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I can't claim much expertise since I don't suffer from testosterone effects, but here's where I'd start if I had this problem:
Date hotter girls (increases male sexual response)
Take tongkat ali, bodybuild, cultivate aggression and anger, do a combat sport
Eat a lot of shellfish and avoid the usual non paleo foods
Check out the bodybuilding forums for ways to play with hormones. They know the most about it. Look specifically at stuff dealing with sexual side effects and testerone. Maybe describe your problem and ask for help.
Also, one reason that testosterone loss may have more funding and interest than general accutane stuff is that it's more specific, and the people affected aren't incapable of earning money and living functional lives, yet they're still highly motivated to fix it. No sex drive gives a man little use for his disposable income.
Hey.
My thoughts regarding this are:
- Scientists may be looking into it, but that's purely guesswork. We should actively seek different revenues in order to improve things for ourselves, i.e. find out allergies and different issues (i.e. thyroid/adrenal problems)
- Propecia seems to be more likely to cause sexual dysfunction, and as many people suffer hairloss, it won't go un-noticed. Of course, we know Accutane does the same, but 'tane does a lot of different things, so this seems to be ignored/missed.
- Water fasting is most likely a good thing. I've already said I heard of someone on acne.org talking about doing 3 seperate 30-day fasts, and they said they were 75% better. Sergio, who I've mentioned, did one and it appears his anxiety/depression/constipation went away. He still has brain fog. He's also doing colonics and takes supplements. Personally, I'd be happy to skip meals, but it's not recommended for adrenal fatigue.
- I know I'm unlikely to repair my dry-eyes, and possibly hair-loss and such. Unless we can get oil production again, these will probably just get worse.
Chin up though.
I can't claim much expertise since I don't suffer from testosterone effects, but here's where I'd start if I had this problem:
Date hotter girls (increases male sexual response)
Take tongkat ali, bodybuild, cultivate aggression and anger, do a combat sport
Eat a lot of shellfish and avoid the usual non paleo foods
Check out the bodybuilding forums for ways to play with hormones. They know the most about it. Look specifically at stuff dealing with sexual side effects and testerone. Maybe describe your problem and ask for help.
Well, see this is my point; everyone over at Propeciahelp has done all of that already and it hasn't worked. You should know more about this than them (not being smart), because your people have suffering for much longer, and thus, you should have access to a larger data base.
Also, one reason that testosterone loss may have more funding and interest than general accutane stuff is that it's more specific, and the people affected aren't incapable of earning money and living functional lives, yet they're still highly motivated to fix it. No sex drive gives a man little use for his disposable income.
Testosterone drops have happened to Accutane victims, too. It is actually rarer for a Finasteride sufferer to end it all than it for an Isotretinoin afflictee. So, what does that tell you ? By and large, we are harder hit and incapicitated.
Hey.
My thoughts regarding this are:
- Scientists may be looking into it, but that's purely guesswork.
Scientists are most definitely looking into this problem. Guesswork is what you are indulging in.
Hey Coolguy: I hope you are doing a little better, buddy. There should be some news in the not too distant future.
When you've exhausted the low hanging fruit, then it's time to turn to the scientists.
The point I think you're missing is that mainstream western techniques have a far greater chance of success once everything else has been done re diet and supplementation. This is true both for diagnosis and treatment.
Like I said, I know next to nothing about severe drug injury induced testosterone deficits, and I don't intend to learn about it.
As far as water fasts, the problem is building up enough resources and freedom to be able to pull it off - particularly if there's a risk of hypertoxicity from recirculation of accutane stored in fat, or of liver incapacity to handle the stress. You need time, money, life situation stability, and possibly medical supervision.
I'm going to use my elimination diet to build up the necessary foundation for such a trial. I hope it will prove effective for others to use for the same purpose.
I've put further experimentation on hold until I get the liver supplements, and I'm going for job interviews now. Haven't been able to work at a normal job for two years. But now, it's possible. Feels good.
I just had the best performance on the soccer field of my entire career yesterday, and I've been playing my whole life.
When you've exhausted the low hanging fruit, then it's time to turn to the scientists.
The point I think you're missing is that mainstream western techniques have a far greater chance of success once everything else has been done re diet and supplementation. This is true both for diagnosis and treatment.
This will be my last post on this for a while. I haven't missed any points if we are being honest, as evidenced by the lack of successful retorts
People have been where you are now, and they have run out of road. You are not going to google your way out of this with a neat liver supplelment and zinc.
Modestm - Unfortunately you are probably right in what you say. Obviosuly others on here have tried things with little success, and only successful supplements are managing certain symptoms, usually to little degree. I gave up on supplements long before I found this forum, because they just simply didn't work and give me the health benefits they are claimed to. Since coming on this forum I gave it another go but I've been kidding myself thinking I'd get anywhere.
It occurs to me that maybe my diet seems unappealing because it's so random. There's actual a sound evolutionary basis for it, albeit it draws from a minority viewpoint among evolutionary theorists. Point being, it's not something I randomly came up with. Instead, I systematically tested and rejected pretty much every dietary paradigm out there before find this one.
For reference, my long term stable diet is 1. scallops daily, one package; 2. unlimited white rice; 3. lean fish - cod, perch or pollock; 4. shrimp for flavor/texture. Boiled, no burning or seasoning.
It's fairly uncontroversial among evolutionary theorists that the transition to eating larger animals with higher percentages of body fat may have been a major turning point in human evolution that allowed us to develop larger brains and smaller stomachs. Compare large ape guts designed for fermenting fibrous vegetables to the smaller human intestinal tract. The morphology of the human gut suggest that humans are designed to eat animals. And the mainstream theory described above suggests that the adaptation to digest lots of animal fat is more recent.
Going beyond the mainstream view, we can look at the Aquatic Ape / shoreline dweller theory of human evolution, which observes morphological similarities between humans and other semi-aquatic animals, such as pigs, and concludes that humans are adapted to a semi-aquatic environment. This suggests a whole host of dietary recommendations that are borne out by what we know about humans nutrition today. Here are two informative links, one on the Aquatic Ape Theory, and the other on the implications of the shoreline dweller hypothesis for diet.
From genetics we know that pretty recently ancestral humanity was reduced to a small population (around 10-1k breeding pairs maybe 700k years ago). This fits well with catastrophism, an alternative geological and cosmological school of thought. This bottleneck(s) might well have played a role in forcing our ancestors to the shorelines .For example, a supervolcanic eruption, ice age, and/or solar/magnetosphere event might have rendered survival impossible on the interior, forcing our ancestors to survive by living on the shoreline. If such catastrophes were regular, then we might've adapted to such a life over a much longer period of time.
On the shore, shellfish are one of the easiest and most plentiful animal food sources for unskilled hunter gatherers, as any fan of the TV series Survivor knows. Ancient shellfish middens (giant piles of discarded shells) confirm that this was a major food source for shore-dwelling hunter gatherers. See the shoreline dweller diet link above for ample evidence that present-day humans are still specially adapted for life on the beach.
One feature of shoreline life is that seafood tends to be pretty low fat. Also, starches are available, including marsh growing starches, of which rice is one example. In the absence of animal fat, humans must consume carbohydrates or plant fats to avoid protein poisoning. Evidence indicates that modern adult hunter gatherers strongly prefer starchy and fatty plant sources to sweet fruits or fibrous vegetables (what we traditionally think of as veggies, e.g. salads.)
Of all the dietary paradigms I tried, this is the only one that yielded results, and highly impressive results at that. That may just be a coincidence, since my intrahepatic cholestasis biases me towards low-fat diets. But I am far more restricted than just fat - there is almost nothing I can safely eat. The fact that this paradigm predicts literally all of the things I can safely eat suggests that maybe this is the "original" or "default" human diet, the one our gut can digest with the least difficulty, and that results in the largest micronutrient surfeit.
That's why I am so eager to see whether a shoreline dweller diet can yield results for others suffering from a wide range of ailments - not just accutane injuries, but all manner of chronic conditions.
If this turns out to be the case, it could revolutionize not just evolutionary theory, but also present-day medical practice, both alternative and (eventually) mainstream.
Modestm - Unfortunately you are probably right in what you say. Obviosuly others on here have tried things with little success, and only successful supplements are managing certain symptoms, usually to little degree. I gave up on supplements long before I found this forum, because they just simply didn't work and give me the health benefits they are claimed to. Since coming on this forum I gave it another go but I've been kidding myself thinking I'd get anywhere.
Hey, don't lose hope; I know it feels like you are alone in your day to day life battling this, but, we all feel that way; and, there is actually an army of people scattered all over the place just like you.
I am actually getting worse myself; I was initially taking a lot of liver supplements and they were allowing me to function at a diminished capacity - but it was enough. I actually started to develop some rectal bleeding and I had to have a colonscopy. The results came back fine, but I realized I can't self medicate myself out of this. Now I am not working and I am losing a great deal of money every week. My life was really about to take off after all the acne bullshit growing up, and here I am dealing with this.
I have not tried the Maca myself, but I have read over at Propeciahelp that Tongkat Alli, Catuaba Bark and Macuna Pruriens are better. I say that if it seems reasonable - give it a go; but, the consensus is that there isn't anything that works brilliantly, and all the results usually twindle. You have to look out for things which may set you back: one example is soybean isoflavones which inhibit 5-alpha reductase; and, even milk thistle, which is very popular, because it inhibits androgen receptor function. People who have had their Testosterone levels quashed, do not respond to testosterone supplementation for example. It obviously a very complex problem that is way beyond self help.
I've been going to an alternative therapist that does work around the messages you are sending your body and body energy stuff. I've only gone to about four sessions (over 1.5 months) but I'm already immensely better. Learning what sort of messages to send my body in order to heal myself and feel healthier, as well as the body work he does on different muscle groups to make sure your whole body is getting energized. Just thought I'd post that this therapy is indeed working for me (as it has for the friend who referred me to him; her health problems all came under control/ were cured when she saw him). I'm thrilled [Edited image out].
It's two steps forward, one step back. The occasional run of a few days or so, I've gone back to feeling crappy and low-energy, but for by FAR the majority of the last two months now I've had my energy back (or at least dramatically more than I've had the last couple years), no body aches whatsoever, and my digestion has been fine.
So, Andy - What kind of work/massages? What's it called?
A massage would at least reduce stress and tension.
Lol. Then I suggest you try my diet. You appear to have nothing to lose and no other cures on your horizon. And plenty to lose if things continue this way.
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Our story's going mainstream: http://technorati.co...-the-truth-the/
That book came out months ago.
Honestly, it won't make any difference.
It focuses purely on the depression/suicide link with Accutane, and goes back to 2001 where the Author, Doug, fought to get those side effects listed.
The link you've posted is just a promotion of the book.
On 12/18/2011 at 10:12 PM, JosephBuchignani said:Lol. Then I suggest you try my diet. You appear to have nothing to lose and no other cures on your horizon. And plenty to lose if things continue this way.
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O.K., Joseph your intractable strategy has finally won me over; we should all now join the cast of survivor, and live off scallops for a little while. But how are we going to win the immunity challenges with the fatigue and muscle tone loss ? [Edited image out]
On 12/19/2011 at 11:04 AM, Modestm said:On 12/18/2011 at 10:12 PM, JosephBuchignani said:Lol. Then I suggest you try my diet. You appear to have nothing to lose and no other cures on your horizon. And plenty to lose if things continue this way.
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O.K., Joseph your intractable strategy has finally won me over; we should all now join the cast of survivor, and live off scallops for a little while. But how are we going to win the immunity challenges with the fatigue and muscle tone loss ? [Edited image out]
First of all, the people on Survivor living off of speargun caught seafood and rice looked pretty healthy to me. And happy.
Secondly, I have experienced some weight loss while eating only scallops and rice for a month, but I experienced zero fatigue - instead, my energy and mood was the highest it's ever been, before or since. In fact, it was a little bit like being on coke. I'm usually a more laid back person. Everything was more vivid, more fun, I was smarter, etc. I regard a diet of scallops and rice only as an emergency extreme diet - it gives fast recovery but it's not so great in the long term.
My current diet is scallops, rice, lean fish and shrimp. This diet has no fatigue and no muscle loss. You can see my current natural musculature on my blog, which I maintain while doing zero workouts of any kind beyond soccer games.
[Edited image out]
I've been on this diet with little or no deviation for probably close to 5 months. During this time, I've had zero green vegetables, maybe 2-3 sweet potatoes, no vitamin or mineral supplements except vit D and calcium briefly, a week or two of eating white potatoes, an occasional chicken or beef - in short, very little dietary variation of any kind, and less and less as time went on. Even before I discovered scallops, I was only eating rice and different kinds of meat - no green vegetables - for probably another 6 months.
Unlike you, I spent most of my 8 years trying to fix myself without knowing that Accutane was the cause. Instead, I focused on diet. I'm therefore something of an expert on paleo nutrition, and extreme elimination diets. What you think you know about human nutrition, probably ain't so. For example, humans can eat nothing but the same meat from the same animal for years, and as long as it's fatty enough, be completely healthy. I'm willing to bet you think that's impossible. Fact is, the conventional wisdom on human nutrition is completely wrong.
I appreciate that you have digestion problems, and that your current diet assists with/or solves your problems, but it is not up to the task of undoing Isotretinoin damage for the average sufferer. I mean, the very fact that you couldn't connect the dots intially (not being insensitive) is testament to the fact that you were not hit very hard to begin with, and hence, your current success. You do seem a bit thin, and your body would probably benefit from a little more fat. Your chest also seems reasonably tight which is another indicator that you haven't succumb to muscle loss tone ever. My chest was also more taught before this mess.
My problems go far beyond digestion. I wasn't even focused on digestion until year 5, because my symptoms were so broad-spectrum. For example, I had severe emotional deadness, fatigue, brain fog, depression, anger, acne, social anxiety and incompetence, etc. The point is that all of this disappeared when I fixed my diet, revealing my true underlying problem - zero bile production due to a compromised liver. After I fix that, I'll be able to determine whether I have other underlying problems too, such as compromised intestinal lining. Thus dietary optimization permits more accurate diagnosis and more effective treatment.
Your claim that I wasn't hard hit because I didn't connect the dots is wrong on two levels. First, many people only show symptoms well afterwards. Second, there was another reason I haven't stated here for why I wouldn't have noticed the gradual onset of my symptoms, and connected them to the right cause. I'm not going to share that reason here.
As for needing more fat, I'm quite happy to be as cut as I am. There's no reason I should need more fat. Yes, I haven't lost any muscle tone.
On 12/18/2011 at 7:14 PM, Modestm said:Scientists are most definitely looking into this problem. Guesswork is what you are indulging in.
Hey Coolguy: I hope you are doing a little better, buddy. There should be some news in the not too distant future.
hi, Modestm. sorry took a while for me to get a chance to say hi back. i'm not doing a whole lot better to be honest [Edited image out]. i still feel pretty much the same as i did the last time i talked to you. i wish this nightmare would just end for us. i'm so tired going through this everyday. and i know it's been said before but it's not fair. we get to suffer all because of an acne problem we had and we trusted the ones who were supposed to look after our health...our doctors. we look up to these authoritative figures. it's enough suffering that we had to go through a huge part of our life with cystic acne alone!!!
anyways i hope a solution will be found sooner than later. the people who've taken it in the 80's have suffered for FARR too long and i can imagine how difficult it is going through everyday like this. hopefully there will be a solution for them as well as for us recent tane sufferers. one thing that comes to my mind though, sorry it might sound dumb, but if a cure was found, wouldn't the government try everything they can to hide it? if it was found. would we have to keep it in secret? (eg maybe we'd have to discuss the cure through pm, and any mention on these forums of the names of true natural healers who actually cure diseases could unfairly render them as criminals under the law)
anyways I'm really glad you have joined in the thread. you're very helpful and understanding.
i'm so tired going through this everyday. and i know it's been said before but it's not fair. we get to suffer all because of an acne problem we had and we trusted the ones who were supposed to look after our health...our doctors. we look up to these authoritative figures. it's enough suffering that we had to go through a huge part of our life with cystic acne alone!!!
I know buddy - life is hard enough and super competitive these days without this major nightmare. Sometimes we need to view as ourselves as surivivors because we have made it this far (think of all the people who didn't get through their courses because the depression and fatigue became too much). I think our Isotretinoin problem is just a variation on a common theme in the pharmaceutical industry: poorly understood drugs which can create more problems than they rectify. The molecular research that is currently underway will help scientists unravel what is truly happening; and, they should be able to help us get some resolution and also develop safer drugs for the future. This is our fight now and we have to keep going.
Just had my first job interview in 2 years of not working today. Did well. Change is possible.
Also figured out how to control my circadian. I typically shift late. Stay up 1-2 hours later every night, go to bed at dawn.
The solution is to eat breakfast immediately, which shifts your circadian earlier. And stop eating 12 hours before you want to wake up. And avoid blue light at nighttime.
Also, to avoid depression, see some human faces in the morning.
http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/
Honestly, a series of full liver flushes (not just detox) might be our cure. Has anyone actually tried this? I've done a liver detox but never a full on flush. Might be a good idea.
http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/
Honestly, a series of full liver flushes (not just detox) might be our cure. Has anyone actually tried this? I've done a liver detox but never a full on flush. Might be a good idea.
I have completed many liver flushes followed by colonics, and, although they are beneficial they have not been the solution. I had red cracked lips for about 3 years after my last pill, and I believe the flushes helped. I don't believe it is a matter of simple storage (it does play a role), but rather sub-clinical liver dysfunction precipitated by break down in metabolism of the drug. Altered gene expression at the androgen receptor or elsewhere is most likely another mitigating factor.