Interesting about the caffeine slowing down the breakdown of melatonin. If you have the paper link handy, could you post it?

This article is where I got started on that line of thought. Also of interest, Better Know an Enzyme: CYP1A2! 😀

My amateur summary: (for kibitzers, remember enzyme == protein == gene, more or less). For various reasons, CYP1A2 is an interesting enzyme, so real scientists with beards want an easy way to check to see if someone has a "non-standard" version of the gene that produces this enzyme. Because CYP1A2 appears to be the main enzyme that breaks down melatonin, the hope was to use a dose of melatonin to perform this test (don't pee out a bunch of melatonin metabolites, then you got a weird version of CYP1A2). But, this study purports to show that use of caffeine will interfere with that test, because caffeine interferes with CYP1A2's ability to break down melatonin.

The Fundamental Attribution Error will make some read this, notice the genetic variations that result in significantly more melatonin, and say "Aha -- I knew acne was genetic!" Of course, everything is genetic in some sense, but the more important point here is the possibility that your behavior (use of caffeine) can manipulate the effects of the relevant gene.

Regarding selenium, according to www.nutritiondata.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3091/2, one brazil nut has 95.9 mcg. Any reason NOT to eat one or two a day, instead of popping a pill?

Just the usual problem with trying to get micronutrients from plants -- you never know exactly what you're getting. Note the order of magnitude of variation in selenium content from one batch of Brazil nuts to another (can't get real excited about eating barium and radium, either). You definitely can overdose with selenium by eating too many daily Brazil nuts, just like with a pill. Of course, because my selenium pill is OTC, there's not a lot of independent confirmation that it's got what it's supposed to either. Sigh.

I have to say that I've been having great success with this regimen.

Thanks for those details -- it's good to hear I'm not the only one who can switch to feeling good first thing in the morning!

(I wear contacts which block UV rays; if I didn't wear them or glasses, I'd be wary of the no-sunglasses-thing)

Hmmm, doesn't pupil contraction in bright light automatically minimize UV damage? I thought the really damaging combination was to wear sunglasses that have no UV protection, since that opens the retina to unnaturally large amounts of UV. Have to look that up...

Lastly, I want to mention one thing about acne, eyes, and sunlight.

That is really interesting. Did anybody try to determine if you could be classified as having Sjogren's syndrome? I suspect the same immune disfunction of botched melatonin that leads to acne could also be implicated in other auto-immune disorders. OTOH, if you got better via just more thorough eyelid cleaning, it's unlikely Sjogren's could be implicated.

How is niacin good for acne?

How is niacin good for acne?

Multiple researchers are interested in that question! Like most supplements, niacin (let's be precise: niacinamide (aka nicotinamide), not nicotinic acid!) is no miracle cure, but it has at least been studied and shown to produce statistically significant improvements.

Most recently, these guys demonstrate (test tube only!) that supplying nicotinamide when P. Acnes contacts a keratinocyte causes the cell to produce less IL-8 than without the nicotinamide. This is in line with the general view of acne as an auto-immune disease, caused by an over-reactive immune system (note the irony of the many threads on this website about trying to boost the immune system!). IL-8 is a pro-inflammatory molecule (one of many) that is part of the immune response to contact with the foreign bacteria.

This is also in line with folks I think have nailed down the true trigger point: superoxide anions. Note the subtle difference between these two views. Your immune system is supposed to react to foreign bacteria on the skin and kill it. The former folks propose that nicotinamide works by decreasing that reaction. Maybe so. But the immune system almost always comes with duality: one set of chemicals that says KILL KILL KILL!, and another set that says CALM THE HELL DOWN! In this particular case, once the immune system (via poorly understood steps related to IL-8 and other molecules) generates a bunch of superoxide anions to help kill the invader, the anti-oxidant troops should be in there cleaning up the excess superoxide anions before they kill the skin cell itself. In this model, either dampening the KILL KILL KILL response or enhancing the CALM THE HELL DOWN response should help with acne -- but which side of the equation is really out of balance compared to people who don't have acne? I would currently claim it's the CALM THE HELL DOWN side of the equation that is too weak in acne sufferers, the side that needs more anti-oxidants (most particularly, zinc superoxide dismutase).

This review, proposes quite a number of possible pathways for nicotinamide to help acne, including decreased sebum production (which, anecdotally, some users report here).

My current thinking is this: decreasing IL-8 production is trying to fix the wrong side of the equation, which is why nicotinamide, despite being taken in massive doses, is usually at best an improvement, not a cure. Also, I think the folks in the first article cited make a good case that most of the reactive oxygen species are coming from a mechanism (NAD(P)H oxidase) other than IL-8, which would argue that dampening IL-8 alone can't produce a cure.

But more: since I believe the root systemic cause is living in dim light that impairs digestion of the tryptophan and zinc needed to manufacture zinc superoxide dismutase, I can (try to!) tie nicotinamide directly to this model of acne. The liver uses up large amounts of tryptophan (60-to-1 ratio by weight) to make nicotinamide, tryptophan that will then be unavailable for creating the melatonin that stimulates cells to create superoxide dismutase. My suspicion is that megadose nicotinamide decreases the amount of tryptophan burned by the liver for making nicotinamide. The actual amount of tryptophan burned to create 1g of niacin can vary by a factor of 2 between individuals -- another possible factor in the variability of acne severity.

I'm on shaky ground here, since this idea was explicitly disproved by direct experiment: giving nicotinamide did not appear to affect the amount of tryptophan the liver burned to make nicotinamide. But note that in that experiment, they used at most 68mg/day of nicotinamide, whereas acne studies (like Nicomide) use more than 10 times that amount. I'm proposing there is some feedback mechanism that, at huge enough doses of nicotinamide (such as the 750mg/day use in the Nicomide study), tells the liver to stop trying to make more. But I could be wrong. It maybe the liver blindly trudges on always converting the same amount of tryptophan to nicotinamide, no matter much already exists.

Niacin is a very low-level chemical put to a great many uses in the body, so it's not surprising that there are a lot of possibilities for connecting it to any particular disease.

Has anyone ever considered trying acidophilus supplements? I've done some reading up on acidophilus, and could very much be related to helping acne! Actually, acidophilus sounds like it helps more with candida, which symptoms usually relate to those of acne sufferers. I thought this might be another avenue to explore. I've been a long-time user of antibiotics for acne, and have read the whole bit how antibiotics kill the bad guys, as well as the good guys. Therefore, creating a yeast overgrowth leading to all sorts of problems in the human body. I wonder if a yeast overgrowth is the root of the problem to begin with, as far as acne is concerned. So when derms put you on antibiotics (Accutane included), that it eventually leads to bigger problems, by breaking down good bacteria in your system, just a thought. Besides having cystic acne for nearly 30 years, I've dealt with pseudofolliculitis barbae, dandruff, muscle and joint pain, sensitivity to chemicals, excessive sweating, and feeling fatigued...all symptons of candida. Could all of this be related? I'm thinking YES!

Tried acidophilus for a month, no effect on my acne. If yeast were the problem, I can't see why bright light exposure would transform my digestion in a single day and affect acne symptoms nearly as quickly. I read the original candida book when it came out many years ago and after some months of experiment decided it was like cold fusion -- honest people getting fooled by chasing statistically insignificant effects and accidental correlations. If you tweak your diet towards ever-increasing extremes, you will find patterns related to any variable you care to observe, IMHO. YMMV.

Do you think it makes any sense to eat foods with higher levels of tryptophan?

Tryptophan has me stumped. I just can't find any food or pill to ingest that gives me the quality of sleep I get after spending all day outdoors in the sun a couple of days in a row. To get good sleep (IMO), you've got to get the tryptophan digested, past the liver (which really wants to burn it up to create niacin) then across the blood-brain-barrier (which is a tight fit), and to the pineal gland. Of course, the pineal gland also needs a couple of important enzymes to do the tryptophan->serotonin->melatonin conversion. There's a lot of places where things can go wrong, but the big data point staring me in the face is that I can eat a crappy diet, spend my days in bright sunlight, and get (what sure feels like) that incredible melatonin surge at night. How can light in the eyes swamp all these other factors?

I keep coming back to the idea that maybe the problem is that the pineal gland melatonin production just isn't getting effectively shut down during the day when we live in dim light, and it's pissing away all the tryptophan in the brain, leaving insufficient amounts to make the big nighttime surge. On my todo list is to look for tricks to elevate estrogen in the brain, since estrogen helps interfere with the pineal glands manufacture of melatonin, and I strongly suspect this is why acne varies with menstruation and tends to appear at menopause (estrogen normally dampens pineal melatonin production, and dipping estrogen makes it harder for light in the eyes to suppress melatonin during the day, or such is my theory).

Oops, the pineal gland isn't behind the blood-brain barrier. I just always assumed (hey, it's part of the brain). Well, that explains why it's not so hard to flatten the melatonin curve by being on a folate-deprived diet. In that case, I should try some bedtime methionine. Hmmm, multiple interesting experiments are possible if the pineal is not behind the BBB. The puzzle is still: what is the mechanism by which day-long bright light exposure amplifies the nocturnal surge?

I don't know, but if we knew the mechanism, I wonder whether the result/signal could be mimicked without actually exposing the eye to light.

To clarify: do you think melatonin's action is primarily to prevent/reduce inflammation? In my understanding, which is quite basic, acne is caused by factors leading to an environment conducive to inflammation (skin cells don't slough off right, excess sebum, perhaps the composition of sebum), and then the inflammation itself. Does melatonin affect both, or just the inflammation (via production of SOD)?

To clarify: do you think melatonin's action is primarily to prevent/reduce inflammation?

I suspect it is primarily cleaning up superoxide anions generated by skin cells that are trying to kill P. acnes bacteria (but end up getting killed themselves by the excess of superoxide anions). Melatonin takes out the anions both directly and (probably more importantly) indirectly by stimulating cells to make more zinc superoxide dismutase.

Currently, I suspect melatonin's ability to slow cell division and prevent the creation of androgens is of secondary importance to acne; may help but not enough to cure.

Of the many details that could contribute to acne, nobody knows for sure what things matter. Currently, I'm betting on the folks that think it's the generation of superoxide anions that is the key trigger point for acne.

I've noticed significant improvement. But you don't necessarily have to wait until spring. Just don't wear sunglasses if you don't really need to, try to eat lunch near a window, keep your home well-lit until an hour or so before bed. Simple stuff. The only unusual/ritual-like thing you have to do is avoid eating fruit in the evening. Makes me laugh, it sounds so absurd, but it's a huge change from my former diet (HUGE quantities of fruit after dinner), and, like I've said, I've seen great improvement in my acne.

Databased,

Any luck with those supplements?

Just my experiences with different supplements:

I've found that 150 mg of Zinc a day helps to an extent, HOWEVER, everytime I overdose like this, I experience pains about three days in in my heart region, or my lower abdomen. Also, I tried GliSODin (about 3 pills a day, I think 150 mg?) for a couple of days, and noticed the next day, I would get odd pains in my knee while walking, as though I had arthritis or something in it. Needless to say, I stopped taking GliSODin after that. Supplements seem to be more trouble than they're worth buying. It's better to try and get the minerals and vitamins naturally, through food or sunlight (melatonin surge).

I don't see why a hat would be a problem, just the sunglasses. You said you were on a deck with no direct sunlight on your deck and it worked fine. It's not like hats take away brightness, they just prevent direct sunlight. When you look at things (plants, etc) it still reflects a lot of light into your eye.

Also, I dunno if the Amish lifestyle (hard labor, etc) takes away any potential harm from insulin spikes, but they eat a LOT of dairy. So that could explain why. I don't think caffeine would have such a great effect for them since they HAVE to get good sleep and always sleep at the same time (dusk).

This is an awesome theory though, props. One question: have you tried wearing sunglasses while eating outside? I know it seems counter-intuitive, but it would be another form of control.

Databased,

Any luck with those supplements?

I've seen only very modest improvements with the big bag of pills meant to elevate SOD levels, so modest they might be noise, and certainly not worth the expense.

I don't see why a hat would be a problem, just the sunglasses. You said you were on a deck with no direct sunlight on your deck and it worked fine. It's not like hats take away brightness, they just prevent direct sunlight.

Hats definitely reduce the number of photons that make it to the retina. Most of the blue intense light outdoors is coming from above, and hats can easily block out half of that energy source.

I don't think caffeine would have such a great effect for them since they HAVE to get good sleep and always sleep at the same time (dusk).

AFAIK, all branches and derivatives of Amish (New/Old/Mennonite/etc) make extensive use of artificial lights, and do not sleep according to the dictates of sunlight at all.

One question: have you tried wearing sunglasses while eating outside?

For me, it's not really a subtle effect. I can't get significantly clear with an hour or two of outdoor light or just at mealtime, etc.

Hi databased, if I were to take a L-tryptophan supplement, what kind of dosage will you recommend?

I'm thinking that any tryptophan will be unnecessary as what you said, the liver converts it at a 60-1 ratio to niacin. From my readings so far, I'm inclined to believe that this will occur unless you are on a ridiculous dosage of niacin, and even so, the liver will still does it work. 500mg tryptophan -> 80mg niacin, not even 1g. Hence I find it rather pointless.

As from our previous messages regarding 5-HTP, I think more than anything that this should be looked at. I always have a really good sleep after taking 5-HTP, 50mg. As to whether it works for the skin, besides the 'unnatural' way of adding it into your system, I think it might work, slightly. tryptophan -> 5-htp -> seratonin -> melanin. Most ecstasy (the drug) abusers take 5-HTP to boost their depleted seratonin levels as well.

Also, looking at the amount of fructose that Apples contain, what other consistent fruit options do I have? As far as I can tell, its peaches, oranges or melons

lastly, what do you think of the theory that hormones/androgens are to be blamed? I'm inclined to start a suma root/vitex/saw palmetto and burdock to cleanse the blood and balance my androgen/hormones. Scientifically rational or pure rubbish?

Hi databased, if I were to take a L-tryptophan supplement, what kind of dosage will you recommend?

I tried 500mg. But I would not take L-tryptophan for a year at a time after studying the whole controversy with eosinophilia myalgia syndrome. I don't believe there's good proof it can or cannot cause the disease, but it's too nasty of a disease to risk it.

I'm thinking that any tryptophan will be unnecessary as what you said, the liver converts it at a 60-1 ratio to niacin. From my readings so far, I'm inclined to believe that this will occur unless you are on a ridiculous dosage of niacin, and even so, the liver will still does it work. 500mg tryptophan -> 80mg niacin, not even 1g. Hence I find it rather pointless.

IIRC, the liver does not make more niacin in the face of increased tryptophan; it gets the amount it wants one way or another, but is not a constant blockade to tryptophan. Certainly tryptophan has appeared to provide improved sleep when studied.

As from our previous messages regarding 5-HTP, I think more than anything that this should be looked at. I always have a really good sleep after taking 5-HTP, 50mg.

I speculate there are two paths to better sleep for some people, one that helps acne, one that is irrelevant. It's possible that having higher serotonin levels in the brain gives you better sleep by calming you down so you're not thrashing about with excessive REM during the night. But that's by getting 5-HTP across the blood-brain barrier into the brain, whereas the pineal gland is outside the blood-brain barrier and its workings are triggered by rhythmic processes (so presenting it with tryptophan at the wrong time may be counter productive to melatonin production, and therefore acne).

Also, looking at the amount of fructose that Apples contain, what other consistent fruit options do I have? As far as I can tell, its peaches, oranges or melons

The real answer is that living in bright light lets you eat reasonable amounts of fructose. Oranges are technically not a high fructose ratio fruit, but it's total excess fructose molecules over glucose that (theoretically) matter, so a tall glass of orange juice is still a bad bet, while eating a single orange may be fine. Pineapple is usually tested to be a nearly 1:1 ratio of fructose/glucose AFAICT.

lastly, what do you think of the theory that hormones/androgens are to be blamed? I'm inclined to start a suma root/vitex/saw palmetto and burdock to cleanse the blood and balance my androgen/hormones. Scientifically rational or pure rubbish?

Melatonin is a hormone. Vitamin D is a hormone. Blaming "hormones" is almost always going to have some meaningless "truth" to it, just like blaming "genetics". They both play at least some part in every aspect of health and body functioning. But just because not all alcoholics die of liver disease, we don't blame cirrhosis on bad genes or hormonal disfunction -- we just say, don't drink mass quantities of alcohol every day!

If it's true that the crux of acne is the trigger of excess superoxide anions when P. acnes contacts the right keratinocytes, then it's plausible that less androgen-stimulated oil production decreases the number of places that Bad Thing can occur -- without actually addressing the root problem (it's not like the 100% acne-free Trobriand Islanders have zero oil production on their faces). It's also possible that androgens act directly by amplifying the immune response that is creating the excessive superoxide anions.

Most herbal treatments related to "androgens" are aimed at prostate cancer. The androgen most people implicate in acne is manufactured directly in the skin, but is a slightly different form than that made by the gonads. So, most things aimed at reducing androgens don't actually have much effect on the form that is created in the skin. And even the few that do have not showed great promise for decreasing acne lesions, again suggesting androgens are not the lynchpin of the disease (though like innumerable other factors, they may be able to tweak the severity).

So I would expect the route of using herbal remedies to treat acne would have little to no efficacy. Personally, I've taken saw palmetto for years with no discernible effect on skin.

Hi databased, I've read through these pages of your light experiment and I'm planning on trying it out. Would you recommend 6500k temperature cfl bulbs? They seem to have more blue in them but I'm not sure if it's in the right spectrum.

I speculate there are two paths to better sleep for some people, one that helps acne, one that is irrelevant. It's possible that having higher serotonin levels in the brain gives you better sleep by calming you down so you're not thrashing about with excessive REM during the night. But that's by getting 5-HTP across the blood-brain barrier into the brain, whereas the pineal gland is outside the blood-brain barrier and its workings are triggered by rhythmic processes (so presenting it with tryptophan at the wrong time may be counter productive to melatonin production, and therefore acne).

So you are saying that 5-HTP is inherently not suitable to be used? What time do you recommend takeing Tryptophan and with or without meals? Been taking insitol hexanicotinate (non-flush niacin) for the past few days with meals to see if it works. 500mg-1000mg a day

Pineapple is usually tested to be a nearly 1:1 ratio of fructose/glucose AFAICT.

Seeing that I don't like pineapples, I'll try to research on what else I can take.

Thanks for your comments so far. I myself have taken 1100mg of saw palmetto supplements from NOW Food for the past 5 months to no effect (besides placebo/minor effect if any) but I heard burdock root + vitex can cleanse the blood. no idea how rational is this.

Has anyone noticed that they can wake more refreshed if they sleep fewer hours? If I sleep for 9 hours, I feel great. If I sleep for 7.5 hours, or 8 hours, or 8.5 hours, I wake up feeling like crap. However, if I sleep for 7 hours, I wake up feeling OK. In other words, I'd rather sleep for 7 hours than 8.5 hours. Doesn't make any sense to me, and I'm wondering if there's any connection with the ideas in this thread.

On a separate note, has anyone here tried using bright artificial light to suppress daytime melatonin at work? I want to put some sort of small lamp with a high-lumen daylight spectrum on my desk. Don't want to appear crazed, though.

Do update us if you find out anything new

Do update us if you find out anything new

My suspicion has been that oral contraceptives improve acne by keeping estrogen levels from dipping as low, estrogen being implicated in the ability of light to suppress daytime melatonin. However, I ran across a study that seems to show that caffeine does not suppress nocturnal melatonin in women taking oral contraceptives as it does in controls. Maybe that's the correct explanation, or maybe both mechanisms work together. Maybe the women who get the most acne-preventative benefit from the pill are the ones using the most evening caffeine...

Likewise, maybe some of the marginal health benefits of estrogen are generated by keeping caffeine from suppressing the nocturnal melatonin surge.

An update on my experience ongoing with this:

So about a month ago, I started taking 100mg zinc a day in the form of 2 50mg pills: Once in the morning, and once in the evening. I haven't gotten a new breakout in about 2 weeks; something completely unheard of for me since I've had acne (largest timespan without a new whitehead was about 3 days). Needless to say, I'm very happy with the results, and honestly, I don't get that much sun. From my own experience, spending entire days out in the sun have either made my acne stay the same, or even worse from burns. My relatively indoor-based lifestyle still works with 100mg of zinc a day, and I couldn't be happier. I'm just waiting for the 3 spots on the left side of my face to clear up, and then all that's left is redmarks and some minor scarring. I'm very excited to have a clear face soon finally.

Also, an important note: milk does indeed break me out into cysts--almost guaranteed everytime. Now, I LOVE cereal. Because of this, I purchased almond milk a week ago, and it doesn't produce a cystic breakout in me, and I can enjoy cereal again. Life is good.

Some quick observations:

I've been on multiple Steak and Shake runs in the last week for milkshakes, and most notably my skin's been a lot more irritated at previous blemishes, and new whiteheads are starting to show up.

So, my basic skincare regimen:

100mg Zinc / day

No dairy

Hope this helps you guys out.

FYI, I had success with Databased's melatonin regimen - that is, until I started a new job and had to be inside without sunlight for most of the day...

Now, I take a 12 mg zinc lozenge (the kind sold for the common cold) each night during the week, and just get lots of sun and good sleep on the weekends. It's been working great. The lozenge is made by "Nature's Blend" and also contains 100%DV of Vit. C, and 25%DV of Vit. B6. I take one about 20 minutes before bed on an empty stomach.

So...my opinion would be to try to cut back on the zinc to something less than 100 mg per day, since a mere 12 mg (along with the B6 and C) works well for me. Of course, everyone's different. But it might be wise to keep adjusting down your daily zinc intake, until you reach the least amount that still shows good results.

Also, I should mention that I've taken steps in my diet to avoid zinc malabsorption - namely, eating foods rich in zinc (like meat) separate from foods that inhibit zinc absorption (e.g., unsprouted or unsoaked grains, which contain phytic acid). Not sure if that makes a big difference, though.

And...for full disclosure, I use a sunscreen with zinc oxide when I'm in the sun during the weekend. I don't know if that would "count" towards how much zinc my body is absorbing.

Databased:

Many people take vitamin B5 as a acne "cure". I have a read a theory about the connection between B5 and fat metabolism. There is a also a connection between B5, melatonin and Coenzyme A. Maybe that could be the connection you are looking for between zinc and acne?

Siri

It's a thought. Pantothenic acid (Vitamin B5) is simply the primary precursor for CoA, so if you want more CoA floating around, megadosing B5 should do the trick. CoA is a substrate for innumerable enzyme reactions, so it's easy to connect it at least indirectly to most any disease process, whether or not it has much functional relevance.

Still, it is true that acetyl-CoA is required at the initial, rate-limiting step of the two-step synthesis of melatonin from serotonin. So, it's plausible that megadosing B5 could at modestly amplify nocturnal melatonin production. This would suggest factors that could distinguish who would see any benefit from b5 from those who don't.

• Timing of B5 would likely matter; evening consumption would be a better bet than morning.
• It's still always easy to destroy the melatonin surge, so B5 would be more likely to help if you: go to bed at the same time every day, avoid caffeine especially in the 8 hours before bedtime, sleep >8 hours in total darkness, etc.
• You still need serotonin to turn into melatonin, so all the things that keep its precursor (tryptophan) from being digested are still an issue (like living in dim indoor light leading to increased carb malabsorption and decreased ability to digest tryptophan and zinc.

Like taking lots of zinc, megadosing B5 is a miracle cure for a lucky few, marginal help for many, and completely ineffective for others. IMHO, that is consistent with the fact that both strategies are just touching on the periphery of the real issue: the multiple biochemical pathways to acne that are exacerbated by not living in bright outdoor light and sleeping long and hard in total darkness.

i'm on 200 mg of zinc hpv chelated and it seems to be helping a lot but there are so many variables in my life right now that i'm not sure what is helping and what isn't

i recently did a 40 hr fast and that seemed to help too and i know that NATURAL sunlight helps my acne tremendously but tanning in a salon seems to make it worse, the only problem is i live in southern quebec and we don't get a lot of sun here for most of the year, basically our "season" is from may to sept and thats pretty much it for sunlight, my acne is always better in the summer time so i think there is probably a lot of truth to your theory.

i am looking for a place that i can move to with more sunlight because i don't want to go through one more nasty, cold and long quebec winter with acne, in the meantime though what do you think of the paleo diet? i assume there is something about grains/sugar/dairy that causes acne but how can some people get away with it but not others?

and how do you feel about about masturbation causing acne? i'm pretty sure it does for me but other than a hormonal surge i can't think of a reason why