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Hi Databased.
I find your theory of a zinc-less zinc regimen with lots of sunlight very interesting. My acne started just over a year ago, where I never really had a problem before. That year I seemed to be working inside my home more than I had ever done so before. I had also moved into a new house two years prior which unfortunately doesn't allow much natural light in. My previous home was always bright with natural light - I certainly felt the psychological effects of a darker home. It fits so well with your explanation of sunlight and physical health. Our bodies are extremely complex. All of the benefits of regular sunlight (and darkness) probably haven't even been discovered yet.
I started taking zinc a few months ago when I began accutane. I was uncertain of the amount to take. This is what brought me to your thread. Anyways, when I was reading through your entries about SOD (superoxide dismutase) and zinc, I decided to look up the info. in my Advanced Nutrient Metabolism textbook from my college years. I found that SOD is dependent on both zinc and copper. I think I remember you mentioning the role of copper as well. My textbook also mentions how zinc doses of 18.5mg to 300mg daily have resulted in copper deficiency, which is difficult to reverse naturally. My textbook then continues on saying, "Furthermore, copper deficiency induced by intakes of zinc (110mg to 165mg) for 10 months did not respond to cessation of zinc and 2 months of oral copper supplementation. Cupric chloride given intravenously for five days (total dose 10 mg) was needed to correct the deficiency and suggested that elimination of excess zinc by the body is a slow process and will continue to inhibit copper absorption until it is eliminated." I must admit that my textbook was published in 1995 (can't believe it's that old! 
) So, it may be outdated by new research.
I know many individuals are asking advice on how much zinc to take. I don't know if this information will be helpful or not to you. I see that you have already been suggesting that the lower dosage put forth by Optizinc may be the better way to go. In summary, I guess this information suggests avoiding a prolonged period of high zinc supplementation. It interferes with copper absorption and levels in the body, which in turn may affect the function of SOD in altering superoxide radicals. SOD is dependant on two atoms of both zinc and copper to change a superoxide radical. Copper also has other important functions in the body as well. (Like avoiding premature graying of the hair! 
)
I was taking 70 mg of zinc a day, and have now reduced it to 30 mg every other day. I think I will add a small copper supplement on the off days. Not sure if this is the right thing to do or not. 
Hmmmm.... I think mostly I will be taking the dogs for a lot more walks!
In regards to digestion of sugars, have you found taking sugar/starch digestive enzymes with your meals beneficial on the days where you don't get much sunlight?
Have a great week!
My textbook also mentions how zinc doses of 18.5mg to 300mg daily have resulted in copper deficiency, which is difficult to reverse naturally.
Orally, or via IV? Oral doses much larger than 18.5mg have been used in numerous studies with no ill effects. For example, one study used 100mg/day on elderly patients for one year. 300mg/day should be enough to put you in the hospital, though it may take a year or more to do it for some people apparently (based on case reports of zinc supplement poisoning).
The body regulates zinc tightly (it is a poison in the wrong form at the wrong place), and that starts in the intestine, which appears to absorb less as the dose increases AFAICT. I seriously doubt anybody taking 45mg of zinc/day is absorbing anywhere near 45mg of zinc each day.
I see that you have already been suggesting that the lower dosage put forth by Optizinc may be the better way to go.
Actually, I suggest living in bright sunlight and not having to take any zinc at all. 😀 But even that dose is 3 times the minimum your book claims has produced copper deficiency, which I find extremely hard to believe -- unless they are talking about IV delivery (totally possible, since many nutrient studies are based on what's being fed to comatose patients).
SOD is dependant on two atoms of both zinc and copper to change a superoxide radical.
However, I suspect most people are getting water from copper pipes and eating foods where copper was used as an anti-fungal and getting quite a bit of copper without trying. In my own experience, taking copper or not was irrelevant, which is what I expect since I believe the larger problem is having enough SOD for either ion to make use of.
In regards to digestion of sugars, have you found taking sugar/starch digestive enzymes with your meals beneficial on the days where you don't get much sunlight?
Beano has been no help. I don't know of any other OTC enzymes of that type, but would be interested in trying them if something relevant exists...
Of course, when I live in bright sunlight all day, there's virtually no gas even from eating a gigantic pot of beans -- it surprises me nobody has ever noticed this effect before.
Hey there. Thanks for your reply.
"Orally, or via IV? Oral doses much larger than 18.5mg have been used in numerous studies with no ill effects."
My textbook doesn't specifically say if zinc was administered orally or via IV. It just states, "Zinc intakes ranging from 18.5 mg to 300 mg daily..." The RDA is 8-11 mg. for adults and based on an average 20% absorption rate. Due to the variability of zinc absorption, it is possible that the intake of zinc was through IV. This would create highly controlled study. However, it could have been orally (and assumed at a 20% absorption rate). Wish I had access to the original study.
"The body regulates zinc tightly (it is a pioison in the wrong form at the wrong place), and that starts in the intestine, which appears to absorb less as the dose increases AFAICT. I seriously doubt anybody taking 45mg of zinc/day is absorbing anywhere near 45mg of zinc each day."
True, another reason why large amounts of zinc may not be necessary. Elevated zinc consumption stimulates the production of thionein polypeptides to bind with zinc preventing the absorption into the blood stream through the intestine. Interestingly, copper and other metals bind to the thionein polypeptides, hindering their absorption as well. (I find all of this fascinating, and now remember why this class (Advanced Nutrition) was one of my favorites 
) Zinc seems to play a structural role with SOD (maintaining it's integrity), while copper drives the reaction of SOD with superoxide radicals.
"Actually, I suggest living in bright sunlight and not having to take any zinc at all. 
"
And, it's free! I love it. I'm sure you already know many of the benefits of sunlight, but here's a website that lists some of the potential benefits of regular sunlight that your readers may like. http://amazinghealth.com/AH-articles-8laws-Sunlight.html
"However, I suspect most people are getting water from copper pipes and eating foods where copper was used as an anti-fungal and getting quite a bit of copper without trying. In my own experience, taking copper or not was irrelevant, which is what I expect since I believe the larger problem is having enough SOD for either ion to make use of."
Possibly, unless a person filters their water which removes the metals. I don't, so maybe my copper intake is already adequate. Although, copper deficiency (according to my text) was not reversed/affected by two months of orally consuming copper, but only through IV.
"I don't know of any other OTC enzymes of that type, but would be interested in trying them if something relevant exists..."
A number of digestive enzyme supplements are for sale OTC. There are some that are specific for sugar/starch and others for protein digestion. I have heard (don't know if it's true) that sometimes it's the protein that causes gas, not carbohydrates (which beano helps with). I have used the digestion enzymes by Natures' Sunshine which seemed adequate. My natural "practitioner" sells me BioSet, which she prefers. Hope that helps.
Yikes! I gotta go to work! It's been fun!
As you said, it could be beneficial to get some caffein in the mornings, however, couldnt it beneficial later also? As late as it doesnt interfer with your melatonin production at the night? And how late is that?
Let's say you have to stay inside one day, couldnt caffein work as a subistitute for the sunlight, as both works against melatonin?
Btw, two links regarding your theory:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P...?tool=pmcentrez
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P...tool=pmcentrezz
Although, copper deficiency (according to my text) was not reversed/affected by two months of orally consuming copper, but only through IV.
Which also seems odd. The common remedy for long-term zinc overdose that I see in the literature is to simply stop taking zinc, after which symptoms resolve on their own. Example.
Caffeine clearly interferes with sleep; exactly what it does to melatonin production is less clear to me. I avoid caffeine for >= 8hours before bedtime and it seems to cause no problem.
Let's say you have to stay inside one day, couldnt caffein work as a subistitute for the sunlight, as both works against melatonin?
Unlikely, and not in my personal experience. Caffeine can help melatonin stick around longer before being broken down, but where will the melatonin come from? To make the melatonin in the first place, you need (at least) tryptophan and Vitamin B. The only 2 options I know for getting those effectively digested is either living in bright light all day or avoiding specific carbs like fructose like the plague.
Btw, two links regarding your theory:
Or check out entire journals on chronobiology. The relatively unique thing about what I'm saying is that it's the daytime that is more crucial to normalizing the melatonin cycle than the night.
Okay I have a tips for this regimen. Do not use melatonin in pill form under any circumstances, because that really fucks things up, at least for me. I've also read that if you take melatonin from pill the body will regulate and dont produce so much for some days after also.
My second experience is that, if you one day want to stay up late, you should still try to wake up at the same time, you will be tired - yes - but its better then not to manage to sleep at the regular time the next day, because you have slept too much.
And a question, you said it could be beneficial for acne-sufferers to take a morning coffee, shouldnt it be beneficial to take a lunch coffee as well? As long as its around 8 hours before u sleep.
And what about vegetables? For example a raw broccoli have 0,10 glucose and 0,17 fructose. Could that lead to a break out?
What about dairy in form of for example butter? You think that can be bad?
And a question, you said it could be beneficial for acne-sufferers to take a morning coffee, shouldnt it be beneficial to take a lunch coffee as well? As long as its around 8 hours before u sleep.
try and see. I cut caffeine off after lunch and don't have a problem.
And what about vegetables? For example a raw broccoli have 0,10 glucose and 0,17 fructose. Could that lead to a break out?
Ignoring fructose versus glucose, let's suppose that 156g of broccoli has 2g of sugars and a 12oz can of Coke has 40g. I conclude that very few people in the world have a diet such that they are getting large amounts of fructose from broccoli.
What about dairy in form of for example butter? You think that can be bad?
Try and see. IME, my response to dairy is fairly consistent with the idea that it's just another sugar (lactose) problem. Butter has little lactose, and I don't feel butter causes me much problem. Same deal with hard, aged cheeses. If I ate processed cheeses (more lactose), it might be a problem.
As with other sugars, when I'm spending all day every day in bright summer light, I can eat way more dairy (e.g., ice cream) without producing acne.
Allright, thanks for answers.
I saw in another post that you said fruit could be better eaten if the glucose/fructose ratio was 1:1 or more glucose. Can you explain me more about this ?
It make perfectly sense to not eat fruits, especially as you say - not when you are not able to be in daylight - as for most people not living in tropical areas in the world, never had fruits available in the winter when it was less daylight. Therefore we are logically not adopted to eat fruits in some time of the year..
You are saying you can eat ice cream when you are out in the sun all day, and still not get acne? Even though you might not care, do you believe thats also a sign that your body does not react any bad in other ways as well? What I mean is, by not getting acne of eating that ice-cream, you think its actually not unhealthy as well?
I saw in another post that you said fruit could be better eaten if the glucose/fructose ratio was 1:1 or more glucose. Can you explain me more about this ?
It is a somewhat weird and still-being-researched finding that fructose gets digested better in the presence of glucose. Thus, doctors who believe they are treating carb malabsorption will steer patients away from foods that have more fructose molecules than glucose molecules, assuming that the bigger the fructose/glucose ratio is, the more fructose that will fail to get digested.
Of course, there's only so much of either fructose or glucose that can be stuffed through the intestinal walls to get digested, so I find it hard to believe that any possible amount of fructose (e.g., 64oz Big Gulp from 7-11) can magically get digested perfectly by just supplying enough glucose.
Therefore we are logically not adopted to eat fruits in some time of the year..
Nor were the fruits of primitive man specifically bred for high fructose/glucose ratios to make them sweeter. Also, we had to compete with other animals for fruit, so if you waited until it was nice and sweet, then probably the birds/monkeys/whatever got there and ate it before you. The fructose/glucose ratio of a banana, for example, varies quite a lot depending on how ripe it gets.
You are saying you can eat ice cream when you are out in the sun all day, and still not get acne? Even though you might not care, do you believe thats also a sign that your body does not react any bad in other ways as well? What I mean is, by not getting acne of eating that ice-cream, you think its actually not unhealthy as well?
Yes, I can stay acne-free and eat significant ice cream when I'm spending every day in the summer sun. Whether ice cream is "healthy" is a whole different can of worms. It's got a lot of sugar and fat. If I at mostly ice cream all day, then I could get pretty fat. Being obese is a fair predictor of a lot of bad health outcomes. OTOH, if I were an ultra-marathoner, I could probably eat all the ice cream I could stand while stuffing my face with a pineapple pizza every few hours (as some do) and not necessarily suffer much in the way of health consequences.
The relationship of food to long-term health is really complicated; the main thing I'm sure about is that many popular assumptions currently held about that relationship will eventually turn out to be wrong.
I think the twinkie diet researcher hit the nail on the head when he said "there's not enough information".
I dunno why I can't post links but check "The Twinkie Diet: A Paleo Dieter Perspective" from Primal Wisdom blog for quite an interesting response to that Twinkie thingie 
I've been supplementing betaine HCl (1500-2000mg, 30mins after a meal) for some weeks. My acne symptoms have also been very low during that time even though I spend very little time outside. I also eat starch/SAFA -based diet with very little fructose/lactose. I think that betaine HCl may be helpful for some people suffering from acne. Maybe the seemingly common lack of adequate stomach acid (see "Get rid of heartburn and GERD forever in three simple steps" from The Healthy Sceptic) may be contributing to acne too. As somebody (Elaine Gottschall?) said, everything that doesn't get digested, is harmful.
I have also found an thread about this HCl thing here. The topic is "So, when I try to lower my HCl dosage, I break out!".
I've been supplementing betaine HCl (1500-2000mg, 30mins after a meal) for some weeks. My acne symptoms have also been very low during that time even though I spend very little time outside. I also eat starch/SAFA -based diet with very little fructose/lactose. I think that betaine HCl may be helpful for some people suffering from acne.
My guess is it's a symptom, not the cause. IOW, failing to get tryptophan/zinc/Vitamin B digested in the intestines leads to lowered levels of nutrients at the cellular level, leading to hypochlorhydria, which in turn impairs the ability to digest (at least) tryptophan, forming a complete vicious cycle.
The reason I'm dubious that hypochlorhydria is a root cause is simply because of the dramatic effects of retinal light exposure on digestion -- and I don't know of a mechanism for that to affect Hcl secretion in the stomach (though it's not impossible such a mechanism exists).
If betaine HCl helps your acne, it would be interesting to see whether substituting 1-2000mg of niacinamide per day would produce the same results.
maybe we still can drink?
Hard to tell from that small (N=11) study. They specifically excluded "morning" and "night" people, which probably excludes a large percentage of people with acne (who I reckon have more abnormal sleep than the general population). The test was ethanol in fruit juice, whereas in real life, many people drink beer that has variable amounts of melatonin. Finally, what they were looking for was whether alcohol could cause a daytime increase in pineal melatonin output. The more relevant result to acne is probably the finding that evening alcohol can suppress melatonin output.
So, what you may drink may contain melatonin and it may suppress melatonin. Some people claim drinking helps their acne, some claim it hurts. I believe both camps. 😀
i'm sorry to just come out and ask this as you probably have answered this plenty of times in this thread already, but
how can i get my daily dosage of zinc that would cause my hormonal acne, i'm a 27 year old male, to subside??
what should i eat or what pill can i take to increase my zinc intake?
If betaine HCl helps your acne, it would be interesting to see whether substituting 1-2000mg of niacinamide per day would produce the same results.Why or how should this help? :eh:
There are a handful of reports of clinicians using niacin to treat hypochlorhydria. I think you can trace back to all of them from this article. Speculation on a mechanism is also provided.
Fascinating!
I'm the only one in my family with severe acne (20 years and counting), and funnily enough, I've never been able to sleep well.
On the rare occasion when I do sleep (i.e., spending time outdoors all day), my skin looks clearer and I never understood why. Perhaps it's a melatonin-issue, as you wrote... 
DATABASED - can you recommend how i can get more ZInc? what kind of pills and where i can get them?little help would be fantastic as i don't get much sun, esp. in the winter and that leads me to feeling depressed a bit.
dont be helpless.. Got to the drugstore and ask for Zinc. Buy it. Take up to 100mg a day
if you get very little sun u can take tanning bed once a week as well
DATABASED - can you recommend how i can get more ZInc? what kind of pills and where i can get them?
You can buy optizinc, a formulation that's been studied clinically with some success (after 8 weeks of taking 15mg 3 times per day with meals) from iherb.com or other sources. I'm not sure it makes much sense to bother with zinc without also taking a Vitamin B complex, the other substance that has generally shown some improvement for acne.
You can also get more zinc digested by trying to put the brightest lights you can wherever it is you spend most of your day and by shifting your diet away from carbs like fructose. More turkey, less whipped potatoes and pie. 😀
DATABASED - can you recommend how i can get more ZInc? what kind of pills and where i can get them?little help would be fantastic as i don't get much sun, esp. in the winter and that leads me to feeling depressed a bit.
dont be helpless.. Got to the drugstore and ask for Zinc. Buy it. Take up to 100mg a day
if you get very little sun u can take tanning bed once a week as well
don't be HELPLESS. i know i can't help it tho.
thankx for the Info. I was going to ask if tanning would help and i'll def. try it now that it's been recommended a couple of times. A tanning bed with regular sunscreen or low SPF or what??
good look Mayn Man.
Optizinc and Vitamin B complex - got it. Good Look DATABASED.
i just read something on fatfreekitchen.com on acne treatment that said Vitamin B Complex is the way to go .
DATABASED - One quick question: How do your recommendations concerning zinc apply to teenage acne?
Just say no! 😀 If you don't normalize your sleep, the zinc probably won't help anyway. Probably nobody would look too much askance at a teenager taking <=15mg of zinc per day.
Teenaged acne is usually blamed on "hormones", but the Trobriand Islanders had 0 acne among their teenagers. I don't think it's a coincidence that the age of onset of acne corresponds well with the age that teenagers start:
- Getting to sleep less regularly and for fewer hours.
- Getting to make more of their own food choices (yum, give me the fructose-laden apples/Coke/whatever every time!)
- Getting fewer hours of outdoor light exposure (more hats, sunglasses, indoor vids, etc.)