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Jlcampi, I am getting very frustrated with this repeated question! If you persist, I'd appreciate it if you would no longer reply to my posts. For the last and final time: I live on an island on the northern coast of BC, Canada. I do not have access to an endocrinologist. My dermatologist is an asshole who gave me benzoyl peroxide to treat severe nodular acne, to no avail. My family doctor is almost 70 years old and thinks antibiotics were the solution to my acne, for 10 years he put me on every single one, to no lasting solution. I was lucky to get spiro from him; my mom and I researched it and went in together to beg for it. This forum helps me flesh out ideas as I work toward a solution for myself, as that is currently my only option.
Hey WishClean,
I took the self-test quiz and it of course put me in several categories, some conflicting, as some of the same symptoms were in several categories. However, I think androgens, insulin and progesterone are my issues. From what I've read spiro can increase progesterone levels plus the elevated progesterone around my period (which coincides with the most severe breakouts) suggests that progesterone could be an issue for me.
Currently I've pulled back on a lot of the vitamins and medications I was taking in order to judge what's really helping. I'm taking spiro, D and zinc. Thinking of starting metformin....Just to kick start things and then if things get under control, wean onto inositol as I did before.
Hmm I don't know. A lot of women clear on estrogen modulators (either more or less estrogen) and progesterone...most birth control doesn't contain androgen/ DHT blockers, just synthetic estrogen and progestin, and many women clear on that combination. Of course, others gets worse. It's a gamble for you at this point. Glucosmart lowers androgens more than metformin from what I understand. Maybe you have low testosterone, or maybe you are estrogen dominant?
I'm a vegetarian for environmental reasons, not solely health. I eat complex carbs that can be combined to make complete proteins, like brown rice, quinoa, beans, etcetera..
I understand that food plays a part in acne, however, I ate the same and had clear skin for three years as I am now with skin that has acne.
Hi, I've read on the internet that soj can also trigger acne. I know there are a lot of contradicting studies but maybe you can give it a try?
I'm a vegetarian for environmental reasons, not solely health. I eat complex carbs that can be combined to make complete proteins, like brown rice, quinoa, beans, etcetera..
I understand that food plays a part in acne, however, I ate the same and had clear skin for three years as I am now with skin that has acne.
Hi, I've read on the internet that soj can also trigger acne. I know there are a lot of contradicting studies but maybe you can give it a try?
I would say wean off everything except the spiro, don't even take zinc or vitamin D right now. Then add 1 supplement at a time. I would tell you to get off spiro too, but that might make things worse so I think keep taking your usual dose and stay on just spiro for a few weeks, then add something for insulin, and then move on to vitamins and minerals. I'm saying this because if you are not taking the correct form of zinc and vitamin D, you might break out from those too.
One other thing: if you have tried many antibiotics over the years, your gut flora must have suffered. I suggest you either add digestive enzymes and/or acidophilus probiotics to help rebalance your digestive tract (maybe add them in a few weeks). If your stomach and liver are weak, you might be overloading them with medication and supplements....if your body is unable to fully break down everything you are taking, then you are adding more fuel to the fire.
EDIT: sorry, I was trying to post somewhere else after I posted here but my 2 posts got merged somehow. I deleted the other one.
i agree with getting off everything except for the spiro but if the nodular acne is persisting what about trying keflex? i know you said you were on a lot of other antibiotics but figured i would ask you about this one. i had some bad cystic acne and nodules last year that no other antibiotic that i tried would even touch until i went on keflex. i took 500mg twice a day and by day 5 everything was gone and i have been on many many other antibiotics in the past too. i stayed on that for a long time until i thought the spiro kicked in and am now finally getting off of it. good luck to you!
Jlcampi, I am getting very frustrated with this repeated question! If you persist, I'd appreciate it if you would no longer reply to my posts. For the last and final time: I live on an island on the northern coast of BC, Canada. I do not have access to an endocrinologist. My dermatologist is an asshole who gave me benzoyl peroxide to treat severe nodular acne, to no avail. My family doctor is almost 70 years old and thinks antibiotics were the solution to my acne, for 10 years he put me on every single one, to no lasting solution. I was lucky to get spiro from him; my mom and I researched it and went in together to beg for it. This forum helps me flesh out ideas as I work toward a solution for myself, as that is currently my only option. Hey WishClean,
I took the self-test quiz and it of course put me in several categories, some conflicting, as some of the same symptoms were in several categories. However, I think androgens, insulin and progesterone are my issues. From what I've read spiro can increase progesterone levels plus the elevated progesterone around my period (which coincides with the most severe breakouts) suggests that progesterone could be an issue for me.
Currently I've pulled back on a lot of the vitamins and medications I was taking in order to judge what's really helping. I'm taking spiro, D and zinc. Thinking of starting metformin....Just to kick start things and then if things get under control, wean onto inositol as I did before.
Hmm I don't know. A lot of women clear on estrogen modulators (either more or less estrogen) and progesterone...most birth control doesn't contain androgen/ DHT blockers, just synthetic estrogen and progestin, and many women clear on that combination. Of course, others gets worse. It's a gamble for you at this point. Glucosmart lowers androgens more than metformin from what I understand. Maybe you have low testosterone, or maybe you are estrogen dominant?
Brenmc,
I apologize for asking this again, I didn't recall the specifics of your situation. It's very unusual.
One important point. I post here to increase my understanding of a disease I have been struggling with for almost 20 years and to help others based on my success as well as my understanding of the evidence and endocrine system. This isn't a private discussion. What's written here could be read by someone many years later with your situation. The forum's replies (including mine) could further their understanding. So, I won't ask again about testing as long as you can appreciate this isn't just about you and your post.
I don't really understand your inquiries into hormone levels when you don't have the ability to check, modulate and monitor. Our hormone levels are critically important to health, degenerative disease and cancer prevention as well as proper aging and quality of life. Modifying them on your own without blood work is very risky. Please don't do this.
I agree with you that free testosterone and insulin cause acne. Progesterone does not cause acne. It does however, potentiate androgens and inhibit estradiol. Estradiol opposes androgens. So, taking excessive amounts of progesterone can neutralize estrogens that inhibit androgens.
Testosterone increases at ovulation and remains fairly steady the rest of the month. Progesterone peaks at day 21 and then drops off dramatically with estrogen signaling menses. When estrogen falls just before your period, it leaves testosterone unopposed to stimulate sebum production.
Unless you are estrogen dominant (large breasts, hips) then adding progesterone is not likely to help much - plus who would do it? It would be extremely unusual to have excessive progesterone. If you think progesterone is high, then we refer to that an estrogen deficiency and correct. You could also add a thin layer of estradiol get to your face to reduce the impact of testosterone on your skin.
Now I am really going to say something you don't want to hear. I mentioned earlier that elevated testosterone and secondarily elevated insulin causes acne. I didn't get far with you on this other than you don't eat meat and an extremely abbreviated list of the food you do eat. I think you were annoyed with me on that as well, indicating that I thought diet was the first line therapy and best treatment. Of course I mentioned that it was a good option for you because testing isn't avail.
Now it sounds like your skin improves on metformin? Bren- that's insulin resistance and poor diet. It may not resolve the problem completely, but highly likely it will help if you cut the carbs
I really do know how hard it is to change your diet, particularly if you think there is nothing wrong. I can tell you this with high probability: if metformin helps, then your nutrition is problematic. I am really into sports/fitness and I have a difficult time keeping my diet squared away. i will be happy to help you with your diet planning if interested.
Dont't doubt me on this. Why not add the inositol as well. If nothing else it's a potent anxiolytic.
I also know of an experimental treatment that requires injections. Not sure if you would have access.
I agree that this post may be helpful to someone else. That's partly why I feel it's a waste of time to repeat the same thing over and over. If you want to make a separate post about the importance of hormone testing or diet, please do.
A few years ago I purchased the Clear Skin Diet, which is compiled from dozens of sources, and saw a nutritionist regarding my diet and acne. I ate meat at the time, no carbs, and followed the routine precisely (I am not planning on listing every single thing I ate/eat). As I said, small pimples that I'd get on my cheeks or forehead clear(ed) up with this but NOT the nodular acne. Furthermore, many whole grains (oh no carbs) help stabilize blood sugar or even directly balance hormones, like buckwheat's testosterone lowering action.
Metformin helps with insulin resistance and is often prescribed to women with PCOS; this is a multidimensional issue (many hormone imbalances are at play in women who have PCOS). I took inositol for years to good effect but I think its effect has reduced, as I am now getting nodules again, hence the plan to restart metformin, giving my body a break from inositol and then restarting inositol in several months.
I don't think you have the authority, jlcampi, to assert that progesterone does not contribute to acne definitively. In fact, your comments on this outlined how, through various pathways, progesterone can cause acne. Many women who try supplementing with NPC for issues with balancing estrogen have experienced an increase in their acne due to the cream.
Again, jlcampi, although I do not have access to an endocrinologist, I do know my own body and am carefully monitoring my cycle, how I feel, and my skin. I am addressing my issues step by step with constructive help on this forum. I do not wish to engage further in a debate, it's just not my personality to argue. I am very happy you were able to address your issues in the manner you did. Everyone's different.
Thanks WishClean! I think I will do that. I'm definitely trying to pare down the supplements in order to better monitor my progress.
After I finished all the antibiotics a few years ago, I did a cleanse and then took acidophilus.
I would say wean off everything except the spiro, don't even take zinc or vitamin D right now. Then add 1 supplement at a time. I would tell you to get off spiro too, but that might make things worse so I think keep taking your usual dose and stay on just spiro for a few weeks, then add something for insulin, and then move on to vitamins and minerals. I'm saying this because if you are not taking the correct form of zinc and vitamin D, you might break out from those too.
One other thing: if you have tried many antibiotics over the years, your gut flora must have suffered. I suggest you either add digestive enzymes and/or acidophilus probiotics to help rebalance your digestive tract (maybe add them in a few weeks). If your stomach and liver are weak, you might be overloading them with medication and supplements....if your body is unable to fully break down everything you are taking, then you are adding more fuel to the fire.
EDIT: sorry, I was trying to post somewhere else after I posted here but my 2 posts got merged somehow. I deleted the other one.
brenmc, I think just go with your gut at this point. What do you think might be wrong?
I have been reading that DECREASED testosterone can actually leave DHT unopposed and thus contribute to high DHT. It's possible to have low testosterone and high DHT apparently. But I don't want to add more factors here because it will get confusing.
As for the link between diet and acne, I think for you, diet helps one type of acne but not the nodular acne. Have you looked at specific causes of nodular acne to see if maybe you can figure out what's causing it? I don't think it's only hormonal imbalances that can cause nodular acne.
Have the herpanacine vitamins helped at all? Maybe you have nutritional deficiencies? As I said before,all my acne had cleared for 2 years with just vitamin & mineral supplementation, and of course reduction of stress.
Progesterone: it may not be for you afterall. At least you tried and can scratch it off the list. For me, I was sure I have low progesterone, that's part of the reason why inositol helped me.
Glucosmart has d-chiro-inositol...maybe try plain myo-inositol if you think DCI isn't effective anymore.
I agree that this post may be helpful to someone else. That's partly why I feel it's a waste of time to repeat the same thing over and over. If you want to make a separate post about the importance of hormone testing or diet, please do.
A few years ago I purchased the Clear Skin Diet, which is compiled from dozens of sources, and saw a nutritionist regarding my diet and acne. I ate meat at the time, no carbs, and followed the routine precisely (I am not planning on listing every single thing I ate/eat). As I said, small pimples that I'd get on my cheeks or forehead clear(ed) up with this but NOT the nodular acne. Furthermore, many whole grains (oh no carbs) help stabilize blood sugar or even directly balance hormones, like buckwheat's testosterone lowering action.
Metformin helps with insulin resistance and is often prescribed to women with PCOS; this is a multidimensional issue (many hormone imbalances are at play in women who have PCOS). I took inositol for years to good effect but I think its effect has reduced, as I am now getting nodules again, hence the plan to restart metformin, giving my body a break from inositol and then restarting inositol in several months.
I don't think you have the authority, jlcampi, to assert that progesterone does not contribute to acne definitively. In fact, your comments on this outlined how, through various pathways, progesterone can cause acne. Many women who try supplementing with NPC for issues with balancing estrogen have experienced an increase in their acne due to the cream.
Again, jlcampi, although I do not have access to an endocrinologist, I do know my own body and am carefully monitoring my cycle, how I feel, and my skin. I am addressing my issues step by step with constructive help on this forum. I do not wish to engage further in a debate, it's just not my personality to argue. I am very happy you were able to address your issues in the manner you did. Everyone's different.
Thanks WishClean! I think I will do that. I'm definitely trying to pare down the supplements in order to better monitor my progress.
After I finished all the antibiotics a few years ago, I did a cleanse and then took acidophilus.
I would say wean off everything except the spiro, don't even take zinc or vitamin D right now. Then add 1 supplement at a time. I would tell you to get off spiro too, but that might make things worse so I think keep taking your usual dose and stay on just spiro for a few weeks, then add something for insulin, and then move on to vitamins and minerals. I'm saying this because if you are not taking the correct form of zinc and vitamin D, you might break out from those too.
One other thing: if you have tried many antibiotics over the years, your gut flora must have suffered. I suggest you either add digestive enzymes and/or acidophilus probiotics to help rebalance your digestive tract (maybe add them in a few weeks). If your stomach and liver are weak, you might be overloading them with medication and supplements....if your body is unable to fully break down everything you are taking, then you are adding more fuel to the fire.
EDIT: sorry, I was trying to post somewhere else after I posted here but my 2 posts got merged somehow. I deleted the other one.
Thanks for the well wishes tracy521! I'm trying to stay away from antibiotics though.
i agree with getting off everything except for the spiro but if the nodular acne is persisting what about trying keflex? i know you said you were on a lot of other antibiotics but figured i would ask you about this one. i had some bad cystic acne and nodules last year that no other antibiotic that i tried would even touch until i went on keflex. i took 500mg twice a day and by day 5 everything was gone and i have been on many many other antibiotics in the past too. i stayed on that for a long time until i thought the spiro kicked in and am now finally getting off of it. good luck to you!
Brenmc,
I agree that arguing isn't productive and respect your position not to debate. I also agree that I'm not an authority. As far as know, none of us that post are physicians.
I need to clarify my position on progesterone. On it's own, bio-identical progesterone does not stimulate the sebaceous glands. It can amplify the effects if testosterone as I have mentioned many times.
An individual's response to hormones is based on a number of factors that I wont go into here. It is important to note that ENDOCRINE BALANCE is important. The effects of progesterone will be much different on the estrogen deficient vs estrogen dominant.
If you have low estrogen and high testosterone, then progesterone will stimulate testosterone. Where this can be a big problem is a woman who has normal or deficient estrogen and then adds progesterone.
Yes, all the hormones must be relatively balanced, however it's estrogen that does much of the work in neutralizing the side effects of testosterone.
The bottom line is that each of us could have a slightly different hormonal profile that is influenced by many factors and changes as we age. Just the nuances we are discussing here make this very difficult communicate.
I have one more thought that might help you or someone else that doesn't have access to testing.
Get a diagram of the female hormone curves that are all plotted on the graph. You will need at least estradiol, progesterone and testosterone. Follow that daily and note how you feel, how much water you are retaining, do you feel energetic and/or anxious or do you feel peaceful or even lethargic. Keep these basic principles in mind:
Progesterone opposes estrogen. It also stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system and calms things down. Decreases bloating.
Estrogen opposes testosterone. It stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, helps you feel energized and if too high you can feel anxious. Estrogen causes you to retain water.
Typically progesterone peaks the middle of the last half of your cycle.
You may learn a lot this way.
Good luck. I hope this helps you!
I remembered my naturopath recommending NAC to me, it's supposed to be better than metformin because it helps the liver instead of overloads it. If I hadn't discovered inositol, I would be trying out NAC right now. Check out this very interesting study about NAC's impact on androgens and other hormonal symptoms (also cholersterol etc) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Clinical%2C+endocrine+and+metabolic+effects+of+metformin+vs+N-acetyl-cysteine+in++women+with+polycystic+ovary+syndrome
Btw, brenmc, I don't think progesterone is androgenic if your levels are low/normal. It's highly unlikely you have high progesterone, especially since you haven't been taking bcp. Estrogen/progestin therapy can be used to treat hyperandrogenism...although I don't agree with synthetic progestin & estrogen, but just to reassure you that progesterone alone cannot cause acne unless taken in excess and unless your body is converting progesterone/progestin into androgens instead of other hormones. It's typically considered as the hormone regulator, though.
I apologize for the delayed reply, my internet has been very unreliable as of late and has only been fixed this week. Thank you WishClean for the link on NAC. Have you found any information specifically on NAC helping acne?
I recently started metformin because it was the treatment my doctor was familiar with. But I am very open to trying something else. I do think that the glucosmart had stopped working but perhaps myoinositol will have better results.
One problem that's really been bothering me is the spotting in between my periods. Any idea what hormone is at play here?
Also, I haven't started the vitamins yet because I'm trying to slowly add treatments to my regimen.
brenmc, sorry to hear that you are still struggling. ): I have taken a form of NAC (L-Cysteine... from which NAC is derived) for a couple years but it never made a difference in my skin. However, it has many other benefits including supporting the liver. It can help with nail/hair growth too. Inositol might work better for you if metformin helped in the past since they have some similar effects.
On a side note, I have read recently that a large amount of people who have taken/take metformin suffer from a B vitamin deficiency. There are lots of B vitamins (including inositol, unofficially!) so it could be something to look into as well.
I hope things start turning up for you... that you can find something that clears your skin and keeps working.
Thanks hearts for the words of encouragement. It has been challenging to find many testimonials on NAC specifically helping acne. However, it is supposed to help with ovulation.
I spoke to a doctor today about my irregular periods and she said it sounds like I'm not ovulating. According to Progesteronetherapy.com, D, inositol, NAC and arginine are essential for ovulation.
I wonder if the form of inositol I was taking before, in glucosmart, stopped working and thus caused a sort of rebound effect, thereby impacting my period and acne.
I picked up NOW brand of inositol powder and NAC (with selenium and molybdenum) today. WishClean, could you tell me about taking the powder form (do you put it in a shake or just take with water, what dose do you take, how has it helped your acne, do you think NOW brand is reliable, etc..)? Furthermore, do you know of any indication of these supplements interacting with spiro or met or each other?
If all goes well, I would plan to slowly add one then the other and then wean off of met. I do not plan to just randomly add a bunch of pills at once. I'm putting a lot more effort into monitoring and recording my skin, period and reaction to foods or supplements.
NAC was recommended to me by various naturopaths and another doctor, but right now I'm fine with what I'm taking and don't want to add anything else (plus, I'm short on cash). I think to see if NAC works for you, you'd have to take it on its own, not with Selenium....they have similar functions, but NAC is stronger. Those herpanacine vitamins I told you about have a good blend with selenium, but again, I would add one thing at a time.
I use the Source Naturals brand of inositol powder...haven't tried the NOW brand because they add too many fillers to their supplements and I didn't want to risk it. When I run out, I might try the Jarrow Formula brand because it has good reviews online.
I take it with water on an empty stomach...I tried to dilute it in juice but it doesn't blend well, so I just swallow it straight from the teaspoon and wash it down with water.
Hey WishClean, unfortunately those were the only brand of those supplements available at my local health food store. I suppose I could try to order some online next time.
I seem to have a much more "normal" period today but was spotting for several days leading up to it. If you don't feel comfortable answering, please do not, but I was wondering if your period is irregular as well (since you have PCOS)?
I'm glad you're happy with your current treatment plan. The dose on the side of the inositol bottle suggests 2 1/4 tsp 1-3 times daily, at 730mg of inositol per 1/4 tsp. That seems really high to me, much more than glucosmart. What do you think about that?
Do you think NAC could interfere with inositol or vice versa?
Hey brenmc, the brand doesn't matter so much if it's pure inositol powder. Although I read far more positive ratings for the jarrow formulas inositol powder than any other brand, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I have been taking source naturals, which was cheaper and easier to find so you might just start with what you have and see how that goes.
I think that dose is a bit high. If you took it all at once it may make you a bit dizzy, but if you split it up it's more effective. I guess they recommend splitting the dose because inositol is water soluble, so your body can easily flush it out (e.g. when you go to the bathroom).
the source naturals inositol powder recommends 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon (845mg) per day - I would say stick to that if you can. You have to see what dose is right for you. I found that 1/4 or even 1/8 sometimes is fine for me. If I remember, I'll take it twice a day but sometimes I forget to take it with me to work and if I take it later in the evening I have trouble sleeping some nights...still not sure if inositol is to blame for this, or just my insomniac tendencies.
I don't think anything can interfere with inositol, but I'm not sure if NAC and spiro/met can interfere with each other, I'd be more worried about that than inositol interactions. Maybe try to take each thing as far away from each other as possible during the day? That's what I try to do, although with just vitamins and/or herbs it's usually fine to take them together.
I don't remember if NAC is best taken on an empty stomach or not.... if it's like l-glutathione (which helped me with liver function whenever I took it and it's a milder version of NAC), then it needs to be taken on an empty stomach sometime during the day (can cause insomnia).
My L-cysteine bottle says it's best to take it on an empty stomach. I'm guessing NAC is the same. I've never had insomnia from it, even when I take it not long before sleeping. It also shouldn't interfere with inositol again, I take both (though at lower doses) with no problems.
Hey,
The NAC bottle says to take with protein and that it may deplete vitamin C. The Inositol bottle says that it may cause a deficiency in Zinc. Since zinc is such an important vitamin for skin, I wonder if the inositol depleted my zinc too low and that contributed to the acne. . .
Are either of you supplementing Zinc with inositol?
As far as I know, inositol doesn't deplete zinc. I get those bumps from pure zinc supplements too, but the zinc in the herpanacine blend doesn't cause them so I just take that. The zinc in that multi should be enough for your daily needs.
Personally, I think selenium is safer than NAC (it's in herpanacine also), and doesn't deplete any vitamins.