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high gi/gl and high carb diets also mean high insulin.Dr. loren cordain (paleo diet)suggests acnes underlying cause to be hyperinsulinemia(insulin resistance) and in typical cases of pcos in women usually also have acne and are treated with insulin sensitizing drugs like metformin with great success.
makes you think it could be same for the guys as well, but ive never read a study that examines peoples insulin levels and glucose tolerance in relation to their severity or presence or lack of acne. If anyone ever does send it my way Please.
Hey autonomous, do you still happen to have that image of the cascade of omega 3 down the conversion course (the ALA > d6d enzyme> DHA > EPA > **) It even had the GLA's in there from AA. Could you post the link? I'm trying to find it. I want to study it more. I would really appreciate it 🙂
its from wiki dude!!!
here it is for your enjoyment.
the chart
and also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eicosanoid
high gi/gl and high carb diets also mean high insulin.Dr. loren cordain (paleo diet)suggests acnes underlying cause to be hyperinsulinemia(insulin resistance) and in typical cases of pcos in women usually also have acne and are treated with insulin sensitizing drugs like metformin with great success.
makes you think it could be same for the guys as well, but ive never read a study that examines peoples insulin levels and glucose tolerance in relation to their severity or presence or lack of acne. If anyone ever does send it my way Please.
Hey autonomous, do you still happen to have that image of the cascade of omega 3 down the conversion course (the ALA > d6d enzyme> DHA > EPA > **) It even had the GLA's in there from AA. Could you post the link? I'm trying to find it. I want to study it more. I would really appreciate it 🙂
Was that off wikipedia? Also, I recommend reading "The Queen of Fats: Why Omega 3's were removed from the Western Diet..." , Susan Allport. I checked it out of my library. It does discuss the various conversions among many other things in a not too scientific but not too layman terms way I think perfect for our background. Nothing really earth shattering in the book, but a good history of the research.
so why were they removed?
high gi/gl and high carb diets also mean high insulin.Dr. loren cordain (paleo diet)suggests acnes underlying cause to be hyperinsulinemia(insulin resistance) and in typical cases of pcos in women usually also have acne and are treated with insulin sensitizing drugs like metformin with great success.
makes you think it could be same for the guys as well, but ive never read a study that examines peoples insulin levels and glucose tolerance in relation to their severity or presence or lack of acne. If anyone ever does send it my way Please.
Hey autonomous, do you still happen to have that image of the cascade of omega 3 down the conversion course (the ALA > d6d enzyme> DHA > EPA > **) It even had the GLA's in there from AA. Could you post the link? I'm trying to find it. I want to study it more. I would really appreciate it 🙂
its from wiki dude!!!
here it is for your enjoyment.
the chart
and also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eicosanoid
high gi/gl and high carb diets also mean high insulin.Dr. loren cordain (paleo diet)suggests acnes underlying cause to be hyperinsulinemia(insulin resistance) and in typical cases of pcos in women usually also have acne and are treated with insulin sensitizing drugs like metformin with great success.
makes you think it could be same for the guys as well, but ive never read a study that examines peoples insulin levels and glucose tolerance in relation to their severity or presence or lack of acne. If anyone ever does send it my way Please.
Hey autonomous, do you still happen to have that image of the cascade of omega 3 down the conversion course (the ALA > d6d enzyme> DHA > EPA > **) It even had the GLA's in there from AA. Could you post the link? I'm trying to find it. I want to study it more. I would really appreciate it 🙂
Was that off wikipedia? Also, I recommend reading "The Queen of Fats: Why Omega 3's were removed from the Western Diet..." , Susan Allport. I checked it out of my library. It does discuss the various conversions among many other things in a not too scientific but not too layman terms way I think perfect for our background. Nothing really earth shattering in the book, but a good history of the research.
so why were they removed?
Yeah, it should be retitled to "how" rather than "why".
Just to add to this thread...
Been taking them for about a month and so far so good. Haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary happening, so I will keep taking 9-10 a day. My oil production is still on the excessive side though, and I really doubt that will change (although I pray it does).
I'm also taking antibiotics (cephalexin) and washing with Purpose soap 3x a day. My skin is as good as it's ever looked, but that's still not saying much. Will keep taking for another 2-3 months and update if this thread remains active
btw, thanks for recommending this approach NdnRomeo. I took fish oil before but never even close to enough (2 a day at most) until I read this thread.
its from wiki dude!!!here it is for your enjoyment.
the chart
and also
Beautiful! Thanks so much. I still wish we could somehow boost the D6D enzyme somehow, imagine all the bad LA being converted to GLA.
Was that off wikipedia? Also, I recommend reading "The Queen of Fats: Why Omega 3's were removed from the Western Diet..." , Susan Allport. I checked it out of my library. It does discuss the various conversions among many other things in a not too scientific but not too layman terms way I think perfect for our background. Nothing really earth shattering in the book, but a good history of the research.
I am going to try to find this book or download it, must be a good read. Time to dig up torrents to find it.
Tell me a little bit more about it or what stood out the most to you if possible.
[quoteMy ratios vary quite a bit and that's why I think its helpful to track to get an appreciation on how much your ratios can really differ day to day rather than just calculating it once. For example, back when I was eating a lot of nuts and used cooking oils my omega 6's would total up to 20 - 30 g and my ratio would be around 10:1 before fish oil and around 5 or 6:1 after fish oil. I can only imagine what it is for people who eat a lot of processed foods w/ oils.
However, if I eat fish and limit nuts and oils my ratio is around 2 or 3:1. Last week, I started breaking out really bad and couldn't figure out why until I realized I had gone sloppy on the nuts again. For the past 4 days now, I've had salmon everyday and completely avoided nuts (basically the Perricone diet w/o the nuts) and I swear my skin is the best it has been in forever. No new breakouts in this time (and this includes a day and a half of being in a drunken stupor!). I've gotten around 7 or 8 grams of both o3 and o6 (the o6 almost entirely from extra virgin olive oil).
I encourage you all to eat some fish (within safe limits of course) rather than just rely on fish oil! There have to be many additional benefits other than just the o3 especially if we evolved on a fish diet.
Wow that is absolutely amazing! 20 grams! I never knew that was even possible, but wow, crazy. I've actually never tried fish before, and we can't make meat at home, but I bet the benefits are much better, great suggestion. Everyone who can definitely should, it's beneficial.
Well I ordered my fish oil pills (from amazon, the link you provided) a week ago and they finally shipped them. However, I still wont get them for another week in a half (UPS shipping is SLOW). Cant wait to use them.Let me review:
1. How many days until I start taking the full amount (9-10 pills)?
2. What are fish burps? People make them sound so bad, but I don't understand how it would be so bad if it's just a burp.
Damn, that slow? Mine shipped over the weekend and it took about 5 days. That's strange. :think:
You can take more than 10. But basically it's up to you how fast you want to increase it, just take a small dose at first to be aware of how your body reacts to it. Then eventually go up slowly. I guess take 1 with each meal, then 2, 3, etc. I am taking 4 per meal at 4 meals a day. Managable, easy, not excessive, but a good amount. My o6's are really low too.
I doubt you will get them with this brand, but fish burps are exactly that, the fats don't digest, or it's rancid so you get burps from it.
Just to add to this thread...Been taking them for about a month and so far so good. Haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary happening, so I will keep taking 9-10 a day. My oil production is still on the excessive side though, and I really doubt that will change (although I pray it does).
I'm also taking antibiotics (cephalexin) and washing with Purpose soap 3x a day. My skin is as good as it's ever looked, but that's still not saying much. Will keep taking for another 2-3 months and update if this thread remains active
btw, thanks for recommending this approach NdnRomeo. I took fish oil before but never even close to enough (2 a day at most) until I read this thread.
Hey, why not take more? You'll be fine with it, plus, find out how much o6's you are getting in your diet.
Yeah, I think before any of us started experimenting, everyone who took it before wasn't taking enough to see it's full power over a course of time so I think we're still in the experimental phase. But be sure you are taking more than your 06 intake. The lower your o6 and the higher your o3, the faster your body should get back to equilibrium.
I found something interesting when I was looking into Pantethine a while ago. Look at this statement:
Pantethine also allows the adrenal glands to generate more omega-3 fatty acid in the body. Omega-3 fatty acid is well known to have anti-inflammatory properties. Reducing inflammation and inflammatory response is a key recovery pathway in allergic therapeutic setting.
Forget the pantethine for a second, but look at the fact that, it IS possible for your body to naturally generate omega 3's? I thought it was just not physically possible to begin with?
I wonder if we can find a way (not pantethine) but another way where we can help really boost the adrenal glands to make more omega 3? That would be just perfect, if there really is a way.
NdnRomeo, first of all I want to thank you for sharing your success with Fish Oils. I have recently started taking them all because of discovering this thread.
Quick question. I am also taking multi vitiamins, however they are especially for body building and contain more ingridients then the regular one-a-days.
I have been reading through out the thread and you advice against taking Vitamin A. Upon looking at the ingridients of my multi vitaimins, I found it to list:
Vitain A (Fish Liver Oil) .............. ...........10,000 I.U.
Viatian A Activity (Beta Carotene)........... 15,000 I.U.
Doses of both combined account for a serving of 500% of U.S. RDA.
I'm not exactly sure what the I.U. stands for. So I'm curious, is this enough of Vitamin A to work against the fish oil intake?
I'm currently taking 9-10 300mg pills a day. (2.7-3.0 grams).
Another suggestion. I have discovered that the Chicken of the Sea tuna contains 150grams of EPA AND DHA combine in a serving. There are 2.5 servings in a small can, which makes for a little over 300mg's. (A little over 1 pill's worth). So for those of you looking for something healthy to eat as well as adding to your Omega-3 intake, get some tuna lol. Look for the Chicken Of The Sea with a small Omega 3 logo on the side. ( I get a big pack from Costco)
Quick question, i'm a little confused, does fish oil contain Vit. A and E?? or is this just a supplement added to the stuff i take.....
Cod liver oil for example will normally have vit A, so generally most people recommend getting just pure fish oil that doesnt have that added. Just one cod liver oil or something may be fine, but not for larger doses as people suggesting here, so to be safe better with just fish oil rather than something like cod liver oil if taking more than the recommended amounts on the containers.
Nature Made is a real good brand, has 720 EPA/DHA w/o additives and its 100 pills for around 6 bucks. Also, a food you wouldn't expect to contain a lot of omega 6's is avocado, just found that out yesterday. Has about 4000 mg per cup, something to watch out for.
Also a little status update...
After dropping green tea and upping my dosage to 5040 mg per day (just up from 4320) my skin looks ten times better, and its only been a couple of days. I also haven't been eating as well as I should (having steaks, pasta, large sandwiches, etc.), mainly because I just got home and there's really no reason to, but I have been exercising and drinking green tea smoothies. However, I base all of my improvement on the fish oil.
So, moral of the story is don't take fish oil with green tea.
Nature Made is a real good brand, has 720 EPA/DHA w/o additives and its 100 pills for around 6 bucks. Also, a food you wouldn't expect to contain a lot of omega 6's is avocado, just found that out yesterday. Has about 4000 mg per cup, something to watch out for.Also a little status update...
After dropping green tea and upping my dosage to 5040 mg per day (just up from 4320) my skin looks ten times better, and its only been a couple of days. I also haven't been eating as well as I should (having steaks, pasta, large sandwiches, etc.), mainly because I just got home and there's really no reason to, but I have been exercising and drinking green tea smoothies. However, I base all of my improvement on the fish oil.
So, moral of the story is don't take fish oil with green tea.
5 grams of omega 3 or fish oil?
Also you're right, dropping green tea was the best thing I could have done.
I found something interesting when I was looking into Pantethine a while ago. Look at this statement:
Pantethine also allows the adrenal glands to generate more omega-3 fatty acid in the body. Omega-3 fatty acid is well known to have anti-inflammatory properties. Reducing inflammation and inflammatory response is a key recovery pathway in allergic therapeutic setting.Forget the pantethine for a second, but look at the fact that, it IS possible for your body to naturally generate omega 3's? I thought it was just not physically possible to begin with?
I wonder if we can find a way (not pantethine) but another way where we can help really boost the adrenal glands to make more omega 3? That would be just perfect, if there really is a way.
Yes animals make omega 3s from plants. That's why some people take flax oil for omega 3s. But their body then has to convert it and they say your ability to do this lessens as you age. And the fish have already done the converting for us.
I'm kind of interested in pantethine for this reason.
NdnRomeo, first of all I want to thank you for sharing your success with Fish Oils. I have recently started taking them all because of discovering this thread.Quick question. I am also taking multi vitiamins, however they are especially for body building and contain more ingridients then the regular one-a-days.
I have been reading through out the thread and you advice against taking Vitamin A. Upon looking at the ingridients of my multi vitaimins, I found it to list:
Vitain A (Fish Liver Oil) .............. ...........10,000 I.U.
Viatian A Activity (Beta Carotene)........... 15,000 I.U.
Doses of both combined account for a serving of 500% of U.S. RDA.
I'm not exactly sure what the I.U. stands for. So I'm curious, is this enough of Vitamin A to work against the fish oil intake?
I'm currently taking 9-10 300mg pills a day. (2.7-3.0 grams).
Another suggestion. I have discovered that the Chicken of the Sea tuna contains 150grams of EPA AND DHA combine in a serving. There are 2.5 servings in a small can, which makes for a little over 300mg's. (A little over 1 pill's worth). So for those of you looking for something healthy to eat as well as adding to your Omega-3 intake, get some tuna lol. Look for the Chicken Of The Sea with a small Omega 3 logo on the side. ( I get a big pack from Costco)
Vitamin A doesn't work against fish oil or against it, but alone it's dangerous above certain levels. Look under the section dealing with cod liver oil, I posted what the levels are (on the first post). So just something to consider, be careful it's toxic.
I know they sell digestive enzymes, I just wish they had a supplement that increased the D6D enzyme in our body!
OMEGA-3 Alpha-Linolenic Acid LNA (part of flax oil) + D6D -> ... -> Eicosapentaenoic Acid EPA -> Series-3 Prostaglandins [inflammation fighters]
OMEGA-6 Linoleic Acid LA (in many vegetable oils, incl. flax oil) + D6D -> ... -> Gamma Lenolenic Acid GLA -> ... -> Dihomogamma Linolenic Acid DGLA -> Series-1 Prostaglandins [inflammation fighters]
NOTE that D6D is required to generate both of these this way, from vegetable oils, and it is often not available for diabetes and many pre-diabetics or metabolic syndrome, insulin resistant folks.
Incidentally, if you eat the wrong stuff and D6D stops working, then you get Arachidonic Acid (AA), which leads to making Series-2 Prostaglandins... those are the bad guys involved in most inflammatory disease states.
The more D6D we have, the better out conversion rate would be. Imagine being able to convert everything we take in to beneficiary prostaglandins. How can we do this? I bet there's a digestive enzyme for sale that aids in this somewhere.
Maybe that's what pantethine does (as it says it increases production of omega 3) perhaps from ALA to dha and epa?
My face has become better in the past 2 days. (read that as: it has gotten to a point where i can definitively say it has been better and this 'point' has been present for the past two days.)
Perhaps it is down to Omega 3, perhaps something else.
Just wanted to throw some good morale into the fray. 
thanks romeo! youre such a big help :]
no problem, it's my pleasure 🙂 No point in getting clear, if you can't help others feel the same pleasure =)
My face has become better in the past 2 days. (read that as: it has gotten to a point where i can definitively say it has been better and this 'point' has been present for the past two days.)Perhaps it is down to Omega 3, perhaps something else.
Just wanted to throw some good morale into the fray. 😀
Awesome! What did you change in the past two days, or did you increase the dosage anytime recently? sorry if I can't remember properly due to lots of posts, but what level are you at now and how long have you been on it?
I can't wait 1, 2, and 3 months more down the line to see where we all are, this is exciting!
I think I am going to start exercising. now that I am summer break I'm free.
Since I now have a 1 on 1 fighting chance to totally prevent acne all together, I am going to start doing cardio daily or every other day. Does anyone else want to start with me? No better way to flush our pores out than natures way of intending to do so: sweating. I think this could help lots, plus the gentle sun exposure for short period of time.
Anyone else wants to commit? We might as well get super healthy along the way of getting clear. It would benefit our whole lives ahead of us too.
Plus it reduces stress:
Stress causes worsening of acne in two ways. First, by stimulating adrenal glands to produce more hormones and secondly, by slowing down the healing process.
Adrenal glands, which are located above the kidneys, secrete norepinephrine and epinephrine under stress and adrenal cortex secretes male hormones. These male hormones are well known for stimulating the sebaceous gland to secrete more sebum, which ultimately results in the formation of acne.
It has also been established that psychological stress can decrease the wound healing capacity of immune systems up to 40%. This factor doubles the impact of stress on acne.
Stress not only affects acne flare-up, in general it worsens the overall skin condition. It induces the adrenal glands into overproduction of cortisol, a steroid, which in turn makes sebaceous glands produce more oil and make skin extra oily.
So who's down? I want to do it with support too, it would be fun.
this was asked in the other thread...can you take fish oil and ACV at the same time? does it cancel each other out? or no
Good question,
I found this:
http://www.nutritionexpress.com/supplement...+cider+vinegar/
Vinegar is believed to support fat burning activity, so it may support a healthy weight loss program.
So it can hinder it. I remember when I used to take acv, I would get noticably hungry much faster. It was odd. Plus I had no digestion gas. But I think if we eat healthy, we won't need acv to clear out our systems since we already eat healthy. :think:
nope, winter just starting over here in SA. i would'nt mind eating fish every night, but from what i have read, no fish is safe, ... something about the americans and mecury pollution of the sea..., or something, hehe! just a joke. Romeo, what is your diet like. i had a look at the breakdown on nutritiondata.com, and most foods, except for fish, contains, on average, + 10 times more O6 than O3. shocking. so how do you maintain the 1:1.
Not strictly related, but I found this article about D6D:
One of the most common blocks in the prostaglandin chain involves delta-6 desaturase (D6D), the first sept in the production of prostaglandins from essential fatty acids. When action of this enzyme is blocked, so is the entire pathway. This vital enzyme is inhibited first and foremost by trans fatty acids found in margarine, shortening and hydrogenated fats.2 These should be avoided at all costs. In addition, excess omega-6 fatty acids from modern commercial vegetable oils inhibits the pathway that leads to the Series 3 group. This is because both pathways begin with desaturation by the same delta-6 desaturase enzymes. Too much omega-6 in the diet "uses up" the delta-6 desaturase enzymes needed for the omega-3 pathway.3
The modern diet contains large amounts of omega-6 fatty acids compared to that of a generation ago, because high omega-6 oils from soy, corn, cottonseed and safflower have been introduced into the food supply. They are used to make hydrogenated fats and as a replacement for traditional fats and oils such as olive oil, butter, coconut oil, goose fat and lard. The modern diet is also deficient in omega-3 fatty acids compared to that of a generation ago because modern farming methods have the effect of increasing the amounts of omega-6 and oleic acid in vegetables, fruits, fish, eggs, grains and legumes, while decreasing the amount of valuable triple unsaturated omega-3. A good way to put omega-3 fatty acids back into the diet is to add a small amount of flax oil, rich in linolenic acid, to salad dressing.
From: http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/tripping.html (this page also has a good fatty acid pathway diagram too.)
So, there is a definite link between Omega 6 'using up' D6D, which inhibits the Omega-3 pathway.
From what I've read, we cannot have D6D supplements for some reason. I can only guess that it's not a stable enough compound to be able to make into supplements that we can take, or that it will be broken down in stomach acid before it can do any good.
I did find another, not too reliable, article which states:
Since we can't take supplements of D6D, GLA supplements may be used to bypass this step in the biochemical chain of reactions required to produce beneficial prostaglandins.
They also went on to say that:
Borage oil or other oils high in GLA taken orally or applied topically appear to affect the texture, suppleness and moisture content of skin positively.
From: http://www.internationalweightlosscouncil....tore/h4946.html
Whilst probably not the most reliable of sources, the content of the article does make sense. This would suggest that to boost D6D enzyme levels, we need to supplement with GLA. Apparently, one of the best sources of GLA is Borage Oil. However, I distinctly remember (but can't find where), many people having adverse reactions when taking borage oil. Can anyone remember this at all?
This article also goes on to say:
Conditions known to impair D6D activity include:
* Aging (the ability to make eicosanoids at age 65 is 1/3 what it was at age 25)
* High amounts of insulin (diabetes, high carbohydrate diets, alcohol consumption
* Overabundance of alpha linolenic acid (ALA). Some oils are high in ALA
* Trans fatty acids (found in margarine and other partially hydrogenated vegetable oils)
* Disease, especially viral diseases
* Elevated levels of adrenaline and cortisol produced in response to stress
* Underactive thyroid
* Nutrient deficiencies including zinc, magnesium, vitamin C, B-6 and niacin
Just for your information really. I'm not sure how many of us fit into any of these categories, but if you do, it could be a cause of your acne. I just hope I don't still have acne at 65!!
So, if anyone can remember what happened when people supplemented with Borage oil, and it wasn't too bad, I might Guinea Pig taking GLA supplements. I'm not sure how much to take, but I guess I'll start with the recommended dose and see what happens. Anyone got any information about borage oil supplements?
Helen
nope, winter just starting over here in SA. i would'nt mind eating fish every night, but from what i have read, no fish is safe, ... something about the americans and mecury pollution of the sea..., or something, hehe! just a joke. Romeo, what is your diet like. i had a look at the breakdown on nutritiondata.com, and most foods, except for fish, contains, on average, + 10 times more O6 than O3. shocking. so how do you maintain the 1:1.
Yup, all foods contain lots more o6. But gladly with a healthy diet, I only get 2.2ish grams of o6 (I eat the same things daily except the weekends). I mostly eat cereals, whole grains, and egg whites and lentils.
So with my o3 intake, I eclipse it greatly, and faster results follow. :think:
__
Helen,
Great article. I also notice how nutritional deficiencies play a part:
Nutrient deficiencies including zinc, magnesium, vitamin C, B-6 and niacin
I wonder if this is one of the reasons people have success with zinc and those vitamins, it may all boil down to this. Interesting. :think:
At least now if we don't have complete success with just omega 3's on their own, we can further add on to it by supplementing with these and see how much further it can help. Now it opens more opportunities in the future as well.
Actually, after a little more reading, Evening Primrose Oil and Starflower Oil are also good sources of GLA. But I remember someone telling me that Evening Primrose Oil can inhibit Omega 3 ability? Or was that interfering with how Green Tea Extracts work?! I'm starting to loose track!
Helen