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Alternativista, I read an article from the paleo update emails that talks about raw milk and gluten grains. There is a lectin in raw milk that is not too dangerous and binds the same receptors as many other lectins in gluten-containing grains, it is not present in pasteurized milk. Maybe you may want to look into it. It is posed as one of the theories why some communities did so good on "bread and butter" (I guess it would be bread and dairy). Take for example the swiss village Price visited, diet based on whole rye bread, butter, cheese, some milk and meat.
Okay, this is what I've collected so far from various wiki links and other links.
NANA, sialic acid, is found mostly from animal tissue, but also in certain plants and bacteria.
It is mostly concentrated in glycoproteins and gangliosides. When it's present in our gut it's in the form of a glycoprotein called mucin. Also when it is found in whey it is in the form of a glycoprotein. Gangliosides are subtypes of glycolipids that are concentrated in the brain of mammals (quote wiki "[...]a crucial component of neuronal membranes found in the brain."). Also from wiki, "Ganglioside is a compound composed of a glycosphingolipid (ceramide and oligosaccharide) with one or more sialic acids (AKA n-acetylneuraminic acid, NANA) linked on the sugar chain." "It is a component of the cell plasma membrane [maybe why bacteria and yeast contain it] that modulates cell signal transduction events. It appears that they concentrate in lipid rafts."
Lipid rafts wiki, "One key difference between lipid rafts and the plasma membranes from which they are derived is lipid composition. Research has shown that lipid rafts generally contain twice the amount of cholesterol found in the surrounding bilayer." "Cholesterol is the dynamic "glue" that holds the raft together." [maybe why eggs contain it]
Cholesterol containing foods may contain more NANA.
What I thought was interesting is that gangliosides are concentrated in the brain, and I know that some autistic kids get better when giving up gluten. They also give up dairy however so I dunno, but the amount of whey in milk and first stage cheese is small. Even more so when it's skim.
Thing is I thought about Alzheimer's and wondered if their could be a possible explanation. So I typed in "cholesterol dementia" into google. First study that came up however said high cholesterol may be a risk for dementia. I thought, well damn, but I read it anyways. Thing is high blood cholesterol levels were associated with dementia. So I thought oh and backed out to read the 3rd link down on google which said that a new study claimed high cholesterol levels may help protect dementia.
My dad is "not always there" so to speak, so I asked him if he avoided cholesterol in food. He said yes, and he said he also took a statin. His mind seems to be getting worse. I wonder if WGA has something to do with it. I wonder if the body raises cholesterol levels just so it can protect against the damage it causes, or if it even causes damage in the brain.
This link: [Removed]
QuoteNeuraminic Acid has been found to be particularly important for development and learning. And not surprising it is found in breast milk. Its medical name is N-acetylneuraminic acid .In studies it has been found that this essential saccharide may improve both memory and performance. It has also been found that it may be an immune modulator which may in turn repel such things as bacteria, viruses and other pathogens.
Sorry just saw this video on some chick who added yogurt to her oats. I just assumed. She said it worked. It's the natural redhead chick who's on youtube and has that website, she's aussie.
If only I could live off milk, cheese, bread and butter. Yogurt, meat..sauerkraut reminds me of sausage but google images say it's cabbage.
Sorry just saw this video on some chick who added yogurt to her oats. I just assumed. She said it worked. It's the natural redhead chick who's on youtube and has that website, she's aussie.If only I could live off milk, cheese, bread and butter. Yogurt, meat..sauerkraut reminds me of sausage but google images say it's cabbage.
You've never had Sauerkraut? Of course it's cabbage. You must be looking at images of sausage or hot dogs cooked or served with sauerkraut.
And adding yogurt doesn't = fermentation. Soaking overnight or longer in live yogurt = fermentation because the yogurt is the bacteria starter. For example, Real Muesli is not that cereal that comes in a box and includes something like corn or bran flakes. It should be mostly oats, and from my understanding, real Swiss muesli, where it originated, is oats soaked overnight in yogurt or similar fermented dairy and then served the next morning with grated apple, nuts, raisins or whatever.
Since most oats today, and in the U.S., have probably been heated in processing, if they are flakes in particular, all enzymes are dead so just soaking doesn't do so much good, especially with the phytates. Although I've seen claims that rolled oats are steamed and that breaks down the phytates.
Thing is I thought about Alzheimer's and wondered if their could be a possible explanation. So I typed in "cholesterol dementia" into google. First study that came up however said high cholesterol may be a risk for dementia. I thought, well damn, but I read it anyways. Thing is high blood cholesterol levels were associated with dementia. So I thought oh and backed out to read the 3rd link down on google which said that a new study claimed high cholesterol levels may help protect dementia.My dad is "not always there" so to speak, so I asked him if he avoided cholesterol in food. He said yes, and he said he also took a statin. His mind seems to be getting worse. I wonder if WGA has something to do with it. I wonder if the body raises cholesterol levels just so it can protect against the damage it causes, or if it even causes damage in the brain.
Well, statins do stop your body from making cholesterol and it always seemed to me they should spend more time trying to figure out why it was making so much, especially considering it makes cholesterol for protection.
My 90 year old grandmother has been taking statins for at least 10 years and has bread with practically every meal. And usually it's her own homemade bread which is both quite dense and thickly sliced. But she doesn't have any dementia-type problems. Not particularly noticeable anyway. I was watching her can peaches or something and she had to keep referring to the directions which I thought was a possibly a sign considering she's been canning for at least 70 years. Probably since a small child as one of the oldest in a very large family.
Now my grandfather had Alzheimer's and ate about the same amount of bread. But I don't recall that he had high cholesterol and died before statins.
I'm actually from Switzerland, so I got very easy access to all this promising stuff. Will go on a traditional diet I guess 😀Oh would that be great if I could have (real) mesli every morning. It's the best thing ever, and very filling
So am I right about real muesli? I've read lots of stories and recipes that don't involve yogurt or fermented dairy, but the milk and oats were a lot more likely to be raw back in the day. And the stories say it was invented in 1900 by a physician who was served something similar on a hike in the mountains, so the dish he was served is the probably the real, traditional dish, not the dish he introduced. Maybe made with raw goat milk or something.
Well, there's actually no 'real' muesli, as each region has its own variety.
But the most common thing between all, is a LOT of raw fruits (even more than oats itself sometimes). Also, the 'original' version did contain sweetened 'Evaporated milk' (100s of years ago, hygiene reasons), and RAW (!) oats (soaked 12 hours in water), lemon juice and raw apples & nuts..
Only LATER yoghurt, sugar or honey was added and the oats became processed to be instant. Traditional farmers probably took raw milk too (and they still drink that in mountain regions), but the 'history' says that even back then the traditional farmers were using sweetened condensed milk. So the main difference is obvioulsy the oats (raw vs. rolled)
P.S. - venam, I know I've read somewhere that Greeks and Romans used to eat bread with cheese for breakfast. Come to think about it, Greek cheese to me (feta, etc) seems to be of the softer variety, which means it might have more whey -> more NANA. Could explain the French Paradox, too.
They eat bread and cheese for breakfast in lots of places in Europe. It used to be one of my favorites after being served it in B & Bs and youth hostels along time ago.
P.S. - venam, I know I've read somewhere that Greeks and Romans used to eat bread with cheese for breakfast. Come to think about it, Greek cheese to me (feta, etc) seems to be of the softer variety, which means it might have more whey -> more NANA. Could explain the French Paradox, too.They eat bread and cheese for breakfast in lots of places in Europe. It used to be one of my favorites after being served it in B & Bs and youth hostels along time ago.
When I went to Sweden when I was 14, none of the teens I met had any acne, and the family I was staying with ate cheese on bread (white bread no less) every morning at breakfast. It is super yummy too! lol.
I baked some bread today. Results were not great, but don't let my test discourage you; it wasn't really scientific at all. Test yourself.
So I started a sourdough culture about a week ago, with a small amount of white bread grade flour and the rest, a large amount of all purpose white flour. 3 days in it was a wet starter, started bubbling the 2nd day (use your dirty hands to mix if you ever make one, it goes faster). On the 4th day I noticed this isn't going to be handleable, so I added more flour, 2 cups thinking it was enough. Next day I checked it, and it still wasn't handleable, so I added about one more cup of flour to the whole thing, which made it bread dough consistency. Nonetheless, I snapped out a chunk, added 3 egg yolks to it, and set it aside for rising.
All purpose flour has noticeably less gluten than bread flour, and even spelt for that matter which was surprising. The wet flour does not stick together as well and is easier to get off your hands. Anyways nine hours through the 6th day (today), I started baking. I added pork hock juice (glucosamine) to the top crust just to aid in any help. Once it was done after 20 minutes, I let it cool. The bread had risen a great amount, and the crumb was normal.
When I bit into it I noticed it still gave me problems (rather instantly, allergy?). My intestines began to feel heavy, sort of irritated as soon as it hit my stomach. The face irritation was less, like all the gluten grains I've tried fermenting, and wasn't as bad as say a flour tortilla. Still was there though. I couldn't tell if the egg yolks did anything or not. One thing I did try that helped was dipping the bread in pork hock juice (glucosamine), which reduced any inflammation it caused on my face A LOT. Still the bread was bothering my stomach, and towards the end I could not finish it and had to spit out what was left in my mouth and throw the rest away. It was reminiscent of trying to eat cheese again, it tasted great and disgusting at the same time. This time more disgusting.
Some things could have skewed results (well a lot of things lol):
- added more flour shortly (1/2 day) before cooking it.
- ate quite a bit.
- trace amount of egg whites could of bothered me since they bother my stomach. (could be egg yolks, too; I haven't tested them yet)
I've been reading about how gluten interacts with the body and it looks like there's more than just two peptides that react with the body. The 33mer peptide region in kinds of gliadin itself show 6 areas that can bind t-cells, so we might not just be able to supplement NAG or NANA and inhibit reactions. Maybe they all bind the same sugars, but idk.
Going back through several lectin sites that's been linked around I noticed three things:
[Removed]
QuoteLectins can be inactivated by specific carbohydrates (technically known as mono and oligosaccarides) which can bind the 'key' and prevent the protein from attaching to the carbohydrate 'lock' within the cell membrane. Glucosamine is specific for wheat lectin and it is this specificity that may protect the gut and cartilage from cell inflammation and destruction in wheat (or gluten) responsive arthritis.While various foods and supplements may inactivate some of these toxic lectins it is impossible for such substances to protect the body from them completely. The safest path is avoidance of known toxic lectins. Common foods with known toxic lectins include all soy and wheat products including oils from these substances.
So I can think of a few ways to attack this problem:1) Take into account carbohydrate moieties of lectins in food by following proper, and most likely traditional, food combinations or perhaps supplement with these moieties, or "glyconutrients".
2) Ferment your foods which potentially hydrolyzes problematic peptides in lectins or inhibitors, increases moieties (NAG, NANA?), and increases acid amount which denatures protein peptidase inhibitors as well as lectins themselves, making them easier for digestive enzymes to work on.
3) Sprout your grains so natural enzymes in food break down anti-nutrients and inhibitors, which leads to better break down of lectins.
4) Fix your melatonin cycle by following natural sun cycle/getting brighter light while eating, which has been shown to enhance digestion (more peptidase?). (taken from databased's theory; correct me if I got this wrong)
What a freak chance it was for some ancient society to successfully develop from eating baked rotten mush while drinking the juice from a cow's tit.
Nasty. I'm going to stick to my rotten steamed Calrose rice TYVM. 😀
I think we need all of the above 4 items, although I'll have to look into the melatonin cycle affecting peptidase. I know it affects carb metabolism.
I'm sorry your experiment didn't work. You are really intolerant. To all grains right? And legumes?
I made bread with the 5-minutes a day method (which is a silly name because there's no daily work involved and what work there is takes more than 5 minutes) in which dough for several loaves is made and kept for up to 2 weeks in the fridge as scoop out some to make a loaf whenever you want. I left it for 4 days before using. I substituted some other flours and as a result my dough was too wet. Still it made ok bread. And I had no problems digesting it. But then, I never notice any problems with bread, grains, legumes, etc.
Maybe you could try their gluten free recipe, but one of the flours isn't so easy to come by.
Anyway, I had bread and cheese toasted in the toaster oven for breakfast this morning.
It probably took many centuries for bread even remotely like we know it to evolve from mush. First they had to observe that things happened to milk and wet grains when they sit around for a while in the heat. They had to figure out to mill the grains. And they needed ovens. A lot of the old middle Eastern grains are low gluten and make poor bread.
people here have been eating bread and butter/cheese for centuries without problems. My great-uncle for example who is about 85 or so and in great health has been eating it for whole his life, EVERY day... Also, allergies are pretty rare in Europe in general, so it t HAS to do with how your bread is made. Even white bread doesn't seem to cause that much problems, italians/greeks for ex. eat it every day. But then again, the sun light may play a role in that case. Northern europe countries almost never eat white bread (traditionally), and the further north you go, the DARKER THE BREAD.
Also, it would be interesting if it's the case in the U.S.: Are allergies less common in sunny regions?
Yeah, but is that darker bread whole wheat or rye? Big difference in WGA between the two, I think. White bread would be even less of a problem, other than insulin. Dairy would help in any case with gluten. About the allergies/sun though: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/11/2769736.htm . Most allergies ARE lectins (well not in some cases, but they're proteins, read below), and would react with the immune system the same way SIgA in raw milk would bind to them.
Anyways, found this awhile ago dunno why I didn't share it:
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/content/openin...n-human-disease
He had a previous article up about what WGA can do. This one though goes into more detail about how WGA can affect various cells in our bodies (mentions how it can cross the BBB and could potentially attach to neurons due to it's NANA binding properties, go me lol). Found his website again as it was shut down for a while.
I was wondering if rice would be as insulin mimicking as WGA since they both bind to NAG. I wonder if the sialic acid containing proteins and lipids could unattach themselves and cause damage in the brain or elsewhere. This whole theory has gotten me paranoid.
alternativista, the study databased used to show lack of sunlight -> carb malabsorption used a hydrogen breath test to specifically show carb malabsorption. It's not like they tested the output of the pancreas' enzymes or something. I'd be thoroughly surprised if sunlight only affected amylase and not other enzymes as well. I haven't reread the pathology of his theory yet (been meaning to), but the correlations he shows with acne (low zinc and tryptophan affecting ZSOD) could also be applied to anti-nutrients and peptidase inhibitors. In beans there's phytic acid which binds zinc, as well as phosphorus, calcium, and iron. And I don't understand what carbs have to do with tryptophan, since that's an amino acid (again might need to reread).
We might not NEED that much bright light (some places in Northern Europe only got 6 hours a day, IIRC? which seems to show why america and australia have high melanoma rates, high immigration of white peoples; then again speculation blah blah). I guess we could think of fermentation as our first gut?
And I don't understand what carbs have to do with tryptophan, since that's an amino acid (again might need to reread).
I have to reread it too, but I think the carb malabsorption from lack of bright light is mostly a separate issue. The tryptophan is to make the seratonin to make the melatonin for sleep for the ZSOD production.
He does state 'you get carbohydrate malabsorption that keeps it from effectively digesting tryptophan' but I don't know where that comes from. The second link has a link to the study on SOD and acne.
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Zinc-Zinc...ul-t243340.html
http://www.acne.org/messageboard/Super-oxi...ge-t245268.html
So much for me soaking nuts. Unfortunately, it takes too much time and effort for me so I'll be eating them raw in moderation.
I soaked like half a kilo and roasted them and a few days later they had mould all over them so I had to throw the whole batch out. I even ate a few in the days in between (when there was no 'seeable' mould ew). I know they were still somewhat damp. Doh!
So much for me soaking nuts. Unfortunately, it takes too much time and effort for me so I'll be eating them raw in moderation.I soaked like half a kilo and roasted them and a few days later they had mould all over them so I had to throw the whole batch out. I even ate a few in the days in between (when there was no 'seeable' mould ew). I know they were still somewhat damp. Doh!
You do need to dry them out. Did you try a fan? Do you have an oven that can keep a low temperature? Heat lamp?
So much for me soaking nuts. Unfortunately, it takes too much time and effort for me so I'll be eating them raw in moderation.I soaked like half a kilo and roasted them and a few days later they had mould all over them so I had to throw the whole batch out. I even ate a few in the days in between (when there was no 'seeable' mould ew). I know they were still somewhat damp. Doh!
You do need to dry them out. Did you try a fan? Do you have an oven that can keep a low temperature? Heat lamp?
Can you at them without drying out as long as you eat them right after? What I am doing right now is that I let them soak from the morning and eat them at night without drying them out (replace the water multiple times through out the day). Do you know if this is OK or do I have to dry them out even if I am not gonna store them?
Who here is soaking grains before eating? And why?
Me. And ????. The why is the topic of this thread. But I'll sum up. Because of the phytates that bind up nutrients and because of lectins, highly inflammatory and damaging anti-nutrients that in addition to affecting acne indirectly in many ways like damaging intestines it may have a direct impact on acne.
I know, it's an interesting thread, but I can't entirely wrap my head around it. Is it the phytic acid? (which, besides interfering with zinc absorption, is considered to be cancer-preventing...) The so-called "enzyme inhibitors"? The lectins? The gluten? (which I've heard said is easier to digest for Celiacs when soaked)?
Assuming one or all of these rationales makes sense, wouldn't sprouted bread be a simple way to continue eating grains but without these potential side effects? I've been seeing more brands and types available in the store lately.
As far as soaking goes, what "grains" besides that in the form of bread, are people eating? Oatmeal, beans and brown rice are the only ones I can think of in my own diet.
Soaking nuts seems a little extreme, in my opinion.
I know, it's an interesting thread, but I can't entirely wrap my head around it. Is it the phytic acid? (which, besides interfering with zinc absorption, is considered to be cancer-preventing...) The so-called "enzyme inhibitors"? The lectins? The gluten? (which I've heard said is easier to digest for Celiacs when soaked)?Assuming one or all of these rationales makes sense, wouldn't sprouted bread be a simple way to continue eating grains but without these potential side effects? I've been seeing more brands and types available in the store lately.
As far as soaking goes, what "grains" besides that in the form of bread, are people eating? Oatmeal, beans and brown rice are the only ones I can think of in my own diet.
Soaking nuts seems a little extreme, in my opinion.
Yes. All of the above.
Yes. Sprouting and fermenting in addition to soaking are all methods mentioned here. You sprout by soaking. And they are traditional cooking methods used for centuries before we got in so much of a hurry.
Well, this isn't about grains but all seeds and products from animals fed seeds (which is not their natural diet) plus a few other high lectin foods like nightshades. And yes oatmeal, beans and brown rice are probably the most common. Quinoa, barley, and buckwheat are also pretty popular.
Also, I'm not sure purchased sprouted grain breads are better, unless they are gluten free. Because otherwise they add gluten, and I don't know at what point. does the gluten get fermented at all? If they let the dough rise slowly, then maybe.
Depends on how much you eat, what else you eat, how sensitive you are, how badly you want all the nutrients bound up inside the nut...
