This is the kind of closed minded looking at everything through a microscope approach that anonyy is talking about. Etretinate is undetectable, after 3 years, right, in what? in the plasma (the blood), don't you understand that all the study's you've posted have not in ANY way disproved what i'm saying. I'm saying it's stored in the FAT and until there is a test that shows the presence of toxins in fat then there is absolutely no way of disproving it. You can talk about half life in plasma but you don't seem to understand it's not relevant to what i'm saying.

Also how do you know mercury only has a half life of 500 days? Presumably they killed this monkey after 500 days and found that mercury was still present in it's system, well what happened if the monkey had lived longer? would the mercury of just miraculously vanished on the five hundredth and first day? just because they killed the monkey after 500 days does not mean it takes a maximum of 500 days for mercury to be removed from the half life. Even if it was removed from the half life it doesn't mean there isn't any present in the fat itself. There are lots of people that have mercury toxicity symptom's for years, just because they're not put into double blind study's doesn't mean they don't exist. Again closed minded, study focused, insular thought process.

Half life is not relevant when we are talking about it being stored in the fat. You seem to suffer from the "only my side effects are relevant" point of view were you can't understand how other people react to vitamin A in foods, because you yourself don't react to it. There are many types of side effects, some people react to retinol, others don't. I'm not saying retinoic acid is stored in everyone post accutane, i'm saying the ones that react to retinol in foods very strongly, those are the ones that still have the molecule in their system. There are different sides, different severity's, different reactions, to follow a 'one size fits all' mentality is redundant because there are so many different things that go wrong in a organism. It's like saying every windows pc that crashes has the exact same problem, do you understand were i'm coming from or am i wasting my time with this and are you just going to throw more studies at me?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1827343/?i=3&from=/9298137/related

even back in 1991 investigations were made in to isotretinoin's effects on 5ar activity.

This is the kind of closed minded looking at everything through a microscope approach that anonyy is talking about...

...Half life is not relevant when we are talking about it being stored in the fat. You seem to suffer from the "only my side effects are relevant" point of view were you can't understand how other people react to vitamin A in foods, because you yourself don't react to it. There are many types of side effects, some people react to retinol, others don't. I'm not saying retinoic acid is stored in everyone post accutane, i'm saying the ones that react to retinol in foods very strongly, those are the ones that still have the molecule in their system. There are different sides, different severity's, different reactions, to follow a 'one size fits all' mentality is redundant because there are so many different things that go wrong in a organism. It's like saying every windows pc that crashes has the exact same problem, do you understand were i'm coming from or am i wasting my time with this and are you just going to throw more studies at me?

Chico, I've never known you to be irrational like this. He may be focusing on his own sides, but you're being a hypocrite by saying that you are the one that is absolutely right about it being stored in the fat and living on indefinitely. Obviously nothing is going to be 100% the case for /everyone/, and you do have a point there.

I think our time would be better spent focusing on what we can prove though, versus what we can't. As always this has been a forum for what works for each individual, and maybe someone else can benefit from hearing those things. No one should be judged for saying what has helped them or what they think.

I am interested in hearing if the epigenetic issue is hyper or hypo-methylation, but it seems that if Accutane made changes, we would need to methylate the changes, not hold methylation back. The study I linked talks about the benefits of methylating, but also the perils of overdoing it, so I'm still wondering how we can approach that.

Firstly i'm not irrational, the only time i've been irrational on here has been one time to Crank and i've apologised to him for that. Secondly I don't object to other peoples theories, in fact i like reading tryingtohelp and Dubya's posts. I'm interested in the methylation and homeopathic imprint theories, i like reading anonyy's post's and what he has to say on the matter.

I'm just sceptical when someone says "hey i've cured myself by applying grape seed oil once" and then everyone goes out and buys grape seed oil, and then it's "hey i took 15mg of biotin and all my side effects like aching joint's, dry skin, hair loss, it all went away" and then everyone goes out and buys biotin and so on....

It's a perpetual loop where it's about buying supplements and not about understanding the root cause. Most of us have hypervitaminosis A side effects, most of us do not disclose the length and severity of side effects we have, so when someone cures something, what have they cured? and what did they have in the first place?

On 10/18/2014 at 1:49 AM, Chico Esposito said:

in fact i like reading tryingtohelp and Dubya's posts. I'm interested in the methylation and homeopathic imprint theories, i like reading anonyy's post's and what he has to say on the matter.

Well, you really shouldn't waste too much time investigating the homeopathic imprint theory because I made it up to parody anonny.

I looked for the most extreme examples to support the idea that Accutane may still be present after years removed and posted them.

The study about half life of mercury in monkey brains was especially relevant because brain matter is considered a fatty tissue.

Something you might find interesting is that cadmium and plutonium have half-lives of 40 and 100 years, respectively, in bone.

So, it is possible for a foreign substance to remain in lieu of cell-turnover. I was wrong about that, but have to argue that Accutane still cannot be considered among the same league as a heavy metal, especially since it occurs naturally in low concentrations and has naturally occurring metabolic enzymes.

Granted, etretinate was observed in blood after 2 1/2 years, but that was the most extreme example, and it was noted that this was likely due to that particular patient's "adiposity":

EtretinatePersistent Serum Levels After Long-term Therapy

[Edited link out]

"In 47 patients who received long-term etretinate therapy, we measured serum etretinate concentrations from one to 244 weeks after the discontinuation of therapy. The earliest posttreatment, nondetectable serum concentration of etretinate was observed at five weeks after treatment. Detectable serum concentrations (0.05 to 1.2 g/dL) were observed more than two years (108, 111, 131, 136, and 150 weeks) following the discontinuation of therapy. Sequential serum concentrations obtained on eight individual patients were used to determine half-lives for this late-phase elimination. The median half-life for the 12 curves obtained was 12.5 weeks (range, 5.3 to 24.8 weeks). Since etretinate is stored in fat, we compared each patient's deviation from ideal body weight as a measure of excess body fat with various pharmacokinetic factors of etretinate elimination. Overweight patients tended to have slower elimination, maintain higher serum concentrations, and clear etretinate later."

Here is a study of etretinate's half life in adipose tissue. Remember that Accutane is much less lipophilic, so its ability to dissolve in, and remain in, fat tissue is likely much lower:

Retinoid concentrations in skin, serum and adipose tissue of patients treated with etretinate*

[Edited link out]

"Synthetic and natural retinoids were analysed in epidermis, dermis, subcutis and serum of twenty-seven patients treated with etretinate (0610 mg/kg/day) for 136 months. The concentrations of etretinate (including its major metabolite) in serum and normal-appearing epidermis were 150600 ng/ml and 50350 ng/g, respectively. The serum and epidermal values were significantly correlated (P<005). The drug progressively accumulated in the subcutis attaining a maximum value of 15,500 ng/g. After the treatment, etretinate disappeared from the epidermis within i week. By contrast, the drug remained in the subcutis for several months after cessation of treatment. The epidermal composition of endogenous retinoids changed during etretinate therapy as reflected in an increased ratio of 3-dehydroretinol to all-trans retinol "

Unfortunately, that was all the information made available in the abstract. The study went on for 36 months and it was said that etretinate remained detectable in subcutis up to "several months" after cessation. The exact data should be available in the full text.

The point of all this being that no theory or idea any one of us comes up with, myself included, should be presented as "irrefutable fact until proven false", unless we all be expected to believe anything.

Quote

I'm just sceptical when someone says "hey i've cured myself by applying grape seed oil once" and then everyone goes out and buys grape seed oil, and then it's "hey i took 15mg of biotin and all my side effects like aching joint's, dry skin, hair loss, it all went away" and then everyone goes out and buys biotin and so on....

It's a perpetual loop where it's about buying supplements and not about understanding the root cause. Most of us have hypervitaminosis A side effects, most of us do not disclose the length and severity of side effects we have, so when someone cures something, what have they cured? and what did they have in the first place?

10,000% agree with you on this!

Firstly i'm not irrational, the only time i've been irrational on here has been one time to Crank and i've apologised to him for that. Secondly I don't object to other peoples theories, in fact i like reading tryingtohelp and Dubya's posts. I'm interested in the methylation and homeopathic imprint theories, i like reading anonyy's post's and what he has to say on the matter.

I'm just sceptical when someone says "hey i've cured myself by applying grape seed oil once" and then everyone goes out and buys grape seed oil, and then it's "hey i took 15mg of biotin and all my side effects like aching joint's, dry skin, hair loss, it all went away" and then everyone goes out and buys biotin and so on....

It's a perpetual loop where it's about buying supplements and not about understanding the root cause. Most of us have hypervitaminosis A side effects, most of us do not disclose the length and severity of side effects we have, so when someone cures something, what have they cured? and what did they have in the first place?

Your response has nothing to do with what I was saying you were being irrational for. Calling people closed minded because they're talking about detectable/undetectable amounts of Accutane in the body when that differs from your view of fat storage is what I was referring to.

I'm glad you're interested in other theories, as it's clear no one person has the answer. It makes me sad to see people rushing off and buying everything mentioned, but at the same time, people are just posting what works for them, like I said. If it helps even one person who rushes out and buys it, it's worth it.

Anyone have any ideas about the methylation issue? The dietary Methionine seems to be a bad thing, at least without being able to isolate the area where you want it.

 

 

Dubya I've asked you before but I forgot what you said. Do you know whether we are dealing with a case of over or under methylation, or is it a combination depending on which gene is involved? My research is definitely slowed in rate due to RSO.

please discuss in a calm/peaceful manner. None of us want to be here spending hours a day on this forum to start with, especially if we're going to have to deal with abuse everytime.

I don't know to be honest. The few studies regarding isotretinoin's epigenetic effects state "aberrant methylation patterns" and such. I'm not sure if it has been established whether it generally causes hyper- or hypo- mehtylation. In theory, if a gene is actively being transcribed, it may become demethylated, and if transcription is shut down for a long period of time, it may become hypermethylated. I don't know if isotretinoin elicits it's effects on methylation status through this mechanism, or if it directly effects DNMT enzymes. I haven't been reading up on it as much lately, so there is probably something I'm forgetting.

@Nick, Interesting that you mentioned methionone. Diets high in animal products containing methionone have been speculated to promote DNA methylation by increasing available methyl groups:

Assessing the effects of high methionine intake on DNA methylation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16702343

Foods highest in methionone: http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000084000000000000000.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1827343/?i=3&from=/9298137/related

 

even back in 1991 investigations were made in to isotretinoin's effects on 5ar activity.

Wow. Thanks for posting that. Someone on propeciahelp pointed out that I had a low 5a-THF/THF ratio in a urinalysis test, similar to what is described in that pubmed article.

You have to take in various factors like for instance how can a drug exert it's effects over time if it's no longer in the body? if you had hypervitaminosis A it's because you had too much vitamin A in your body, if you remove the vitamin A you correct the problem, the toxicity doesn't stay after the offending substance has been removed.

If we are still suffering with the same effects as on accutane, then it's either accutane has changed our DNA inexplicably forever or it's still there, and i refuse to believe the former. If it has changed my DNA why doesn't it change it throughout my entire body, why only my skin in small areas?

I like to see a bigger picture, is the liver producing bile? is the colon healthy? are the kidneys working properly? is the lymph flowing? because if any of the detoxification pathways aren't working properly it could affect drug removal. There's also the prospect of vitamin A induced intrahepatic cholastasis, were the drug creates such a toxic reaction in the body that it actually ends up shutting down the livers ability to produce bile, it can be seen in steroid toxicity and when vitamin A toxicity gets severe, it stops the bile itself.

Chico, I completely understand and I considered the same thing for awhile.

That's where epigenetics offers an explanation to how it is possible for a drug's effects to last long after the last dose.

If you have read nothing else on the topic, please read this. Isotretinoin is mentioned in the article, and there have been several studies that have determined the drug can cause epigenetic changes which have come out since it was published:

Epigenetic side-effects of common pharmaceuticals: A potential new field in medicine and pharmacology

http://www.medicinabiomolecular.com.br/biblioteca/pdfs/Nutrigenomica/nutrig-0043.pdf

Here's a good discussion of epigenetics that isn't quite so heavy if you don't have a background in biology:

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/epigenetic-influences-and-disease-895

An epigenetic change doesn't necessarily mean "forever", and it's not the same as an alteration in the actual DNA sequence. It can also be cell-specific, so it may not effect your entire body. This may also explain the wide variation in side effects we all suffer.

There are also new therapies being developed, and even discoveries made into the effects of nutrition and exercise on these epigenetic mechanisms.

It doesn't mean we're all stuck in a hopeless situation if it's true.

 

. The man who yelled in front of Roche building to then copy/paste Roche & co funded studies on forums.

You were right about something for a change. Hadn't noticed Gary Peck was one of the co-authors in the first study on etretinate. Doh! Curse me to hell.

I was always right, except at the beginnings of my posts maybe, some people just aren't ready to understand things how they really are. You waste your energy on symptomatic reasonings, it's like burning your hand with a candle and doing analysis/studies on the effects it has on the flesh instead of simply removing it. Everything affect epigenetic, epigenetic is here to make the body responsive/adapt to changes & the environment, when you burn your skin it dies and grow back stronger, when you walk barefoot the skin get thicker, those changes (accutane too) aren't forever and can't be precisely artificially altered back.

As long as you don't understand the two side of chemistry and the lymphatic system, you can't understand what's the causes of health issue.

You don't need to take accutane to have those issue it provoque, there is no epigenetic who get "blocked", the body adapt to changes, always in the positive way to survive and get back to normal in time when required, when things get back to balance and when it can in a unclogged toxins-free medium (if we talk about true epigenetic "changes", not simple gene expression temporary alteration/perturbation by a toxin which can be only very short term, as long as it's there, epigenetic is more deep and takes more time and a "perfect" medium to recover). You can't force the body to change it's gene expression artificially and expect to be healthy, and even less precisely specificaly for 13-cis-retinoic acids in the precise afflicted cells in the perfect amount/level. Man-made synthetic drug will be always and forever crap, we won't ever do better than what our own body already does, and we don't even understand 1/10 of it.

I called my doctor about the growth hormone results and he asked me to come to appointment, because we have things to talk. Apparently the results weren't okay, unlike the nurse said. If Accutane has caused deficiency of growth hormone, what actually happened in the body more precisely? I wouldn't want to treat symptoms instead of cause again.

Has anyone had any success with ridding themselves of the deep laugh line wrinkles that accutane (roaccutane here in australia) has caused me?? This has been the worst side effect after IBS that it has given me.

Anyone that has experience in restoring the fat on face would be much appreciated! I'd give them thousands of dollars if it works for me.. seriously.

I was up to page 50 on this thread before I became busy a few weeks ago.

looks like I only have another 239 to go.......................................

there is no epigenetic who get "blocked", the body adapt to changes, always in the positive way to survive and get back to normal in time when required

wouldnt the lymph system do this as well?! Classic charlatan double talk. everything gets unblocked except for the magical lymph system. PLEASE STOP!

stop with your nonsense.

What anonyy's saying is the body does what it does to survive, if a toxic substance can't be removed, then the body will go into maintenance mode to protect itself. It's like standby mode on a computer, the body intrinsically understands when the environment is hospitable to flourish and when the environment is dangerous to down regulate to self preservation, it's adaptation, it's a safety mechanism.

tryingtohelp2014 come back trying arguing with me when you will grow up, until then keep your pathetic egotic ignorant posts for yourself. You can continue to buy your petroleum pricy supplement if you like to, nobody care. We are here to talk about health, not children uneducated ego fights. If you want to insult and continue your ego fight do it in private message.

ps: i didn't understood anything of your schizophrenic post, you mix everything. You should learn what is the cellular environment, from what fluids it is composed and how he's cleansed, blood doesn't cleanse cellular waste, toxins and mutated dead cells from accutane, but maybe it's the wind from your perspective, idk, better take pretroleum chemical supplements to cleanse and get better.

You should read what is the definition of a charlatan, because charlatan is a person who want to sell their man-made synthetic products like you do. I propose a physiological diet, natural detoxification techniques and herbs that are not an obligation and if you can't afford them, you can still pick them up in nature or grow them yourself. You are at the mercy of those company who doesn't care about anything except money, isolates supplements that stimulate temporary and exhaust their co-factors reserves of the body who will kill you in the long term, taking those high dosage isolates will do like accutane and alter the epigenetic too. You are an uneducated clueless child, you doesn't have the level/knowledge to argue with me without insulting and lying, so please, don't try.

There is a guy who is menacing to kill himself because of accutane atm, i had to call french 911 with the address someone gave me, will see what happened tomorrow...

that's what result from ignorance and deceptive misinformed speech people do on the internet, next to this crappy killing machine modern "medicine", it's really sad.

I'm up to page 57 of this forum. Whatever happened to indigorush josephbuchagini and jmsil? Chico, good to see some of the originals on here! I'm up to page 55 whih is back in 2012.

I'm going to comb through every page looking to see if someone has any success with a protocol that I havent tried as yet......

Chico, youve been here for a while, seen any cures for acutane side effects?

Cheers

Indigo seems to have taken a break from this forum and Joseph said he found a way to manage his symptoms.

Jmsil is no longer with us unfortunately.

Anonny, thanks for trying to help the guy. I really mean that.

Emergency arrived at the good time to help him. Just hope he won't do that again.. there is a way to get better, there is no need to go to those extreme reaction.. but when you are completely loosing yourself i can understand that it's difficult to make the good decisions.

I'm up to page 57 of this forum. Whatever happened to indigorush josephbuchagini and jmsil? Chico, good to see some of the originals on here! I'm up to page 55 whih is back in 2012.

I'm going to comb through every page looking to see if someone has any success with a protocol that I havent tried as yet......

Chico, youve been here for a while, seen any cures for acutane side effects?

Cheers

I'm way ahead of you. I would say just read from page 200. I've read this thread from start to finish, took forever. It's all cyclical, from 200 onwards covers most things!

I'll let you read and make your own conclusions. I only say this because if I recommend anything and/or everything, I'll be slated by someone. You've probably seen it yourself from the first 50 odd pages.

Anywayyyyy,

Here's a counter theory for those who see resurgences of sides when fasting, exercising, consuming vit A etc.

Is it not possible that there is in fact no metabolite left whether it be in adipose tissue or circulation? And that in fact there has been some persistent epigenetic change that alters the metabolism of vitamin A. Thus, whenever you undertake a period of fasting this brings about a release of Free Fatty Acids and thus as Vitamin A is fat soluble it is also released. Same goes for vigorous exercise; elevations in Growth Hormone leading to increased lipolysis and what ya know; Vit A release.

Also going by the principle of Occam's razor, the epigenetic hypothesis supersedes the 'unknown stored metabolite' (USM) hypothesis. Simply because the epigenetic theory could explain both those who react to Vit A and those who don't. Whereas the USM only explains those who react to Vit A.

It just seems more plausible given the evidence. Again, I'm not trying to invite a tirade of abuse. Simply trying to draw conclusions from available evidence.

Another bit of conjecture is that if the article I linked previously is correct and suggests that 'hypermethylation' jams transcription up in certain areas and we are looking to get transcription flowing again. Would it be wise to actually have a diet free from methylation substrates thus allowing a 'clean state' to emerge. Then reintroduce substrates and hope methylation occurs as it should. I know this is RIDICULOUSLY FAR FETCHED to make a correlation but CDnuts on Propeciahelp followed a raw vegan diet (free from methionine) and also several fasts and then moved onto paleo before noticing improvements.... To be honest, that is a stretch in logic for me. So I'm not promoting it, just thinking aloud.

Also Chico,

Your views seemed to be aligned with anonny's more than most. Just out of curiosity are you following his protocol; raw vegan, flushes, etc etc.? If so, any notable sustained improvement?

I'm just asking because it would be handy to have several individuals in all of the recommended treatment modalities. I'll admit I've tried following raw vegan 3 times now, each time I improve by a week. 1st time was 3 weeks, 2nd 4 weeks, 3rd 5 weeks. I probably would have lasted longer if I wasn't now the perennial stoner which lowers will power and very hungry. And as much as the pro-stoners like to say it doesn't affect motivation, that's BS.

Vegan diet isn't free of methionine.

"My" protocol isn't raw vegan diet, for example to detox properly you need to avoid nuts & seeds and raw high-cellulose vegetables are bad for us. You need to also avoid stimulant like coffee, too much tea or chocolate, don't do too much excercice .. that's just example, there are some "rules" to allow detoxification & healing process to work, according to your personal glands & organs weakness, it depend on the genetic of everyone.

The point is to last in time, 100% raw vegan isn't possible for most, we need some cooked food. 1month is nothing, you can't have results with it. People with strong reserve can have results in 3 month, others with very weak energy & reserve like me it can take years and with the use of herbs & flush protocols, i struggled 2 years before having results.

The symptoms from fasting are just detoxification crisis and there is a pulling of toxins yea, and it burns & you feel symptoms back when it exceed your body eliminative capacity.

Accutane just lead to extreme toxicity/acidosis by killing cells & overwhelming the body eliminative organs. Even if now i feel far far better than i was before, if i take too many proteins or toxic foods for a long period (more than 2-3weeks) i start to get the symptoms back, dry skin/eyes, joint, all the physical symptoms (except libido) but not the depression & extreme fatigue. It just takes time, you can't expect destroying your whole body with chemo everyday for multiple month + having bad lifestyle/diet and being completely healed in 2month.

There is no following to anyone, there is following of physiology, there is no need for theories anymore, we are way beyond that, some people are just to closed minded to being awakened, they can't think outside of the path already in place for them by outside autorities. You can't force the body to do anything by trying to alter his function with chemical drugs and hope to get better, that's the basis to understand.

 

I'm up to page 57 of this forum. Whatever happened to indigorush josephbuchagini and jmsil? Chico, good to see some of the originals on here! I'm up to page 55 whih is back in 2012.

I'm going to comb through every page looking to see if someone has any success with a protocol that I havent tried as yet......

Chico, youve been here for a while, seen any cures for acutane side effects?

Cheers

 

I'm way ahead of you. I would say just read from page 200. I've read this thread from start to finish, took forever. It's all cyclical, from 200 onwards covers most things!

 

I'll let you read and make your own conclusions. I only say this because if I recommend anything and/or everything, I'll be slated by someone. You've probably seen it yourself from the first 50 odd pages.

 

Lol sounds good but for the fact that I also want to hear everyones story. Its like they are all here right now in the present through such things as indigos youtube vids and all that. Fascinating stuff. Just read how indigo made with his gf on page 70. Touching.

Makes me wish I had a gf, but unable to, probably from anxiety and stuff that I blame on roaccutane.

Indigo seems to have taken a break from this forum and Joseph said he found a way to manage his symptoms.

Jmsil is no longer with us unfortunately.

Anonny, thanks for trying to help the guy. I really mean that.

Please tell me that jmsil didnt kill himself.

listen, we should stop all of this epigenetic theory talk once and for all. they have a cheap genetic test with all of these methylation SNPs. if 10 of us with continuing long term side effects would get tested, and we could compare these SNPs that deal with these defects, we could find out once and for all,

Its $99 at 23andme.com spit into a tube, and in a month, they will send you your raw genetic readout.

please, i urge everyone on here that can to try this. ive already sent mine in.