I don't like the idea of taking any medications but it has gotten so bad over the years that I need LDN for pain management and sleep. The plan is to use it in cycles to give my liver a break here and there. I noticed the biggest impact with it for mental health. It really is night and day. Taking a break from liver flushes since the effects were short-lived, and apparently not a good idea to tax the liver in winter. Apparently it's a spring thing to do. I do believe in them to a degree but I am skeptical. It's just so interesting to see a sudden production of collagen and to have a perfectly functioning body for a few days post liver cleanse. Something is definitely linked. Anyways, happy with my regimen, just looking for more as always to improve upon it. Diet really is everything with symptom management for me anyways.

Oh yah, I also do daily scalp massages and stretching as a preventative measure. the scalp massages have thickened up the hair folicles. No new hair growth though Womp womp.

I really still do wonder about the potential regenerative effects of cannabis oil when combined with my intense regimen. Taking out the inflammation/dietary triggers and adding that seems like it would be highly beneficial but it always comes back to how to get it. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but I feel good about it.

 

Patient Results (% Control) Reference Range (greater than)

DEFICIENCIES

Folate 31 >32%

Vitamin A (Retinol) 68 >70%

Coenzyme Q-10 86 >86%

Alpha Lipoic Acid 81 >81

BORDERLINE DEFICIENCIES

B3 Niacinamide 83 >80%

B5 Pantothenate 10 >07%

B6 Pyridoxine 58 >54%

B7 Biotin 38 >34%

Inositol 62 >58%

Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol) 54 >50%

Antioxidant Function 45 >40%

-----

Manganese 64 >50%

i dont understand how to read this chart. the vitamin A sais that you have more than 70 precent of the people? what the 68 is? it's on the deficeint part of the table. i initialy thaght that your b5 levels are only higher than 7% of the gneral pupilation that tested(means 93 have more than this).

here is the abstract of the study on b5 improoving isotretinoin skin side effects

http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1046%2Fj.1525-1470.2002.01051.x?r3_referer=wol&tracking_action=preview_click&show_checkout=1

''Recently we have observed great improvement in

isotretinoin-associated cheilitis from the use of 5%

dexpanthenol cream. The cream is applied to the lips, two

to three times a day, preferentially after meals. Patients

describing dryness of the nasal mucosa or epistaxis are

instructed to apply the cream to this site as well. Areas of

extremely dry and scaly skin can also be treated in the

same way.

Objective and subjective improvement is generally

noted following the rst days of therapy, especially if

compared to the use of dierent chapsticks and emol-

lients. Scaling, dryness, and ssures of the lips, nasal

mucosa, and skin dramatically improve, as do subjective

symptoms of burning and pain.

We suggest that dexpanthenol cream is eective, safe,

and has a high compliance rate when used in the man-

agement of mucocutaneous side eects during isotretin-

oin therapy.''

Just read the chart as points.

So Folate is 31 points but it should be more than 32 points.

Manganese is in normal range according to his chart, debunking the whole manganese theory. Maybe we need alot more.

blood tests arent the end all be all. is it bound manganese? Do you have enough choline? you can test high for copper and yet still be deficient etc etc.

here is a great thread by a very smart person discussing mineral imbalances and how to approach them:

[Edited link out]

On 12/12/2014 at 5:57 PM, Walden Rev said:

Just read the chart as points.

So Folate is 31 points but it should be more than 32 points.

Manganese is in normal range according to his chart, debunking the whole manganese theory. Maybe we need alot more.

Correct, the numbers on the right are other peoples' results averaged together (reference range). The numbers on the left are my results. Either everyone is deficient in manganese and they are experiencing the same symptoms as me or manganese isn't the problem.. OR the blood test isn't accurate at all.

On 12/12/2014 at 8:14 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

blood tests arent the end all be all. is it bound manganese? Do you have enough choline? you can test high for copper and yet still be deficient etc etc.

here is a great thread by a very smart person discussing mineral imbalances and how to approach them:

[Edited link out[

The spectracell blood test I had done actually looks inside RBCs. You can't get much more accurate than that (unless manganese can be plentiful in RBCs but deficient in other cells such as liver cells or something.

I am of the opinion that the accutane has affected our normal Vit A metabolism along with our livers which led to our guts being destroyed -> affects pretty much everything. I'm not sure there will be a SINGLE factor we can fix to cure ourselves. We have to look at improving our health in every possible way if we're to get through this

On 12/12/2014 at 10:11 PM, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

On 12/12/2014 at 5:57 PM, Walden Rev said:

Just read the chart as points.

So Folate is 31 points but it should be more than 32 points.

Manganese is in normal range according to his chart, debunking the whole manganese theory. Maybe we need alot more.

Correct, the numbers on the right are other peoples' results averaged together (reference range). The numbers on the left are my results. Either everyone is deficient in manganese and they are experiencing the same symptoms as me or manganese isn't the problem.. OR the blood test isn't accurate at all.

On 12/12/2014 at 8:14 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

>>>>>>>blood tests arent the end all be all. is it bound manganese? Do you have enough choline? you can test high for copper and yet still be deficient etc etc.

here is a great thread by a very smart person discussing mineral imbalances and how to approach them:

[Edited link out]

The spectracell blood test I had done actually looks inside RBCs. You can't get much more accurate than that (unless manganese can be plentiful in RBCs but deficient in other cells such as liver cells or something.

I am of the opinion that the accutane has affected our normal Vit A metabolism along with our livers which led to our guts being destroyed -> affects pretty much everything. I'm not sure there will be a SINGLE factor we can fix to cure ourselves. We have to look at improving our health in every possible way if we're to get through this

google " spectra cell scam " youll get 90000 hits. there is no way to tell from a lymphocyte if your tendons are deficient in manganese. your body will rob from whatever and whenever it can, to keep your blood in homeostasis. you must go by the symptoms...and try to make as many connections as possible.

this debunks nothing.

from a PHD student:

There is no evidence that analysis of the nutritional content of white blood cells in any way reflects on the nutritional status of the body. Every cell type has different needs, and it is nothing short of foolhardy/naive to believe that some tests run on white blood cells will accurately determine anything. Even if you could accurately determine the nutritional status of a white blood cell, it would say nothing about the status of someone's muscle cells, liver cells, brain cells, etc.

you guys do what you want... smoke what you want...take weird potions...get expensive blood tests that are questionable at best...who cares.

These should be the only two papers you need to read

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308471

http://www.jbc.org/content/early/2003/06/06/jbc.M207899200.full.pdf

1. we know what enzyme conjugates 13 cis retinoic acid and its metabolites out of the body...and we taxed this enzyme our bodies make day after day for 4+ months.

2. we know what mineral best expresses this enzyme and is literally responsible for binding the substrate ... manganese

3. we know that if youre deficient in this cofactor, the enzyme responsible for clearing the metabolite, shuts off.

ill see you in a few weeks.

On 12/12/2014 at 10:48 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

On 12/12/2014 at 10:11 PM, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

On 12/12/2014 at 5:57 PM, Walden Rev said:

Just read the chart as points.

So Folate is 31 points but it should be more than 32 points.

Manganese is in normal range according to his chart, debunking the whole manganese theory. Maybe we need alot more.

Correct, the numbers on the right are other peoples' results averaged together (reference range). The numbers on the left are my results. Either everyone is deficient in manganese and they are experiencing the same symptoms as me or manganese isn't the problem.. OR the blood test isn't accurate at all.

On Invalid Date at NaN:NaN PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

>>>>>>>>blood tests arent the end all be all. is it bound manganese? Do you have enough choline? you can test high for copper and yet still be deficient etc etc.

here is a great thread by a very smart person discussing mineral imbalances and how to approach them:

[Edited link out]

xtlockquote>

The spectracell blood test I had done actually looks inside RBCs. You can't get much more accurate than that (unless manganese can be plentiful in RBCs but deficient in other cells such as liver cells or something.

I am of the opinion that the accutane has affected our normal Vit A metabolism along with our livers which led to our guts being destroyed -> affects pretty much everything. I'm not sure there will be a SINGLE factor we can fix to cure ourselves. We have to look at improving our health in every possible way if we're to get through this

google " spectra cell scam " youll get 90000 hits. there is no way to tell from a lymphocyte if your tendons are deficient in manganese. your body will rob from whatever and whenever it can, to keep your blood in homeostasis. you must go by the symptoms...and try to make as many connections as possible.

this debunks nothing.

from a PHD student:

There is no evidence that analysis of the nutritional content of white blood cells in any way reflects on the nutritional status of the body. Every cell type has different needs, and it is nothing short of foolhardy/naive to believe that some tests run on white blood cells will accurately determine anything. Even if you could accurately determine the nutritional status of a white blood cell, it would say nothing about the status of someone's muscle cells, liver cells, brain cells, etc.

you guys do what you want... smoke what you want...take weird potions...get expensive blood tests that are questionable at best...who cares.

These should be the only two papers you need to read

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308471

http://www.jbc.org/content/early/2003/06/06/jbc.M207899200.full.pdf

1. we know what enzyme conjugates 13 cis retinoic acid and its metabolites out of the body...and we taxed this enzyme our bodies make day after day for 4+ months.

2. we know what mineral best expresses this enzyme and is literally responsible for binding the substrate ... manganese

3. we know that if youre deficient in this cofactor, the enzyme responsible for clearing the metabolite, shuts off.

ill see you in a few weeks.

I'm not trying to debunk anything. I think you're right about the manganese and I'm in complete agreement that the blood test might not be accurate at all. I'm just here to provide different perspectives. It benefits all of us I believe.

Everyone should look into Terry Wahl's book - The Wahls Protocol. I'm going to be buying the new version coming out Dec 30th. You basically eat 9 cups of different kinds of vegetables a day while maintaining extreme ketosis to make our mitochondria as efficient as possible. I've read that it goes into great detail about all of the different nutrients and their functions.. Should be a good read

I will say one positive thing about Accutane and that's it. It helped relieve my chronic headaches I had since a child.

I was born with a ArnoldChiari malformation type 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold%E2%80%93Chiari_malformation

which gave me major headaches 6-7 times a month and sometimes I would pass out.

I would also experience leg numbness, and difficulty with certain head positions when laying down.

It was a positive side effect, now I can think more clearly. However the other negative side effects I am not so sure now.

I believe the drug affected the brain in some way.

I will post later to respond to the micro nutrients test questions.

Along with my floaters, low night vision I have begun seeing this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidinger%27s_brush

Yellow and blue spots.

I am seeing a Neruo opthamologist next week.

http://www.nanosweb.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3279

Hey guys, thought i would post an update. I took Tryingtohelp's advice with the manganese supplements.

It's been 2 days @ 12.5mg of Manganese.

Things I have noticed:

- I am peeling on my forehead (the exact same place and density as I did when I was on accutane)

- My ankle stops popping when I walk ( I didn't even know this was happening until I noticed it wasn't) coincidence?

- MY lower back pain is extremely reduced (and this is including an 8 hour study cram with terrible posture).

Could it be that the accutane is back in my system? Can the manganese really eliminate my back pain and joint popping? = S

Maybe off topic but I feel the need to thank you all

I've been prescribed Accutane (or Roacutan in my country. Isotretinoin) this week because of a bad seborreic dermatitis.

Since Im with this dermatitis so bad first because of a Differin cream bad reaction, then got worse because of protopic cream (prescribed to cure the differin bad reaction) this time I went to do some research on the internet before I use the meds.

First of all, I'm very very sorry you guys are experiencing this. I really hope everybody get better and find a proper cure for it.

Second, thank you very much for the warnings and all information here. If it where not your warnings maybe it would be me tomorrow.

There is not a single word about this anywhere on my country.

Today was day 4 on my treatment, I took 40mg/day this week.

4 days of accutane.

I hope this was not enough to affect me.

I won't take it anymore.

I'll get back to the derm this week and ask for another alternative to treat me. Creams, laser, etc, not accutane.

My best wishes to all of you

Can confirm immediate skin healing (dryness) from taking 10mg Manganese.

Can confirm a night of heavy drinking makes my skin feel normal for a little while the next day.

Can confirm Molybdenum helps as long as I'm taking other supps.

Can confirm Methyl B12 works even by itself.

Choline makes me feel depressed and bad, but have not taken it since I started taking the Manganese/Molybdenum.

Will post back in time.

Tryingtohelp - God bless you.

Cheers

On 12/12/2014 at 10:48 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

On 12/12/2014 at 10:11 PM, yetanotheraccutanevictim said:

On 12/12/2014 at 5:57 PM, Walden Rev said:

Just read the chart as points.

So Folate is 31 points but it should be more than 32 points.

Manganese is in normal range according to his chart, debunking the whole manganese theory. Maybe we need alot more.

Correct, the numbers on the right are other peoples' results averaged together (reference range). The numbers on the left are my results. Either everyone is deficient in manganese and they are experiencing the same symptoms as me or manganese isn't the problem.. OR the blood test isn't accurate at all.

On Invalid Date at NaN:NaN PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

>>>>>>>blood tests arent the end all be all. is it bound manganese? Do you have enough choline? you can test high for copper and yet still be deficient etc etc.

here is a great thread by a very smart person discussing mineral imbalances and how to approach them:

[Edited link out]

xt

The spectracell blood test I had done actually looks inside RBCs. You can't get much more accurate than that (unless manganese can be plentiful in RBCs but deficient in other cells such as liver cells or something.

I am of the opinion that the accutane has affected our normal Vit A metabolism along with our livers which led to our guts being destroyed -> affects pretty much everything. I'm not sure there will be a SINGLE factor we can fix to cure ourselves. We have to look at improving our health in every possible way if we're to get through this

google " spectra cell scam " youll get 90000 hits. there is no way to tell from a lymphocyte if your tendons are deficient in manganese. your body will rob from whatever and whenever it can, to keep your blood in homeostasis. you must go by the symptoms...and try to make as many connections as possible.

this debunks nothing.

from a PHD student:

There is no evidence that analysis of the nutritional content of white blood cells in any way reflects on the nutritional status of the body. Every cell type has different needs, and it is nothing short of foolhardy/naive to believe that some tests run on white blood cells will accurately determine anything. Even if you could accurately determine the nutritional status of a white blood cell, it would say nothing about the status of someone's muscle cells, liver cells, brain cells, etc.

you guys do what you want... smoke what you want...take weird potions...get expensive blood tests that are questionable at best...who cares.

These should be the only two papers you need to read

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308471

http://www.jbc.org/content/early/2003/06/06/jbc.M207899200.full.pdf

1. we know what enzyme conjugates 13 cis retinoic acid and its metabolites out of the body...and we taxed this enzyme our bodies make day after day for 4+ months.

2. we know what mineral best expresses this enzyme and is literally responsible for binding the substrate ... manganese

3. we know that if youre deficient in this cofactor, the enzyme responsible for clearing the metabolite, shuts off.

ill see you in a few weeks.

Thanks for all the time you put into this.

Ill start the protocol very soon.

Hmmmm maybe this is why I crave mussels and seafood in general....yum yum...Manganese. Worth a shot.

On 12/13/2014 at 6:39 AM, Antoniorgr said:

Maybe off topic but I feel the need to thank you all

I've been prescribed Accutane (or Roacutan in my country. Isotretinoin) this week because of a bad seborreic dermatitis.

Since Im with this dermatitis so bad first because of a Differin cream bad reaction, then got worse because of protopic cream (prescribed to cure the differin bad reaction) this time I went to do some research on the internet before I use the meds.

First of all, I'm very very sorry you guys are experiencing this. I really hope everybody get better and find a proper cure for it.

Second, thank you very much for the warnings and all information here. If it where not your warnings maybe it would be me tomorrow.

There is not a single word about this anywhere on my country.

Today was day 4 on my treatment, I took 40mg/day this week.

4 days of accutane.

I hope this was not enough to affect me.

I won't take it anymore.

I'll get back to the derm this week and ask for another alternative to treat me. Creams, laser, etc, not accutane.

My best wishes to all of you

Biotin supplementation, in doses of 1-10 mg/day has been shown to heal most rashes within weeks, even in severe cases of seborrheic dermatitis.¹⁷ Breast-fed infants with seborrheic dermatitis improved dramatically when their malnourished mothers were given biotin injections, and in other cases when the infants themselves were supplemented with biotin.⁵² However, this data is inconclusive since biotin was found to be ineffective in a double-blind clinical trial, suggesting that biotin deficiency may not always be the cause of seborrheic dermatitis in infants.^18,53

It may be a good idea to take manganese with biotin for best results. Experts suggest that manganese indirectly supports biotin in its healing effects for certain skin conditions (e.g., psoriasis and acne). Biotin needs certain enzymes to function in the skin that manganese helps to activate.⁵⁴

^{many many people here have accutane induced seborrheic dermatitis}

for all of you who are starting to take manganese... its very important to take choline as well. again, read what "doglover" says in this thread [Edited link out]

Can confirm immediate skin healing (dryness) from taking 10mg Manganese.

Can confirm a night of heavy drinking makes my skin feel normal for a little while the next day.

Can confirm Molybdenum helps as long as I'm taking other supps.

Can confirm Methyl B12 works even by itself.

Choline makes me feel depressed and bad, but have not taken it since I started taking the Manganese/Molybdenum.

Will post back in time.

 

Tryingtohelp - God bless you.

Cheers

omg we have the same stuff going on.

Elaborate on the B12 for me please (what does it change to your body?)

------------ QUOTE ----------
TO MEMBER DUUL.
if you see this, PLEASE tell me if you know whether the test that found you are deficient in molybdenum mesured molybdenum directly or that it was some kind of analyzing of data of other thinhgs that where mesured which led to this conclusion by the lab analyst. thank you

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/SUOX
''Sulfite oxidase is a homodimeric protein localized to the intermembrane space of mitochondria. Each subunit contains a heme domain and a molybdopterin-binding domain.''
iron problem from accutane been broth up . the iron might be deficient acording to some science reported cases, or another option (according to internet forum info which might be wrong. messege 32- http://forums.phoeni...ou.15209/page-2 ) iron can be unusable because of an manganese deficency ,this manganese is needed for iron to be relase from the liver,and the manganese deficincy can be beucase of b2 deficency.
so is it the manganese and b2 that being more needed, or the molybdenum itself is deficient also?

TO MEMBER DUUL.
if you see this, PLEASE tell me if you know whether the test that found you are deficient in molybdenum mesured molybdenum directly or that it was some kind of analyzing of data of other thinhgs that where mesured which led to this conclusion by the lab analyst. thank you
-----------------------------

some of DUULs sides were interesting... all to me indicate collagen/Mn thyroid/Mn deficiency:

-Minor Tintinitus (slight ringing of ears) Ears tested: Hearing is fine.
- TMJ / Jaw clicking (hurts to yawn sometimes)
- Cracking joints such as Knees and thumbs. (loud knee cracks, thumbs always want to crack)
- Low Libido
-Eye floaters (happened 3 years after accutane)
-Dry Eyes (sometimes they are in the way, my eyes are never white - always some pinkness or eye irritation)
-Changes in Body Temperature, Sometimes feet are ice cold, other parts of my body are warm.

It just said LOW on Moly. that's it.