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Goosnargh, I like your paradigm.
If we modify it a bit, we get something like fluid handicap as a major feature of accutane. Dryness of mucosa, various connective tissues, dehydration, cessation of bile. Almost medieval in its broadness, but there you go.
Then, as a secondary effect of "dryness" (that's actually a thing in Chinese medicine, ha), massively increased sensitivity to pro-inflammatory inputs.
The solution to this axis of the problem would be hydration with seafood salts and minerals, drinking lots of water, low inflammation diet, and ?semi? permanent detox with UDCA.
I think the skin, eyes and hair problems are a step outside this orbit, and the psychological impacts and sexual side effects are two steps outside. But I also think it's very hard to solve those problems while the dryness axis is still in effect. In other words, curing the dryness may be necessary, but not sufficient.
The solution to this axis of the problem would be hydration with seafood salts and minerals, drinking lots of water, low inflammation diet, and ?semi? permanent detox with UDCA.
I think the skin, eyes and hair problems are a step outside this orbit, and the psychological impacts and sexual side effects are two steps outside. But I also think it's very hard to solve those problems while the dryness axis is still in effect. In other words, curing the dryness may be necessary, but not sufficient.
Oh Hufflepuff Joseph, all this overly self-congratulatory pontification bedazzled with space talk and steeped in others hard-fought gleanings is neither here nor there. Do you actually think that your meager intervention of supplying bear bile to your insufficient supplies will deliver you from evil with any semblance of long-term sustainability?
I dont know if the purported quieting of symptoms with crude interventions is really what people perceive; or rather, do they forcibly feign resolution so we can regale our downtrodden minds for even just a little while with a hitherto unforthcoming victory to break the monotony of the inevitable return, because we are all just modest mouse-colored people? Virginia Woolf put it thus, "I wish I could hit upon a pleasant track of thought, tracks indirectly reflecting credit upon myself, for those are the pleasantest thoughts, and very frequent even in the minds of modest, mouse-coloured people, who believe genuinely that they dislike to hear their own praises."
On 6/13/2013 at 12:26 PM, JosephBuchignani said:Almost medieval in its broadness, but there you go.
Occam's razor is how I see it.
You're right it's not just the dryness itself, but it has to be addressed because it puts you into a ongoing deficit due to stress (including fascia/muscle adhesion due to lack of lubrication - I've been ungluing them nearly every day now), inflammation and malabsorption making it near impossible to recover. The rest I believe are rooted in thyroid/adrenals (aka hormones) which are treated with iodine protocol + diet + lifestyle anyway (also time, but l-glutamine can speed things up). I say this mostly because no matter how much I improved things like mood, energy, etc. other aspects didn't seem to budge even when I threw everything at them.
I'm not entirely sure about the bile thing. I went through a round of TUDCA (Aegis) when I started trying to fix things and experienced good results at first but towards the end I wasn't noticing any difference. Adapting to a high fat diet might have helped kick things into gear.
I wouldn't go crazy on seaweed/fish for iodine due to the high amounts of undesirables (mercury, arsenic, bromide etc.) but for an initial test it might be useful.
Goosnargh-
Firstoff, you have the best profile picture i've seen yet.
Secondly, thank you so much for that interesting feedback!! I've been experiencing the same thing after about one week on it. How much iodine are you taking? I also notice I feel hydrated overall after taking it...so it's not just a superficial feeling of oil on my skin, but throughout my body, including my eyes.
Random update: I am back with more UDCA. Recently started taking psyllium husk and benotnite shakes in the morning and in the evening, they helped somewhat. I am just a little more than a week in so lets see how that helps. The problem I have now is that you are not supposed to take any medication or supps within 2 hours of taking bentonite clay. I will probably continue bentonite clay for at least ten more days and than start with UDCA again. UDCA has been the best supp I have tried in a very long time and I am happy to have it in my hands again. My doc told me that I may have to take it long term and then see if the body moves to a new equilibrium, that's what I am talking about.
Seems UDCA is highly effective. If any of ya'll really can't source UDCA online, I'd probably be willing to ship it at cost from Hong Kong. It's available over the counter here. But let's see if good online options exist first.
What happens with me is when i eat retinol in any form, it pushes the accutane out of the receptors and into my bloodstream / lymph / circulation, whatever happens, it creates an almost immediate toxic shock. The question is just what amount of accutane is stored in my body? If it's months worth of the 80mg dose i was prescribed then your talking about potentially 1000's of mg of accutane flushing back into the system at one time. The results of which have been very damaging to my health. If i was to paradoxically take accutane again (never in a billion years but for the sake of this hypothetical argument say i did) i would supplement with UDCA /TUDCA to protect my liver, as it's the most powerful liver protector. So much so that people running heavy oral doses of steroids cycle this in with the methylated compounds to protect themselves.
Milk thistle doesn't work, bitters do help the frequency in terms of going the toilet but do nothing to remove the accutane, saunas don't work in my experience. If you are going to eat retinol then it's only logical to supp udca/ tudca to protect the body from the toxic shock. As far as dryness goes, i've completely removed the evening primrose and other oils because the effects were minimal and have started taking udo's choice oil. My skin is oily like pre accutane now, so if thats your only side effect it's something to consider at least.
Goosnargh-
Firstoff, you have the best profile picture i've seen yet.
Oh, Hufflepuff 2. In what known universe does a bear rocking out with a faux guitar trump the mysticism and enchantment evoked by a seahorse? I dont expect an answer, because there isnt one, other than a unicorn and they are mythical. And FYI: Seahorse is the title given to 54 species of marine fish in the genus Hippocampus. "Hippocampus" comes from the Ancient Greek hippos meaning "horse" and kampos meaning "sea monster".[
well just because you don't expect an answer, doesn't mean you don't get one. Clearly a bear rocking out on a guitar trumps the mysticism of a sea horse....especially if it's on a modest mouse album...... OHHH SNAPPPP. OH NE SHE DITTTINNNTTT. I'm just kidding, but the bear playing guitar is much more aligned with my belief in what is mystical in this life....kind of like a velociraptor (spelling?) riding a unicycle. Any analysis of the mysticism ruins the mysticism.
On 6/14/2013 at 11:36 AM, sdro123 said:well just because you don't expect an answer, doesn't mean you don't get one. Clearly a bear rocking out on a guitar trumps the mysticism of a sea horse....especially if it's on a modest mouse album...... OHHH SNAPPPP. OH NE SHE DITTTINNNTTT. I'm just kidding, but the bear playing guitar is much more aligned with my belief in what is mystical in this life....kind of like a velociraptor (spelling?) riding a unicycle. Any analysis of the mysticism ruins the mysticism.
Ooooh, well you went there. You know that Isaac Brock has referred to himself as "white trash," and "dumber than the dirt on the ground"? His lyrics on the other hand, are critically acclaimed as genius and Nietschzean inspired. I really don't feel I need to defend the epic seahorse further.
On 6/14/2013 at 11:22 AM, gladiatoro said:[Edited link out]
You are harder to get rid of than the Olsen twins. Ben Gibbard hit the point when he said: Our memories rely on a faulty camera in our mind. I dont think you have a camera in there, but rather an art school flunky trying to sketch beyond his or her abilities. I know you mean well, but you are repetitive son.
And, please don't you go dissing Death Cab for Cutie, or Ben Gibbard for that matter, just like Zooey Deschanel did.
What happens with me is when i eat retinol in any form, it pushes the accutane out of the receptors and into my bloodstream / lymph / circulation, whatever happens, it creates an almost immediate toxic shock. The question is just what amount of accutane is stored in my body? If it's months worth of the 80mg dose i was prescribed then your talking about potentially 1000's of mg of accutane flushing back into the system at one time. The results of which have been very damaging to my health. If i was to paradoxically take accutane again (never in a billion years but for the sake of this hypothetical argument say i did) i would supplement with UDCA /TUDCA to protect my liver, as it's the most powerful liver protector. So much so that people running heavy oral doses of steroids cycle this in with the methylated compounds to protect themselves.
Milk thistle doesn't work, bitters do help the frequency in terms of going the toilet but do nothing to remove the accutane, saunas don't work in my experience. If you are going to eat retinol then it's only logical to supp udca/ tudca to protect the body from the toxic shock. As far as dryness goes, i've completely removed the evening primrose and other oils because the effects were minimal and have started taking udo's choice oil. My skin is oily like pre accutane now, so if thats your only side effect it's something to consider at least.
I would like to discuss oils a little, any input welcome. Are there any oils you guys recommend trying for acne and recovery.
Tried and worked: Olive oil, peppermint oil aids digestion
No effect: Coconut oil, Linseed oil, Walnut Oil, all the other mainstream oils available in the average supermarket
Want to try: Black currant seed oil, evening primrose oil, grape seed oil, fermented CLO
Also I recommend peppermint oil and oregano oil to fight disease, they work wonders for me
What happens with me is when i eat retinol in any form, it pushes the accutane out of the receptors and into my bloodstream / lymph / circulation, whatever happens, it creates an almost immediate toxic shock. The question is just what amount of accutane is stored in my body? If it's months worth of the 80mg dose i was prescribed then your talking about potentially 1000's of mg of accutane flushing back into the system at one time. The results of which have been very damaging to my health. If i was to paradoxically take accutane again (never in a billion years but for the sake of this hypothetical argument say i did) i would supplement with UDCA /TUDCA to protect my liver, as it's the most powerful liver protector. So much so that people running heavy oral doses of steroids cycle this in with the methylated compounds to protect themselves.
Milk thistle doesn't work, bitters do help the frequency in terms of going the toilet but do nothing to remove the accutane, saunas don't work in my experience. If you are going to eat retinol then it's only logical to supp udca/ tudca to protect the body from the toxic shock. As far as dryness goes, i've completely removed the evening primrose and other oils because the effects were minimal and have started taking udo's choice oil. My skin is oily like pre accutane now, so if thats your only side effect it's something to consider at least.
I would like to discuss oils a little, any input welcome. Are there any oils you guys recommend trying for acne and recovery.
Tried and worked: Olive oil, peppermint oil aids digestion
No effect: Coconut oil, all the other mainstream oils available in the average supermarket
Want to try: Black currant seed oil, evening primrose oil, grape seed oil, fermented CLO
Also I recommend peppermint oil and oregano oil to fight disease, they work wonders for me
I'd recommend Udo's choice, people get caught up in the whole fish oil thing. It only contains EPA and DHA, these are two essential fatty acids that the body can synthesize from ALA and plant based omega 3's. It's like for example vitamin A, it comes in the form of carotene and retinol. Carotene contains natural antioxidants that are all different, based on the colour of the vegetable / fruit. These different antioxidants protect the cell from oxitave stress. The body takes a small amount of these carotenes and synthesizes retinol with it, then it gets converted to a tiny tiny amount of retinoic acid in the cell. It's a closely monitered system but taking carotene is much better than retinol because the carotenes have various antioxidants and it allows the body to synthesize only the amount it needs.
Likewise this can be expanded to omega fats, plant based like Ala contain lignans and various anti cancer agents, the body converts what it needs to EPA/ DHA and so on. It's actually the bad omega 6 fats in peoples diets that are messing people up, if you replace the cooked processed omega 6's with unprocessed, unheated omega 6's you get more benefit. The ratio should be 2:1:1. For people with no sebum post accutane, the basic building blocks of sebum are omega 3 and omega 6, the over use of oleic acid as found in olive oil can mess up the ratio's and acne can result.
The first thing i'd take if i had acne would be udo's choice oil and i'd make sure that i avoided fatty meats in favour of chicken, lean fish etc, i'd also eat avocado's in salads and only non heated good fats, i'd grill all my meat, as to avoid cooking in fat. I'd stay away from moisturizers and chemicals in general, wash my face with only a simple cleanser like cetaphil. I'd take 4 tablespoons of udo's choice per day, to correct an imbalance of omega 3/6/9 and acne will clear up pretty quickly. Of course the diet would also be 100% natural foods and i'd drink 8-10 pints of water per day, that's a very important step.
What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.
I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!
On 6/14/2013 at 5:16 PM, Believe said:[Edited image out]
Want to try: Black currant seed oil, evening primrose oil, grape seed oil, fermented CLO
Well, you have a cacophony of 5@-reductase inhibitors right there, and no one has said a word. You would think after all the poison admonishments that have been made here, people would actually care a little.
On 6/14/2013 at 7:13 PM, sdro123 said:hahha genius? every artist is called that at one time or another. Don't believe everything you read. People say that Kanye is genius...HAHA. Personally I believe trent reznor is genius...based upon my own inclinations...not something i read on the internet [Edited image out]
The Virginia Woolf connection makes them special without even trying. I'm sure the genius categorization vis-a-vis the mouse has been much more prevalent than the same categorization directed at Victoira Legrand, for example (I respect her). I think they are both great, so lets no split hairs. Also, my usage of their tour posters (dates and venues listed) here, is more about the Woolf passage and its relevance to behavior demonstrated here. People claiming that they have this because its boosts their ego, for example, when they are getting the basics wrong on a daily basis. Another alarming occurrence is people not doing their own search with authoritative sources, but, who will then take advice from misinformed charlatans on the net, because they decided long ago that they do not believe everything they read on the net.
MET. FUCKING. FORMIN.
I was doing so well... but now I guess the metformin has kicked in, and my hair loss is as bad as ever, and my skin is dry, and I'm tired all the time and I can't sleep. This has been the last straw for conventional medicine.
Oh, Metformin. Hopefully thy damage is not permanent.
clearly we are all below you Cam. We don't know anything. It sucks being a Lemming.
What supplements are beneficial while on Accutane? Currently I'm taking vitamin C, E, D3 and B5, Zinc and omega 3. I thought about quitting vitamin B5 now that i ran out of it though.
I was prescribed Accutane when other medications and treatments failed. Hope you guys can help!
You might want post this question somewhere else as we don't promote accutane in this thread! Accutane is toxic! Sorry!
chico what specific foods cause this retinol reaction, and which do not? i'm skeptical but open to convincing.
For example, shrimp has 4% vit A RDA and yet causes no ill effects for me.
Butter, Cod liver oil, calfs liver, lambs liver, cheese, fatty fish like wild salmon and sardines things like that. Shrimp is low in fat and contains only a small amount of retinol, so it might not cause any symptoms with you Joseph, in my case my retinol sensitivity is heightened and i would react to even 1 egg yolk or a small amount of shrimp. My eyes would start to get dry out and my skin would become drier, face would flush and get redder etc.
In my case all foods with retinol cause problems with me, although shrimp causes nowhere near the problem butter causes, because it contains much less retinol. My reaction is directly proportional to the amount of retinol in the food. Everyone has different side effects, but if someone suffers from hairloss only, and ingests lots of retinol, their hair will start falling out much worse. Regardless of the side effect you have if you take retinol post accutane it will aggravate it.
In your case increasing your fat intake will only increase your bile output, as bile gets released in the presence of dietary fat. UDCA being the strong liver protector that it is, could offset some of the symptoms of eating retinol foods, and subsequently the side effects of doing so. It will also offset the problems with eating fatty foods. If accutane is stored in the fat and retinol aggravates it by pushing it back into the bloodstream, then high fat intake could also mediate some of the damage. As fat soluble toxins get bound to fat, a higher fat diet would bind more accutane offering more protection.
chico what specific foods cause this retinol reaction, and which do not? i'm skeptical but open to convincing.
For example, shrimp has 4% vit A RDA and yet causes no ill effects for me.
Regardless of the side effect you have if you take retinol post accutane it will aggravate it.
I have hard evidence the problem extends way beyond this. On my second course of Accutane my doctor prescribed 60mgs a day - that was double my first dose. At that second dosage, I couldn't even leave the house because the entire portion of my chin area was scabbing up and bleeding. I went through the extreme sensitivity to food issue for about 3 years after the crash with beta-carotene (the body uses only what it needs is more bullshit).
When the sensitivity issue passed I became incredibly intrigued. I began experimenting based on the notions of perhaps resetting receptor expression (androgen, RAR, retinoid X, etc). Well guess what, at doses of 100mgs+ of brand name Accutane; I had no classic signs whatsoever. I even had nocturnal erections on that dose, which I dont even have when I am clean. I hope you finally concede that things change, but the condition persists unwaveringly.
Here are some recent studies that will help temper the UDCA love fest. They also discuss the meekness of past studies.