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I'm actually following that thread already. It caught my attention too, as vitamin d is one of the things that binds to sebaceous gland receptors. I tried vitamin d a few months ago, but only for like 2 weeks, which probably isn't enough time for it to do anything.
I don't know much about making your own topicals, but maybe you could mix the green tea extract with a moisturizer or something?
Yep lol we think alike.
I currently have a small plastic container with Jergens moisturizer and 20% GTE. The first day it looked okay, but then I think there was a change in the mixture, as it seems to have become more watery than it was when I first mixed it. As expected, the mixture is slowly separating itself too so I have to mix it well before using it. Admittedly I only used it for one night, but when I did I put it on before bed and then woke up and the moisturizer had soaked in but there were tan/brown streaks in the creases of my face from the extract. This lead me to believe that the moisturizer absorbed but for whatever reason the GTE didn't completely absorb in.
Another reason I have chosen to use the water solution versus the moisturizer mix is because numerous sources I've read say that GTE is very unstable in alkaline solutions and stable in acidic solutions. Almost every moisturizer I've ever bought was at least mildly alkaline (you can tell from the consistency and smell), so I think that mixing the GTE in a moisturizer may reduce its effectiveness.
To help create a more acidic solution for the GTE I'm currently using a little bit of apple cider vinegar. The most stable, well mixed, and easy to apply vehicle I've tried so far with this is 10% GTE, 25% ACV, 65% Water.
I think that in a laboratory/clinical setting with various chemicals, emulsifiers, and mixers on hand the GTE would work very well.
But for a traveling college student with only access to Amazon.com lol and basic supplies it is hard to make it in a form that is practical and effective. But I haven't given up yet LOL.
3) What little GTE I am able to get on my face, it seems like it is already evaporated/dried in a minute or two. This is bad because the GTE will not be absorbed that quickly, so what is happening is much of the solution is being evaporated leaving no water/moisture to help the GTE penetrate the skin. That means you're left with GTE simply sitting on the surface of your skin.
Do you mind if I ask what you're basing this on? I don't think I've ever used a topical that took more than 2-3 minutes to absorb.
Also, for reference, I started supplementing with vitamin D3 last week as well. I'm taking 6,000 IU per day. I'm only applying the GTE to half of my nose, so if the vitamin D does reduce my overall oil production, I can still measure the effect of the GTE.
Well, based on my limited chemistry and biology experience lol ( I'm more into dynamics), I think that our goals for this are slightly different. I think with most other topicals the goal is to affect the top layer of skin, whereas with the GTE I think it has to go down further to have the greatest effect. I've looked at three or four studies that used topical GTE for various reasons and they all used a cream/emulsion. Now with emulsions being more difficult to make there has to be some reason why they just didn't do the quick and simple water solution. I reason it's because the GTE works better because the cream greatly reduces evaporation of the vehicle. "A minute or two" in my previous post was more a figure of speech, the actual evaporation time for me with the water seems around 25 seconds.
Also I think this is why just about all topical products are in gel/cream form as well. Active ingredients pass through the skin better when the skin is moist/wet (this I know is a fact) so creams are good because they take much longer to evaporate, meaning an increased "optimal absorption window" for the active ingredient.
But that's just what I think. I've posted a similar question to this on a DIY skin care forum but have yet to get any replies lol
Yeah I knew that studies use specially formulated creams to maximize absorption, but I didn't know if those types of creams were exactly necessary. sepsi's post seems to indicate that a basic water-based solution wouldn't be effective at all. That may be true, but I think it's worth experimenting with anyway. I'm still going to stick it out for at least one month (this is day 8 for me). I don't suppose you know of any easily obtained substances that could serve as good vehicles for skin penetration, do you?
Also, regarding your comment about better absorption when the skin is moist, do you think it would be more effective to apply the GTE in the shower when the skin is the most wet and moist?
Yeah I knew that studies use specially formulated creams to maximize absorption, but I didn't know if those types of creams were exactly necessary. sepsi's post seems to indicate that a basic water-based solution wouldn't be effective at all. That may be true, but I think it's worth experimenting with anyway. I'm still going to stick it out for at least one month (this is day 8 for me). I don't suppose you know of any easily obtained substances that could serve as good vehicles for skin penetration, do you?
Also, regarding your comment about better absorption when the skin is moist, do you think it would be more effective to apply the GTE in the shower when the skin is the most wet and moist?
Yep, sure. So a lotion would ideally be a little better. It would prevent evaporation better and the oils and waxes might help the GTE absorb better. This website is a good reference on how to make lotions with basic ingredients. The important ingredients are the oil and beeswax, and the most important step is the heating and mixing. You can modify this recipe basically to include anything. I don't know what the pH is though, for GTE stability the more acidic the better.
http://www.dailyglow.com/skin-lotion-how-to-make-your-own-using-natural-ingredients.html
I believe the steps they describe are an oil-in-water emuslion. If you want to do exactly like what they did in the Mahmood study, you'll have to create a water-in-oil emuslion. These are much trickier. You'll first want to get an emulsifier with a low HLB value, that'll be the hardest ingredient to obtain. Something like soy lecithin should be okay. If you're not sure what the HLB value is for, and for more info on emulsions, look here.
http://chemistscorner.com/hlb-the-easiest-way-to-create-an-emulsion/
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/articles/27-how-to-make-water-in-oil-emulsions.pdf
http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com/library/lotionmaking.asp
And if you are looking for something to easily add to the water solution to aid absorption, some type of ethanol/everclear/pure grain alcohol would be ideal. Just a little bit would greatly increase absorption. The problem is putting ethanol on your face may not be a good idea, I really don't know if it would cause problems or not.
And lastly, I'm not sure putting in on while IN the shower is good, but putting it on within 15 minutes of leaving it is what I try to do. Your skin is more moist, you're pores are open, and the heat from the shower may cause your capillaries to dilate. All very good conditions for increased absorption. Women seem to have been born knowing this LOL, the ones I've known almost always put on some kind of lotion or moisturizer on after showering.
Yep, sure. So a lotion would ideally be a little better. It would prevent evaporation better and the oils and waxes might help the GTE absorb better. This website is a good reference on how to make lotions with basic ingredients. The important ingredients are the oil and beeswax, and the most important step is the heating and mixing. You can modify this recipe basically to include anything. I don't know what the pH is though, for GTE stability the more acidic the better.
http://www.dailyglow.com/skin-lotion-how-to-make-your-own-using-natural-ingredients.html
I believe the steps they describe are an oil-in-water emuslion. If you want to do exactly like what they did in the Mahmood study, you'll have to create a water-in-oil emuslion. These are much trickier. You'll first want to get an emulsifier with a low HLB value, that'll be the hardest ingredient to obtain. Something like soy lecithin should be okay. If you're not sure what the HLB value is for, and for more info on emulsions, look here.
http://chemistscorner.com/hlb-the-easiest-way-to-create-an-emulsion/
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/articles/27-how-to-make-water-in-oil-emulsions.pdf
http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com/library/lotionmaking.asp
And if you are looking for something to easily add to the water solution to aid absorption, some type of ethanol/everclear/pure grain alcohol would be ideal. Just a little bit would greatly increase absorption. The problem is putting ethanol on your face may not be a good idea, I really don't know if it would cause problems or not.
And lastly, I'm not sure putting in on while IN the shower is good, but putting it on within 15 minutes of leaving it is what I try to do. Your skin is more moist, you're pores are open, and the heat from the shower may cause your capillaries to dilate. All very good conditions for increased absorption. Women seem to have been born knowing this LOL, the ones I've known almost always put on some kind of lotion or moisturizer on after showering.
Thanks for the info! I think the water-in-oil emulsions might be more hassle than I would want to bother with. As for the oil-in-water emulsions, I do have some jojoba oil already so I would just need some beeswax.
However, after looking at all this, I'm wondering if it would make more sense to simply buy a ready-made green tea cream from the store. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. I don't know if you have a reason to think this would be less effective than using a homemade cream.
The serum I'm most interested in after looking around is the SkinActives T-Zone Serum, which appears to have a relatively small number of ingredients:
Distilled Water (Aqua), Lactobacillus/Kelp Ferment Filtrate, Porphyridium Extract, Laminaria japonica Extract, Arthrospira Extract, Azeloyl Glycine, Epigallocatechin Gallate (EGCG, Green Tea, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract), Niacinamide (Vitamin B3), Nobiletin, Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben.
The other products that caught my eye are the Proactiv Green Tea Moisturizer, Alba Botanica Hawaiian Aloe & Green Tea Oil-Free Moisturizer, and Jason Tea Time Moisturizing Creme. I would provide links to these products but I think this site has a rule against linking to product pages.
Oh yea any commercial cream/wash you can buy would bypass all these issues with absorption and stability. I looked at quite a few with GTE awhile back, but it's really hard to know exactly what form and how much GTE is in any of them.
It'd be anyone's guess as to which creams, if any, could possibly lower oil control because of the lack of info about the GTE ingredient on the bottle.
Still might be worth a shot. I probably won't be trying any of them in the near future though.
Notice anything with the D3, Jofo?
What do you mean when you say it's hard to know what form of GTE is in the products? Does it need to be a particular form to be effective?
As for the vitamin D3, I honestly haven't noticed a difference in my oil output. I'm still doing 6,000 IU every day and will probably continue to for another 2-3 weeks so I can say I did it for a whole month. I wasn't really expecting it to work but hey sometimes you just have to experiment with things.
Jofo, because you don't know anything about how many polyphenols are left in the green tea extract they used. It could only be 1% polyphenols and the makers can still call it green tea extract.
And I had to stop my GTE solution trials. No matter what I used as a solvent, the GTE would seperate itself out and settle and stick to the container bottom.
And finally for the good news. I started using Vitamin D3, just 1000IU per day, specifically with the same kind that member "SebumSucks" used in his Vitamin D post. It has been 3 days, and I am stunned but I can say I see a change in my skin. Not neccesarily any clearer or less oily yet, but the texture seems to be changing, it has been feeling sort of "tingly" lately, and I may be going nuts but I think my skin tone evened out. It's too early to tell if these are good signs or bad signs or simply my optimistic imagination, so I will be closely monitoring for a few weeks for significant changes and will then report back.
Hey guys I had to drop the Vitamin D supplement. I got really sick last night and with absolutely no changes in my lifestyle except for the Vitamin D, it had to be the cause.
I was pretty close to seeking medical attention as a precaution, fortunetly the symptoms seem to be disapating.
I posted some more info on the Vitamin D thread
Hey guys I had to drop the Vitamin D supplement. I got really sick last night and with absolutely no changes in my lifestyle except for the Vitamin D, it had to be the cause.
I was pretty close to seeking medical attention as a precaution, fortunetly the symptoms seem to be disapating.
I posted some more info on the Vitamin D thread
I was surprised at your reaction to the vitamin d. You weren't taking very much, and you only took it for a few days. Do you have any thoughts on why it would affect you this way and not anybody else? Could it possibly have been something else like food poisoning?
So what are you going to try for oily skin now?
Like I mentioned in the Vitamin D post, I think it was either a reaction to some other ingredient in the tablet or very low magnesium levels caused by the Vitamin D.
No, I thought about it and it had to be in some way related to the supplement. I doubt I'd get lower back and hamstring pain from food poisoning, those are signs of some sort of a nerve issue. Which interestingly is the main area magnesium affects.
And I'm not entirely sure what's next yet. I'm not 100% in the clear yet with this, as I'm still getting random bouts of nausea so I need to get my system back to normal before I do anything else.
Okay, so I'm finally close to 100% after the Vitamin D supplement reaction did me in for a few days. I've decided that I'm not going to be experimenting anymore with anything systemic, as I realize that I'd rather have slightly oily skin than jack something up internally and not be able to workout or eat like I want to. For me it's just not worth it. I experiment with oily skin alot and while it is something I'd like gone, I'd much rather workout, eat lots of food, and not get ED lol. That means no saw palmetto, vitamins, special diets, and what not for me anytime soon.
But I will still be experimenting with less risky ways to control my oily skin. I always go back to times when I'm at the beach, and after going in the ocean I'm oil free for hours. If I went fishing in the surf and my face was oily, I'd literally splash some ocean water on my face and it was good for like 6 hours haha. So I'm going to be looking at some different salt mixes for use as a toner.
The only 2 things that I can rely on to get clear skin:
1. Antibiotics.
2. Pantothenic acid + L-cysteine
Both of these are only temporary solutions, and they're hurtful to the body.
Maybe your acne will clear up with age, mine did significantly. Unfortunately though, myself and some others suffer from extremely oily skin which has its own set of issues.
Hi Crashoran, could you please explain your success with B5 + L-Cysteine? How long have you been taken? What dosage? Is L-Cysteine better than l-carnitine? And have you noticed a dramatically decrease on sebum?
By the way, And have you ever tried zinc?
I'm 43 years, and still suffering from cystic acne and super oily skin.
Hey guys, salt water solution testing underway. The idea is to make a toner similar to the salinity of seawater, (around 4% by mass), and use it as a toner to absorb oil and keep skin matte for as long as possible. Whenever I go to the beach and splash saltwater on my face, it doesn't get oily for a good 6 hours afterward; and so that's the thinking behind trying this.
I've got to say, so far so good. I put it on around 2 hours ago and my skin is still dry. Usually after 2 hours of no blotting my face is pretty oily. I was afraid it was going to irritate my face tremendously, but it really hasn't. It is more just a little tight and slightly gritty from the evaporated salt (no salt is visible on my skin to the naked eye though).
I'll update in a few days to see how long it lasts and if there's any problems with it.
EDIT: It only lasted about 3 hours
Quick update to say I stopped the topical green tea extract and switched to the SkinActives T-Zone Serum which contains 2.5% EGCg. I'll report back in a month with any results or lack of results.
So topical green tea didn't work for you? I've been considering it, since green tea is supposed to be a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor (which synthesizes DHT locally from testosterone --> oily skin). But if it isn't effective, then I won't bother.
Quick update to say I stopped the topical green tea extract and switched to the SkinActives T-Zone Serum which contains 2.5% EGCg. I'll report back in a month with any results or lack of results.
So topical green tea didn't work for you? I've been considering it, since green tea is supposed to be a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor (which synthesizes DHT locally from testosterone --> oily skin). But if it isn't effective, then I won't bother.
CBIOT13's posts on the last page describe why basic green tea and green tea extract likely don't absorb into the skin enough to have any effect. The EGCg has to be in a cream or serum in order to really penetrate the skin, which is why I switched to a serum containing EGCg. So I'm still testing green tea extract, but I'm using what is hopefully a more effective method.
Okay, so here's a quick update. I have seen quite a few things about niacinamide (Vitamin B3) applied topically to reduce oil. I must say this is one that I looked at awhile ago but never followed through with some trials, and I have to thank moderator AKL for reminding me of it.
It is very easy and actually pretty cheap to just buy some niacinamide powder in Bulk Form on amazon, and then just add it to a moisturizer or solution. I haven't had much time to look up the mechanism behind how it works, but I have seen studies confirming it's oily production reducing ability.
I also ran into some interesting but hard to believe posts about something called Nobiletin. Jofo you may have some experience with this one. Didn't have much time to look into it in terms of effectiveness and practicality.
My last midterms and finals are coming up, so I may be MIA for awhile. Physics III is threatening to absolutely destroy my GPA right now, so that is my number one priority LOL. But come summer time the niacinamide experiments will begin.
Great info, I've been looking into this too and it explains many things about chronic excessively-oily skin.
The big reason why it's so hard to control is the fact that for most people, it's caused by hormones. Specifically, it has to do with either us having large amounts of Testosterone (and its derivatives) OR that our sebaceous glands in the skin are over-sensitive to the average levels of Test we have.
A good majority of the few success stories we have based on this. Green Tea, Saw Palmetto, and Birth Control work mainly because they regulate hormones. Green Tea and Saw Palmetto have compounds that inhibit the conversion of Test to DHT, and birth control works a little differently but has the same net effects.
The problem though, is for men, messing around with our most important hormones is entirely a roll of the dice. It might work, or you could have disastrous consequences. Using this approach systemically I'd only recommend for women.
BUT a topical DHT conversion inhibitor shows lots of promise. I saw a study that showed a 2% green tea cream reduced oil production by 60% over 8 weeks in 20 men. Unfortunately things like this are still in the testing phase.
I think ultimately this is how we will treat oily skin in the future, it's just a matter of clearing the pharmacuetical red tape.
I look forward to reading your next posts. Thanks
I don't think hormones are automatically the reason most people have oily skin. The sebaceous gland has so many different receptors it's insane! Have a look at pubmed paper PMC2835895.
I've seen papers that relate to many of the receptors on the sebaceous gland. While most of the experiments I read about were performed in the lab - so you can't automatically assume they work on a person - there has been success in reduce sebaceous oil production in many different ways.
Unfortunately very few effective products have made it to market, and I have not found any that are safe for me.
Interesting about green tea and androgen: I hadn't come across that link before you mentioned it! I thought that with green tea EGCG being a polyphenol - like nobiletin, tangeritin, quercetin, etc - it was an antiproliferative effect.
I think it's great that you guys are doing some experimentation (though I hope you do it safely)! What get's me excited these days is activated photo dynamic therapy to reduce the size of the sebaceous gland (see PMC3283851).