i'm on 200 mg of zinc hpv chelated

I would not take that much for longer than a couple weeks. That's large enough to cause problems (if it's getting digested). IMHO, zinc is only relevant to the degree you have a nocturnal melatonin surge for it to work with. Less zinc, more/better/regular sleep. You might try taking a smaller dose and timing it when you can get bright light exposure. For example, if you can arrange for lunch to be 1 hours and outdoors, take the zinc pill about 30 minutes into it.

the only problem is i live in southern quebec and we don't get a lot of sun here

You're about the same latitude as me in Seattle, and I doubt you have less sun. Direct sun is not required. The intensity of the light and the spectrum (blue, blue-green, especially) are what matter. Even on cloudy days, the light outside is almost always significantly more intense than indoors. If you don't believe it, look at the screen on a normal laptop computer while indoors, then carry it outside on a cloudy day and see how washed out the screen is. You can also arrange to switch your indoor bulbs to those that have more blue energy and try to put a large amount of very bright lights in whatever spot in the house you spend the most hours.

what do you think of the paleo diet?

I think that once you're not living all day in bright outdoor light, then you get carb malabsorption that interferes with digestion of zinc and tryptophan and leads to acne. In that case, eating fewer of the carbs most likely to cause problems (especially fructose) can improve the acne symptoms. Probably the FODMAP diet would perform better than paleo against acne, since it is specifically targetting carbohydrate malabsorption.

i assume there is something about grains/sugar/dairy that causes acne but how can some people get away with it but not others?

Dairy usually is sugar (in the form of fructose). Refined carbs are good at inducing carb malabsorption. I believe most people can "get away" with it when they happen to get more daytime bright light exposure. If I'm spending my days outdoors, I eat whatever I want, including fructose-laden apples or Coke. If I can't get any regular bright light exposure, then I have to eat very, very carefully to have any hope of keeping the acne away.

how do you feel about about masturbation causing acne?

I don't believe there is any hormonal connection (people generally don't understand that the skin manufactures sex hormones directly and independently from the gonads/ovaries). IMHO, whatever connection exists can only come from either loss of zinc in semen or affect on sleep (melatonin). I doubt any study would be able to show a connection so long as the participants were taking a 30mg zinc pill daily and living in enough bright light to get the zinc digested.

So... why don't you just cut carbs? It's so much easier and more enjoyable.

You sure this isn't the same thing as getting an adequate supply of vitamin D?

The vitamin the sun gives us is vitamin D and the majority of people are vitamin d deficient. I just don't understand how the zinc is coming into play...

i'm on 200 mg of zinc hpv chelated

I would not take that much for longer than a couple weeks. That's large enough to cause problems (if it's getting digested). IMHO, zinc is only relevant to the degree you have a nocturnal melatonin surge for it to work with. Less zinc, more/better/regular sleep. You might try taking a smaller dose and timing it when you can get bright light exposure. For example, if you can arrange for lunch to be 1 hours and outdoors, take the zinc pill about 30 minutes into it.

 

the only problem is i live in southern quebec and we don't get a lot of sun here

You're about the same latitude as me in Seattle, and I doubt you have less sun. Direct sun is not required. The intensity of the light and the spectrum (blue, blue-green, especially) are what matter. Even on cloudy days, the light outside is almost always significantly more intense than indoors. If you don't believe it, look at the screen on a normal laptop computer while indoors, then carry it outside on a cloudy day and see how washed out the screen is. You can also arrange to switch your indoor bulbs to those that have more blue energy and try to put a large amount of very bright lights in whatever spot in the house you spend the most hours.

 

what do you think of the paleo diet?

I think that once you're not living all day in bright outdoor light, then you get carb malabsorption that interferes with digestion of zinc and tryptophan and leads to acne. In that case, eating fewer of the carbs most likely to cause problems (especially fructose) can improve the acne symptoms. Probably the FODMAP diet would perform better than paleo against acne, since it is specifically targetting carbohydrate malabsorption.

 

i assume there is something about grains/sugar/dairy that causes acne but how can some people get away with it but not others?

Dairy usually is sugar (in the form of fructose). Refined carbs are good at inducing carb malabsorption. I believe most people can "get away" with it when they happen to get more daytime bright light exposure. If I'm spending my days outdoors, I eat whatever I want, including fructose-laden apples or Coke. If I can't get any regular bright light exposure, then I have to eat very, very carefully to have any hope of keeping the acne away.

 

how do you feel about about masturbation causing acne?

I don't believe there is any hormonal connection (people generally don't understand that the skin manufactures sex hormones directly and independently from the gonads/ovaries). IMHO, whatever connection exists can only come from either loss of zinc in semen or affect on sleep (melatonin). I doubt any study would be able to show a connection so long as the participants were taking a 30mg zinc pill daily and living in enough bright light to get the zinc digested.

 

what if i reduced the dosage to 100 mg right before bedtime? would that be safe? i really don't want to screw myself over in the future when my skin might get better by itself

how much sunshine would you say i would need to be clear if your theory is correct? i work outside so this would actually be a feasible solution for me, i just need the weather to cooperate

I tried the zinc regimen last year with varied or little results. At the beginning of this year, I've tried the Candida Diet, plus added taking a probiotic, again with varied or little results. Last week, I decided to throw some zinc in the mix, Solgar Zinc Picolinate 22mg 2X daily (not megadosing). The results seem much better this time around, face is less oily, existing cysts have dried up, and faded considerably. The results have been very favorable, it's only been a week, I'll keep everyone posted. On a side note, the Candida Diet helped me drop 15 lbs., so that's definitely been a PLUS!

what if i reduced the dosage to 100 mg right before bedtime? would that be safe? i really don't want to screw myself over in the future when my skin might get better by itself

how much sunshine would you say i would need to be clear if your theory is correct? i work outside so this would actually be a feasible solution for me, i just need the weather to cooperate

100mg daily has been tested on old folks for a year with no ill effects. Can't guarantee it's safe for you. Don't know how much bright light (direct sun in the eyes is not required) is required, but I seem to pretty much need "all day" -- a few hours doesn't do it for me.

So... why don't you just cut carbs? It's so much easier and more enjoyable.

Because the meat I eat has not been roaming the earth, grazing on all manner of wild plant life. Mostly, it's just been stuffed with corn its whole life (in the best case; the worst case is best not thought of). Therefore to get a variety of chemicals that are synergistic with Vitamin D in preventing cancer, I have to eat plant life directly.

Also, I doubt eliminating carbs can actually eliminate acne in most people (not that it matters -- repeated studies show very few people in the world can give up carbs for an extended period of time). Just giving up carbs doesn't address the fact that you're not getting the most important hormonal environmental signal we evolved with: bright light and total darkness. Without the bright light during the day, you won't get your digestive tract going, and I suspect (no studies one way or the other) you would still not get as much zinc and tryptophan digested, nor see a normalized nocturnal melatonin surge (though I've no doubt you can do better than someone who is slamming massive fructose, like via an apple diet).

You sure this isn't the same thing as getting an adequate supply of vitamin D?

The vitamin the sun gives us is vitamin D and the majority of people are vitamin d deficient. I just don't understand how the zinc is coming into play...

As mentioned, I performed my experiments fully clothed and not exposed to direct sunlight (e.g., sitting in the shade with my eyes exposed to half the bright, blue sky). Also, I can reproduce the effect with very bright indoor lights, which emit no meaningful UVB. Finally, my vitamin D levels have been above 50 for years, with no detectable effect on acne. Thus, I've fairly thoroughly ruled out any effect of Vitamin D.

Zinc is necessary but not sufficient because when you live in dim light, carb malabsorption makes it hard to get zinc digested. Zinc is required to make zinc superoxide dismutase, which is highly effective at mopping up the excess superoxide anions that the overactive immune system generates to kill P. acnes. Without enough zinc superoxide dismutase, the excess superoxide anions go on to start killing normal skin cells, leading to all hell breaking loose.

Zinc is not sufficient, because you also need the superoxide dismutase for it to combine with. That requires a normal melatonin cycle (which most modern people don't have), since melatonin stimulates cells to ramp up their production of superoxide dismutase. I can megadose zinc with no effect on acne if I'm also destroying my sleep cycle at the same time (e.g., sleeping in bright light, sleeping only 4 hours, slamming lots of late night caffeine). OTOH, if I live in bright light, I can get enough zinc from food or a fairly small pill (e.g. 10mg zinc) to do the job.

what if i reduced the dosage to 100 mg right before bedtime? would that be safe? i really don't want to screw myself over in the future when my skin might get better by itself

how much sunshine would you say i would need to be clear if your theory is correct? i work outside so this would actually be a feasible solution for me, i just need the weather to cooperate

100mg daily has been tested on old folks for a year with no ill effects. Can't guarantee it's safe for you. Don't know how much bright light (direct sun in the eyes is not required) is required, but I seem to pretty much need "all day" -- a few hours doesn't do it for me.

 

So... why don't you just cut carbs? It's so much easier and more enjoyable.

Because the meat I eat has not been roaming the earth, grazing on all manner of wild plant life. Mostly, it's just been stuffed with corn its whole life (in the best case; the worst case is best not thought of). Therefore to get a variety of chemicals that are synergistic with Vitamin D in preventing cancer, I have to eat plant life directly.

Also, I doubt eliminating carbs can actually eliminate acne in most people (not that it matters -- repeated studies show very few people in the world can give up carbs for an extended period of time). Just giving up carbs doesn't address the fact that you're not getting the most important hormonal environmental signal we evolved with: bright light and total darkness. Without the bright light during the day, you won't get your digestive tract going, and I suspect (no studies one way or the other) you would still not get as much zinc and tryptophan digested, nor see a normalized nocturnal melatonin surge (though I've no doubt you can do better than someone who is slamming massive fructose, like via an apple diet).

 

You sure this isn't the same thing as getting an adequate supply of vitamin D?

The vitamin the sun gives us is vitamin D and the majority of people are vitamin d deficient. I just don't understand how the zinc is coming into play...

As mentioned, I performed my experiments fully clothed and not exposed to direct sunlight (e.g., sitting in the shade with my eyes exposed to half the bright, blue sky). Also, I can reproduce the effect with very bright indoor lights, which emit no meaningful UVB. Finally, my vitamin D levels have been above 50 for years, with no detectable effect on acne. Thus, I've fairly thoroughly ruled out any effect of Vitamin D.

Zinc is necessary but not sufficient because when you live in dim light, carb malabsorption makes it hard to get zinc digested. Zinc is required to make zinc superoxide dismutase, which is highly effective at mopping up the excess superoxide anions that the overactive immune system generates to kill P. acnes. Without enough zinc superoxide dismutase, the excess superoxide anions go on to start killing normal skin cells, leading to all hell breaking loose.

Zinc is not sufficient, because you also need the superoxide dismutase for it to combine with. That requires a normal melatonin cycle (which most modern people don't have), since melatonin stimulates cells to ramp up their production of superoxide dismutase. I can megadose zinc with no effect on acne if I'm also destroying my sleep cycle at the same time (e.g., sleeping in bright light, sleeping only 4 hours, slamming lots of late night caffeine). OTOH, if I live in bright light, I can get enough zinc from food or a fairly small pill (e.g. 10mg zinc) to do the job.

 

thank you 🙂

Great stuff databased! This is the kind of forward thinking I like to see. I haven't read this entire post yet since I'm at work, and I will be spending my entire lunch hour outside

My first thought though was how often I was outdoors as a child. There is a noticeable correlation between my acne, lack of sleep and the decreasing amount of time I spend outdoors. Not to mention sleeping with tv, computer, etc on.

I always kind of knew it too, but why should I have to change my comfortable lifestyle? I just want to take a pill and be cured! It's this lack of responsibility that leads to negative thinking and quick fixes that most likely do more harm than good.

Thank you for researching and taking the time to share. This post really cheered me up

I believe it bad to cut out carbs I did i got acne cause my diet was so bad that I had loads of vitamins missing including zinc and b vitamins and my stomach could not take any food It got really bloated and heavy.So i think getting more sunlight is the best way.Am hoping once my vitamins are back to normal my skin will get better. Am slowly coming off my antibotics.

I did notice when i did have acne that when i sat infront of my sad machine i did not get aspot for 5 days I did not keep with it cause i was so depressed i just wanted to hide in my dark room and cry (silly Me )

(not that it matters -- repeated studies show very few people in the world can give up carbs for an extended period of time)

Can you post one? I'm suspicious.

I think this is the closest anybody has ever come to finding the cause of acne.

Your theory makes sense and is continually being improved. Thank you for following the scientific method

Can you post one? I'm suspicious.

I'll leave you to do the research on something you're interested in. The researcher who did one of the first serious studies to show that Atkins produced weight loss without negative effects on health markers has a video lecture floating around the web somewhere. He points out that if you look at the data in detail, the low-fat people fail to keep their fat percentage down, and the low-carb people fail to keep their carb percentage down -- both groups trend back towards percentages that are not all that different.

Or pick up Kolata's "Rethinking Thin" for a good look into what life looks like at a lab where they do nothing but test diets on real people, year in and year out (spoiler alert: extreme diet changes can't be maintained by the vast majority of people).

That is terrible science, and that's the best you've got for "the whole world"? Come on man. Eliminating sugar is not hard. Have you seen Sugar - The Bitter Truth? Your method is basically a way to help the body detox a poison.

Rather than pointing out people who've done low carb their entire lives, i'll just say I strongly disagree with your bias and leave the thread. Keep up this research though, it's good information and I do find it interesting. It'll come in handy when the carb police arrest me and i'll need to eat my way out of their candy prison.

That is terrible science, and that's the best you've got for "the whole world"?

What, exactly, might "that" refer to? Studying people who sign up to do Atkins, who have a great desire to lose weight and try to stick to the diet, who are given all kinds of help that normal Americans trying to do the same would never get, and who largely cannot maintain the regimen after a year or two? If you have some evidence that large percentages of people can stick to either low-carb or low-fat diets for >=5 years, the folks who study diets for a living would sure like to see it.

But the relevant issue is: why doesn't Atkins cure acne? Some think it helps, some think it doesn't, just as with every acne treatment. I believe it doesn't cure acne because it's only incidentally affecting part of the cause, resulting in significant anti-acne benefits for some, none for others.

That is terrible science, and that's the best you've got for "the whole world"?

What, exactly, might "that" refer to? Studying people who sign up to do Atkins, who have a great desire to lose weight and try to stick to the diet, who are given all kinds of help that normal Americans trying to do the same would never get, and who largely cannot maintain the regimen after a year or two? If you have some evidence that large percentages of people can stick to either low-carb or low-fat diets for >=5 years, the folks who study diets for a living would sure like to see it.

But the relevant issue is: why doesn't Atkins cure acne? Some think it helps, some think it doesn't, just as with every acne treatment. I believe it doesn't cure acne because it's only incidentally affecting part of the cause, resulting in significant anti-acne benefits for some, none for others.

 

Actually, it was so many Atkins dieters posting that it cleared their skin during the last big Atkins phase about 4 years ago that made me look into diet. That, along with my ex-husband developing diabetes, made me realize we can't be eating/drinking so much high GI crap. And I have kept up low to moderate GL diet habits for 4 years. And always will.

So, I live in Wisconsin where eating lunch outside or taking walks after work is almost impossible for 5 months out of the year. Any suggestions during this time? May sound silly but could simply sitting in front of an open window get the sunlight in your eyes enough?

So, I live in Wisconsin where eating lunch outside or taking walks after work is almost impossible for 5 months out of the year. Any suggestions during this time? May sound silly but could simply sitting in front of an open window get the sunlight in your eyes enough?

I've had no luck getting enough light (direct sunlight not required, overall intensity, especially in the blue spectrum is the key) sitting by windows. For all my windows, given nearby trees and buildings and the roof, etc., it's a a fairly small percentage of the amount of bright sky my eyes would be exposed to if I stuck my head about 10 feet outside that window.

I've also had no luck with just a couple hours per day of bright light. I pretty much seem to need it all day long (>8 hours) if I want to eat anything I want (including massive fructose) and still be acne-free.

What you can do (if allowed) is install very bright lighting where you work, using bulbs that favor the blue spectrum (the default bulbs rarely do). If you don't sit in an office for your work, or if they won't let you bring in lighting, that's no help.

I have an idea that it might be possible to achieve the same effect by putting your eyes in pitch darkness for 30 seconds periodically while stuck in dim indoor light (to restore sensitivity to the slow-reacting, intensity-driven cells), but for all I know "periodically" might mean "every 5 minutes", and I doubt anybody's willing be seen constantly shoving the heels of their hands into their eye sockets all day long. :-

Someday I'll try that experiment, but at the moment I just want to enjoy staying acne-free, so I sit in my insanely brightly lit (literally will make you squint) office all day.

If I turned the brightness of my laptop as high as possible, would that help in any way? I also spend a lot of time inside behind my computer because of the work I do. I managed to stay outside for almost 40 minutes today...with my laptop lol.

I haven't read the whole thread, but is this working for people?

Also, wouldn't melatonin supplements do the same as sitting outside all day long?

Edit: another idea. Would getting tons of light one day and none the other be equal to getting normal amounts of light on both days?

If I turned the brightness of my laptop as high as possible, would that help in any way?

If it's so bright it makes you squint, it might, but I reckon such a mythical laptop would have a battery life of about 5 minutes 😀

Also, wouldn't melatonin supplements do the same as sitting outside all day long?

No. It's hard to get melatonin past the intestines (who have their own pool of melatonin and ideas of what to do with it) and it's hard to get the melatonin timed right so it doesn't interfere with pineal melatonin and it's hard to get anywhere near the volume of melatonin that your pineal gland cranks out for hours at night if you have a normal sleep cycle.

Edit: another idea. Would getting tons of light one day and none the other be equal to getting normal amounts of light on both days?

There is evidence for a carry-over effect of perhaps a day of the effects of day-long bright light exposure on digestive parameters. YMMV.

This thread is very interesting but how do you explain the fact that a LOT of people stay indoors all day, get late to bed and STILL don't get acne AND eat almost only carbs ? (I know quite a few personally). Isn't this theory also just a 'symptomatic' one rather than THE underlying cause? Or, in other words: why do certain people react to this (like you did) and others not?

And what about the fact that the background lighting of pc monitors is BLUE light too? Sitting in front of a computer at night is known to disturb sleep, but if done during the day, it should be good, right? It still doesn't work for acne though. Or is the light emitted just not bright enough?

If you don't use your bright lights at your office for some days, do you immediately break out (while on the diet and other factor remain the same)?

Also, consider the following: In many southern countries in Europe (eg. France, Spain (!), Italy, Greece, etc.) and especially the whole middle east, and maybe even Asia, it's very common to eat dinner late (after sunset!). It's usually large meals, consisting of a lot of carbohydrates. Yet, those are exactly the countries the least plagued by acne. According to your theory, melatonin interfers with carb digestion, so eating late at night should not be good for carb digestion and thus result in acne break outs (Hope I have this correct). But these observations mentioned seem to point exactly the opposite!

EDIT: I have been researching for a good lamp and I think I found the perfect one with the Philips HF3319/01 Energy Light or Philips HF3330/01 goLITE BLU. In the product description, they also mention daylight and sleep cycles etc. Very interesting. I might try this out after all.

Acne is caused by genetics.

Some people can do things to make their skin better or worse but in the end its genetics that determine how clear you are or how much effort you have to put in to be clear.

This is what we need to do to cure acne:

Take 10,000 people with absolutely terrible acne and scan their DNA. Then take 10,000 people with perfect skin and scan their DNA. Then look at the genes that are different in the 2 groups and from that we should be able to figure out what causes acne.

I know it is easier said than done but that would be the way to do it to REALLY find a cure because at the end of the day some people just don't get acne no matter what they do and some do.

But that will never happen because then all the companies that produce the various useless anti-acne products will go out of business.

This thread is very interesting but how do you explain the fact that a LOT of people stay indoors all day, get late to bed and STILL don't get acne AND eat almost only carbs ?

All diseases have different rates of expression across any population. If you force kids to live without sunlight and other sources of vitamin D, they won't all get rickets at the same time, and some won't meet the criteria for being diagnosed with rickets at all. How do you explain that fact? However you care to explain it, an explanation of "Ah, lack of Vitamin D doesn't cause rickets then." is clearly wrong.

The best studies to date show that nearly half the adults walking around in civilized society on any given day have at least one acne lesion. That makes it highly likely that the people you think "don't get acne" just get a different amount than the people you think do get acne.

Isn't this theory also just a 'symptomatic' one rather than THE underlying cause?

I personally think the primary cause has been identified: overproduction of superoxide anions by the immune system when P. acnes hits a keratinocyte. If so, then just from a biochemical basis, there are clearly lots of things that can make that worse or better. IMHO, failure to have a normal melatonin cycle (with the vast biochemical cascade that follows, much of which has plausible implications for acne) is the key thing that distinguishes modern man (with a huge rate of adult acne) from Trobriand Islanders (with zero adult acne).

Or, in other words: why do certain people react to this (like you did) and others not?

Can't tell without controlled experiments. Often, people will claim they get lots of sunlight and when you ask them questions it's simply not true. They wear hats and sunglasses. They think 4 hours of sunlight is "a lot". They think they sleep in the dark when there's actually a streetlight outside their window. etc.

And what about the fact that the background lighting of pc monitors is BLUE light too?

Nowhere near the intensity of outdoor light, even on a cloudy day. Take your brightest screen outdoors and see how washed out it is.

If you don't use your bright lights at your office for some days, do you immediately break out (while on the diet and other factor remain the same)?

Takes about 48 hours either direction (stopping or starting new acne).

common to eat dinner late (after sunset!).

See the parallel Japanese study that found that eating in dim light after pineal melatonin has started to rise also results in less carb malabsorption.

Yet, those are exactly the countries the least plagued by acne.

I don't know of any good studies that rate adult acne rates by country. For example, I've seen people on these boards claim "and that's why Asians don't have acne". There are definitely Chinese and Japanese studies that beg to differ with that claim.

According to your theory, melatonin interfers with carb digestion

Not nearly that simplistic. Failing to live in bright light at eating carbs increases carb malabsorption. Carb malabsorption is associated with lower levels of zinc and tryptophan. Tryptophan is needed to make melatonin (which stimulates cells to create SOD) and zinc is needed to make ZSOD -- which is probably the most effective molecule for mopping up those superoxide anions that create the key trigger for acne.

EDIT: I have been researching for a good lamp

The difficulty (for me, YMMV either way) is sufficient intensity for sufficient hours. I have about 10 bulbs going, and one is studio lighting. And I sit in my office for at least 10 hours in the light if I want to be confident of not getting acne.

Acne is caused by genetics.

This is rarely said by anyone who understand how genes work.

Since I can personally turn my acne on and off at will, I'll have to stay in the camp that believes genetics are of modest importance for this particular disease.

Take 10,000 people with absolutely terrible acne and scan their DNA. Then take 10,000 people with perfect skin and scan their DNA. Then look at the genes that are different in the 2 groups and from that we should be able to figure out what causes acne.

You have to understand that

• virtually no human trait has ever been proven to have a 100% genetic cause (e.g., hair color is influenced by environmental factors)
• a gene is simply a recipe for a protein; who cares what genes you have if you don't know when/where they actually get used?
• rarely does one gene correspond to one disease with any great accuracy
• the number of epigenetic factors that control genes is vast -- want to alter your genes? just reach over and turn up the thermostat.

Consider the discovery of the BRCA gene, which some of the nuttier doctors initially thought nearly completely predicted breast cancer and might herald a cure. Estimates of the association of BRCA with breast cancer have steadily dropped over the years as more people (outside the obviously non-random population it was initially located in) have been tested for it. We may never know how low the true association is since the genetic test is patented and the patent holder has no interest in learning that it is a less accurate predictor than the general public thinks.

Genes are not blueprints that determine your destiny.

Or, on the other hand, I totally agree with you 😀 Acne is caused by genetics. Failing to have a normal melatonin cycle (melatonin being capable of crossing into the cell nucleus and unmasking the genome) will cause the superoxide dismutase gene to be under expressed, leading to a failure to dampen the overactive immune system that leads to acne.

Is brown rice OK for carbs?

Thanks for the answers databased. The only thing I can do now is test your theory on me. I'm waiting for my lamp now...

Will report results