On 1/25/2014 at 1:58 AM, Hormoan said:

Posted the above @ essentialdayspa first: [Edited link out]

I guess I should had posted it on the acne boards first.

The above also shows the supps I have been taking.

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Hey all. I have acne (age 27 male) and I'm currently having amazing success by supplementing w/ DHT inhibitors to rid myself of acne.

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Question 1: Are there any topical DIY DHT serums out there that can be applied on the face for acne skin issues?

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I know there are some for hair, but I would feel iffy about purchasing a hair product for facial use.

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So far I found that rosemary EO is good for facial use as a DHT inhibitor (& also for hair ladies), but I haven't heard of anyone using it for that purpose (acne issues on the face).

There is also saw palmetto extract that skinactives sells, but they don't state facial % use.

I emailed them about adding it to a B5+HA serum and got what it seemed like a drunk response that had no relation to my question. So I'm going to send them another and hope I catch someone when they're sober.

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Question 2: Has anyone tried or heard of anyone that has went to the topical DHT approach for ridding themselves of acne?

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I searched the internets and did some googles, but can't seem to find anything about DHT serums other than people suggesting a spiro cream.

Wanted to craft someone that would deal w/ skin issues while also dealing w/ acne (in regards to DHT inhibition) @ the same time.

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Thanks for any responses.

DHT doesnt cause acne. Elevated free testosterone and insulin do.

when i researched anti-dht herbs on wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-reductase_inhibitor ) and anti androgen herbs, i remember buying some herbs with the thought of topical use.

one time i tried saw palmetto (from the interior of the capsule) and i had a hard time rinsing it off lol. which caused a huge breakout.

i remember giving thuja EO a fair chance but i didn't noticed any improvement. (and it's not specifically anti-dht, but rather anti androgens if i can recall)

i never got the chance to use all those herbs, i think i used a bit of pine EO buti didn't noticed anything major. i could also make an angelica tea and use it anytime, but the thing is that i got my hands on brevoxyl (4%bp) which made my face acneless, and my back seems to progress by the vitamins/internal saw palmetto and my diet(+day rhythm activty managment if i can put it like that), so i also don't want to mess with that right now.

DHT doesnt cause acne. Elevated free testosterone and insulin do.

This is interesting since it goes against what I so far have read.

Under what mechanisms is the above supps that I'm taking working?

Or are you saying DHT doesn't cause acne directly, but indirectly?

Or are you going out on a limb and saying DHT has nothing to do w/ acne at all.

From what I understood and read, free test converts into 5ar > DHT.

I also understand that not everyone w/ high DHT gets acne. Since I read numberous posts on people using andractim while not getting acne and while others broke out immensely.

I did also see the insulin link(to acne) and I have chromium as well which others mentioned helped. For sensitivities/resistances.

I know this isn't an and all be all for an insulin problem, but was wanting to give it a try as well once I'm able to fully factor in how my current supps are doing.

when i researched anti-dht herbs on wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-reductase_inhibitor ) and anti androgen herbs, i remember buying some herbs with the thought of topical use.

one time i tried saw palmetto (from the interior of the capsule) and i had a hard time rinsing it off lol. which caused a huge breakout.

i remember giving thuja EO a fair chance but i didn't noticed any improvement. (and it's not specifically anti-dht, but rather anti androgens if i can recall)

i never got the chance to use all those herbs, i think i used a bit of pine EO buti didn't noticed anything major. i could also make an angelica tea and use it anytime, but the thing is that i got my hands on brevoxyl (4%bp) which made my face acneless, and my back seems to progress by the vitamins/internal saw palmetto and my diet(+day rhythm activty managment if i can put it like that), so i also don't want to mess with that right now.

I tried breaking a capsule up last night and applying it to my face.

I noticed that it absorbs pretty fast into the skin and also burns a tad. I had no breakout, but I also don't know for sure if it did anything topically for my acne as I only have a few acne spots now compared to around 15 or so before.

In hair topicals apps, it's suggested @ a low dose and I also think they might use a different extract.

I never had any luck w/ using BP.

I want to test out the topical 5% spironolactone cream that some places sell and see how that works.

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Hopefully you can post back jlcampi. Very curious to hear your response or maybe you made a thread on this issue?

DHT doesnt cause acne. Elevated free testosterone and insulin do.

This is interesting since it goes against what I so far have read.

Under what mechanisms is the above supps that I'm taking working?

Or are you saying DHT doesn't cause acne directly, but indirectly?

Or are you going out on a limb and saying DHT has nothing to do w/ acne at all.

From what I understood and read, free test converts into 5ar > DHT.

I also understand that not everyone w/ high DHT gets acne. Since I read numberous posts on people using andractim while not getting acne and while others broke out immensely.

I did also see the insulin link(to acne) and I have chromium as well which others mentioned helped. For sensitivities/resistances.

I know this isn't an and all be all for an insulin problem, but was wanting to give it a try as well once I'm able to fully factor in how my current supps are doing.

when i researched anti-dht herbs on wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-reductase_inhibitor ) and anti androgen herbs, i remember buying some herbs with the thought of topical use.

one time i tried saw palmetto (from the interior of the capsule) and i had a hard time rinsing it off lol. which caused a huge breakout.

i remember giving thuja EO a fair chance but i didn't noticed any improvement. (and it's not specifically anti-dht, but rather anti androgens if i can recall)

i never got the chance to use all those herbs, i think i used a bit of pine EO buti didn't noticed anything major. i could also make an angelica tea and use it anytime, but the thing is that i got my hands on brevoxyl (4%bp) which made my face acneless, and my back seems to progress by the vitamins/internal saw palmetto and my diet(+day rhythm activty managment if i can put it like that), so i also don't want to mess with that right now.

I tried breaking a capsule up last night and applying it to my face.

I noticed that it absorbs pretty fast into the skin and also burns a tad. I had no breakout, but I also don't know for sure if it did anything topically for my acne as I only have a few acne spots now compared to around 15 or so before.

In hair topicals apps, it's suggested @ a low dose and I also think they might use a different extract.

I never had any luck w/ using BP.

I want to test out the topical 5% spironolactone cream that some places sell and see how that works.

-----

Hopefully you can post back jlcampi. Very curious to hear your response or maybe you made a thread on this issue?

Good morning,

Testosterone metabolizes toward estradiol when catalyzed by the aromatase enzyme and dht by the 5a-reductase enzyme. When you take a supplement like a reductase inhibitor it slows the conversion of testosterone to dht. This leaves only one available path for metabolism and that's toward estradiol (estradiol also abbreviated as E2 is the most potent form of estrogen). Estrogen has a neutralizing effect on the side effects of elevated testosterone. It's this neutralizing/opposing/inhibiting effect of estrogen that reduces the effects of testosterone on the sebaceous glands.

Sebum is composed partly of fatty substances. One of the roles of insulin is to allow excess calories to be stored as fat. When insulin is elevated so is your capacity to store fat with the proper intake of calories.

So, testosterone rises, ramps up the sebaceous glands to produce sebum and when insulin is elevated it turbo charges the production of sebum. Some people have had good results by lowering their carb intake. That works very well for me. Others it doesn't help as much so you are forced to lower or inhibit testosterone.

hormoan, do you have "testosterony looks": like deep voice, full beard, agressive impulse behaviour, balding issues, etc?

or rather on the contrary, as i suspect?

So you guys fear insulin? Aaaand did you know that every high quality protein source raises insulin as much as simple carbs? So the only things you could eat is fats and veggies, that's it. I would like to see what the person looks like who just eats fat and veggies, a fuckins skinny fat person with no muscles and would the opposite sex be interested in that kind of fatty ricestick?

hormoan, do you have "testosterony looks": like deep voice, full beard, agressive impulse behaviour, balding issues, etc?

or rather on the contrary, as i suspect?

I don't look like a lumberjack.

I have a mild voice? Not very deep.

I have no aggression issues(other than the below) nor do I have an impulsive behavior. I also don't have aggression even when drunk.

I'm very different though when someone is aggressive towards me.

No balding issues.

ETC? Maybuh.

So you guys fear insulin? Aaaand did you know that every high quality protein source raises insulin as much as simple carbs? So the only things you could eat is fats and veggies, that's it. I would like to see what the person looks like who just eats fat and veggies, a fuckins skinny fat person with no muscles and would the opposite sex be interested in that kind of fatty ricestick?

The idea is to manage insulin spikes by avoiding foods that tend to result in excess insulin production.

When training (which is most of the time) I shoot for 2-2.5 grams/lb of protein. Based on total body mass.

hormoan, do you have "testosterony looks": like deep voice, full beard, agressive impulse behaviour, balding issues, etc?

or rather on the contrary, as i suspect?

I don't look like a lumberjack.

I have a mild voice? Not very deep.

I have no aggression issues(other than the below) nor do I have an impulsive behavior. I also don't have aggression even when drunk.

I'm very different though when someone is aggressive towards me.

No balding issues.

ETC? Maybuh.

what about the beard?

because this is partially why i started taking saw palmetto, see i'm almost 30 and i have the beard of of a 16y kid(by the way saw palmetto grew me a bit of more excess hair within my hairline, but seemingly nothing regarding my beard), and for so long i suspected acne happened where hair should/would eventually grow (but for some reason, maybe just genetic, it didn't).

i imagine testosterone would change quite a bit of ur facial appearance (so that you don't look like a teen anymore), and although i'm not that extreme, there are ocassional people who don't give me more than 23y of age. anyway this is going too far, the idea that i'm trying to get out is that, (at least for us males) acne has nothing to do with excess testosterone&all of it related, in the regular way (like it's always sugested on these acne forums, ..usually by women.. which may have completely separately issues leading to acne).

i'll reseach a little more on the "free testosterone" idea, althogh practically i'm not sure i can do more than i already am(whatching for the liver/adrenals/rhythm flow of the day/night,specific diet&herbs etc).

what about the beard?

because this is partially why i started taking saw palmetto, see i'm almost 30 and i have the beard of of a 16y kid(by the way saw palmetto grew me a bit of more excess hair within my hairline, but seemingly nothing regarding my beard), and for so long i suspected acne happened where hair should/would eventually grow (but for some reason, maybe just genetic, it didn't).

i imagine testosterone would change quite a bit of ur facial appearance (so that you don't look like a teen anymore), and although i'm not that extreme, there are ocassional people who don't give me more than 23y of age. anyway this is going too far, the idea that i'm trying to get out is that, (at least for us males) acne has nothing to do with excess testosterone&all of it related, in the regular way (like it's always sugested on these acne forums, ..usually by women.. which may have completely separately issues leading to acne).

i'll reseach a little more on the "free testosterone" idea, althogh practically i'm not sure i can do more than i already am(whatching for the liver/adrenals/rhythm flow of the day/night,specific diet&herbs etc).

I can grow the top and bottom, but the sides do not seem to want to grow.

I can shave fully and within a week, already have hair growing and slightly noticeable. I'm guessing the week though, but I'm sure it's around that timespan.

I also was suspecting the acne growing where hair normally grew.

I get the random single acne spot on my nose (usually left side) and no hair there, but it's my most oily spot on my face.

No hair on my forehead, very little acne.

Most hair on my chin and this seems to be where I get most of my acne.

Very little hair on jawline, but that's where I get most my 2nd biggest acne spots.

Hair under chin (doesn't really grow uniformly), but I get my biggest acne spots here and they're usually always under the skin and never really come to a head.

hormoan, do you have "testosterony looks": like deep voice, full beard, agressive impulse behaviour, balding issues, etc?

or rather on the contrary, as i suspect?

I don't look like a lumberjack.

I have a mild voice? Not very deep.

I have no aggression issues(other than the below) nor do I have an impulsive behavior. I also don't have aggression even when drunk.

I'm very different though when someone is aggressive towards me.

No balding issues.

ETC? Maybuh.

what about the beard?

because this is partially why i started taking saw palmetto, see i'm almost 30 and i have the beard of of a 16y kid(by the way saw palmetto grew me a bit of more excess hair within my hairline, but seemingly nothing regarding my beard), and for so long i suspected acne happened where hair should/would eventually grow (but for some reason, maybe just genetic, it didn't).

i imagine testosterone would change quite a bit of ur facial appearance (so that you don't look like a teen anymore), and although i'm not that extreme, there are ocassional people who don't give me more than 23y of age. anyway this is going too far, the idea that i'm trying to get out is that, (at least for us males) acne has nothing to do with excess testosterone&all of it related, in the regular way (like it's always sugested on these acne forums, ..usually by women.. which may have completely separately issues leading to acne).

i'll reseach a little more on the "free testosterone" idea, althogh practically i'm not sure i can do more than i already am(whatching for the liver/adrenals/rhythm flow of the day/night,specific diet&herbs etc).

Dan, acne in men is caused by elevated free testosterone and secondarily by elevated insulin.

Dht causes body hair growth and hair loss on your head. Adding saw palmetto would decrease body hair and might help with male pattern baldness. If you want your beard to grow, don't add saw pawmetto.

I have a suspicion that you have elevated adrenal androgens (dhea). Possibly cortisol deficiency if you also have inflamed acne.

hormoan, do you have "testosterony looks": like deep voice, full beard, agressive impulse behaviour, balding issues, etc?

or rather on the contrary, as i suspect?

I don't look like a lumberjack.

I have a mild voice? Not very deep.

I have no aggression issues(other than the below) nor do I have an impulsive behavior. I also don't have aggression even when drunk.

I'm very different though when someone is aggressive towards me.

No balding issues.

ETC? Maybuh.

what about the beard?

because this is partially why i started taking saw palmetto, see i'm almost 30 and i have the beard of of a 16y kid(by the way saw palmetto grew me a bit of more excess hair within my hairline, but seemingly nothing regarding my beard), and for so long i suspected acne happened where hair should/would eventually grow (but for some reason, maybe just genetic, it didn't).

i imagine testosterone would change quite a bit of ur facial appearance (so that you don't look like a teen anymore), and although i'm not that extreme, there are ocassional people who don't give me more than 23y of age. anyway this is going too far, the idea that i'm trying to get out is that, (at least for us males) acne has nothing to do with excess testosterone&all of it related, in the regular way (like it's always sugested on these acne forums, ..usually by women.. which may have completely separately issues leading to acne).

i'll reseach a little more on the "free testosterone" idea, althogh practically i'm not sure i can do more than i already am(whatching for the liver/adrenals/rhythm flow of the day/night,specific diet&herbs etc).

Dan, acne in men is caused by elevated free testosterone and secondarily by elevated insulin.

Dht causes body hair growth and hair loss on your head. Adding saw palmetto would decrease body hair and might help with male pattern baldness. If you want your beard to grow, don't add saw pawmetto.

I have a suspicion that you have elevated adrenal androgens (dhea). Possibly cortisol deficiency if you also have inflamed acne.

my acne, at least on my face allmost never inflamatory. i had severe back acne (reddish, more inflamed, and less whiteheaddy) since highschool because of intense weight lifting i think. but my acne is: ~5 new whiteheads only around my chin/moustache, every 3-4 hours(!).

1. foods like sugar,bread etc, dont bring me immediate(or later) whiteheads. rather they lower my imune system and after 2days or so i start to get cysts, especially if i continue the refined carbs excess 2days in a row.

2. physical effort/physical stress IMMEDIATELY creates whiteheads (within half an hour even), but not cysts in the way that bad food does.

it would be nice to list all the issues we have so that we can get a hormone profile. for example i have cold extremities (even thought i exercise daily), my mom had severe cold extremities. or since going to the gym (highschool) i noticed a slight bit of puffy nipples, but nothing severe.

i'm still trying to discover this "free testosterone".. usually if you tell me about a 16y boy who has full beard (there are many, with deep voice also) i bet u that he doesn't have acne, or at least that after 21y max he has 0 chances of having acne.

also if you tell me about a guy who is bald, or baldish at around 23y again i bet u that has 0 chances of having acne.

the idea behind this is that their male hormones are "settled" (/established/clear/male-specific/etc).

hormoan, do you have "testosterony looks": like deep voice, full beard, agressive impulse behaviour, balding issues, etc?

or rather on the contrary, as i suspect?

I don't look like a lumberjack.

I have a mild voice? Not very deep.

I have no aggression issues(other than the below) nor do I have an impulsive behavior. I also don't have aggression even when drunk.

I'm very different though when someone is aggressive towards me.

No balding issues.

ETC? Maybuh.

what about the beard?

because this is partially why i started taking saw palmetto, see i'm almost 30 and i have the beard of of a 16y kid(by the way saw palmetto grew me a bit of more excess hair within my hairline, but seemingly nothing regarding my beard), and for so long i suspected acne happened where hair should/would eventually grow (but for some reason, maybe just genetic, it didn't).

i imagine testosterone would change quite a bit of ur facial appearance (so that you don't look like a teen anymore), and although i'm not that extreme, there are ocassional people who don't give me more than 23y of age. anyway this is going too far, the idea that i'm trying to get out is that, (at least for us males) acne has nothing to do with excess testosterone&all of it related, in the regular way (like it's always sugested on these acne forums, ..usually by women.. which may have completely separately issues leading to acne).

i'll reseach a little more on the "free testosterone" idea, althogh practically i'm not sure i can do more than i already am(whatching for the liver/adrenals/rhythm flow of the day/night,specific diet&herbs etc).

Dan, acne in men is caused by elevated free testosterone and secondarily by elevated insulin.

Dht causes body hair growth and hair loss on your head. Adding saw palmetto would decrease body hair and might help with male pattern baldness. If you want your beard to grow, don't add saw pawmetto.

I have a suspicion that you have elevated adrenal androgens (dhea). Possibly cortisol deficiency if you also have inflamed acne.

my acne, at least on my face allmost never inflamatory. i had severe back acne (reddish, more inflamed, and les whiteheaddy) since highschool because of intense weight lifting i think. but my acne is: ~5 new whiteheads only around my chin/moustache, every 3-4 hours(!).

1. foods like sugar,bread etc, dont bring me immediate(or later) whiteheads. rather they lower my imune system and after 2days or so i start to get cysts, especially if i continue the refined carbs excess 2days in a row.

2. physical effort/physical stress IMMEDIATELY creates whiteheads (within half an hour even), but not cysts like the bad food does.

it would be nice to list all the issues we have so that we can get a hormone profile. for example i have cold extremities (even thought i exercise daily), my mom had severe cold extremities. or since going to the gym (highschool) i noticed a slight bit of puffy nipples, but nothing severe.

i'm still trying to discover this "free testosterone".. usually if you tell me about a 16y boy who has full beard (there are many, with deep voice also) i bet u that he doesn't have acne, or at least that after 21y max he has 0 chances of having acne.

also if you tell me about a guy who is bald, or baldish at around 23y again i bet u that has 0 chances of having acne.

the idea behind this is that their male hormones are "settled" (/established/clear/male-specific/etc).

Dan, you are tying your self up in knots with anecdotal data and non scientific observations.

The fact that an individual has developed secondary sexual characteristics only means that at one time their hormonal levels were sufficient. Without going through the full list of physical symptoms and complaints of deficiency, plus an exam plus blood work you really won't have a complete picture.

Not sure what you are getting at with the beard comment. DHT is responsible for stimulating body hair (except on the crown of your head) including the beard. Here is where you loose me - DHT doesn't cause acne. So I wouldn't expect to see a correlation.

Hormone levels decline as we age and are responsible for significant loss in the quality of life and degenerative disease. Ideally we maintain those levels with supplementation when levels start to decline. The settling you are referring to is probably the decline in hormones. We really don't want this to happen unless you have an imbalance like acne where the benefit of lower hormone levels is worth the cost of degenerate disease later in life.

Cold extremities is hypothyroid. Sensitive nipples is the beginning of gynocomastia. Quite possibly from your intake of saw palmetto

Reporting back.

During the first week of taking the below:

2x Saw Palmetto Extract 160mg

2x Fo-Ti

1x Licorice Root

2x Stinging Nettle Root (no extract)

1x Pumpkin Seed Oil

1x Vitamin D3 - 5000iu (haven't tested my levels)

1x Lycopene - 10mg

1x Beta Sitosterol

1x Ashwagandha (I take this on and off, but forgot to include it in my other post)

My skin started clearing up very nicely, to the point of only a few acne spots.

Then around 1 week later, I started getting a massive breakout which didn't clear after continued use of the above for 2-3 days.

I also noticed that my libido went downhill and that my motivation to masturbate went somewhere else.

Seemed like a dopamine switch. I know that higher dopamine lowers prolactin, which then lower prolactin = lower 5ar.

I then stopped all supplements for a week and the spots just seemed stagnant. I also didn't masturbate for 4 days, which also didn't do anything in terms of acne.

I then started(3 days ago) to only take 2x Beta Sitosterol daily and acne is lessening at a good rate.

I'm also throwing in licorice root 2x daily as well. Licorice seems to lower free-T (which jlcampi stated was a problem).

So hopefully all goes well. Will report back with good news hopefully.

Was thinking the breakout was just an initial breakout but also a delayed breakout, but I didn't want to take any chances.

i'm curious if ur semen quantity lowered. i think it was from spearmint in my case, but i took a lot of those anti androgen +anti dht teas. also the scrotum shrank a little, or it was more tight, which i think it's good because i always suspected it was too loose (sometimes even in arousal situations).

Well I did bate twice since taking all of this stuff.

One was before I started to break out. Was usually the same as always(quantity).

Second time was after those 4 days when I didn't feel the urge to. I only did it due to my libido being lowered and was wondering if that affected my EQ. Load was huge due to me abstaining those 4 days.

Ive gone around 4-5 days w/o me masturbating. Not sure if my libido will rebound since I stopped taking all except beta and licorice. It hasn't so far.

Scrotum did shrink a little during all this, so now my jeans fit better.