Hi guys!
First of all I want to use this opportunity to thank Daniel Kern and all the members and moderators for creating such a great arena to discuss solutions to our problem!
Basic principles
Mechanisms
Acne is caused by underlying gut issues(doesn't mean you have to experience gastrointestinal problems). I followed the protocol on gutflora.com and cleared my severe acne. I had almost forgot about you guys, but then they changed their design an began posting articles on seperate diseases. A post on gut and acne appeared and I remembered acne.org. The very short summary of mechanisms:
- Antibiotics or other drugs, simplified diet, grains, sugar, excessive hygiene, poor hereditary gut flora or other factors promote a damaged gut flora and increased intestinal permeability.
- A damaged gut flora and increased intestinal permeability --> Low-level inflammation
- Oxidative stress and inflammation --> Acne vulgaris
Treatment
No point in starting treatment if you're only going to give it a couple of weeks. Be patient, treatment takes TIME. Those with acne and few other health concerns should follow The Gut Diet. Basic principles:
Several sources of beneficial bacteria in your diet
- Quality probiotics
- Fermented foods
- Fresh, organic, minimally washed vegetables and plant products
- Staying in contact with healthy people and pets.
Prebiotics either from diet or supplements. (Will give initial worsening(gas, bloating, acne++) until gut flora adjusts)
- Leeks, onions, chicory root and more
- Supplement: Start slow(1/2 ts) and work your way up
Diet (Anti-inflammatory diet / The Gut Diet / Paleo Diet)
- Eat plenty: Meat, fish, fowl, eggs, vegetables, Extra virgin Olive Oil, extra Virgin Coconut Oil, Butter/GHEE
- Eat in moderation: Fruits, berries, nuts(if you tolerate them)
- Avoid or eat in small amounts: Grains, sugar, milk, vegetable oils
FAQ
- Where can I read more studies and reports on the gut-acne connection?
Acne vulgaris: A disease of western civilization
Acne vulgaris, probiotics and the gut-brain-skin axis - back to the future?
The gut-skin connection: how altered gut function affects the skin
A new era in the treatment of acne vulgaris
When can I expect to get better?
Most people will begin to see great improvement 2 weeks-2 months after they have
- Followed the diet for a couple of months
- Adjusted to several sources of probiotics and prebiotics (e.g. raw sauerkraut, kefir, probiotic supplements, prebiotic supplement)
- Achieved great digestion. Regular nice BMs
- No food intolerances
When you can put a green check beside all of these lines you have achieved a healthier gut flora and intestinal lining. Inflammation goes down and acne improves:)
Why are grains excluded from the diet?
Oats, wheat and other grains are some of the "worst" foods for people with acne (most everyone else also benefit from excluding grains from their diet). Grains contain several anti-nutrients (phytic acid, lectins, enzyme inhibitors etc.), have a high-carbohydrate density, a lot of insoluble fiber and the protein gluten.
Anti-nutrients, excess insoluble fiber and gluten is known to promote leaky gut. High-density carbohydrates alter gut flora
Recommended reading on grains:
Cereal Grains: Humanitys Double-Edged Sword
The silent killer: Modern lifestyle promotes leaky gut and low-level chronic inflammation
Top five reasons why you should remove grains from your diet for good
Why is milk not allowed on the diet, and why is fermented dairy okay?
Milk is not just this white substance that is high in calcium. Milk is specifically designed to promote rapid growth of a a growing child. It contains several hormones and bio-active peptides that potentially breach the gut barrier. Lactose and casein is also problematic for a lot of people. Read more on the problems with milk
Full-fat, grass-fed, natural (no sugar etc.) and fermented dairy (cheese, yoghurt etc.) is okay because there's very little hormones, lactose etc. left after fermentation:)
Butter and GHEE are also excellent choices.
Lactose intolerance can be treated with probiotics
- What can I eat for breakfast?
For example:
Meat, fish or fowl
Avocado and kefir
Eggs
Kefir smoothie - Properly fermented kefir, berries and coconut oil
Quality yogurt, nuts and berries
Salad with some type of protein source
- What do I have to look for when choosing fermented foods?
It is very important to pick foods that have been fermented properly and still have live cultures.
Examples:
Kefir - Made from kefir grains, refrigerated and no added ingredients (e.g. sugar)
Yogurt - No added ingredients (e.g. sugar) and preferably full-fat
Sauerkraut - Choose raw and refrigerated sauerkraut. The pasteurized stuff you'll find in the shelf of the average supermarket has no live microorganisms.
- How strict do I have to follow the diet?
When first starting this plan you shold aim to follow the diet as strictly as possible. However, it doesn't matter if you cheat once in a while. After some months, when you have introduced several sources of probiotics and prebiotics, you can slowly start to cheat a little on the diet if you want. Most people find that they can eat a certain amount of crappy foods once their gut flora and leaky gut has improved.
- I have moderate-severe gastrointestinal problems besides acne. Will this plan work for me?
Moderate-severe gastrointestinal problems usually involves moderate-severe gut dysbiosis and candida overgrowth. This plan might work for you, but some individuals with candida overgrowth have to use antifungals to reduce the counts of candida before trying to establish healthy gut flora. Look at the gut dysbiosis treatment plan at gutflora.com.
My journey
About me:
Some of you might remember me as I have been a member of the boards for quite some time now. When I first became a member of acne.org in 2007 I was determined to find the "root" cause of acne. I always knew that acne wasn't a natural part of human development and that there was some underlying issue. Even though I was reading intensively I was grasping in the dark, there is so much bullshit out there and 99% of the people giving advice aren't even clear. I tried every natural treatment under the sun.
I have also done two courses of accutane which didn't work. I always knew accutane did nothing to improve the underlying issues, but I was frustrated and desperate and just wanted acne to go away.
After a while I started to read more and more scientific journals and a couple of years ago I knew that the answers could be found in the gut. Some of you might remember "White Fox' anti-candida log" which was a popular thread in 2010. When I started that treatment I was still lacking a lot of important knowledge when it comes to proper gut health. I wasn't totally committed, made several mistakes with diet and supplements and didn't properly heal my gut. It only worked to some degree.
Even though my anti-candida treatment didn't work 100% I was still convinced that my gut was causing some issues. So I continued looking. After a while I found the information now available at gutflora.com. I learned most of my knowledge by studying that site and information from people like Dr. Art Ayers(cooling inflammation), Dr. Loren Cordain, Dr. Weston A. Price and more. Since I was very ill with severe acne, food intolerances and more I used a long time to heal my gut and get rid of acne.
What I've learned:
Most of our immune system is located in the gut.
Modern lifestyle with sugar, grains, antibiotics(and other drugs), simplified diets++ damage gut flora and gut cells.
We get a damaged gut flora with missing species of bacteria and possible overgrowth of opportunistic flora(candida f.ex). Gut Flora plays an important role in keeping our gut wall healthy. When our gut flora is compromised, our gut wall becomes malnourished and damaged. When our gut wall is working propely it allows properly digested food "molecules" to pass through. When it get's damaged unwanted particles can get to pass; causing inflammation.
Gut Dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability resulting in inflammation is the main cause of acne.
I know people on the boards have been looking at leaky gut before. However, it's so important to treat it the right way!
The most important thing I can say is that you have to be determined. This is not some half-ass treatment where you give it a couple of weeks. You're either all in or all out since you have to able to get through some though times.
i agree with some of the information here.
i have read the evidence relating acne to intestinal issues.
our society has made decisions with a model of bacteria ridden with half truths so much as that the pasteurization of milk, the chlorination of water, antibiotics as you have mentioned, the road away from real fermented foods. all these steps have simply traded one class of diseases for another. we no longer have severe transmissible infections, but chronic degenerative diseases from chronic inflammation, due to incomplete bacterial profiles due to eradication of bacteria essential to life.
there are patterns of two autoimmune, inflammatory diseases i have examined,first- inflammatory bowel disease, which may be a caricature and extreme manifestation of the dysbiosis of the gut and the problems it causes, and multiple sclerosis. both diseases have the same patterns geographically as well as chronologically, as well as possible purely bacterial/intestinal origins. the patterns of geographic nature are that of industrialzed nations and that of a north south gradient, where more cases are localized in areas where there are longer winters and vitamin d deficits i propose this may be due to greater incidences of upper respiratory infections and the use of antibiotics, which lead to development of these diseases. the chronological pattern starts at the dawn of food manufactering era, 1029 and wonder bread or the role of white flour in aiding longer shelf stability to processed foods and these business interests. in both diseases, there is a spike in incidence rates from 1920-1930, wonder bread was popularized in 1920, but this is merely one contributer. the second and biggest spike is in 1945, the precise year antibiotics were widely available.
the foundations of germ theory were the basis for many of the applause and spread of antibiotic usage, but is all based on 1930's science, it sold and outdated, based on an old paradigm of the human body and of the world, specfically in relation to our knowledge of bacteria and how they work.
the most complicated issue here is to what extent of the damage have we done and how many diseases are associated with the use of antibiotics and processed food devoid of fiber to feed good bacteria in the gut, and how do we go about fixing it all? probiotics and high fiber is a good place to start, but some bacteria have become extinct in out gut as well.
as a self proclaimed untrained amateur scientist and researcher, i wonder, how could others(who are presumably smarter then me) have missed all this info?
[media] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrA-sku2F78
http://www.celiac.co...-Toe/Page1.html
I would just like to add, Soybean & Gluten are the 2 major Food Allergies. Both are very hard to avoid (Soy being the hardest). They equally devastating to the health of someone that is allergic to either one.
hm I'm a bit lost.
I've been on probiotics 2 times a day for over a year and make my own water kefir, even consume bone broths eat easily digested foods, juice a lot but my acne was/has never improved sadly. I also dont have obvious signs of bad digestion, never get pains or bloating or feeling of uncomfortable and i go to the toilet regulary so I'm really bothered as i put so much hope into focusing on my gut and digestion.
i will still take probiotics because they are good for the body obviously but yeah kinda wish it was easier to detect problems and i definitely dont believe I have an issue with digestion,
considering its been over a year now and my attention to my gut hasnt exposed anything to note, I expect that means my issue is definitely just hormonal becuase i should have seen even some improvment by now? i also dont drink water with meals, all those little things in addition..
I'm getting nowhere with Paleo alone. Can you please give a break-down on your diet and how to heal the gut. Probiotics? In the meantime I will study the link to the website that you provided.
Cool, I have scanned through the gut diet and treatment. Did you do the full treatment for LGS? I feel confident that this could be my problem, I have taken anti-biotics chronically, and have major constapation issues, regardless of what I do.
Hi:)
- How severe is your acne?
- Do you have any other health issues than constipation?
- Do you have several food intolerances?
As mentioned in the original post, I did the whole Gut Dysbiosis treatment
I can say with a 100% certainty that you have gut flora problems. How can I be so sure?
Constipation results from dysfunctional gut flora. Different species of microbes are needed in the gut for proper digestion and constipation results from improper digestion due to missing gut flora.
i agree with some of the information here.
i have read the evidence relating acne to intestinal issues.
our society has made decisions with a model of bacteria ridden with half truths so much as that the pasteurization of milk, the chlorination of water, antibiotics as you have mentioned, the road away from real fermented foods. all these steps have simply traded one class of diseases for another. we no longer have severe transmissible infections, but chronic degenerative diseases from chronic inflammation, due to incomplete bacterial profiles due to eradication of bacteria essential to life.
there are patterns of two autoimmune, inflammatory diseases i have examined,first- inflammatory bowel disease, which may be a caricature and extreme manifestation of the dysbiosis of the gut and the problems it causes, and multiple sclerosis. both diseases have the same patterns geographically as well as chronologically, as well as possible purely bacterial/intestinal origins. the patterns of geographic nature are that of industrialzed nations and that of a north south gradient, where more cases are localized in areas where there are longer winters and vitamin d deficits i propose this may be due to greater incidences of upper respiratory infections and the use of antibiotics, which lead to development of these diseases. the chronological pattern starts at the dawn of food manufactering era, 1029 and wonder bread or the role of white flour in aiding longer shelf stability to processed foods and these business interests. in both diseases, there is a spike in incidence rates from 1920-1930, wonder bread was popularized in 1920, but this is merely one contributer. the second and biggest spike is in 1945, the precise year antibiotics were widely available.
the foundations of germ theory were the basis for many of the applause and spread of antibiotic usage, but is all based on 1930's science, it sold and outdated, based on an old paradigm of the human body and of the world, specfically in relation to our knowledge of bacteria and how they work.
the most complicated issue here is to what extent of the damage have we done and how many diseases are associated with the use of antibiotics and processed food devoid of fiber to feed good bacteria in the gut, and how do we go about fixing it all? probiotics and high fiber is a good place to start, but some bacteria have become extinct in out gut as well.
as a self proclaimed untrained amateur scientist and researcher, i wonder, how could others(who are presumably smarter then me) have missed all this info?
Hi:)
What do you not agree with exactly?
And regarding how we can fix it, I provided links to diet based on scientific research and treatment for gut dysbiosis. To read more on the subject I can also recommend http://coolinginflam...on.blogspot.no/
Gut issues can be one of many causes of the chronic inflammation that is a major factor in acne. And can lead to development of food intolerances.
Hi alternativista:) You're one of the few members I remember from 2007-> when I was active. I agree that chronic inflammation can result from a variety of causes, but the gut is definitely the most important. Read the link I provided above(cooling inflammation) where Dr. Art Ayers with a PhD in Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology writes. He studies the relationship between inflammation and disease. From reading the work of doctors and microbiologists the following is clear:
- Most of our immune system is located in the gut
- Our gut is the barrier between us and the external environment
- Our gut flora can easily be altered by foods, drink, drugs and so on
Not to mention that there has been strong links between acne sufferers and gut issues.
What do you propose as other major causes of inflammation in acne development? Excluding adult acne(25+ years)
hm I'm a bit lost.
I've been on probiotics 2 times a day for over a year and make my own water kefir, even consume bone broths eat easily digested foods, juice a lot but my acne was/has never improved sadly. I also dont have obvious signs of bad digestion, never get pains or bloating or feeling of uncomfortable and i go to the toilet regulary so I'm really bothered as i put so much hope into focusing on my gut and digestion.
i will still take probiotics because they are good for the body obviously but yeah kinda wish it was easier to detect problems and i definitely dont believe I have an issue with digestion,
considering its been over a year now and my attention to my gut hasnt exposed anything to note, I expect that means my issue is definitely just hormonal becuase i should have seen even some improvment by now? i also dont drink water with meals, all those little things in addition..
Whats your diet like? And do you have firm stools?
Do you have any other health ailments than acne?
Currently 40 days into Paleo. I get mainly whiteheads, nothing cystic. Other symtoms, mainly constipation, Mg does not even help to make me more regular, then I also have depression-related issues, and a test revealed severe iron and vitamin D deficiencies. My skin on my body is also extremely dry and is always flaking off, even when eating high fat, almost as if I'm not really digesting anything properly. I don't know about intolerances, difficult to measure, I do think that eggs make my acne worse, also nuts, but can't be 100% sure. Do you think I should start with the Treatment Plan rather?
White Fox- I've tried a few different 'diets' over the two years but now I just eat no refined food, processed anything, drink only water, eat fruits, veggie (juicing mainly) I eat most fish and chicken (organic) and sometimes eggs (free range from our own pet chickens) but yeah I dont eat wheat etc although ive never had a problem with it and occasionally I will eat oats with rice milk, I dont have a problem with food though. In all honest a few months ago I did a test and ate junk for a few days purely to test and nothing at all went on with my face. I know for a fact food does not affect my acne as over 2 years I've tried heaps of things diet wise. But even saying that my entire life I have eaten healthy. due to my life circumstances growing up i never had the 'luxury' of soda or junk etc I havent even had dairy (milk/icecream etc etc) for about 8 or so years. So with my own history of food i definitely dont feel 'eating the wrong foods' to begin with is an issue for me and therefore could hurt my gut. Also would like to re-mention that I cant even think of a time I was ever on antibiotics or meds, only ever the sparing pain killer. My stools are regular and firm yes and as of right now I have no other medical issues, I did have an issue with my jaw but ever since I had my wisdom teeth out that has gotten much better. I havent been sick (cold/flu wise) for a few years, the last time i even vomitted was when I first started juicing and i have a feeling that was due to some 'off' veggies. (oops).
so yeah i guess im too much of a mystery for my liking,
again my acne came about literally in less than 2 weeks. from a clear face all my life, all through my teens then BAM in a matter of two week I literally went from clear to severe acne. Jumped straight onto Diane 35 and went to the docs to start spiro. face hasnt been clear since but if I am strict with spiro it will stay about 95% but i dont want to rely on meds...as you can imagine my fear of going off both will become present when that day comes. ( I have weaned off spiro mid last year for a bit to see..3 months off it and my face was back to severe).
I also have never used topicals, harsh chemicals, I use herbal toothpaste and shampoos. A variety of oils for my face including olive and grapeseed, ACV to replace the acid.
I could just go on and on with what I have tried. I have given up on all supplements also, and herbs. none ever made a difference.
All my tests for vitamins and minerals have come back normal. I did have a b12 issue but that was resolved with b12 injections and has been good since. All my functions have come back healthy. I dont feel sick or 'infested'. I have a feeling I might be a bit depessed but who isnt these days and my acne has caused that, but i definitely dont feel stressed. kinda over bothering any more as nothing has helped moderately :/
I've tried alternative natural hormone treatments but nothing changed.
i also exercise every day for an hour and sleep very well.
:/
Currently 40 days into Paleo. I get mainly whiteheads, nothing cystic. Other symtoms, mainly constipation, Mg does not even help to make me more regular, then I also have depression-related issues, and a test revealed severe iron and vitamin D deficiencies. My skin on my body is also extremely dry and is always flaking off, even when eating high fat, almost as if I'm not really digesting anything properly. I don't know about intolerances, difficult to measure, I do think that eggs make my acne worse, also nuts, but can't be 100% sure. Do you think I should start with the Treatment Plan rather?
Hi Lilo! I can really only talk from my own experience as there are people who know more about this than me(cooling inflammation.com, gutflora.com), so you could try asking over there.
Dr. Art Ayers on constipation:
"
Constipation Means Dysfunctional Gut Flora
Bowel stools are made up predominantly of bacteria and not undigested plant parts, i.e. fiber. Fiber is made up of plant polysaccharides that are not digested by salivary, stomach or pancreatic enzymes, e.g. proteases and amylases that degrade proteins and starch. Fiber polysaccharides pass into the colon where they are digested by gut flora. People with constipation usually have disrupted gut flora, e.g. wiped out by antibiotics, and so the minimal volume of remaining undigested fiber is all that passes out in compact, dehydrated lumps. If gut flora have been exposed to a particular type of fiber and bacteria having the needed enzymes have been brought into the gut previously, then the fiber is digested to sugars that feed the gut bacteria. The increased population of bacteria is what makes up normal, hydrated bowel stools.
Constipation is an extreme example of dysfunctional gut flora and since gut bacteria are needed for the normal development of the immune system that is located in the lining of the small intestines, constipation is also an indicator of a compromised immune system.
"
Actually I would be very happy if I were you. You have located your problem and the most important thing now is just to build up your gut flora.
Hearing your symptoms I think you should try doing the following: Continue Paleo diet and do the following:
- Buy two different probiotic supplements and start taking them every day(100-200 billion live bacteria per day)
- Start eating properly fermented sauerkraut, or kefir if you don't have access to sauerkraut. Start slow
- SLOWLY start taking prebiotics. Start with 1/2 teaspoon.
This will cause an initial worsening because you don't have a proper gut flora at the moment. There's no doubt in my mind that you will get better fast if you're committed!
White Fox- I've tried a few different 'diets' over the two years but now I just eat no refined food, processed anything, drink only water, eat fruits, veggie (juicing mainly) I eat most fish and chicken (organic) and sometimes eggs (free range from our own pet chickens) but yeah I dont eat wheat etc although ive never had a problem with it and occasionally I will eat oats with rice milk, I dont have a problem with food though. In all honest a few months ago I did a test and ate junk for a few days purely to test and nothing at all went on with my face. I know for a fact food does not affect my acne as over 2 years I've tried heaps of things diet wise. But even saying that my entire life I have eaten healthy. due to my life circumstances growing up i never had the 'luxury' of soda or junk etc I havent even had dairy (milk/icecream etc etc) for about 8 or so years. So with my own history of food i definitely dont feel 'eating the wrong foods' to begin with is an issue for me and therefore could hurt my gut. Also would like to re-mention that I cant even think of a time I was ever on antibiotics or meds, only ever the sparing pain killer. My stools are regular and firm yes and as of right now I have no other medical issues, I did have an issue with my jaw but ever since I had my wisdom teeth out that has gotten much better. I havent been sick (cold/flu wise) for a few years, the last time i even vomitted was when I first started juicing and i have a feeling that was due to some 'off' veggies. (oops).
so yeah i guess im too much of a mystery for my liking,
again my acne came about literally in less than 2 weeks. from a clear face all my life, all through my teens then BAM in a matter of two week I literally went from clear to severe acne. Jumped straight onto Diane 35 and went to the docs to start spiro. face hasnt been clear since but if I am strict with spiro it will stay about 95% but i dont want to rely on meds...as you can imagine my fear of going off both will become present when that day comes. ( I have weaned off spiro mid last year for a bit to see..3 months off it and my face was back to severe).
I also have never used topicals, harsh chemicals, I use herbal toothpaste and shampoos. A variety of oils for my face including olive and grapeseed, ACV to replace the acid.
I could just go on and on with what I have tried. I have given up on all supplements also, and herbs. none ever made a difference.
All my tests for vitamins and minerals have come back normal. I did have a b12 issue but that was resolved with b12 injections and has been good since. All my functions have come back healthy. I dont feel sick or 'infested'. I have a feeling I might be a bit depessed but who isnt these days and my acne has caused that, but i definitely dont feel stressed. kinda over bothering any more as nothing has helped moderately :/
I've tried alternative natural hormone treatments but nothing changed.
i also exercise every day for an hour and sleep very well.
:/
To clarify something important:
This board always talks about specific foods causing acne. IT'S BULLSHIT! Let me explain!
No foods cause acne in themselves(grains and sugar can sometimes be exceptions). They only contribute to inflammation and acne if the body cannot digest the food properly. True food allergies are extremely rare. Difficulty digesting certain foods and food intolerances are very common in modern civilizations and result from a dysfunctional gut flora. Different species of bacteria digest different parts of the food.
I just mentioned this here because you talk a lot about your diet. It doesn't matter what type of diet you have been on. Paleo Diet can easily cause inflammation and acne if your gut isn't digesting the foods properly. But, anyways: Your case seems very tricky. I would introduce a lot of beneficial bacteria and prebiotics for several weeks to see how you react.
Good luck:)
Gut issues can be one of many causes of the chronic inflammation that is a major factor in acne. And can lead to development of food intolerances.
Hi alternativista:) You're one of the few members I remember from 2007-> when I was active. I agree that chronic inflammation can result from a variety of causes, but the gut is definitely the most important.
Gut issues aren't the most important if you don't have them. You have something else. None of the info you've posted changes that fact,
I had severe acne and grotesquely oily skin, but obviously didn't have much issues with my gut or my skin wouldn't have cleared so quickly after I quit drinking sodas and began improving my diet. And I did this after reading post after post from Atkins dieters during the last big Atkins fad claimed that the diet cleared their skin. And Atkins dieters don't tend to be consuming food that's easy to digest and healing to the digestive tract.
If you do have issues that simply eating right won't fix, then you probably have many other symptoms such as a lot of allergies, fatigue, gastrointestinal distresses, etc., such as described by the last guy to come along and say that we all have this problem and it was the 'one true cause' of acne in this thread: http://www.acne.org/...-you-have-acne/ . In which, as proof of his claims, he describes all of his problems, none of which I had.
I agree that gut health is important. And I don't doubt that many people have a damaged digestive tract, but not all. If you do, you need to fix it.
But it isn't 'the one true cause.' There really is no such thing. the closest you could claim is chronic inflammation that can and does come from many sources which is bad for everyone but when combined with genetic influence leads to acne. And maybe the fact that people and animals prone to skin issues of all types have sebum/skin deficient in linoleic acid. And the linoleic acid is antinflammatory which is one of the many ways it's involved in healthy skin.
This board always talks about specific foods causing acne.
Correction. Newbies talk, usually ask, about specific foods causing acne.
People who do some reading and research talk about individual food intolerances, very commonly problematic foods, nutrients and the lack thereof, and postprandial effects of foods/meals such as the inflammation and hormone excess caused by high glycemic diet habits.
No foods cause acne in themselves(grains and sugar can sometimes be exceptions). They only contribute to inflammation and acne if the body cannot digest the food properly.
It doesn't matter if you have no problem digesting sugar. Every time you ingest more than your cells can take in and your liver can store, you cause damage. Sugar always has an impact. It just varies how much with things like muscle, physical activity and sleep affecting how much you can consume.
Gut issues aren't the most important if you don't have them. You have something else. None of the info you've posted changes that fact,
When I say gut issues I don't mean that you need to actually have gastrointestinal problems. Increased intestinal permeability doesn't always manifests itself that way.
I had severe acne and grotesquely oily skin, but obviously didn't have much issues with my gut or my skin wouldn't have cleared so quickly after I quit drinking sodas and began improving my diet. And I did this after reading post after post from Atkins dieters during the last big Atkins fad claimed that the diet cleared their skin. And Atkins dieters don't tend to be consuming food that's easy to digest and healing to the digestive tract.
I don't understand your logic at all. Quitting sodas and improving diet would certainly improve gut flora. Sugar promotes growth of certain species in the gut and a western diet(grains, pasteurized dairy and so on) leads to simplified gut flora and increased intestinal permeability.
Dietary changes can in some cases be enough to clear acne. And I totally agree that some of that is due to other factors than improved gut.
Also the thing you say about people on Atkins getting clear. If you study the biomedical literature atkins is actually a very gut friendly diet; depending on what you eat offcourse. Low-carb vegetables would provide the needed soluble fiber among other things. A diet high in fat is actually anti-inflammatory( http://coolinginflam...r-fructose.html )
Low-carb would reduce count of harmful microbes.
If you do have issues that simply eating right won't fix, then you probably have many other symptoms such as a lot of allergies, fatigue, gastrointestinal distresses, etc., such as described by the last guy to come along and say that we all have this problem and it was the 'one true cause' of acne in this thread: http://www.acne.org/...-you-have-acne/ . In which, as proof of his claims, he describes all of his problems, none of which I had.
Look at the research on low-glycemic load diets, paleo diet and look at the posts in this forum. A small percentage actually gets clear with diet alone.
And yes, I believe the main cause of acne is an unhealthy gut. Do I think everyone's acne is caused by an unhealthy gut, no!
I agree that gut health is important. And I don't doubt that many people have a damaged digestive tract, but not all. If you do, you need to fix it.But it isn't 'the one true cause.' There really is no such thing. the closest you could claim is chronic inflammation that can and does come from many sources which is bad for everyone but when combined with genetic influence leads to acne. And maybe the fact that people and animals prone to skin issues of all types have sebum/skin deficient in linoleic acid. And the linoleic acid is antinflammatory which is one of the many ways it's involved in healthy skin.
Every single thing mentioned in the post about inflammation you linked to is a part of a gut healthy lifestyle. Eat an anti-inflammatory diet, avoid sugar and so on. I've never said diet isn't important.
Correction. Newbies talk, usually ask, about specific foods causing acne.
People who do some reading and research talk about individual food intolerances, very commonly problematic foods, nutrients and the lack thereof, and postprandial effects of foods/meals such as the inflammation and hormone excess caused by high glycemic diet habits.
Avoiding food intolerances is not correct. Avoid food intolerances UNTIL healthy gut flora has been established. True food allergies are very rare. As mentioned different species of gut flora are needed for proper digestion.
It doesn't matter if you have no problem digesting sugar. Every time you ingest more than your cells can take in and your liver can store, you cause damage. Sugar always has an impact. It just varies how much with things like muscle, physical activity and sleep affecting how much you can consume.
That's exactly why I excluded grains and sugar. Foods can contribute to acne even in a healthy gut by causing inflammation.
What I mean is that I believe the main reason(there's also other reasons) someone can live on a western diet without acne and another person on the same diet with acne is due to a difference in gut health.
And to be honest I remember how much I hated "I have the cure" posts when I was active on acne.org. The "difference" is:
- I have done years of studies on the subject unlike most of the "cure" posts which pops up from people in the middle of a treatment they feel works.
- I have actually cleared severe acne this way.
- Several experts support the role of gut health in acne
- There is studies to back it up( http://www.gutpathog...m/content/3/1/1 )
- This isn't some magic pill or cream that will make you better
- Other members have gotten clear this way. Brentons thread is one of the best in acne.org history in my opinion and he got clear by diet and especially improving gut flora which he talks A LOT about in the thread
Thanks White Fox! How long does it take for your skin to improve on following your guidelines?
It depends. The thing people forget is that acne formation takes a long time, it's a reason why most people only improve on accutane after 4-5 months.
Even though treatment takes time you have to remember that this is treating acne at it's CORE. Improving gut flora and leaky gut, reducing inflammation, improving insulin resistance and so on.
If you follow the treatment properly I would say something like this:
Mild-moderate acne + "No" gastrointestinal problems and very few other health concerns than acne
3-4 months to see noticable improvement
Moderate -severe acne + "No" gastrointestinal problems and very few other health concerns than acne
4-6 months to see noticable improvement
Mild-severe acne + Gastrointestinal problems and possibly more health conserns
These cases really depens on the severity and how people manage to stick to the program. Has to be evaluated by case to case.
Recommended reading for those interested in more science on the subject:
Currently 40 days into Paleo. I get mainly whiteheads, nothing cystic. Other symtoms, mainly constipation, Mg does not even help to make me more regular, then I also have depression-related issues, and a test revealed severe iron and vitamin D deficiencies. My skin on my body is also extremely dry and is always flaking off, even when eating high fat, almost as if I'm not really digesting anything properly. I don't know about intolerances, difficult to measure, I do think that eggs make my acne worse, also nuts, but can't be 100% sure. Do you think I should start with the Treatment Plan rather?
Hi Lilo! I can really only talk from my own experience as there are people who know more about this than me(cooling inflammation.com, gutflora.com), so you could try asking over there.
Dr. Art Ayers on constipation:
"
Constipation Means Dysfunctional Gut Flora
Bowel stools are made up predominantly of bacteria and not undigested plant parts, i.e. fiber. Fiber is made up of plant polysaccharides that are not digested by salivary, stomach or pancreatic enzymes, e.g. proteases and amylases that degrade proteins and starch. Fiber polysaccharides pass into the colon where they are digested by gut flora. People with constipation usually have disrupted gut flora, e.g. wiped out by antibiotics, and so the minimal volume of remaining undigested fiber is all that passes out in compact, dehydrated lumps. If gut flora have been exposed to a particular type of fiber and bacteria having the needed enzymes have been brought into the gut previously, then the fiber is digested to sugars that feed the gut bacteria. The increased population of bacteria is what makes up normal, hydrated bowel stools.
Constipation is an extreme example of dysfunctional gut flora and since gut bacteria are needed for the normal development of the immune system that is located in the lining of the small intestines, constipation is also an indicator of a compromised immune system.
"
Actually I would be very happy if I were you. You have located your problem and the most important thing now is just to build up your gut flora.
Hearing your symptoms I think you should try doing the following: Continue Paleo diet and do the following:
- Buy two different probiotic supplements and start taking them every day(100-200 billion live bacteria per day)
- Start eating properly fermented sauerkraut, or kefir if you don't have access to sauerkraut. Start slow
- SLOWLY start taking prebiotics. Start with 1/2 teaspoon.
This will cause an initial worsening because you don't have a proper gut flora at the moment. There's no doubt in my mind that you will get better fast if you're committed!
White Fox- I've tried a few different 'diets' over the two years but now I just eat no refined food, processed anything, drink only water, eat fruits, veggie (juicing mainly) I eat most fish and chicken (organic) and sometimes eggs (free range from our own pet chickens) but yeah I dont eat wheat etc although ive never had a problem with it and occasionally I will eat oats with rice milk, I dont have a problem with food though. In all honest a few months ago I did a test and ate junk for a few days purely to test and nothing at all went on with my face. I know for a fact food does not affect my acne as over 2 years I've tried heaps of things diet wise. But even saying that my entire life I have eaten healthy. due to my life circumstances growing up i never had the 'luxury' of soda or junk etc I havent even had dairy (milk/icecream etc etc) for about 8 or so years. So with my own history of food i definitely dont feel 'eating the wrong foods' to begin with is an issue for me and therefore could hurt my gut. Also would like to re-mention that I cant even think of a time I was ever on antibiotics or meds, only ever the sparing pain killer. My stools are regular and firm yes and as of right now I have no other medical issues, I did have an issue with my jaw but ever since I had my wisdom teeth out that has gotten much better. I havent been sick (cold/flu wise) for a few years, the last time i even vomitted was when I first started juicing and i have a feeling that was due to some 'off' veggies. (oops).
so yeah i guess im too much of a mystery for my liking,
again my acne came about literally in less than 2 weeks. from a clear face all my life, all through my teens then BAM in a matter of two week I literally went from clear to severe acne. Jumped straight onto Diane 35 and went to the docs to start spiro. face hasnt been clear since but if I am strict with spiro it will stay about 95% but i dont want to rely on meds...as you can imagine my fear of going off both will become present when that day comes. ( I have weaned off spiro mid last year for a bit to see..3 months off it and my face was back to severe).
I also have never used topicals, harsh chemicals, I use herbal toothpaste and shampoos. A variety of oils for my face including olive and grapeseed, ACV to replace the acid.
I could just go on and on with what I have tried. I have given up on all supplements also, and herbs. none ever made a difference.
All my tests for vitamins and minerals have come back normal. I did have a b12 issue but that was resolved with b12 injections and has been good since. All my functions have come back healthy. I dont feel sick or 'infested'. I have a feeling I might be a bit depessed but who isnt these days and my acne has caused that, but i definitely dont feel stressed. kinda over bothering any more as nothing has helped moderately :/
I've tried alternative natural hormone treatments but nothing changed.
i also exercise every day for an hour and sleep very well.
:/
To clarify something important:
This board always talks about specific foods causing acne. IT'S BULLSHIT! Let me explain!
No foods cause acne in themselves(grains and sugar can sometimes be exceptions). They only contribute to inflammation and acne if the body cannot digest the food properly. True food allergies are extremely rare. Difficulty digesting certain foods and food intolerances are very common in modern civilizations and result from a dysfunctional gut flora. Different species of bacteria digest different parts of the food.
I just mentioned this here because you talk a lot about your diet. It doesn't matter what type of diet you have been on. Paleo Diet can easily cause inflammation and acne if your gut isn't digesting the foods properly. But, anyways: Your case seems very tricky. I would introduce a lot of beneficial bacteria and prebiotics for several weeks to see how you react.
Good luck:)
I agree, I was on Paleo and I got many new pimples during this diet. It doesn't matter what type of diet you're on if you can digest the foods properly and you have problems with the guts ;p
I agree, I was on Paleo and I got many new pimples during this diet. It doesn't matter what type of diet you're on if you can digest the foods properly and you have problems with the guts ;p
Exactly right! I've tried a lot of different "healthy" diets like the paleo diet before, but if you're not able to digest the foods properly it won't matter what you eat:)
White Fox, my skin is doing very poorly at the moment (understatement of the century), probably the worst it has ever been. Have been regular this last week after drinking milled flax seed with my kefir every morning. Still also taking probiotics. Is this worsening part of the process, should I just sit it through and hope for the best?
Now that my constipation has resolved is my skin not supposed to improve? It does not make sense. Help, please.
Lilo I'm on anti-inflammatory paleo diet again, but today is the second day of my diet. After 2 days I'm 90% clean lol... 2 days, I don't know what's going on. I'm eating fish, smoked fish, grilled fish, cooked fish, vegetables and only bananas. That's all 
but you know I'm taking all supplements to heal my guts. L-glutamine, Colostrum, Lactoferrin, Multivitamin and what will happen after a month. Heal your gut and don't drink dairy kefir
White Fox, my skin is doing very poorly at the moment (understatement of the century), probably the worst it has ever been. Have been regular this last week after drinking milled flax seed with my kefir every morning. Still also taking probiotics. Is this worsening part of the process, should I just sit it through and hope for the best?
Now that my constipation has resolved is my skin not supposed to improve? It does not make sense. Help, please.
One week won't make any difference at all. Inflammation, acne formation etc. takes a long time. You can waste your time forever trying a treatment for a couple of weeks and then jump onto something new. Give something you believe in a long time or you'll never get better. As I said earlier, it's a reason most people only improve on accutane after 4--6 months.
In my opinion drinking mlled flax seeds is one of the worst things you can do as they are very hard on the digestive system. Offcouse they are going to make you more regular, they contain A LOT of fiber.
Stick to meat, fish, fowl, eggs, vegetables, olive oil, coconut oil etc. and A LOT of probiotics and prebiotics.
If you're not going to give the treatment time you should actually find something else and come back when you're really dedicated. Because if you get tired after 1 month you have just wasted that time.
Good luck Lilo, and I know how shitty and frustrating acne can be. Look at the long term is my only recommandation, visualize it!
Lilo I'm on anti-inflammatory paleo diet again, but today is the second day of my diet. After 2 days I'm 90% clean lol... 2 days, I don't know what's going on. I'm eating fish, smoked fish, grilled fish, cooked fish, vegetables and only bananas. That's all
but you know I'm taking all supplements to heal my guts. L-glutamine, Colostrum, Lactoferrin, Multivitamin and what will happen after a month.
Remember that there will be ups and downs you have to get thorugh even though you feel you have gotten better on day 2.
Your diet is great, a lot of meat and fish, bananas is the only thing some people have issues with. Those supplements are also okay(I've previously used some of them), but I hope you also have fermented foods, quality probiotics, prebiotics etc. in your diet as they will speed up your healing.
Colostrum can cause issues for some people as it contain certain hormones.
Dairy kefir is actually a good product for most people. Lactose, IGF-1 etc. are reduced during fermentation.
Hope you don't mind that I chime in with my two cents:-)
Thanks, I have no intention of giving up. Giving up and doing what? That will bring me no closer to finding a solution. Just did not realise that regularity will worsen my acne. I had severe constipation on normal Paleo, flax is the only thing that helped. Maybe I should just try drinking Mg citrate again? Or soak the flax prior to as suggested by deja? Or probiotics overdose?
Glad for you, Bartek, had to laugh at the various cooking methods you have for fish, haha, as opposed to eating this food and that food. I'm having trouble with fish and veg, not very, shall I say, appetizing.
So, I'm assuming kefir is OK then, it was mentioned on gutflora.
Also struggling with insomnia for past 2 nights, maybe all this is part of herxmeier?