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On 1/27/2014 at 7:15 AM, Dubya_B said:Submitted for your approval anonyy:
DNA Methylation Does Not Stably Lock Gene Expression but Instead Serves as a Molecular Mark for Gene Silencing Memory
[Edited link out]
This directly contradicts that all persistent DNA methylation is impossible to reverse. Sometimes you just have to nudge things in the right direction to reverse it.
Pretty sure the study referenced in my previous post was pertaining to "permanent" downregulation of a keratin-producing gene involved in causing psoriasis. This was achieved by increasing DNMT1 with CBD. Pretty precise from the sounds of it.
So, long-term epigenetic marks are able to be removed. The question is how. Sometimes one's own body will not do this by itself.
Otto, thanks for sharing this with us. Please keep us updated on how things are going for you.
Can I ask you to list the symptoms you had after tane, and how long ago you first noticed them?
List of post accutane symptons.
To be clear. After 3 years I started noticing it.
Wasnt aware of any post side effects until i noticed my nails didn't grow.
So I thought I was lacking some vitamins, bought some general multi vits and after that my hair started falling out.
It felt like it activated something inside my. It activated the Male Baldness Pattern.
I also noticed my lips dried out ( or burnt up ) when it was sunny instead of the usual cold cracked lips.
I also noticed my hands have extra wrinkles ( old man hands ) but that starts to look better now.
Some minor joint pains now and then, but I want to link that to my lack of exercise.
Symptons I have
- Dry lips
- Hair shedding ( MBP )
- Hand Wrinkles ( I dont care if I have hands looking like a old man, yet the underlying cause I care about )
- Sensitive skin
- Slow Nail growth
I do NOT have
- Sexual Dysfunction
- Irritatable Bowel Syndrome
I will check this site now and then and keep you posted.
On 1/27/2014 at 7:15 AM, Dubya_B said:Submitted for your approval anonyy:
DNA Methylation Does Not Stably Lock Gene Expression but Instead Serves as a Molecular Mark for Gene Silencing Memory
[Edited link out - broken
This directly contradicts that all persistent DNA methylation is impossible to reverse. Sometimes you just have to nudge things in the right direction to reverse it.
Pretty sure the study referenced in my previous post was pertaining to "permanent" downregulation of a keratin-producing gene involved in causing psoriasis. This was achieved by increasing DNMT1 with CBD. Pretty precise from the sounds of it.
So, long-term epigenetic marks are able to be removed. The question is how. Sometimes one's own body will not do this by itself.
Otto, thanks for sharing this with us. Please keep us updated on how things are going for you.
Can I ask you to list the symptoms you had after tane, and how long ago you first noticed them?
Like i said, dna expression induced by something exterior are only temporary, and only the body can reverse it back by himself. Psoriasis as nothing to do with dna.. you just pointed a symptom again.
This article mean nothing as it is intentional with an exterior substance and on cancerous cells, nothing is reversed back as those cells was already naturally like they was. And those cancerous cells are not really considered as a part of the body, they will be eliminated if the body as the possibility to do so, it is a really bad example.
I've been taking the CBD oil for 3 weeks now.
There are some surprises which I didnt expected.
Biggest suprise is I feel good, great actually.
I have energy and my mood is on the positive side.
I dont blame Accutane on my mood because this was pre-accutane.
Maybe its placebo I dont know. Yet it catches me on suprise every day.
y lips are still dried out yet it comes and goes these days.
Can someone explain the Irritatable Bowel Syndrome symptons ?
I know its too early to conclude something, but I feel this CBD is helping me, the CBD is on my side.
Glad you've had positive results from this oil so far Otto. I've been using a CBD oil for about 4 weeks now which is the Cibdex brand. I've not noticed any benefits so far, but my sides are different to yours. I've also been taking RSHO (see what they've done there?!..) for the past week or so as well.
I think I'll order some of the stuff from that side you got yours from an see how it compares!
Something interesting I noted lately. I was looking through the drug product monographs for isotretinoin products; Accutane, Clavus and Epuris, and I noticed that while they all have the same active ingredient, only Epuris mentioned erectile dysfunction as a side effect. This was interesting as health professionals have to let patients know of any potential side effects listed in the monograph, I might have not taken accutane if I knew this was a risk, even a rare one...
So I contacted Epuris to see why it was included, and they told me it was "inappropriately included", and thanked me for bringing it to their attention so they can remove it. there was one case of ED out of 464 patients on isotretinoin in the drug's clinical trial, which is less than the 2% incidence rate required by Health Canada
Anyway, seems shady...especially if they don't remove it after my response...like they know there will be a shitstorm of lawsuits against isotretinoin coming and they want to cover their asses
Glad you've had positive results from this oil so far Otto. I've been using a CBD oil for about 4 weeks now which is the Cibdex brand. I've not noticed any benefits so far, but my sides are different to yours. I've also been taking RSHO (see what they've done there?!..) for the past week or so as well.
I think I'll order some of the stuff from that side you got yours from an see how it compares!
Tanedout I apologize if you've listed them a thousand times already but could you just remind me what side effects you have?
Also what is the total amount of CBD you have taken?
Just looked at Cibdex and you would need to chug at least 1 bottle (500 mg per bottle) of that stuff to get as much CBD as 1 day of a CBD rich RSO and even then you would be missing out on THC and other cannabinoids that help the CBD work. Honestly the best way to do this is to get RSO.
Glad you've had positive results from this oil so far Otto. I've been using a CBD oil for about 4 weeks now which is the Cibdex brand. I've not noticed any benefits so far, but my sides are different to yours. I've also been taking RSHO (see what they've done there?!..) for the past week or so as well.
I think I'll order some of the stuff from that side you got yours from an see how it compares!
Tanedout I apologize if you've listed them a thousand times already but could you just remind me what side effects you have?
Also what is the total amount of CBD you have taken?
My sides are sexual dysfunction (ED and low libido) and brain fog.
I must've ingested a fair bit of CBD in the last 4 weeks since starting on it. I've had most of a bottle of 60ml Cibex (that's 500mg of CBD total), and over 1/3 of a 10mg syringe of RSHO which is 2400mg CBD in the tube so call that 1000mg, so 1.5 grams total. If it does help with things it'll take time. I've got another 3 bottles of Cibdex sat here ready, and the rest of the RSHO so almost 3 grams more CBD.
I've been very encouraged by the studies on CBD which clearly has amazing medicinal benefits for a variety of conditions, a number of which look like they might be of benefit to tane suffers, and the fact that 2 members on this thread have made recoveries from cannabis oil has given me faith in this stuff. The only question is what is the best way to get it?! Probably buying ready made cannabis oil with a 1:1 THC/CBD ratio would be my first choice, but it's not legal most places.
@ Ottovisual I've tried to order some CBD drops from that site, but they only accept bank transfer. Are you based in the Netherlands? If not what payment method did you use? I'm interested to try that oil to see how it compares to the Cibdex. The site claims that the CBD content is only 2.6% which is low, however I'm wondering if they mean it's made from cannabis with a 2.6% CBD content, so the oil would have a much higher percentage of CBD in that case as it's one of the main things you extract.
I've been taking the CBD oil for 3 weeks now.
There are some surprises which I didnt expected.
Biggest suprise is I feel good, great actually.
I have energy and my mood is on the positive side.
I dont blame Accutane on my mood because this was pre-accutane.
Maybe its placebo I dont know. Yet it catches me on suprise every day.
y lips are still dried out yet it comes and goes these days.
Can someone explain the Irritatable Bowel Syndrome symptons ?
I know its too early to conclude something, but I feel this CBD is helping me, the CBD is on my side.
Glad you've had positive results from this oil so far Otto. I've been using a CBD oil for about 4 weeks now which is the Cibdex brand. I've not noticed any benefits so far, but my sides are different to yours. I've also been taking RSHO (see what they've done there?!..) for the past week or so as well.
I think I'll order some of the stuff from that side you got yours from an see how it compares!
Well, I must say, I dont see a big improvement accutane related side effects ea the dry lips, hair thinning, yet.
It helps alot with the anxiety I have. It is definitely a postive mood changer.
What is your dosage ? I'm taking about 12 drops every day but I think I will up that to 15.
Edit:Yes I live in the Netherlands
Just sent an email to the site regarding the percentage of CBD.
Good night
I've been taking the CBD oil for 3 weeks now.
There are some surprises which I didnt expected.
Biggest suprise is I feel good, great actually.
I have energy and my mood is on the positive side.
I dont blame Accutane on my mood because this was pre-accutane.
Maybe its placebo I dont know. Yet it catches me on suprise every day.
y lips are still dried out yet it comes and goes these days.
Can someone explain the Irritatable Bowel Syndrome symptons ?
I know its too early to conclude something, but I feel this CBD is helping me, the CBD is on my side.
Glad you've had positive results from this oil so far Otto. I've been using a CBD oil for about 4 weeks now which is the Cibdex brand. I've not noticed any benefits so far, but my sides are different to yours. I've also been taking RSHO (see what they've done there?!..) for the past week or so as well.
I think I'll order some of the stuff from that side you got yours from an see how it compares!
Well, I must say, I dont see a big improvement accutane related side effects ea the dry lips, hair thinning, yet.
It helps alot with the anxiety I have. It is definitely a postive mood changer.
What is your dosage ? I'm taking about 12 drops every day but I think I will up that to 15.
Edit:Yes I live in the Netherlands
I'm taking about 15 drops 2 times per days, that's half of the dropper tube each time - but in addition also about 1/2 gram of RSHO which is a much thicker oil that comes in a syringe.
I think the CBD oil you are using is possibly better than Cibdex. Cibdex is made from industrial hemp. The oil on that site is made from cannabis, so will contain more THC even though the amounts are low - but I've read THC does interact with CBD and may amplify the benefits.
Just looked at Cibdex and you would need to chug at least 1 bottle (500 mg per bottle) of that stuff to get as much CBD as 1 day of a CBD rich RSO and even then you would be missing out on THC and other cannabinoids that help the CBD work. Honestly the best way to do this is to get RSO.
I don't think many RSO oils would be high enough CBD content to get 500mg CBD per day. The Sativa strain of cannabis is only usually 0.1-0.3% CBD apparently. One of the guys on here used that in his recovery (I don't think people were even talking about cannabinoid content on here at the time, and thats the only sort he could obtain anyway). It took him 3 months to notice any improvement however, and even after 5 he was still slowly getting better but probably longer was needed.
Even proper oil from a Sativa strain is probably under 2% CBD content, so that would be 20mg per day - you would get the same from 4 x daily Cibdex dose. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have the RSO but it's the problem of getting it! Using an Indica strain of cannabis plant you could probably get more like 10-20% CBD in the oil, so 100-200mg per day which is significantly more.
I've just ordered some CBD oil from the place in the Netherlands selling it where Otto got his so will be interesting to compare it! The do international shipping so might be worth a look for others on here too.
Yeah it's definitely ideal to use an Indica strain which are typically higher in CBD. Although there is a sativa strain called Harlequin that can produce a 2:1 ratio of CBD to THC. But calculating %'s from oil (which is a pure cannabinoid extract) is different than calculating %'s from a plant. Hypothetically if a plant is 15% THC and 0% CBD (discounting other cannabinoids) the oil you make from that plant will be 100% THC (Rick Simpson's oil has been tested around 97% THC) and 0% CBD.
So if you make the oil from a plant with 7.5% CBD and 7.5% THC you will end up with an oil that is 50% CBD and 50% THC. You're supposed to take a gram of oil a day so that would be 500 mg of CBD and 500 mg of THC.
A fairly large amount then depending on your weight anywhere from 5000 mg to 9000... thanks for the info.
That sounds about right for a month's supply. The Cibidex clinical trials for epilepsy were using 200-500mg daily.
Tanedout, you have a point though. The guys who said they recovered via RSO probably weren't getting that high of an amount of CBD.
That RSHO brand is damned expensive too. 3 grand for 12 grams.
[Edited link out]It's the best company who offer true natural landrace strain, some of them as been tested 2:1 cbd:thc but it depend on the genetic of every seed, they said 50% chance of getting high/equally cbd, someone tested them somewhere in their forum [Edited link out]
Just looked at Cibdex and you would need to chug at least 1 bottle (500 mg per bottle) of that stuff to get as much CBD as 1 day of a CBD rich RSO and even then you would be missing out on THC and other cannabinoids that help the CBD work. Honestly the best way to do this is to get RSO.
I don't think many RSO oils would be high enough CBD content to get 500mg CBD per day. The Sativa strain of cannabis is only usually 0.1-0.3% CBD apparently. One of the guys on here used that in his recovery (I don't think people were even talking about cannabinoid content on here at the time, and thats the only sort he could obtain anyway). It took him 3 months to notice any improvement however, and even after 5 he was still slowly getting better but probably longer was needed.
Even proper oil from a Sativa strain is probably under 2% CBD content, so that would be 20mg per day - you would get the same from 4 x daily Cibdex dose. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have the RSO but it's the problem of getting it! Using an Indica strain of cannabis plant you could probably get more like 10-20% CBD in the oil, so 100-200mg per day which is significantly more.
I've just ordered some CBD oil from the place in the Netherlands selling it where Otto got his so will be interesting to compare it! The do international shipping so might be worth a look for others on here too.
Did he mention shipping time estimates ?
Someone contacted me personally and he is testing it also.
He will post in about 2 or 3 weeks with an update.
On 1/29/2014 at 1:33 PM, anonyy said:[Edited link out] It's the best company who offer true natural landrace strain, some of them as been tested 2:1 cbd:thc but it depend on the genetic of every seed, they said 50% chance of getting high/equally cbd, someone tested them somewhere in their forum [Edited link out]
I read the same thing. People were talking about plants that came from the same parents potentially having wildly different ratios of cannabinoids. Seems cloning is the only way to get consistent results in some strains. Even then, it's also somewhat dependent on when it is harvested.
One supposedly high CBD strain in particular, cannatonic, appears to have reported long-lasting health benefits, and was said to increase sex drive and lift depression, anxiety and pain without getting one "stoned". The recreational users didn't seem to care for it, but the people using it as medicine thought it was great. Another strain called harlequin seems to have a pretty consistent ratio that is rather high in CBD.
I'm just amazed the more I look into this. Last year I heard all this talk about cannabis remedies and thought it was mostly hype coming from people looking for an excuse to get stoned legally. There might be a lot of exaggerated health benefits, but the science already back up many of the claims.
It's messed-up that an entire class of receptors has been so under-studied because of a stupid stigma. This is the same as ignoring estrogen and androgen receptors because steroids are "bad".
Hope everyone looking into this is taking an objective view and practicing some patience in any case. Good luck.
Isotretinoin administration to human subjects was shown to be associated with increased concentrations of homocysteine, providing a potential metabolic mechanism by which isotretinoin may promote depression. [Edited link out]
Homocysteine is an amino acid that can be generated in response to a toxic or nutritionally deficient diet.
When homocysteine is increased in the blood, it is linked to massive inflammation and neurodegeneration!
In Alzheimers disease and many other chronic diseases, we find a significant increase in homocysteine in the blood tests. Since homocysteine is a powerful excitotoxin and neurotoxin, elevated homocysteine levels have been found to make symptoms of Alzheimers disease and other chronic conditions worse. The metabolic breakdown components of homocysteine alter the NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor sites, leading to multiple negative effects, including free radicals and a massive inflammatory cascade!
These free radicals and inflammation can trigger an "autoimmune response" (corrupted cells destroyed by the immune system) in which the patients immune system attacks the thyroid gland and/or other body systems.
High homocysteine means that the mechanisms of your body called "methylation" goes wrong, which suggests multiple health imbalances.
To understand methylation, think of the human body as a car: methylation is the spark plug, without it, everything stops because methylation is involved in more than one hundred biochemical reactions in our body. Neurotransmitters are greatly affected by the methylation and therefore effects hormones but also the ability of the body to detoxify itself, etc..
The concentration of this amino acid in the blood and urine, increases when there is a liver failure (insufficient functioning of liver cells).
Some mesurable link between accutane, dna, acidosis, toxicity, liver and diet.
On 1/30/2014 at 4:26 PM, anonyy said:« Isotretinoin administration to human subjects was shown to be associated with increased concentrations of homocysteine, providing a potential metabolic mechanism by which isotretinoin may promote depression [Edited link out]
« Homocysteine is an amino acid that can be generated in response to a toxic or nutritionally deficient diet.
When homocysteine is increased in the blood, it is linked to massive inflammation and neurodegeneration!
In Alzheimer™s disease and many other chronic diseases, we find a significant increase in homocysteine in the blood tests. Since homocysteine is a powerful excitotoxin and neurotoxin, elevated homocysteine levels have been found to make symptoms of Alzheimer™s disease and other chronic conditions worse. The metabolic breakdown components of homocysteine alter the NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor sites, leading to multiple negative effects, including free radicals and a massive inflammatory cascade!
These free radicals and inflammation can trigger an "autoimmune response" (corrupted cells destroyed by the immune system) in which the patient™s immune system attacks the thyroid gland and/or other body systems. »
« High homocysteine means that the mechanisms of your body called "methylation" goes wrong, which suggests multiple health imbalances.
To understand methylation, think of the human body as a car: methylation is the spark plug, without it, everything stops because methylation is involved in more than one hundred biochemical reactions in our body. Neurotransmitters are greatly affected by the methylation and therefore effects hormones but also the ability of the body to detoxify itself, etc.. »
« The concentration of this amino acid in the blood and urine, increases when there is a liver failure (insufficient functioning of liver cells). »
Some mesurable link between accutane, dna, acidosis, toxicity, liver and diet.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/B_vitamins_and_homocysteine.htm
There is some evidence that B vitamins, including folic acid, B6, and B12, may help lower blood levels of a substance called homocysteine. Why is this important? A good deal of research has implicated high homocysteine levels in heart disease and stroke. One analysis of several studies found folic acid cut down homocysteine levels by about a fourth, according to a 2002 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association. When folic acid was combined with vitamin B12, homocysteine levels sank another 7%.
Just a quick search.
Quite an interesting paper,
The influence of isotretinoin on brain metabolism has been directly investigated using PET FDG, a technique that maps regional differences in glucose uptake in the brain. Twenty-eight subjects with acne were imaged before and after four months treatment with 13-cis RA or antibiotics (13 with 13-cis RA, 15 with antibiotics). Patients were also assessed for depression using the Hamilton Depression Scale (Ham-D). This study revealed that four months of 13-cis RA treatment led a to significant reduction in brain metabolism in the orbitofrontal cortex (Fig. 3),174 a region that has been associated with depression.
In the case of patients reported to the Norwegian Medicines Agency, single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) of the brain was performed in 15 cases who reported lasting neurological symptoms. Altered brain function was seen in all cases involving altered or reduced frontal lobe blood flow.173 Ten of these patients were evaluated to have organic brain damage.
Yea there is multiple possible cause.
Isotretinoin administration has also been shown to affect metabolic pathways, alterations of which have been linked to depression; two examples are given below involving biotin and homocysteine. Biotin, a member of the B vitamin family (vitamin B-7) is a required nutrient that is involved in the biosynthesis of fatty acids, gluconeogenesis, and metabolism of amino acids. Side effects of biotin deficiency include hair loss, conjunctivitis, neuromuscular dysfunction, skin changes, neurological dysfunction, and of note for this review, depression.
These are mine side effects. Dry skin, Hair loss.
I will add vit B complex to the CBD oil regim.
Yet there is nothing about Sexual dysfunction which affected some users. Maybe the Sexual dysfunction is an side effect of the decreased orbitofrontal function / brain fog ?
Isotretinoin administration has also been shown to affect metabolic pathways, alterations of which have been linked to depression; two examples are given below involving biotin and homocysteine. Biotin, a member of the B vitamin family (vitamin B-7) is a required nutrient that is involved in the biosynthesis of fatty acids, gluconeogenesis, and metabolism of amino acids. Side effects of biotin deficiency include hair loss, conjunctivitis, neuromuscular dysfunction, skin changes, neurological dysfunction, and of note for this review, depression.
These are mine side effects. Dry skin, Hair loss.
I will add vit B complex to the CBD oil regim.
Yet there is nothing about Sexual dysfunction which affected some users. Maybe the Sexual dysfunction is an side effect of the decreased orbitofrontal function / brain fog ?
I would say this is unlikely but I actually have been wondering if just having depleted serotonin can the be the cause (serotonin has tons of receptors in the frontal lobe). Apparently serotonin is needed to regulate the hypothalamic pituitary axis which regulates the neuroendocrine system. So if the HPA is screwed up you will have messed up pituitary hormones like some of us have which can lead to sexual dysfunction.
SSRI's can cause similar problems to ours and I just read an article stating that in order to compensate for decreased serotonin reuptake the brain begins producing less serotonin (60% less serotonin in certain parts of the brain they found in this study they did on rats). Also when I took 5-HTP i woke up with more frequent erections than normal (normal for me now is 0).
The issue is how would finasteride cause this? Possibly by depleting progesterone which is known to boost serotonin levels. Maybe there is a relationship between allopregnanolone and serotonin. I'm not sure. I would say this is probably an unlikely cause but just something I've been thinking about the last couple days.
In the unlikely event that this IS the cause, CBD has been shown to repair brain damage and normalize serotonin levels.
Did he mention shipping time estimates ?
Someone contacted me personally and he is testing it also.
He will post in about 2 or 3 weeks with an update.
No shipping estimate for the Apollyon CBD oil given no, but it was posted yesterday so I expect to receive it next week sometime. Will post up when I've got it and tried it!
I'm currently taking about 0.3 - 0.5 grams of RSHO and also Cibdex a couple of times per day for CBD and I don't notice anything at all immediately after taking either. I know some people have reported they feel calm or less anxious soon after, but I've noticed nothing, I will be interested to compare to the Apollyon CBD oil. Interestingly I have noticed libido is higher at the moment than it has been for some time. I don't know if this is related in any way. I've also been going wheat/gluten free since the start of the week (primarily to see if this helps with brain fog), so not sure if that's a factor. Too early to say really.
Regarding the decreased orbitofrontal functionality potentially being linked to brain fog and sexual dysfunction - I found that I only got brain fog about a year after coming off 'tane. The sexual sides started sooner.
Interesting to read those articles suggesting methylation cycle could have been affected. There was talk of this over on the ATM forum towards the end of last year. I read up on this, and this site suggests a 'methylation cycle restart protocol';
http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Methylation_Cycle
I got all the suggested sups for this Oct/Nov and took them for 30 days but didn't notice anything. Might restart with them as sounds like B12 is really worthwhile stuff.
I'm currently taking about 0.3 - 0.5 grams of RSHO and also Cibdex a couple of times per day for CBD and I don't notice anything at all immediately after taking either. I know some people have reported they feel calm or less anxious soon after, but I've noticed nothing, I will be interested to compare to the Apollyon CBD oil. Interestingly I have noticed libido is higher at the moment than it has been for some time. I don't know if this is related in any way. I've also been going wheat/gluten free since the start of the week (primarily to see if this helps with brain fog), so not sure if that's a factor. Too early to say really.
Regarding the decreased orbitofrontal functionality potentially being linked to brain fog and sexual dysfunction - I found that I only got brain fog about a year after coming off 'tane. The sexual sides started sooner.
Interesting to read those articles suggesting methylation cycle could have been affected. There was talk of this over on the ATM forum towards the end of last year. I read up on this, and this site suggests a 'methylation cycle restart protocol';
http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/CFS_-_The_Methylation_Cycle
I got all the suggested sups for this Oct/Nov and took them for 30 days but didn't notice anything. Might restart with them as sounds like B12 is really worthwhile stuff.
The study I saw on anxiety had people taking 400 mg of CBD. Also saw a study of 600 mg, and heard that 200-300 mg is a good dose for anxiety. You're taking .3-.5g of an oil that contains 24% CBD which comes out to 75-125 mg of CBD. You may just need to take a higher dose to get the positive mental benefits of it.