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jnt867,
no real treatment, to be honest. i tried l-tyrosine (amino acid) under the instruction of a trichologist when he though it was telogen effluvium, but that didn't help. have also tried increasing my protein intake and took iron supplements, both to no affect (i wasn't iron deficient, just on the lower side of normal).
my hair loss rate fluctuates quite regularly, more so a few years ago than now. i noticed hair shedding decrease within a few weeks off the drug but it soon returned.
other symptoms within those 3 weeks of tane included muscle aches, sore back, dry lips, eyes, and the world-famous purge. nothing i wasn't expecting outside of the hairloss.
it seems tane related hair-loss isn't as uncommon as most derms would have you believe. has there been study into this?
Max-Wunsche - harden the fuck up. being bald doesn't mean you can't 'reach your potential'. you make it sound like you lost your legs or something.
results are as follows:section A: sections show a non-scarring process, at the isthmus, 47 follicles are counted, of which 12 are vellus or near-vellus in proportion and 6 of these minaturised telogen hairs
section B: sections show a non-scarring process. at the isthmus, 46 hair follicles are counted, of which 20 are vellus or near-vellus in proportion and 6 are telogen.
conclusion: the finding favours androgenetic alopecia with mild associated telogen shedding.
i would greatly appreciate if somebody could shed some light on my circumstance. i'm particularly interested if somebody could disambiguate by vellus / telogen count. i still don't know what it means. does the doctor's conclusion adequately reflect the section results?
please, anyone, i'm getting pretty desperate.
cheers.
Hey man let me try and explain your results the best i can for you.
Firstly, let me just say most people experience diffuse AA from accutane, especially when it continues for a long time. Diffuse AA is an auto immune condition like the orginally suggested.
Here is where the hard part arises. Due to estrogen being protective against TGF beta 2 (an inflammatory cytokines which appears to be up regulated along with many others) which initiates the diffuse AA, this accutane hairloss can slowly present itself as male pattern baldness.
As i said this is because of the protective nature of estrogen which we lack, women with accutane hairloss have this aspect to protect the frontal hair from slowly being whittled away. Let me assure you though, any man or woman, given the same hormones would suffer accutane hairloss in the same way we all do/will. which is recession up to a norwood 2 scale, with extremely slow developement of vellus hair across the entire scalp.
With the vellus to terminal ratio on your biopy, this simply means that inflammation has slowly made the hair follicle produce less and less terminal hair, to a point where some have become vellus (miniturised is another term used). Telogen is obviously hairs in the resting stage, again this is brought on by inflammation and the hair being attacked by our own immune system.
Having said all of this, if you find you Don't lose hair from your entire scalp, then you could still have male pattern hairloss. But as i said most of us lose hair from across our entire scalps, which although not impossible, it is very unlikely to be male pattern hairloss.
Some of us, like me lose hair from our entire body, this reflects the nature of alopecia areata.
What you will find is that with time the ratio of vellus to non-vellus continues to favour the vellus hairs, as the inflammation runs riot.
This is why i have been using a topical steroid for about 6 months now and my hair hasn't declined atall since using it.
May i ask, where were the two biopsys taken from? i presume one from the top of the scalp and one from the lower portion of the scalp? in which case you need to suggest diffuse AA to them. Because that would given exactly the same punch biopsy results as yours.
You could have save us from going thru this pain but you didn't want to. How selfish can you get? Sigh...
It isn't his job to sit round a forum moniter for people suffering hairloss and tell them to come off the drug.
Max seriously man you can't keep blaiming everyone else. Atleast accept some responsibility yourself.
If i was to pm everyone telling them to stop accutane because it is poisen, eventulaly i would be banned from the forum because not everyone wants to hear this. I do it in the best way i see possible. I warn plenty of people, but if i sit and tell everyone their hairloss or other side effects will be permanent and that they should stop this instance i would be a dictator and as i said my account wouldn't last long.
Sigh, Lamarr you are right in a way and I know by swearing would never change anything, but I just can't stop myself from doing it. I know most of the people here will feel that I'm stupid to even think of commit suicide, but trust me it is hell everyday and it doesn't help that I suffered from depression due to bdd even before accutane. Lamarr, I know you understand what bdd is and you should understand that people who suffer from this diasease focus on their looks the most and world never accept a single flaw.
I was angry when precision response mention that "you make it sound like you lost your legs or something". Maybe hair loss was nothing serious compare to losing legs to him, but it is very serious to me. Trust me, I will rather have cancer than hair loss. Looks is far too important to me that I rather die than be ugly for the rest of my life.
I couldn't funtion properly mentally at all and It has been so long since I last went to town. Guess I would not be able to hold on long enough for world cup 2010.
I want to say to everyone here in this thread that I'm truly very sorry for the evil and selfish things that I said earlier. I really am sorry, I guess I just got out of control after hiding in my room for such a long time. I'm going to delete those posts as well.
Dude chemotherapy sometimes induces the same hairloss as we have now, after all accutane was originally used for cancer of the throat.
My latest suspicion.... maybe it's in the water? My apartment building for the summer is only a year old and yet my shower head has a ring of blue around where the water comes out.... copper deposits! So i'm wondering if the reversal in my recovery might be due to minerals in the water.... I bought a water softening showerhead and a brita filter... we'll see if that does anything I guess.
I'm going to see my PCP tomorrow and ask him to give me lab orders for checking my thyroid, iron levels, a biopsy and possibly a hair tissue mineral analysis. That way I'll be able to officially rule out other common causes of hairloss.... or if i'm lucky they'll find something miraculous that's causing it which I can just fix through diet or whatever....
My latest suspicion.... maybe it's in the water? My apartment building for the summer is only a year old and yet my shower head has a ring of blue around where the water comes out.... copper deposits! So i'm wondering if the reversal in my recovery might be due to minerals in the water.... I bought a water softening showerhead and a brita filter... we'll see if that does anything I guess.
I'm going to see my PCP tomorrow and ask him to give me lab orders for checking my thyroid, iron levels, a biopsy and possibly a hair tissue mineral analysis. That way I'll be able to officially rule out other common causes of hairloss.... or if i'm lucky they'll find something miraculous that's causing it which I can just fix through diet or whatever....
Hi jnt867,
When I was seeing a trichologist, I had the hair tissue mineral analysis done after I was misdiagnosed with telogen effluvium. My results showed quite a few deficiencies as well as 'toxic levels' of some metals, primarily copper. This copper level was apparently 10 times what it should have been. The report then when on to suggest a plethora of diet changes (some which seemed, i dunno, a little suspect - haphazard if you will), as well as a list of about a dozed vitamin supplements I should consider taking (of course, to be purchased through the company that did the analysis). For me, alarm bells were beginning to ring in my head so I brought the results to my GP, a secondary GP and a dermatologist, all of whom told me these tests/results were near enough to useless and hardly an accurate assessment of mineral / metal levels in my hair / body. I took their advice (over the trichologist - wasn't a tough choice), and largely ignored the report. I've now been seeing a dermatologist.
Just thought I'd share that with you.
results are as follows:section A: sections show a non-scarring process, at the isthmus, 47 follicles are counted, of which 12 are vellus or near-vellus in proportion and 6 of these minaturised telogen hairs
section B: sections show a non-scarring process. at the isthmus, 46 hair follicles are counted, of which 20 are vellus or near-vellus in proportion and 6 are telogen.
conclusion: the finding favours androgenetic alopecia with mild associated telogen shedding.
i would greatly appreciate if somebody could shed some light on my circumstance. i'm particularly interested if somebody could disambiguate by vellus / telogen count. i still don't know what it means. does the doctor's conclusion adequately reflect the section results?
please, anyone, i'm getting pretty desperate.
cheers.
Hey man let me try and explain your results the best i can for you.
Firstly, let me just say most people experience diffuse AA from accutane, especially when it continues for a long time. Diffuse AA is an auto immune condition like the orginally suggested.
Here is where the hard part arises. Due to estrogen being protective against TGF beta 2 (an inflammatory cytokines which appears to be up regulated along with many others) which initiates the diffuse AA, this accutane hairloss can slowly present itself as male pattern baldness.
As i said this is because of the protective nature of estrogen which we lack, women with accutane hairloss have this aspect to protect the frontal hair from slowly being whittled away. Let me assure you though, any man or woman, given the same hormones would suffer accutane hairloss in the same way we all do/will. which is recession up to a norwood 2 scale, with extremely slow developement of vellus hair across the entire scalp.
With the vellus to terminal ratio on your biopy, this simply means that inflammation has slowly made the hair follicle produce less and less terminal hair, to a point where some have become vellus (miniturised is another term used). Telogen is obviously hairs in the resting stage, again this is brought on by inflammation and the hair being attacked by our own immune system.
Having said all of this, if you find you Don't lose hair from your entire scalp, then you could still have male pattern hairloss. But as i said most of us lose hair from across our entire scalps, which although not impossible, it is very unlikely to be male pattern hairloss.
Some of us, like me lose hair from our entire body, this reflects the nature of alopecia areata.
What you will find is that with time the ratio of vellus to non-vellus continues to favour the vellus hairs, as the inflammation runs riot.
This is why i have been using a topical steroid for about 6 months now and my hair hasn't declined atall since using it.
May i ask, where were the two biopsys taken from? i presume one from the top of the scalp and one from the lower portion of the scalp? in which case you need to suggest diffuse AA to them. Because that would given exactly the same punch biopsy results as yours.
Hi lamarr,
Thanks for taking the time to write up such a comprehensive response. I see you are also active on some other related boards - good work.
I can't say I still entirely understand whats going on in terms of the count, but I'll take your word for it.
The two biopsies were actually both taken from the top (crown) of the scalp. Come to think of it, I don't know why my derm took both samples so closely together. Whilst I would say my hair loss is largely diffuse, I tend to think it is slightly exaggerated in the crown area (as well as the front at my hairline). This may just be my imagination.
I guess I may have to look into having a secondary biopsy taken at a different site to be sure that I have this 'diffuse AA'. It certainly appears to fit the bill - I always thought my condition was auto-immune related - why else would the hair shedding begin so soon after commencing Roaccutane?
So - my derm has given me a script for Propecia / Finasteride. In fact, I've actually had the script filled, the pills are in my cupboard. She's given me these on the premise that she believes I'm suffering the early stages of MPB. I'm really hesitant to take another drug like this (a hormone-altering one at that), and by the sounds of things, it wouldn't help much (?). What are your thoughts on the drug, lamarr?
Finally, what would be your suggested course of action for me? What have you been doing and have you been seeing any success? I might also suggest to my derm that I may have diffuse AA and see what she says. You said that the results I received can be mistaken for MPB but can actually be diffuse AA, right?
Anyway, I'm glad someone is taking a proactive and admirable approach to this problem. When I get a few weeks off school I'll happily help contribute.
Many thanks,
PR.
Sigh, the whole point in biopsys when your trying to indentify the cause of hairloss and MPB is a possibility, is that you need to take one from two locations. It sounds like your derm is a retard lol.
I feel for you man you sound as if your trying to get help but no one is offering any. I know the feeling.
The finesteride occassionally is a big help, but for most it offers no help. I have read a few stories of people regrowing full heads of hair from it though. But then most say they have had no benefit.
I think you should keep looking for a better derm. There are a few who know the real cuase of tane hairloss and that can help. But i don't know of any outside of the UK.
I personally use a topical steroid once daily and a home laser system. Not one of those shitty combs you see but a full powered one on par with a clinical laser. It seems to be allowing me to keep most of my hair!! My hairline has actually improved over what it was 6 months or so ago!!
I would say if you can use minoxidil then get this in the highest concentration possible, you can get a product called xandrox, which i would use if it didn't make my accutane induced flushing worse!!. You will likely shed for a while at first, but it will pass. If you can combine this with a topical steroid trust me you will see good results!!
Mark - did you see an increase in shed when you started the laser? I have used it 4 times now and my shed for the last 2 days has been REALLY high - actually clogged up my shower drain both days. I also started using t-flavanone stuff from Goldwell and the t-flavanone conditioner this week as well. I'm trying to remain positive that this is a good sign. I am just really sick of all of this. Just when my shed starts to decrease, it picks right back up again....
I didn't get much of a shed no, but that could be due to me using Something similar before hand. I kind of gently built up my exposure to the laser.
Don't worry about the shedding from the lasers it is a good thing, seriously stick with it and you will see good results!!
Keep an eye on your itchyness and other scalp sensations, as the weeks pass you should see them decrease!!
Haven't been on here in a long time but wanted to mention that I have quite a bit of new growth where my hair had been receding for the past year and a half post tane, this is the first time I've noticed anything like this since stopping tane, it's not from doing anything different except for possibly stopping Propecia five months ago which I think may have increased my receding hairline, anyways I'm not offering much help except maybe the benefits of time and I only use Johnsons baby shampoo. Good luck.
hey guys haven't posted here in awhile but i thought i would stop by to see how everyone is doing. been almost two years since i went on the stuff and started shedding and i'm approaching q-ball status, ha well not exactly q-ball but i would say more of a very apparent diffuse chemo look which has forced me to buzz my hair. The weirdest thing was a few months ago I had a massive shed and started to lose the hair on the back nape area of my head to the point where streaks of scalp now show through. At this point the thickest areas of hair on my head are simply the sides, which are still thin mind you and the front portion, the thinnest is actually the nape area nor has my hairline really receded so there is no way this is MPB what so ever. The hair loss has slowed down, I mean I still lose some and have shedding episodes on occassion but I consider that more the fact that I dont have much hair left to lose. Anyway, I feel for everyone on here as I used to be really upset about my hair loss, but at some point I got over it and it is what it is right now I guess and life goes on. hope all is well later.
I'm not sure gracie but as i'm sure your aware sudden shedding when you have had prolonged hairloss and have just began a new treatment often means regrowth will follow eventually. I would personally only add one new thing at a time so you know what is doing what, maybe you should drop the t flavanone thing for a while? I wouldn't worry about it though because if you read enough on hairloss forums alot fo people go through shedding before they see decent improvement!!
I've buzzed my head as well- it's actually improved things drastically cosmetically. I still am very very thin on top though to the point where it looks pretty much bald... Currently waiting for T-Flavenone stuff to arrive and will try that out soon.
For some reason, any time I get a haircut my shedding goes WAY up for about a week afterwards. I'm talking losing 4 and 5 hairs almost any time I even touch my head. Does the physical action of cutting my hair/running a buzzer through parts of it loosen the roots or something maybe?
Hey all,
I am a first time poster. From what I have read, I have had a different experience than most people on this forum. I started taking tane in Feb of 2007. I did a six month treatment with hair loss starting at the end of July within the last 5 or six days of my treatment. I took biotin and green tea supplements but nothing too extreme. My hair loss continued and then sped up in September and then completely ceased sometime in October (so only about four months). My hair was wavy before, but got really curly and really dry during the four months. After October it went back to wavy and soft.
My hair loss just started again a couple weeks ago. Neary 11 months after the initial loss and eight months after I stopped the first time. My hair is a little drier than two months ago, but it has not gone back to being curly or brittle yet (hopefully not at all). I was wondering if any of you have heard of a TE schedule that is this spread out. The hair loss seems to be fairly spread out, but my left side is definitely getting hit harder than my right side. My hairline has also not receded one bit (I have a birthmark in my hairline that hasn't moved).
hi andy! i'm really hoping that you'll receive this reply. i joined this forum specifically to contact you, so that i could find out what treatment your doctor is using to reverse the hair loss caused by accutane. dire situation that's been going on a LONG time. thank you sooo very much!!
oh my stars!
i can be reached at [Redacted]
MyPoorHair said:I went to my doctor today with a printed list of questions about Accutane hair loss. Here they are, with the answers in bold.How does Accutane cause hair loss? What is the cause of TE? Lack of sebum? Damage to the hair follicles (interruption of keratinization)?
Hair follicles are not damaged. A change to certain chemical receptors - none related to hair loss - makes them more responsive, and this causes a "shock" to the body. Lack of sebum is also a factor.
How long does hypervitaminosis A last? In other words, how long does the excess vitamin A remain in my body? Does eating foods containing vitamin A prolong the hypervitaminosis?
2 months. Eating foods with vitamin A does not make a significant difference. To that point, women are allowed to get pregnant six months after Accutane.
Does Accutane decrease the amount of biotin produced by the liver? If so, do biotin supplements help?
Possibly. I was advised to take mega-doses (2.5mg) of biotin. She also recommended protein drinks!
In general, does Accutane accelerate MPB? Is miniaturization a function of time or of physical cycles?
Yes, Accutane can accelerate MPB by prompting the growth of new, crappier hairs after the old, good ones are shed. MPB is a function of time. One does not progress toward MPB with each new cycle, but generally through one's lifespan. In other words, at a specific age.
My hairs are fine all over my head, not just on my crown. To what extent does Accutane miniaturize hair follicles? What about "hair abnormalities"?
No clear answer. "Hair abnormalities" does not specifically refer to anything.
Explain in general the relationship between Accutane hair loss and MPB.
By shedding anagen hairs originally destined to remain in the head for 2 to 6 years, one begins growing new hair that is affected by MPB. In other words, by shedding hair through telogen effluvium, one's hair jumps forward to a cycle affected by MPB.
How many patients have you seen recover from Accutane hair loss?
All of them. She has had only six patients out of hundreds lose hair.
In terms of months, what is the shortest and longest amount of time of recovery?
Shortest amount of time: 6 months. Longest: 8 months.
My scalp is itchy and flaky. Why?
Dandruff! Caused by Accutane dryness. She recommended anti-dandruff shampoo.
My face has become slightly more oily recently. Does the extra oil indicate the effects of Accutane are wearing off? If so, is this the initial sign of hair recovery?
Yes!
My nails have pits on their surface. Could this be alopecia areata?
No.
So: The hair should grow back. Guys with hair loss in pattern areas might be predestined to suffer MPB, but not necessarily. If MPB concerns you, as it does me, Propecia and Rogaine are the treatment options. I urge men to investigate Propecia's side effects: not only impotence, but possible breast enlargement [!] and changes to the shape of one's penis [!!]. My doctor said that none of her many patients on Propecia have suffered these side effects, and that the drug is a really safe one.
Yeah. Like Accutane was safe.
Hope this helped!
dear 'mypoorhair', or whoever has an answer for me!
i posted earlier and addressed my post to 'andy' but i probably got the name wrong. i am REALLY hoping that i can find out what 'mypoorhair's doctor was using to reverse the accutane induced hairloss (dire situation that's been going on for YEARS after discontinuing treatment...with a 25 year old female who once had thick, extremely healthy hair!!!). i'm definitely looking for a natural treatment, but would love to know what 'mypoorhair' doctor used. does anyone have any good results from using biotin, or anything else? especially after it was falling out for years after treatment, with absolutely NO regrowth since fallout began. thank you eternally!!!
i can be reached at [Redacted]
MyPoorHair said:I went to my doctor today with a printed list of questions about Accutane hair loss. Here they are, with the answers in bold.How does Accutane cause hair loss? What is the cause of TE? Lack of sebum? Damage to the hair follicles (interruption of keratinization)?
Hair follicles are not damaged. A change to certain chemical receptors - none related to hair loss - makes them more responsive, and this causes a "shock" to the body. Lack of sebum is also a factor.
How long does hypervitaminosis A last? In other words, how long does the excess vitamin A remain in my body? Does eating foods containing vitamin A prolong the hypervitaminosis?
2 months. Eating foods with vitamin A does not make a significant difference. To that point, women are allowed to get pregnant six months after Accutane.
Does Accutane decrease the amount of biotin produced by the liver? If so, do biotin supplements help?
Possibly. I was advised to take mega-doses (2.5mg) of biotin. She also recommended protein drinks!
In general, does Accutane accelerate MPB? Is miniaturization a function of time or of physical cycles?
Yes, Accutane can accelerate MPB by prompting the growth of new, crappier hairs after the old, good ones are shed. MPB is a function of time. One does not progress toward MPB with each new cycle, but generally through one's lifespan. In other words, at a specific age.
My hairs are fine all over my head, not just on my crown. To what extent does Accutane miniaturize hair follicles? What about "hair abnormalities"?
No clear answer. "Hair abnormalities" does not specifically refer to anything.
Explain in general the relationship between Accutane hair loss and MPB.
By shedding anagen hairs originally destined to remain in the head for 2 to 6 years, one begins growing new hair that is affected by MPB. In other words, by shedding hair through telogen effluvium, one's hair jumps forward to a cycle affected by MPB.
How many patients have you seen recover from Accutane hair loss?
All of them. She has had only six patients out of hundreds lose hair.
In terms of months, what is the shortest and longest amount of time of recovery?
Shortest amount of time: 6 months. Longest: 8 months.
My scalp is itchy and flaky. Why?
Dandruff! Caused by Accutane dryness. She recommended anti-dandruff shampoo.
My face has become slightly more oily recently. Does the extra oil indicate the effects of Accutane are wearing off? If so, is this the initial sign of hair recovery?
Yes!
My nails have pits on their surface. Could this be alopecia areata?
No.
So: The hair should grow back. Guys with hair loss in pattern areas might be predestined to suffer MPB, but not necessarily. If MPB concerns you, as it does me, Propecia and Rogaine are the treatment options. I urge men to investigate Propecia's side effects: not only impotence, but possible breast enlargement [!] and changes to the shape of one's penis [!!]. My doctor said that none of her many patients on Propecia have suffered these side effects, and that the drug is a really safe one.
Yeah. Like Accutane was safe.
Hope this helped!
I wanted to update everyone on my situation, im also one of the first people on this forum and i havent posted in a while, that was because my situation was getting much better my hair was growing back back in feburary after dealing with shedding for about 12 months before then. So in feburary it started to grow back and i was really happy you couldnt see my scalp anymore when i showered, but about a 1 1/2 months ago my hair started to shed again, its starting to notice again my scalp when my hair is wet and stuff and it continues to fall off, i can gently run my hand over my head barely touching my hair and 2 or 3 hairs will be attached to my hand. this is really weird, what does that mean?, I have not been takin anything, except i was taking vitamin b5 for acne control back in march i was takin about 1g of it, it really helped with the acne, but i have stopped takin the vitamin b5 because i was scared that it might be that, that is causing my hairloss again. BTW hair allo over my head is falling out, I've been researching on alopecia areta like lamarr says, and it does make sense, I just dont know if i can get those shots or topical medicines to try. Im going to try rogaine start august first to see if that helps my situation, anyone can shed some light on my situation? PS I started today taking BIOTIN 600mcg. to see if that helps me Im also takin a B 125 complex. any one wanna suggest something for me to try?
also i wanted to inform people of this. http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Alope...ata/default.asp they have information on joing research group for AA you can apply.
mikey, my hairloss also virtually stopped for a little while and now has picked up again. I've started using rogaine all over my scalp to see if it helps any... going to stick with it for six months this time. I have noticed a couple thick new hairs sprout on the hairline almost as soon as I started using it, so I am hopeful that there is at least the potential of regrowth. On top I am virtually bald though- I've definately lost the vast majority of my hair from the traditional MPB areas.
It's also been about two weeks since I started using t-flavenone via goldwell inner effect spray... going to give all of this stuff about six months and see where I get.
i'm still getting really bad itches in very specific locations on my scalp, which don't stop until I scratch them, resulting in three or four hairs falling out
im a male jessie, hey jnt, do you have pictures to share ? i want to see if your hairloss is like mine. I also am loosing hair like you, all over but its more noticeble in the mpb areas. I hate it because im only 22 and i was full head of hair really thick before i took accutane. I hope rogaine works, I won't if taking rogaine will mean that I will have to continue using it to keep the results or I can just quit it after my hair grows back, waht do yuo think?