Why do you think NAC is unsafe long term? So far I've read about it depleting C, but no other concerns...Would selenium work much the same way?
It hasn't been proven in studies in people, but still....it's a scary possibility. It must refer to very high doses of NAC, though. The studies on PCOS don't mention any side effects. But Selenium is safer in my opinion.
Scary. OK. I'm sticking with D, zinc, spiro, met and inositol for now.
My skin is not bad at the moment. Some residual lumpiness from old nodules, red scars and some blackheads. But nothing like it was pre-met.
I really think the bad breakouts were because the glucosmart lost effectiveness over time and possibly caused a rebound (the way some birth controls can).
I stopped using NAC because NAC can lower DAO enzyme that your body uses to break down ingested histamine! And I know how you hate histamine WishClean!
Well, I think short term NAC can be safe but I haven't used it because of articles like that one. L-glutathione is much safer. Where did you read about NAC and DAO ?That's interesting
Scary. OK. I'm sticking with D, zinc, spiro, met and inositol for now.
My skin is not bad at the moment. Some residual lumpiness from old nodules, red scars and some blackheads. But nothing like it was pre-met.
I really think the bad breakouts were because the glucosmart lost effectiveness over time and possibly caused a rebound (the way some birth controls can).
Yeah, I thought so too....but I'm not sure how many studies they did to find this, and also, those were studies done on mice not humans, but still...I'd rather not risk it.
I'm glad your skin is doing better! I'm not sure if glucosmart can stop working, but who knows. Hopefully now you found a way to bounce back...keep us updated.
I first read N-acetyl cysteines harmful effects on this site http://histame.com/histamine-rich-foods-substances and after that I googled more info about it and it seems legit.
So, it's been months (and after years of clear skin) I am still struggling with nodular acne I've tried a bunch of things, including progesterone cream, vitamins and prescription medications. I KNOW everyone recommends I get my hormones tested but that is NOT an option for me at this time, so if that's your comment please don't comment!
My mom insisted I try B5 because of some reviews she's seen online, I've been taking 500mg once daily for a little while now, is it possible that this could be impeding any improvement? My acne was really bad when I started it, so I can't say if it made it worse, but I'm still breaking out, so it hasn't helped.
Im still on spiro, and no, it's not helping much, but it did before and I worry if I completely cut it out my acne will be ten times worse.
Should I try a bc, I've seen some good things about zovia and orthocycline? Does anyone have good or bad experiences with either of these?
hi brenmc,
I wasn't sure where to post this, but you might find it interesting in regards to this thread. I was reading some posts on acne.org of people who relapse after a treatment...some of them after accutane, others after other treatments...it seems like 2 years is the most common time span when those treatments stop working. It happened to me with vitex, and with multivitamins....about every 2 years my acne gets worse, with the exception of last year where it was worsening for longer. I used to have 1 year breaks from acne, then back to worsening (sometimes not as bad as other years). Even on birth control, I would have a year where it would get worse.
Anyway, I looked up hormonal treatments to see if the 2 year curse could happen, and I couldnt find anything definite on birth control pills (it's late at night, I'm sleepy...could be why), but I did see this study on spironolactone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3315877/
One thing is this: "The potential for spironolactone to induce estrogen-dependent malignancies still remains controversial."
Also, read this part about long term use...I believe those claims about the so-called lack of conclusive date are just there to reassure consumers and sell more drugs.
"In the rodent study, two years of ingesting spironolactone (at 25250 times the exposure dose in humans) resulted in benign adenomas of the thyroid and testes, malignant mammary tumors, and proliferative changes in the liver.31 The potential for spironolactone-related breast cancer was also raised in 1975 after a case report of breast carcinoma that occurred in five women who were concurrently using several medications, including spironolactone.32,33This led the manufacturer to recommend avoiding unnecessary long-term use in a black box warning.31"
Where am I going with this? Well, maybe after I get some sleep I can digest this information better. But, if we take into account on the rat tests, it seems that spironolactone could have the potential to cause adrenal disruptions (thyroid) and liver issues. Hence the recommendation to avoid long-term use, which even the manufacturer had to include in the warning leaflet (not sure if it's still there, this was back in the 70s). So basically I'm saying your theory could be correct...that spiro stopped working. And also, what I mentioned months ago: that it caused other issues. Perhaps you should have lowered the dose to a maintenance dose, like they suggest in this study after 12 weeks....but still, it doesn't seem like that would keep persistent acne at bay. I don't have a solution for your current skin problems, but maybe if you look into why spironolactone stops working and what problems it can cause, then you can address those problems? Worth a shot maybe.
WOW! Thank you WishClean for your comprehensive research once again! This makes so much sense. Since last summer I™ve been so unhappy because I couldn™t figure out why I™d be getting acne while on”once effective”treatments for acne. Was it the spiro? Was it the glucosmart (inositol)? Was it the vitamins I was taking? And now with this research, and with the information I™ve found on this forum regarding estrogen dominance, I™m starting to understand my situation, which can hopefully provide me with some relief.
The section of the study about breast cancer is especially worrying since the disease runs in my family. I™m also concerned about adrenals since, to my knowledge, it is a more challenging issue to diagnose and treat. I found this link on adrenal issues that is somewhat helpful for self-assessment: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/adrenalgland/conditioninfo/pages/symptoms.aspx . The issue with these self-diagnosing symptomology lists is that many of the symptoms are so common. Do you feel tired sometimes? Yes. Do you like salty food? Yes. Well, you have a disease! I don™t think I have an issue with my thyroid because aside from increased menstrual bleeding and cold feet I don™t have any of the more obvious symptoms, such as a hoarse voice, a puffy face, or weight gain (in fact I™ve lost weight over the last year). Nevertheless, here is a link on the symptomology of thyroid issues: http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/thyroid-disease.html#d .
I think it is more likely that I have estrogen dominance as a result of prolonged spiro use. But, as I said in another thread (sorry for being all over the place ladies but sometimes you have to in order to quote posters directly and stay on topic), I resisted this diagnosis for so long because I just didn™t understand how estrogen could cause acne when it had always been touted as beneficial to acne by the medical community (birth control!).
Additionally, as I said in another thread, I am eager to get off of spiro but I don™t want to be reckless about it since I had the worst experience of my life when I quit the birth control Diane 35 cold turkey years ago. The acne that had always been concentrated on my chin encompassed my entire face and it was so painful I could barely sleep or eat. I don™t know if you™ve ever had nodular acne WishClean, but it™s the WORST 
! In preparation to start DIM, last night I cut my spiro pill into several pieces and ended up taking approximately 87.5mgs (I cut the pill in half-50mgs, then a half in half-25mgs and then a half in half-12.5mg and took those three pieces to total 87.5mgs). I plan to slowly reduce my spiro dose over a period of several months in order to reduce the risk of a rebound. I did this the second time I took and subsequently quit birth control to much better results than the aforementioned cold turkey time (my acne returned but not worse than pre-treatment).
Still, I am nervous to pin my hopes on DIM. And I am nervous to take DIM while still on spiro but I need to treat my acne. I have a very bad nodule at the moment that is impeding my ability to move my mouth without feeling pain . Do you have any more advice regarding my spiro/DIM dilemma or anything else? I find your and hearts advice and encouragement priceless!
So, it's been months (and after years of clear skin) I am still struggling with nodular acne I've tried a bunch of things, including progesterone cream, vitamins and prescription medications. I KNOW everyone recommends I get my hormones tested but that is NOT an option for me at this time, so if that's your comment please don't comment!
My mom insisted I try B5 because of some reviews she's seen online, I've been taking 500mg once daily for a little while now, is it possible that this could be impeding any improvement? My acne was really bad when I started it, so I can't say if it made it worse, but I'm still breaking out, so it hasn't helped.
I™m still on spiro, and no, it's not helping much, but it did before and I worry if I completely cut it out my acne will be ten times worse.
Should I try a bc, I've seen some good things about zovia and orthocycline? Does anyone have good or bad experiences with either of these?
hi brenmc,
I wasn't sure where to post this, but you might find it interesting in regards to this thread. I was reading some posts on acne.org of people who relapse after a treatment...some of them after accutane, others after other treatments...it seems like 2 years is the most common time span when those treatments stop working. It happened to me with vitex, and with multivitamins....about every 2 years my acne gets worse, with the exception of last year where it was worsening for longer. I used to have 1 year breaks from acne, then back to worsening (sometimes not as bad as other years). Even on birth control, I would have a year where it would get worse.
Anyway, I looked up hormonal treatments to see if the 2 year curse could happen, and I couldnt find anything definite on birth control pills (it's late at night, I'm sleepy...could be why), but I did see this study on spironolactone. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3315877/
One thing is this: "The potential for spironolactone to induce estrogen-dependent malignancies still remains controversial." [i say, where there's smoke, there's fire...Although no concrete evidence about spiro's effects on estrogen, this theory shows it could very well raise the cancerous type of estrogen in the body]
Also, read this part about long term use...I believe those claims about the so-called lack of conclusive date are just there to reassure consumers and sell more drugs.
"In the rodent study, two years of ingesting spironolactone (at 25“250 times the exposure dose in humans) resulted in benign adenomas of the thyroid and testes, malignant mammary tumors, and proliferative changes in the liver.31 The potential for spironolactone-related breast cancer was also raised in 1975 after a case report of breast carcinoma that occurred in five women who were concurrently using several medications, including spironolactone.32,33This led the manufacturer to recommend avoiding unnecessary long-term use in a black box warning.31"
Where am I going with this? Well, maybe after I get some sleep I can digest this information better. But, if we take into account on the rat tests, it seems that spironolactone could have the potential to cause adrenal disruptions (thyroid) and liver issues. Hence the recommendation to avoid long-term use, which even the manufacturer had to include in the warning leaflet (not sure if it's still there, this was back in the 70s). So basically I'm saying your theory could be correct...that spiro stopped working. And also, what I mentioned months ago: that it caused other issues. Perhaps you should have lowered the dose to a maintenance dose, like they suggest in this study after 12 weeks....but still, it doesn't seem like that would keep persistent acne at bay. I don't have a solution for your current skin problems, but maybe if you look into why spironolactone stops working and what problems it can cause, then you can address those problems? Worth a shot maybe.
WOW! Thank you WishClean for your comprehensive research once again! This makes so much sense. Since last summer Ive been so unhappy because I couldnt figure out why Id be getting acne while ononce effectivetreatments for acne. Was it the spiro? Was it the glucosmart (inositol)? Was it the vitamins I was taking? And now with this research, and with the information Ive found on this forum regarding estrogen dominance, Im starting to understand my situation, which can hopefully provide me with some relief.
The section of the study about breast cancer is especially worrying since the disease runs in my family. Im also concerned about adrenals since, to my knowledge, it is a more challenging issue to diagnose and treat. I found this link on adrenal issues that is somewhat helpful for self-assessment: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/adrenalgland/conditioninfo/pages/symptoms.aspx . The issue with these self-diagnosing symptomology lists is that many of the symptoms are so common. Do you feel tired sometimes? Yes. Do you like salty food? Yes. Well, you have a disease! I dont think I have an issue with my thyroid because aside from increased menstrual bleeding and cold feet I dont have any of the more obvious symptoms, such as a hoarse voice, a puffy face, or weight gain (in fact Ive lost weight over the last year). Nevertheless, here is a link on the symptomology of thyroid issues: http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/thyroid-disease.html#d .
I think it is more likely that I have estrogen dominance as a result of prolonged spiro use. But, as I said in another thread (sorry for being all over the place ladies but sometimes you have to in order to quote posters directly and stay on topic), I resisted this diagnosis for so long because I just didnt understand how estrogen could cause acne when it had always been touted as beneficial to acne by the medical community (birth control!).
Additionally, as I said in another thread, I am eager to get off of spiro but I dont want to be reckless about it since I had the worst experience of my life when I quit the birth control Diane 35 cold turkey years ago. The acne that had always been concentrated on my chin encompassed my entire face and it was so painful I could barely sleep or eat. I dont know if youve ever had nodular acne WishClean, but its the WORST ! In preparation to start DIM, last night I cut my spiro pill into several pieces and ended up taking approximately 87.5mgs (I cut the pill in half-50mgs, then a half in half-25mgs and then a half in half-12.5mg and took those three pieces to total 87.5mgs). I plan to slowly reduce my spiro dose over a period of several months in order to reduce the risk of a rebound. I did this the second time I took and subsequently quit birth control to much better results than the aforementioned cold turkey time (my acne returned but not worse than pre-treatment).
Still, I am nervous to pin my hopes on DIM. And I am nervous to take DIM while still on spiro but I need to treat my acne. I have a very bad nodule at the moment that is impeding my ability to move my mouth without feeling pain . Do you have any more advice regarding my spiro/DIM dilemma or anything else? I find your and hearts advice and encouragement priceless!
Thank you for your research, WishClean. I suspected something like that kind of behavior from spiro because I didn't get some of the side effects until the one year mark. It makes me really glad that I quit using it.
brenmc, I think it's smart to not quit cold turkey like you said. You are doing the right thing if you want to stop taking it. I weaned down for months because I was scared too... I still did end up breaking out, but you might have a better chance actually starting another anti-androgen whilst weaning down. I used NPC while weaning which helped all the estrogen issues but it wasn't enough to stop all of the acne from returning. I would bet big money that I would have stayed clear if I had used DIM earlier.
It could be your answer, and I don't want to be a downer but it also may not be. DIM works really for some and not others but you don't know if it will unless you try. Nothing has been working for you as of yet and DIM has worked for so many, so of course I think you should give it a shot. I really want you to be clear and not have to deal with acne anymore. It's your choice, though. If after 4 months you don't see any improvement, at least you can knock it off the list. Like I said in the other thread, DIM worked slowly and subtly for me, but I saw some improvement after a couple months.
Thanks hearts. I hear what you're saying about DIM potentially not being right for me. But, as you said, it's worth a try. Maybe if I list some of my symptoms you ladies could tell me if you think they align with estrogen dominance and with the issues DIM treats?:
-multiple and irregular periods and spotting. I have had two periods in July alone and am now spotting, so potentially a third.
-decreased sex drive.
-carry some excess weight in the stomach. Though I have a normal BMI and am not overweight.
-bloating throughout the day
-anxiety. This is directly associated with my acne though.
-acne.
-mild hirsuitism. I notice a few extra blonde and soft-textured (not coarse) hairs around my chin when my acne is at its worst.
Thanks again for the support hearts and WishClean, I appreciate it so much! <3
B
WOW! Thank you WishClean for your comprehensive research once again! This makes so much sense. Since last summer Ive been so unhappy because I couldnt figure out why Id be getting acne while ononce effectivetreatments for acne. Was it the spiro? Was it the glucosmart (inositol)? Was it the vitamins I was taking? And now with this research, and with the information Ive found on this forum regarding estrogen dominance, Im starting to understand my situation, which can hopefully provide me with some relief.
The section of the study about breast cancer is especially worrying since the disease runs in my family. Im also concerned about adrenals since, to my knowledge, it is a more challenging issue to diagnose and treat. I found this link on adrenal issues that is somewhat helpful for self-assessment: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/adrenalgland/conditioninfo/pages/symptoms.aspx . The issue with these self-diagnosing symptomology lists is that many of the symptoms are so common. Do you feel tired sometimes? Yes. Do you like salty food? Yes. Well, you have a disease! I dont think I have an issue with my thyroid because aside from increased menstrual bleeding and cold feet I dont have any of the more obvious symptoms, such as a hoarse voice, a puffy face, or weight gain (in fact Ive lost weight over the last year). Nevertheless, here is a link on the symptomology of thyroid issues: http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/thyroid-disease.html#d .
I think it is more likely that I have estrogen dominance as a result of prolonged spiro use. But, as I said in another thread (sorry for being all over the place ladies but sometimes you have to in order to quote posters directly and stay on topic), I resisted this diagnosis for so long because I just didnt understand how estrogen could cause acne when it had always been touted as beneficial to acne by the medical community (birth control!).
Additionally, as I said in another thread, I am eager to get off of spiro but I dont want to be reckless about it since I had the worst experience of my life when I quit the birth control Diane 35 cold turkey years ago. The acne that had always been concentrated on my chin encompassed my entire face and it was so painful I could barely sleep or eat. I dont know if youve ever had nodular acne WishClean, but its the WORST
! In preparation to start DIM, last night I cut my spiro pill into several pieces and ended up taking approximately 87.5mgs (I cut the pill in half-50mgs, then a half in half-25mgs and then a half in half-12.5mg and took those three pieces to total 87.5mgs). I plan to slowly reduce my spiro dose over a period of several months in order to reduce the risk of a rebound. I did this the second time I took and subsequently quit birth control to much better results than the aforementioned cold turkey time (my acne returned but not worse than pre-treatment).
Still, I am nervous to pin my hopes on DIM. And I am nervous to take DIM while still on spiro but I need to treat my acne. I have a very bad nodule at the moment that is impeding my ability to move my mouth without feeling pain
Thank you for your research, WishClean. I suspected something like that kind of behavior from spiro because I didn't get some of the side effects until the one year mark. It makes me really glad that I quit using it.
brenmc, I think it's smart to not quit cold turkey like you said. You are doing the right thing if you want to stop taking it. I weaned down for months because I was scared too... I still did end up breaking out, but you might have a better chance actually starting another anti-androgen whilst weaning down. I used NPC while weaning which helped all the estrogen issues but it wasn't enough to stop all of the acne from returning. I would bet big money that I would have stayed clear if I had used DIM earlier.
It could be your answer, and I don't want to be a downer but it also may not be. DIM works really for some and not others but you don't know if it will unless you try. Nothing has been working for you as of yet and DIM has worked for so many, so of course I think you should give it a shot. I really want you to be clear and not have to deal with acne anymore. It's your choice, though. If after 4 months you don't see any improvement, at least you can knock it off the list. Like I said in the other thread, DIM worked slowly and subtly for me, but I saw some improvement after a couple months.
PS
Also, regarding the study, the mean length of spiro use is significantly less than the eight year number thrown out there, plus the sample size is quite small. Something worth further investigation.
How long did it take you to see improvement with DIM?
Yes, this study is by no means conclusive, as I mentioned above, but still....there are some concerning possibilities here. In my opinion, I think spiro is lowering your androgens BUT indirectly raising your estrogens by increasing the estrogen: androgen ratio, hence causing estrogen dominance. Excess estrogen (the bad form, I forget whether it's E1 or E2...the one drs don't usually test for separately!) then converts back into testosterone and causes more severe androgen sensitivity. I think the root of the issue would be to lower estrogen so that the androgen: estrogen ratio is more balanced in your body. Thus, instead of targeting androgens, target estrogen instead. Anyway,this is just a theory, you won't know unless you try lowering the bad estrogens.
But as you and hearts know, I was very hesitant to add DIM to my regimen because of the conflicting information I read online. I just took a risk and it paid off. I'm not 100% clear, but my acne is at a more manageable stage where I can leave my house without crying every time I see my face in the mirror.
I also think that, in my case, part of my acne is fungal/ allergic (little bumps under the skin), especially since I also got a yeast infection a few weeks ago. But that's another story.
And btw, I did have some nodules...I've had all kinds of acne except conglobata...I'm grateful I haven't had that and feel sorry for those who do.
WOW! Thank you WishClean for your comprehensive research once again! This makes so much sense. Since last summer I™ve been so unhappy because I couldn™t figure out why I™d be getting acne while on”once effective”treatments for acne. Was it the spiro? Was it the glucosmart (inositol)? Was it the vitamins I was taking? And now with this research, and with the information I™ve found on this forum regarding estrogen dominance, I™m starting to understand my situation, which can hopefully provide me with some relief.
The section of the study about breast cancer is especially worrying since the disease runs in my family. I™m also concerned about adrenals since, to my knowledge, it is a more challenging issue to diagnose and treat. I found this link on adrenal issues that is somewhat helpful for self-assessment: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/adrenalgland/conditioninfo/pages/symptoms.aspx . The issue with these self-diagnosing symptomology lists is that many of the symptoms are so common. Do you feel tired sometimes? Yes. Do you like salty food? Yes. Well, you have a disease! I don™t think I have an issue with my thyroid because aside from increased menstrual bleeding and cold feet I don™t have any of the more obvious symptoms, such as a hoarse voice, a puffy face, or weight gain (in fact I™ve lost weight over the last year). Nevertheless, here is a link on the symptomology of thyroid issues: http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/thyroid-disease.html#d .
I think it is more likely that I have estrogen dominance as a result of prolonged spiro use. But, as I said in another thread (sorry for being all over the place ladies but sometimes you have to in order to quote posters directly and stay on topic), I resisted this diagnosis for so long because I just didn™t understand how estrogen could cause acne when it had always been touted as beneficial to acne by the medical community (birth control!).
Additionally, as I said in another thread, I am eager to get off of spiro but I don™t want to be reckless about it since I had the worst experience of my life when I quit the birth control Diane 35 cold turkey years ago. The acne that had always been concentrated on my chin encompassed my entire face and it was so painful I could barely sleep or eat. I don™t know if you™ve ever had nodular acne WishClean, but it™s the WORST ! In preparation to start DIM, last night I cut my spiro pill into several pieces and ended up taking approximately 87.5mgs (I cut the pill in half-50mgs, then a half in half-25mgs and then a half in half-12.5mg and took those three pieces to total 87.5mgs). I plan to slowly reduce my spiro dose over a period of several months in order to reduce the risk of a rebound. I did this the second time I took and subsequently quit birth control to much better results than the aforementioned cold turkey time (my acne returned but not worse than pre-treatment).
Still, I am nervous to pin my hopes on DIM. And I am nervous to take DIM while still on spiro but I need to treat my acne. I have a very bad nodule at the moment that is impeding my ability to move my mouth without feeling pain . Do you have any more advice regarding my spiro/DIM dilemma or anything else? I find your and hearts advice and encouragement priceless!
Thank you for your research, WishClean. I suspected something like that kind of behavior from spiro because I didn't get some of the side effects until the one year mark. It makes me really glad that I quit using it.
brenmc, I think it's smart to not quit cold turkey like you said. You are doing the right thing if you want to stop taking it. I weaned down for months because I was scared too... I still did end up breaking out, but you might have a better chance actually starting another anti-androgen whilst weaning down. I used NPC while weaning which helped all the estrogen issues but it wasn't enough to stop all of the acne from returning. I would bet big money that I would have stayed clear if I had used DIM earlier.
It could be your answer, and I don't want to be a downer but it also may not be. DIM works really for some and not others but you don't know if it will unless you try. Nothing has been working for you as of yet and DIM has worked for so many, so of course I think you should give it a shot. I really want you to be clear and not have to deal with acne anymore. It's your choice, though. If after 4 months you don't see any improvement, at least you can knock it off the list. Like I said in the other thread, DIM worked slowly and subtly for me, but I saw some improvement after a couple months.
^^ Well said, hearts 🙂
Thanks hearts. I hear what you're saying about DIM potentially not being right for me. But, as you said, it's worth a try. Maybe if I list some of my symptoms you ladies could tell me if you think they align with estrogen dominance and with the issues DIM treats?:
-multiple and irregular periods and spotting. I have had two periods in July alone and am now spotting, so potentially a third.
-decreased sex drive.
-carry some excess weight in the stomach. Though I have a normal BMI and am not overweight.
-bloating throughout the day
-anxiety. This is directly associated with my acne though.
-acne.
-mild hirsuitism. I notice a few extra blonde and soft-textured (not coarse) hairs around my chin when my acne is at its worst.
Thanks again for the support hearts and WishClean, I appreciate it so much!
B
Did spiro cause irregular periods and spotting, or was your cycle irregular before spiro?
I have all other symptoms you listed (but my cycle is regular, even with PCOS...I put it down to low GI diet/ insulin control/ low histamine diet) , but the strange thing is that my sex drive was too high, not low. Adding DIM actually normalized my sex drive, but when I tried to back down to 50mg (from 200, then 150, then 100), my sex drive got higher again and I broke out on one side of my face. So now I'm back up to 100mg to see if that helps.
btw, I was also curious about vitex not working well after some time has gone by, and why my last time on it my skin and stomach didn't like it. The closest explanation I could find is this one, which also explains why the naturopath told me not to take it longer than 6 months at a time.
So basically, anything that stimulates the adrenals to produce MORE (and/or LESS?) of a hormone, can stimulate them to produce more of other hormones as well...???
"The herb Vitex stimulates progesterone production in the body and therefore helps to balance the hormones. Experience from many of my clients has shown that taking the herbal tinctures Fem-Mate (contains Vitex) and Chinese Bitters is beneficial to PMS sufferers. However, if estrogen is high (and not just high in relation to progesterone but high in absolute terms), then Fem-Mate should be taken, only for a few weeks, in order to balance the hormones. Please note that if you take it for longer than a few weeks, it could actually raise estrogen levels, because Vitex stimulates progesterone production by stimulating the adrenals, which also produce estrogen."
Thanks for getting back to me WishClean! Regarding the study, I just meant that clearly the claims that spiro is safe long-term are inflated, based on the lack of evidence. So I completely agree with you. Truly, it was your information synthesises of the study that reveals that spiro can lead to estrogen dominance (and other issues). My doctor has never even mentioned the phrase estrogen dominance to me and I had never heard of it until you and hearts explained it to me. So thank you!
Thanks for reassuring me WishClean, sharing your own experience of being anxious to start DIM makes me feel better. As I said in my previous post, although I do have a lot of the symptoms of estrogen dominance, you just never know how youll react to hormonal treatments. One of my concerns with DIM is the posts out there claiming it boosts free testosterone. Is this just if you take it in high doses?
Sorry to hear you get nodules sometimes too, they suck dont they!? I saw your, fairly, recent pictures on your thread and your skin looks beautiful. I hope DIM gives me results like that.
PS
Also, regarding the study, the mean length of spiro use is significantly less than the eight year number thrown out there, plus the sample size is quite small. Something worth further investigation.
How long did it take you to see improvement with DIM?
Yes, this study is by no means conclusive, as I mentioned above, but still....there are some concerning possibilities here. In my opinion, I think spiro is lowering your androgens BUT indirectly raising your estrogens by increasing the estrogen: androgen ratio, hence causing estrogen dominance. Excess estrogen (the bad form, I forget whether it's E1 or E2...the one drs don't usually test for separately!) then converts back into testosterone and causes more severe androgen sensitivity. I think the root of the issue would be to lower estrogen so that the androgen: estrogen ratio is more balanced in your body. Thus, instead of targeting androgens, target estrogen instead. Anyway,this is just a theory, you won't know unless you try lowering the bad estrogens.
But as you and hearts know, I was very hesitant to add DIM to my regimen because of the conflicting information I read online. I just took a risk and it paid off. I'm not 100% clear, but my acne is at a more manageable stage where I can leave my house without crying every time I see my face in the mirror.
I also think that, in my case, part of my acne is fungal/ allergic (little bumps under the skin), especially since I also got a yeast infection a few weeks ago. But that's another story.
And btw, I did have some nodules...I've had all kinds of acne except conglobata...I'm grateful I haven't had that and feel sorry for those who do.
>
WOW! Thank you WishClean for your comprehensive research once again! This makes so much sense. Since last summer Ive been so unhappy because I couldnt figure out why Id be getting acne while ononce effectivetreatments for acne. Was it the spiro? Was it the glucosmart (inositol)? Was it the vitamins I was taking? And now with this research, and with the information Ive found on this forum regarding estrogen dominance, Im starting to understand my situation, which can hopefully provide me with some relief.
The section of the study about breast cancer is especially worrying since the disease runs in my family. Im also concerned about adrenals since, to my knowledge, it is a more challenging issue to diagnose and treat. I found this link on adrenal issues that is somewhat helpful for self-assessment: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/adrenalgland/conditioninfo/pages/symptoms.aspx . The issue with these self-diagnosing symptomology lists is that many of the symptoms are so common. Do you feel tired sometimes? Yes. Do you like salty food? Yes. Well, you have a disease! I dont think I have an issue with my thyroid because aside from increased menstrual bleeding and cold feet I dont have any of the more obvious symptoms, such as a hoarse voice, a puffy face, or weight gain (in fact Ive lost weight over the last year). Nevertheless, here is a link on the symptomology of thyroid issues: http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/thyroid-disease.html#d .
I think it is more likely that I have estrogen dominance as a result of prolonged spiro use. But, as I said in another thread (sorry for being all over the place ladies but sometimes you have to in order to quote posters directly and stay on topic), I resisted this diagnosis for so long because I just didnt understand how estrogen could cause acne when it had always been touted as beneficial to acne by the medical community (birth control!).
Additionally, as I said in another thread, I am eager to get off of spiro but I dont want to be reckless about it since I had the worst experience of my life when I quit the birth control Diane 35 cold turkey years ago. The acne that had always been concentrated on my chin encompassed my entire face and it was so painful I could barely sleep or eat. I dont know if youve ever had nodular acne WishClean, but its the WORST ! In preparation to start DIM, last night I cut my spiro pill into several pieces and ended up taking approximately 87.5mgs (I cut the pill in half-50mgs, then a half in half-25mgs and then a half in half-12.5mg and took those three pieces to total 87.5mgs). I plan to slowly reduce my spiro dose over a period of several months in order to reduce the risk of a rebound. I did this the second time I took and subsequently quit birth control to much better results than the aforementioned cold turkey time (my acne returned but not worse than pre-treatment).
Still, I am nervous to pin my hopes on DIM. And I am nervous to take DIM while still on spiro but I need to treat my acne. I have a very bad nodule at the moment that is impeding my ability to move my mouth without feeling pain . Do you have any more advice regarding my spiro/DIM dilemma or anything else? I find your and hearts advice and encouragement priceless!
Thank you for your research, WishClean. I suspected something like that kind of behavior from spiro because I didn't get some of the side effects until the one year mark. It makes me really glad that I quit using it.
brenmc, I think it's smart to not quit cold turkey like you said. You are doing the right thing if you want to stop taking it. I weaned down for months because I was scared too... I still did end up breaking out, but you might have a better chance actually starting another anti-androgen whilst weaning down. I used NPC while weaning which helped all the estrogen issues but it wasn't enough to stop all of the acne from returning. I would bet big money that I would have stayed clear if I had used DIM earlier.
It could be your answer, and I don't want to be a downer but it also may not be. DIM works really for some and not others but you don't know if it will unless you try. Nothing has been working for you as of yet and DIM has worked for so many, so of course I think you should give it a shot. I really want you to be clear and not have to deal with acne anymore. It's your choice, though. If after 4 months you don't see any improvement, at least you can knock it off the list. Like I said in the other thread, DIM worked slowly and subtly for me, but I saw some improvement after a couple months.
Yes, of course. Other studies have been funded by companies that manufacture spiro, so of course they try to prove that it's safe long term. First of all, it is a blood pressure medication, not an acne drug. Just like birth control is birth control, not an acne drug. So any time we take something for a completely different purpose than the one designed, there are bound to be side effects eventually.
My doctor told me about estrogen dominance and in fact thought my suspicions were right, but she couldn't explain why either. I had to figure it out myself.
I truly hope DIM works for you. It's really a gamble, as with anything else. But at this point you have nothing to lose, right?
I was worried about the free testosterone as well. In fact, it was the main reason I was against it. But wikipedia lists DIM as the most potent herbal anti-androgen, and the women on here who take it see a huge improvement. For me, it started working within the first week, but by that point my acne was more manageable thanks to inositol. I think start slow and see how it goes.
I also tried calcium d-glucarate before DIM, thinking it would be milder, but for me it didn't work.
Yes, nodules really suck....but honestly, I had so many different types of acne on my face at that point, that I was just thinking of myself as an acne collector, lol.
Thanks for getting back to me WishClean! Regarding the study, I just meant that clearly the claims that spiro is safe long-term are inflated, based on the lack of evidence. So I completely agree with you. Truly, it was your information synthesises of the study that reveals that spiro can lead to estrogen dominance (and other issues). My doctor has never even mentioned the phrase estrogen dominance to me and I had never heard of it until you and hearts explained it to me. So thank you!
Thanks for reassuring me WishClean, sharing your own experience of being anxious to start DIM makes me feel better. As I said in my previous post, although I do have a lot of the symptoms of estrogen dominance, you just never know how youll react to hormonal treatments. One of my concerns with DIM is the posts out there claiming it boosts free testosterone. Is this just if you take it in high doses?
Sorry to hear you get nodules sometimes too, they suck dont they!? I saw the yourfairlyrecently pictures on your thread and your skin looks beautiful. I hope DIM gives me results like that.
Good point about funding biases. Im going to be taking the Natures Way Dim Plus: http://www.vitasave.ca/dim-plus.html . Do you think I should start with one or two pills per day (the recommended dose is 2-4)? Thats amazing you had results so quickly, my skin is not under control, so it might have an uphill battle. And FYI, I had so many typos at the end of my last post but couldnt correct them due to the image extension error you mentioned in the announcements section.
Yes, of course. Other studies have been funded by companies that manufacture spiro, so of course they try to prove that it's safe long term. First of all, it is a blood pressure medication, not an acne drug. Just like birth control is birth control, not an acne drug. So any time we take something for a completely different purpose than the one designed, there are bound to be side effects eventually.
My doctor told me about estrogen dominance and in fact thought my suspicions were right, but she couldn't explain why either. I had to figure it out myself.
I truly hope DIM works for you. It's really a gamble, as with anything else. But at this point you have nothing to lose, right?
I was worried about the free testosterone as well. In fact, it was the main reason I was against it. But wikipedia lists DIM as the most potent herbal anti-androgen, and the women on here who take it see a huge improvement. For me, it started working within the first week, but by that point my acne was more manageable thanks to inositol. I think start slow and see how it goes.
I also tried calcium d-glucarate before DIM, thinking it would be milder, but for me it didn't work.
Yes, nodules really suck....but honestly, I had so many different types of acne on my face at that point, that I was just thinking of myself as an acne collector, lol.
Thanks for getting back to me WishClean! Regarding the study, I just meant that clearly the claims that spiro is safe long-term are inflated, based on the lack of evidence. So I completely agree with you. Truly, it was your information synthesises of the study that reveals that spiro can lead to estrogen dominance (and other issues). My doctor has never even mentioned the phrase estrogen dominance to me and I had never heard of it until you and hearts explained it to me. So thank you!
Thanks for reassuring me WishClean, sharing your own experience of being anxious to start DIM makes me feel better. As I said in my previous post, although I do have a lot of the symptoms of estrogen dominance, you just never know how youll react to hormonal treatments. One of my concerns with DIM is the posts out there claiming it boosts free testosterone. Is this just if you take it in high doses?
Sorry to hear you get nodules sometimes too, they suck dont they!? I saw the yourfairlyrecently pictures on your thread and your skin looks beautiful. I hope DIM gives me results like that.
Start with one, definitely. That way, even if you have a breakout, it will be manageable. I started with 50mg only until I was sure it was working.
I'm a bit wary of the fact that you are taking a combination of things, not just DIM, but it might work out for the best. I'm usually more sensitive to supplements than most people, that's why I take just DIM. I don't know anyone else who is taking olympian labs DIM, it's not one of the popular brands on this site, unlike the one you are taking.
For the image extension error, just remove all smileys/ images from the post (including the posts you are quoting) and you can edit your post.
Thanks WishClean,
I am nervous about taking everything I am too, but I'm more nervous about quitting the pharmaceuticals cold turkey. I've started the process of weaning off of spiro. Do you think that I should simultaneously start weaning off of metformin? Met basically addresses my insulin issue while also raising my progesterone. Could high progesterone negatively interact with the DIM? It's obviously safe to continue using the inositol with DIM, as you do, right?
I'm sensitive to supplements too, as I've mentioned, which is another reason why I'm nervous about DIM :-S.
Thanks for explaining the error message to me. I hope you were able to diasipher my complement through my mishmash grammar. Lol.
Thanks WishClean,
I am nervous about taking everything I am too, but I'm more nervous about quitting the pharmaceuticals cold turkey. I've started the process of weaning off of spiro. Do you think that I should simultaneously start weaning off of metformin? Met basically addresses my insulin issue while also raising my progesterone. Could high progesterone negatively interact with the DIM? It's obviously safe to continue using the inositol with DIM, as you do, right?
I'm sensitive to supplements too, as I've mentioned, which is another reason why I'm nervous about DIM :-S.
Thanks for explaining the error message to me. I hope you were able to diasipher my complement through my mishmash grammar. Lol.
I would advise staying on Metformin for now, at your regular dose. Weaning off or stopping too many things at once is just like starting too many things at once... you won't be able to tell what is causing a problem if there is one. Progesterone will not negatively interact with DIM. If you want an anecdote, read the review on another DIM supplement titled "Continued success with DIM." She apparently takes both DIM and Metformin. Also, it looks like she tried spiro in the past.
About your list of symptoms... most of those really do sound like excess estrogen symptoms to me. I had all of them but acne while on spiro.
I think youre right hearts, its best not to change too much at once. Ive just been concerned about medication interactions; this especially true since I dont have a solid understanding of the details of hormone receptor sites. Ive read about how certain hormones beat out' other hormones to receptor sites, which then influences your hormonal equilibrium and results in free or unattached hormones (such as free testosterone). So, I just wasnt sure if, say, the progesterone from metformin might beat out the good estrogen that is metabolized by the DIM and throw off the potential benefits that may be obtained by DIM. I dont know if this makes any sense or Im talking nonsense, like I said I dont have a good understanding of the science behind hormonal receptor sites?
Thank you so much for this link! It is very encouraging and also many parts of it ring especially true for me. For instance, I also have very thick and long hair, so the shedding hadnt really bothered me until recently. Its also such a relief to know that its safe to take DIM with metformin. Youre such a wizard with research hearts! <3
And thanks for confirming that it seems like I have estrogen dominance, its very tricky with those lists because there are always a lot of broadly applicable symptoms.
Thanks WishClean,
I am nervous about taking everything I am too, but I'm more nervous about quitting the pharmaceuticals cold turkey. I've started the process of weaning off of spiro. Do you think that I should simultaneously start weaning off of metformin? Met basically addresses my insulin issue while also raising my progesterone. Could high progesterone negatively interact with the DIM? It's obviously safe to continue using the inositol with DIM, as you do, right?
I'm sensitive to supplements too, as I've mentioned, which is another reason why I'm nervous about DIM :-S.
Thanks for explaining the error message to me. I hope you were able to diasipher my complement through my mishmash grammar. Lol.
I would advise staying on Metformin for now, at your regular dose. Weaning off or stopping too many things at once is just like starting too many things at once... you won't be able to tell what is causing a problem if there is one. Progesterone will not negatively interact with DIM. If you want an anecdote, read the review on another DIM supplement titled "Continued success with DIM." She apparently takes both DIM and Metformin. Also, it looks like she tried spiro in the past.
About your list of symptoms... most of those really do sound like excess estrogen symptoms to me. I had all of them but acne while on spiro.
I think you™re right hearts, it™s best not to change too much at once. I™ve just been concerned about medication interactions; this especially true since I don™t have a solid understanding of the details of hormone receptor sites. I™ve read about how certain hormones ˜beat out' other hormones to receptor sites, which then influences your hormonal equilibrium and results in free or unattached hormones (such as ˜free testosterone™). So, I just wasn™t sure if, say, the progesterone from metformin might ˜beat out™ the good estrogen that is metabolized by the DIM and throw off the potential benefits that may be obtained by DIM. I don™t know if this makes any sense or I™m talking nonsense, like I said I don™t have a good understanding of the science behind hormonal receptor sites?
Thank you so much for this link! It is very encouraging and also many parts of it ring especially true for me. For instance, I also have very thick and long hair, so the shedding hadn™t really bothered me until recently. It™s also such a relief to know that it™s safe to take DIM with metformin. You™re such a wizard with research hearts!
And thanks for confirming that it seems like I have estrogen dominance, it™s very tricky with those lists because there are always a lot of broadly applicable symptoms.
I'm glad that the review was helpful! (: Another thing that's weird is she has a review on inositol saying that she gained something like 15lbs in 3 months on it. Crazy stuff, haha!
Sorry WishClean, I didnt see this question about my period. My period pre-spiro was heavy. When spiro was successful, the heaviness and length reduced. Over the last year it has become highly irregular, heavy and Ive had multiple periods in one month several times.
Thats interesting about how DIM normalized your sex drive. Mine does vary; its lower than pre-spiro though, thats for sure.
PS
Also, regarding the study, the mean length of spiro use is significantly less than the eight year number thrown out there, plus the sample size is quite small. Something worth further investigation.
How long did it take you to see improvement with DIM?
Yes, this study is by no means conclusive, as I mentioned above, but still....there are some concerning possibilities here. In my opinion, I think spiro is lowering your androgens BUT indirectly raising your estrogens by increasing the estrogen: androgen ratio, hence causing estrogen dominance. Excess estrogen (the bad form, I forget whether it's E1 or E2...the one drs don't usually test for separately!) then converts back into testosterone and causes more severe androgen sensitivity. I think the root of the issue would be to lower estrogen so that the androgen: estrogen ratio is more balanced in your body. Thus, instead of targeting androgens, target estrogen instead. Anyway,this is just a theory, you won't know unless you try lowering the bad estrogens.
But as you and hearts know, I was very hesitant to add DIM to my regimen because of the conflicting information I read online. I just took a risk and it paid off. I'm not 100% clear, but my acne is at a more manageable stage where I can leave my house without crying every time I see my face in the mirror.
I also think that, in my case, part of my acne is fungal/ allergic (little bumps under the skin), especially since I also got a yeast infection a few weeks ago. But that's another story.
And btw, I did have some nodules...I've had all kinds of acne except conglobata...I'm grateful I haven't had that and feel sorry for those who do.
>
WOW! Thank you WishClean for your comprehensive research once again! This makes so much sense. Since last summer Ive been so unhappy because I couldnt figure out why Id be getting acne while ononce effectivetreatments for acne. Was it the spiro? Was it the glucosmart (inositol)? Was it the vitamins I was taking? And now with this research, and with the information Ive found on this forum regarding estrogen dominance, Im starting to understand my situation, which can hopefully provide me with some relief.
The section of the study about breast cancer is especially worrying since the disease runs in my family. Im also concerned about adrenals since, to my knowledge, it is a more challenging issue to diagnose and treat. I found this link on adrenal issues that is somewhat helpful for self-assessment: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/adrenalgland/conditioninfo/pages/symptoms.aspx . The issue with these self-diagnosing symptomology lists is that many of the symptoms are so common. Do you feel tired sometimes? Yes. Do you like salty food? Yes. Well, you have a disease! I dont think I have an issue with my thyroid because aside from increased menstrual bleeding and cold feet I dont have any of the more obvious symptoms, such as a hoarse voice, a puffy face, or weight gain (in fact Ive lost weight over the last year). Nevertheless, here is a link on the symptomology of thyroid issues: http://womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/thyroid-disease.html#d .
I think it is more likely that I have estrogen dominance as a result of prolonged spiro use. But, as I said in another thread (sorry for being all over the place ladies but sometimes you have to in order to quote posters directly and stay on topic), I resisted this diagnosis for so long because I just didnt understand how estrogen could cause acne when it had always been touted as beneficial to acne by the medical community (birth control!).
Additionally, as I said in another thread, I am eager to get off of spiro but I dont want to be reckless about it since I had the worst experience of my life when I quit the birth control Diane 35 cold turkey years ago. The acne that had always been concentrated on my chin encompassed my entire face and it was so painful I could barely sleep or eat. I dont know if youve ever had nodular acne WishClean, but its the WORST ! In preparation to start DIM, last night I cut my spiro pill into several pieces and ended up taking approximately 87.5mgs (I cut the pill in half-50mgs, then a half in half-25mgs and then a half in half-12.5mg and took those three pieces to total 87.5mgs). I plan to slowly reduce my spiro dose over a period of several months in order to reduce the risk of a rebound. I did this the second time I took and subsequently quit birth control to much better results than the aforementioned cold turkey time (my acne returned but not worse than pre-treatment).
Still, I am nervous to pin my hopes on DIM. And I am nervous to take DIM while still on spiro but I need to treat my acne. I have a very bad nodule at the moment that is impeding my ability to move my mouth without feeling pain . Do you have any more advice regarding my spiro/DIM dilemma or anything else? I find your and hearts advice and encouragement priceless!
Thank you for your research, WishClean. I suspected something like that kind of behavior from spiro because I didn't get some of the side effects until the one year mark. It makes me really glad that I quit using it.
brenmc, I think it's smart to not quit cold turkey like you said. You are doing the right thing if you want to stop taking it. I weaned down for months because I was scared too... I still did end up breaking out, but you might have a better chance actually starting another anti-androgen whilst weaning down. I used NPC while weaning which helped all the estrogen issues but it wasn't enough to stop all of the acne from returning. I would bet big money that I would have stayed clear if I had used DIM earlier.
It could be your answer, and I don't want to be a downer but it also may not be. DIM works really for some and not others but you don't know if it will unless you try. Nothing has been working for you as of yet and DIM has worked for so many, so of course I think you should give it a shot. I really want you to be clear and not have to deal with acne anymore. It's your choice, though. If after 4 months you don't see any improvement, at least you can knock it off the list. Like I said in the other thread, DIM worked slowly and subtly for me, but I saw some improvement after a couple months.
Hey hearts and WishClean,
So, Im three days in to taking Natures Way DIM Plus. The morning after my first dose I got another nodule; the day after that I got a larger pimple (luckily not nodular but still sore). Im guessing this is too early to be related to the DIM, at least the nodule might be, after only one pill of DIM? Of the reviews Ive read on amazon and a few other places, I havent seen an initial breakout mentioned, rather, things either start to clear up or things get worse and the person quits taking DIM. What do you think, did either of you ladies continue to breakout in the first week of taking DIM?
hearts, do you remember the post I made about seeing a supplement with a dose of 12.5mg of DIM? It was the Natures Way brand after all: http://www.vitasave.ca/dim-plus-6570.html . Is the American formula different?
How are you feeling WishClean, I know you mentioned that you were having a hard time with your boyfriend leaving and breaking out?
Im still feeling anxious about DIM, but also hopeful. I guess Im just nervous that it wont work and I really need a solution to this in order to get some physical and emotional relief! Wish me luck, Ill keep updating my progress.
Hey hearts and WishClean,
So, Im three days in to taking Natures Way DIM Plus. The morning after my first dose I got another nodule; the day after that I got a larger pimple (luckily not nodular but still sore). Im guessing this is too early to be related to the DIM, at least the nodule might be, after only one pill of DIM? Of the reviews Ive read on amazon and a few other places, I havent seen an initial breakout mentioned, rather, things either start to clear up or things get worse and the person quits taking DIM. What do you think, did either of you ladies continue to breakout in the first week of taking DIM?
hearts, do you remember the post I made about seeing a supplement with a dose of 12.5mg of DIM? It was the Natures Way brand after all: http://www.vitasave.ca/dim-plus-6570.html . Is the American formula different?
How are you feeling WishClean, I know you mentioned that you were having a hard time with your boyfriend leaving and breaking out?
Im still feeling anxious about DIM, but also hopeful. I guess Im just nervous that it wont work and I really need a solution to this in order to get some physical and emotional relief! Wish me luck, Ill keep updating my progress.
Good luck! I'm really curious to see the results you will have with DIM. I'm considering it myself, though I might try Spiro first. Keep us updated!