Hmm....so the progesterone cream is a good idea you think? I'm hoping inositol can do both, lower androgens (which it already has judging by the reduction of facial and body hair) and boost progesterone so I won't need to take anything else. It also manages insulin quite well.
I looked it up earlier. Vitex has some aromatase activity. So, it reduces conversion of testosterone to estradiol and pushes the reaction toward dht. It makes sense that you might have hair growth with this supplement.
Men frequently use the more potent aromatase inhibitors like Ariimidex when supplementing with testosterone for hormone replacement therapy. It dramatically reduces conversion to estradiol. Testosterone must be metabolized, so the 5 alpha reductase enzyme picks up the slack and converts a larger share of testosterone to DHT.
SHBG is direcltly related to estradiol concentration. When the aromatase inhibitors are used and the reaction of testosterone is pushed toward DHT, SHBG is reduced. SHBG binds testosterone and other sex hormones. When this substance decreases it frees up more of the active hormone. In this case testosterone is potentiated.
Keep in mind though that Estradiol stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system and is also the most potent simulator of libido in both men and women (androgens must also be at a sufficient level). Tank estradiol in both men and women and you will dramatically reduce your energy levels and libido.
This is one of the reasons you take progesterone at night. It neutralizes estradiol and makes you feel tired and relaxed. Estradiol has the opposite effect.
Hmm....so the progesterone cream is a good idea you think? I'm hoping inositol can do both, lower androgens (which it already has judging by the reduction of facial and body hair) and boost progesterone so I won't need to take anything else. It also manages insulin quite well.
I looked it up earlier. Vitex has some aromatase activity. So, it reduces conversion of testosterone to estradiol and pushes the reaction toward dht. It makes sense that you might have hair growth with this supplement.
Men frequently use the more potent aromatase inhibitors like Ariimidex when supplementing with testosterone for hormone replacement therapy. It dramatically reduces conversion to estradiol. Testosterone must be metabolized, so the 5 alpha reductase enzyme picks up the slack and converts a larger share of testosterone to DHT.
SHBG is direcltly related to estradiol concentration. When the aromatase inhibitors are used and the reaction of testosterone is pushed toward DHT, SHBG is reduced. SHBG binds testosterone and other sex hormones. When this substance decreases it frees up more of the active hormone. In this case testosterone is potentiated.
Keep in mind though that Estradiol stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system and is also the most potent simulator of libido in both men and women (androgens must also be at a sufficient level). Tank estradiol in both men and women and you will dramatically reduce your energy levels and libido.
This is one of the reasons you take progesterone at night. It neutralizes estradiol and makes you feel tired and relaxed. Estradiol has the opposite effect.
My famialiarity with inositol is it's anxiolytic properties. I looked at a few studies and it appears that in endocrine disorders, inositol improves insulin resistence. I can't independently confirm this, however the claim is that in PCOS patients with hyperinsulimia, LH is reduced when insulin levels drop. If this is the case in those without PCOS that simply have elevated insulin, then the effects could ameliorate or reduce both causes of acne - elecated free testosterone and elevated insulin.
In terms of the progesterone, we need a bit more information. If you had your hormone levels checked at day 21 we would have enough information to know if progesterone is deficient. I know it's annoying to hear this after you just had your levels checked.
WishClean, do you know anything about the combo of inositol and choline? I see that combo frequently. I am strongly considering adding inositol very soon for my hair, as I'm still not getting my normal growth back since spiro.
Another question... you said you were going to up your dose of inositol to see if that would be all you need. Is there an amount that is toxic/too much?
Sorry to hear that the panels weren't as thorough as you had hoped. I dislike doctors. About retin-a... my skin HATED it. I broke out horribly, which I was warned about, but it never seemed to get better while using it. Did topicals even help you before? That seems like a dumb suggestion by them. Actually most of the advice seemed stupid. You went there for a professional opinion, not a list of options that you already knew about! 
WishClean, do you know anything about the combo of inositol and choline? I see that combo frequently. I am strongly considering adding inositol very soon for my hair, as I'm still not getting my normal growth back since spiro.
Another question... you said you were going to up your dose of inositol to see if that would be all you need. Is there an amount that is toxic/too much?
Sorry to hear that the panels weren't as thorough as you had hoped. I dislike doctors. About retin-a... my skin HATED it. I broke out horribly, which I was warned about, but it never seemed to get better while using it. Did topicals even help you before? That seems like a dumb suggestion by them. Actually most of the advice seemed stupid. You went there for a professional opinion, not a list of options that you already knew about!
Yeah, actually I read that without choline, inositol doesn't help that much with hair loss on its own. It helps with hirsutism, but not hair loss. I'm just nervous about adding anything else right now because my skin has been doing well. The only thing I increased is the amount of inositol, and I also added d-chiro-inositol along with myo-inositol and I like it so far. In addition to myo-inositol & choline, chiro is supposed to be more effective when combined with manganese. The company website I purchased the chiro from (chiral balance - good reviews overall!) advices to take manganese with it too if possible. At first I thought it might be a ploy to sell manganese supplements, but the don't even sell those, so I guess it's valid. I drink vitamin water from time to time and it has manganese so hopefully that will do something.
You would have to take A LOT of inositol for it to be toxic, and even then the risk of toxicity is very low because it's water soluble and gets flushed out of your system easily. That's why if you don't take it for a few days it loses its effectiveness....it's one of those things you have to take long term because it doesn't get stored in your liver like vitamin A or D. My doctor told me to first try a higher dose of inositol, but she wants to check my inositol levels in 1 year to make sure I don't overdo it... I had no idea they can check inositol levels. But anyway, people with ADD, anxiety, and other disorders take high amounts (like, 10x the PCOS dose) as a therapeutic dose and the only side effects that happen are upset stomach and diarrhea. The only exception is people with bipolar disorder - if they take too much, it can worsen bipolar symptoms. But too much for that would be close to 20g, you only need about 1-2g. I haven't even worked my way up to 2g of myo, but now that I added the chiro I just take both.
Yeah, doctors can be so clueless. She didn't even know about inositol and PCOS until I told her, and then she looked it up and had more information that I already knew. I also told my chiropractor about it because my numbness has gone away most of the time, and now he is ordering inositol supplements to sell at his office. I wish I could make a profit from it hehe
Anyway, let me know how you get on with it. You should just start with inositol for a week or so to see if it makes a difference on its own, and then add choline. Does choline have any side effects?
Yeah, actually I read that without choline, inositol doesn't help that much with hair loss on its own. It helps with hirsutism, but not hair loss. I'm just nervous about adding anything else right now because my skin has been doing well. The only thing I increased is the amount of inositol, and I also added d-chiro-inositol along with myo-inositol and I like it so far. In addition to myo-inositol & choline, chiro is supposed to be more effective when combined with manganese. The company website I purchased the chiro from (chiral balance - good reviews overall!) advices to take manganese with it too if possible. At first I thought it might be a ploy to sell manganese supplements, but the don't even sell those, so I guess it's valid. I drink vitamin water from time to time and it has manganese so hopefully that will do something.
You would have to take A LOT of inositol for it to be toxic, and even then the risk of toxicity is very low because it's water soluble and gets flushed out of your system easily. That's why if you don't take it for a few days it loses its effectiveness....it's one of those things you have to take long term because it doesn't get stored in your liver like vitamin A or D. My doctor told me to first try a higher dose of inositol, but she wants to check my inositol levels in 1 year to make sure I don't overdo it... I had no idea they can check inositol levels. But anyway, people with ADD, anxiety, and other disorders take high amounts (like, 10x the PCOS dose) as a therapeutic dose and the only side effects that happen are upset stomach and diarrhea. The only exception is people with bipolar disorder - if they take too much, it can worsen bipolar symptoms. But too much for that would be close to 20g, you only need about 1-2g. I haven't even worked my way up to 2g of myo, but now that I added the chiro I just take both.
Yeah, doctors can be so clueless. She didn't even know about inositol and PCOS until I told her, and then she looked it up and had more information that I already knew. I also told my chiropractor about it because my numbness has gone away most of the time, and now he is ordering inositol supplements to sell at his office. I wish I could make a profit from it hehe
Anyway, let me know how you get on with it. You should just start with inositol for a week or so to see if it makes a difference on its own, and then add choline. Does choline have any side effects?
Thanks, WishClean! You should get money from their sales, since you're becoming a inositol expert and informing them! (:
I'm so clueless about what to do with my hair. I am beginning to wonder if I just had a more "masculine" amount of hair before spiro, and it thinned out to be more "feminine." However, I miss the crazy thickness that I had before. I know hair takes a long time to grow, but I've been off spiro for almost two years I think.
I don't know much about choline or inositol, aside from what you have told me. I'll try to look into it some more. Thanks again for the info!
Yeah, actually I read that without choline, inositol doesn't help that much with hair loss on its own. It helps with hirsutism, but not hair loss. I'm just nervous about adding anything else right now because my skin has been doing well. The only thing I increased is the amount of inositol, and I also added d-chiro-inositol along with myo-inositol and I like it so far. In addition to myo-inositol & choline, chiro is supposed to be more effective when combined with manganese. The company website I purchased the chiro from (chiral balance - good reviews overall!) advices to take manganese with it too if possible. At first I thought it might be a ploy to sell manganese supplements, but the don't even sell those, so I guess it's valid. I drink vitamin water from time to time and it has manganese so hopefully that will do something.
You would have to take A LOT of inositol for it to be toxic, and even then the risk of toxicity is very low because it's water soluble and gets flushed out of your system easily. That's why if you don't take it for a few days it loses its effectiveness....it's one of those things you have to take long term because it doesn't get stored in your liver like vitamin A or D. My doctor told me to first try a higher dose of inositol, but she wants to check my inositol levels in 1 year to make sure I don't overdo it... I had no idea they can check inositol levels. But anyway, people with ADD, anxiety, and other disorders take high amounts (like, 10x the PCOS dose) as a therapeutic dose and the only side effects that happen are upset stomach and diarrhea. The only exception is people with bipolar disorder - if they take too much, it can worsen bipolar symptoms. But too much for that would be close to 20g, you only need about 1-2g. I haven't even worked my way up to 2g of myo, but now that I added the chiro I just take both.
Yeah, doctors can be so clueless. She didn't even know about inositol and PCOS until I told her, and then she looked it up and had more information that I already knew. I also told my chiropractor about it because my numbness has gone away most of the time, and now he is ordering inositol supplements to sell at his office. I wish I could make a profit from it hehe
Anyway, let me know how you get on with it. You should just start with inositol for a week or so to see if it makes a difference on its own, and then add choline. Does choline have any side effects?
Thanks, WishClean! You should get money from their sales, since you're becoming a inositol expert and informing them! (:
I'm so clueless about what to do with my hair. I am beginning to wonder if I just had a more "masculine" amount of hair before spiro, and it thinned out to be more "feminine." However, I miss the crazy thickness that I had before. I know hair takes a long time to grow, but I've been off spiro for almost two years I think.
I don't know much about choline or inositol, aside from what you have told me. I'll try to look into it some more. Thanks again for the info!
It's weird that some women lose more hair on spiro, which is supposed to help with hair growth. I guess everyone's body reacts differently. Vitex is supposed to help with hair growth too, but I started shedding more once I stopped it....maybe it's the change in hormones that causes the hair loss or intensifies it? Also, stress can cause hair shedding, are you under a lot of stress?
I took some pics of my hairline...the first one (striped shirt) I took on Nov. 29, the other one just now. I upped my inositol intake in the meantime, and added chiro inositol. Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I noticed some baby hairs growing. Is yours as bad as mine?
It's weird that some women lose more hair on spiro, which is supposed to help with hair growth. I guess everyone's body reacts differently. Vitex is supposed to help with hair growth too, but I started shedding more once I stopped it....maybe it's the change in hormones that causes the hair loss or intensifies it? Also, stress can cause hair shedding, are you under a lot of stress?
I took some pics of my hairline...the first one (striped shirt) I took on Nov. 29, the other one just now. I upped my inositol intake in the meantime, and added chiro inositol. Maybe I'm hallucinating, but I noticed some baby hairs growing. Is yours as bad as mine?
Yeah, it is weird... it's kinda frustrating because I can't search into anything related to combating hair shed/loss from antiandrogens. Almost all info online recommends antiandrogens for it. The only things I can find is maybe trying to lower DHT, or taking inositol or something.
I'm sure it's the hormonal changes that caused it initially. I experienced the big shed at around the year 1 mark of taking spiro. I've never had shedding like that in my life, even with high stress, and I wasn't stressed at the time. Vitex scares me, which is why I chose progesterone over it. I remember reading all sorts of potential side effects, where progesterone has none usually. I'd rather try vitamins or minerals at this point, since my hormones are doing well... something less drastic, haha! Which is why I'm considering inositol.
My hairline is pretty good... it's more like it thinned out pretty evenly all over my head. It feels like 2/3 or so of what it was pre-spiro. I think I do see more baby hairs in your second photo! It's kind of difficult to tell since it's different lighting, though.
By the way, your skin looks amazing in those photos! (: (: Keep us updated on how inositol is going!
Yeah, it is weird... it's kinda frustrating because I can't search into anything related to combating hair shed/loss from antiandrogens. Almost all info online recommends antiandrogens for it. The only things I can find is maybe trying to lower DHT, or taking inositol or something.
I'm sure it's the hormonal changes that caused it initially. I experienced the big shed at around the year 1 mark of taking spiro. I've never had shedding like that in my life, even with high stress, and I wasn't stressed at the time. Vitex scares me, which is why I chose progesterone over it. I remember reading all sorts of potential side effects, where progesterone has none usually. I'd rather try vitamins or minerals at this point, since my hormones are doing well... something less drastic, haha! Which is why I'm considering inositol.
My hairline is pretty good... it's more like it thinned out pretty evenly all over my head. It feels like 2/3 or so of what it was pre-spiro. I think I do see more baby hairs in your second photo! It's kind of difficult to tell since it's different lighting, though.
By the way, your skin looks amazing in those photos! (: (: Keep us updated on how inositol is going!
I guess some people's bodies react differently to anti androgens...it's weird that they have the opposite effect, which makes me think the hormonal imbalance is more complex in the first place and can't simply be fixed with antiandrogens. Maybe because your issue (and probably also mine) was more estrogen dominance and low progesterone....I mean, if you gained weight on spiro and lost hair, DHT blockers were obviously not the way to go. I lost some hair when I was drinking a ton of spearmint tea each day to block DHT. So annoying- we try to fix one issue and another issue is caused! It'sad that doctors haven't a clue when it comes to hormones, they just follow standardized treatments and hope for the best.
Yeah, herbs are more risky usually than supplements...that's why I'm hesitant to try anything else at the moment.
I did a quick search for choline and read that there are some links with prostate cancer, but I'm not sure if it's legit information. DIM protects against cancer, but choline is questionable...I'm guessing only at very high doses though. They actually sell inositol with choline. Manganese +choline might also work for hair, but I haven't researched that yet.
Has biotin ever helped you?? It's not the best for acne prone people, but it's in most of the skin & hair supplements.
I will update about d-chiro inositol...so far, I ovulated and only got 1 pimple, possibly because I picked at a clogged pore. And I reduced the myo dosage to see if DCI would work faster, and so far it's working I believe because it kept the ovulation breakout at bay. Too soon to tell about the hair though.
I have a question about DIM....if it supposedly boosts free testosterone (e.g. in EstroBlock and bodybuilding supplements), how is it a DHT blocker? I was wondering about that
Yeah, it is weird... it's kinda frustrating because I can't search into anything related to combating hair shed/loss from antiandrogens. Almost all info online recommends antiandrogens for it. The only things I can find is maybe trying to lower DHT, or taking inositol or something.
I'm sure it's the hormonal changes that caused it initially. I experienced the big shed at around the year 1 mark of taking spiro. I've never had shedding like that in my life, even with high stress, and I wasn't stressed at the time. Vitex scares me, which is why I chose progesterone over it. I remember reading all sorts of potential side effects, where progesterone has none usually. I'd rather try vitamins or minerals at this point, since my hormones are doing well... something less drastic, haha! Which is why I'm considering inositol.
My hairline is pretty good... it's more like it thinned out pretty evenly all over my head. It feels like 2/3 or so of what it was pre-spiro. I think I do see more baby hairs in your second photo! It's kind of difficult to tell since it's different lighting, though.
By the way, your skin looks amazing in those photos! (: (: Keep us updated on how inositol is going!
I guess some people's bodies react differently to anti androgens...it's weird that they have the opposite effect, which makes me think the hormonal imbalance is more complex in the first place and can't simply be fixed with antiandrogens. Maybe because your issue (and probably also mine) was more estrogen dominance and low progesterone....I mean, if you gained weight on spiro and lost hair, DHT blockers were obviously not the way to go. I lost some hair when I was drinking a ton of spearmint tea each day to block DHT. So annoying- we try to fix one issue and another issue is caused! It'sad that doctors haven't a clue when it comes to hormones, they just follow standardized treatments and hope for the best.
Yeah, herbs are more risky usually than supplements...that's why I'm hesitant to try anything else at the moment.
I did a quick search for choline and read that there are some links with prostate cancer, but I'm not sure if it's legit information. DIM protects against cancer, but choline is questionable...I'm guessing only at very high doses though. They actually sell inositol with choline. Manganese +choline might also work for hair, but I haven't researched that yet.
Has biotin ever helped you?? It's not the best for acne prone people, but it's in most of the skin & hair supplements.
I will update about d-chiro inositol...so far, I ovulated and only got 1 pimple, possibly because I picked at a clogged pore. And I reduced the myo dosage to see if DCI would work faster, and so far it's working I believe because it kept the ovulation breakout at bay. Too soon to tell about the hair though.
I have a question about DIM....if it supposedly boosts free testosterone (e.g. in EstroBlock and bodybuilding supplements), how is it a DHT blocker? I was wondering about that
Hi Wishclean.
I know all this seems very frustrating in terms of the seemingly conflicting symptoms you are experiencing. There are a few very talented and informed physicians that understand this clearly. Over the years I have read everything I can get that they publish.
Here is what's happening with your hair.
DHT causes an increase in body/facial hair and a loss of the hair on top of your head. There are probably millions of men that would love to hear what I am about to write. The cause of androgenic alopecia (loss of hair on your crown) is an inverted Testosterone/DHT ratio. In other words, those susceptible to hair loss have a higher concentration of DHT than Testosterone in the target cells. This can happen if there is an excess of the 5a reductase enzyme, testosterone deficiency or DHT excess.
Hi Wishclean.
I know all this seems very frustrating in terms of the seemingly conflicting symptoms you are experiencing. There are a few very talented and informed physicians that understand this clearly. Over the years I have read everything I can get that they publish.
Here is what's happening with your hair.
DHT causes an increase in body/facial hair and a loss of the hair on top of your head. There are probably millions of men that would love to hear what I am about to write. The cause of androgenic alopecia (loss of hair on your crown) is an inverted Testosterone/DHT ratio. In other words, those susceptible to hair loss have a higher concentration of DHT than Testosterone in the target cells. This can happen if there is an excess of the 5a reductase enzyme, testosterone deficiency or DHT excess.
Ok...so what is the most effective way of reducing DHT? Are you saying DIM works as an anti-androgen by boosting free testosterone, therefore balancing the testosterone: DHT ratio? I am hoping to solve all my skin issues (including hair problems) with just inositol, but it's not strictly a DHT blocker, it reduces testosterone. And some people take it to combat hair loss as well. So, if it's not a DHT blocker, why/how would it work on hairloss?
If you want to reduce the metabolism of testosterone to DHT, you take a 5a reductase inhibitor like finasteride.
If you want to balance the effects of DHT, you increase Estradiol.
If you want to block/balance the effects you can take a corticosteroid like dexamethasone or androcur. Dexamethasone is particularly good for blocking and balancing the effects of excess DHT that causes hair growth or make pattern baldness.
Taking an aromatase inhibitor like vitex or myomin is likely increasing DHT.
If you want to reduce the metabolism of testosterone to DHT, you take a 5a reductase inhibitor like finasteride.
If you want to balance the effects of DHT, you increase Estradiol.
If you want to block/balance the effects you can take a corticosteroid like dexamethasone or androcur. Dexamethasone is particularly good for blocking and balancing the effects of excess DHT that causes hair growth or make pattern baldness.
Taking an aromatase inhibitor like vitex or myomin is likely increasing DHT.
How about DIM, would that work?
Cortiseroids are no an option for me, I took androcur years ago and it messed up my metabolism. Even the mere thought of using cortiseroids does not appeal to me - they can cause more damage if they are not taken with caution.
Whenever I'm on anti-DHT supplements like saw palmetto or spearmint tea, I feel almost as bloated as I felt when I was on adrocur. Whereas when I was on vitex, I felt great...my mood was stable and my metabolism normalized. It's too bad that when one aspect gets better, other things get messed up.
So, then, according to the logic you mentioned, why is inositol reducing my facial hair if it's not directly blocking DHT? I think as far as the acne is concerned, it's working for me because I also have low progesterone (it was low when I got tested on a different day of my cycle too), and I usually respond well to treatments that boost progesterone, like vitex.
If you want to reduce the metabolism of testosterone to DHT, you take a 5a reductase inhibitor like finasteride.
If you want to balance the effects of DHT, you increase Estradiol.
If you want to block/balance the effects you can take a corticosteroid like dexamethasone or androcur. Dexamethasone is particularly good for blocking and balancing the effects of excess DHT that causes hair growth or make pattern baldness.
Taking an aromatase inhibitor like vitex or myomin is likely increasing DHT.
How about DIM, would that work?
Cortiseroids are no an option for me, I took androcur years ago and it messed up my metabolism. Even the mere thought of using cortiseroids does not appeal to me - they can cause more damage if they are not taken with caution.
Whenever I'm on anti-DHT supplements like saw palmetto or spearmint tea, I feel almost as bloated as I felt when I was on adrocur. Whereas when I was on vitex, I felt great...my mood was stable and my metabolism normalized. It's too bad that when one aspect gets better, other things get messed up.
So, then, according to the logic you mentioned, why is inositol reducing my facial hair if it's not directly blocking DHT? I think as far as the acne is concerned, it's working for me because I also have low progesterone (it was low when I got tested on a different day of my cycle too), and I usually respond well to treatments that boost progesterone, like vitex.
I have some but not extensive experience/knowledge on the supplements that are mentioned here. I have taken DIM on and off for quite some time to improve the ratio of good to bad estradiol metabolites. By improving metabolism it may also lower estrogen a bit, however I haven't looked that up so I'm only speculating. Other than here I have never heard that it has anti-androgen effects.
Cortisol is the most important hormone in the human body. About 50% of the middle aged population (beginning around 40 plus or minus a few years) has a cortisol deficiency. This hormone has 3 primary functions:
Elevating blood pressure (along with aldosterone - the mineral corticosteroid)
Reducing inflammation
Making glucose available.
It stimulates the immune system and provides dynamism. If levels are too high it will cause side effects such as suppression of the immune system (this is how it's primary used by most docs). Those of us with deficient cortisol have a plethora of ongoing complaints that would never typically be connected to this hormone. Deficient levels result in an inability to handle stress and also effect the levels of circulating free thyroid. I do agree that it must be done by a practitioner that is familiar with it's use and always given with other sex steroids or there will be side effects.
It doesn't surprise me that you didn't like androcur. This is true androgen antagonist. Androgens are hugely important for men and women. They work as an anxiolytic, increase confidence and drive, increase libido, concentration, muscle mass and decisiveness along with decreasing fat mass etc, etc. When you took androcur and wiped androgens you saw the effects of unopposed estradiol. Bloating, moodiness etc.
The bloating you felt on Androcur is what those with estrogen dominance experience, particularly during the last half of of their cycle when progesterone should be peaking.
The herbal anti-androgens have more than one active ingredient and may have more than one action. They, along with some of the other "anti-androgens" such as spiro have mild to moderate action and work on other hormones as well. A true anti-androgen like androcur will not be tolerated by most because of the huge number of very positive effects of testosterone (I haven't even mentioned the significant number of positive effects that androgens have on the cardiovascular system or it's effects on brain health and diabetes).
Also doesn't surprise me you didn't like the mild 5 alpha reductase inhibitor saw palmetto. In reducing DHT, you pushed the metabolism of testosterone toward estradiol and saw the effects of elevated estradiol (estrogen dominance).
Vitex has some mild aromatase inhibition activity. In other words it reduces the conversion of testosterone to estradiol. This means testosterone metabolism must be pushed DHT. What I am hearing you say is that you feel better when estrogen is inhibited and androgens are elevated. THIS IS WHAT I WOULD EXPECT AND ADVOCATE EVERYWHERE EXCEPT ACNE.ORG. I'm trying to help and learn something in the process and this position would be inappropriate for those suffering with acne.
Inositol is a wild card. We don't know enough about it. It appears that it helps to control glucose and increases insulin sensitivity. By lowering insulin, you reduce fat production and slow sebum production. It apparently also lowers androgens. I will note that it probably does this poorly or you would be experiencing the effects of estrogen dominance like you did with Androcur.
Keep in mind that any hormonal effects of hirsutism take at least 6 mos. You will not see the effects sooner than this. If you are it's from something else or levels are extreme.
Lastly, and possibly most importantly, DHT DOES NOT CAUSE ACNE. Acne is primarily caused by testosterone and exacerbated by insulin. What I just said will be controversial here. I'm in the science business and have no emotional ties to a particular position. If there is evidence to the contrary I would very much like to see it and will change my position pursuant to the evidence. The most likely reason most believe this is that when they take an anti-dht supplement like saw palmetto it has worked to some degree. It works not because it reduces dht but because saw palmetto has 5 alpha reductase properties and pushes testosterone metabolism toward estradiol. It's the increased estradiol that inhibits the side effects of testosterone that is helping with acne, not reduced dht.
It looks like the inositol has some promise. Some of these other supplements in my view are just muddying the water because the effects take time to see. If you are taking more than 1 and switching every couple of months it will be difficult to see the effects. Especially if you are referring to effects like hirsutism.
My suggestion is to get a complete hormone panel as we discussed previously and have your blood collected on day 21. You are correct, some hormones inhibit and others stimulate activity. The proper way to deal with the problem is to balance EVERYTHING. Changing one hormone has effects on others and it's difficult to track what happening overall.
Yes, I wish my former doctors had told me about estrogen dominance, I had to learn about that online instead. My guess is that a combination of vitex with saw palmetto and other herbs would work really well, but I would only trust an experienced naturopath to custom make a blend. But right now, I'd rather go the supplement route and stick with what works. Inositol has worked quite fast, and I'm going by evidence here. I'm not willing to put up with an initial breakout from any treatment, I have scarring already. The only reason inositol isn't as known in the medical field in the US (its effects are more discussed in Europe, where most of the studies took place) is because no pharmaceutical company will sponsor any studies on it. Why would they, when they can just sell expensive drugs instead.
Chiral Balance capitalized on chiro-inositol and they make a lot of money by selling it since it's not widely available. They did their research and I am seeing even more rapid results from taking DCI combined with myo-inositol, so right now I can't think of another route that would work better.
Ideally, I would like to test for a full hormonal panel, but my insurance doesn't cover another test until 2014. My plan is to wait and see how this regimen works for a few months. After my last visit to this doctor, who is basically considered one of the best for bio-indentical hormone therapy, I realized that even "the best" can't help me that. It's VERY hard to find a reliable doctor for hormonal treatments. I have seen some of the best, and all they did was use me as a guinea pig and load me up with hormones with no consideration of the damage done to my body. I'd rather take a less extreme route if that's working, before resorting to more extreme treatments. I showed the dr. the progress with hirsutism and she couldn't believe that the hairs on my chin and neck were so reduced in such a short time. How do you explain that? I even stopped all the hair removal creams and now I only trim the fuzz once in a while.
I realized I had issues around the time of ovulation, and this helps with healthy ovulation. It's also comparable to metformin, minus the side effects. There is so much that conventional doctors don't know about.
I'm glad you found something that works. You are correct regarding the metfotman/inositol similarity.
They both improve insulin resistance. High levels of insulin certainly can contribute to acne.
I like what I am hearing about this supplement. My only familiarity with it was it's anxiolytic properties.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will be looking into it further.
I'm glad you found something that works. You are correct regarding the metfotman/inositol similarity.
They both improve insulin resistance. High levels of insulin certainly can contribute to acne.
I like what I am hearing about this supplement. My only familiarity with it was it's anxiolytic properties.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will be looking into it further.
Yeah, it's too bad that there aren't more studies about it...especially for its long term effects. I don't know if its impact eventually wears off when inositol levels rise, but I'm guessing because it's water soluble the body will always be able to utilize it.
I was not aware I had insulin resistance, but this helped me figure out another piece of the puzzle. Glucosmart basically works the same.
The only thing I can't confirm based on reading reviews is why some thin women with PCOS gain weight on inositol. I noticed initially that I had some bloating on specific days of the month, but this is supposed to help overweight women (which I'm not) lose weight. Maybe it has the opposite effect on thin women with PCOS. Nevertheless, every time I weigh myself I weigh the same or less, so the bloating might be temporary.
On 12/7/2013 at 12:36 PM, WishClean said:Yeah, it's too bad that there aren't more studies about it...especially for its long term effects. I don't know if its impact eventually wears off when inositol levels rise, but I'm guessing because it's water soluble the body will always be able to utilize it.
I was not aware I had insulin resistance, but this helped me figure out another piece of the puzzle. Glucosmart basically works the same.
The only thing I can't confirm based on reading reviews is why some thin women with PCOS gain weight on inositol. I noticed initially that I had some bloating on specific days of the month, but this is supposed to help overweight women (which I'm not) lose weight. Maybe it has the opposite effect on thin women with PCOS. Nevertheless, every time I weigh myself I weigh the same or less, so the bloating might be temporary.
Well, I started inositol + choline yesterday. I figured it wouldn't hurt to try for a few months to see if I get more hair growth. I'll let you know how it goes! I'll keep track of my weight too... that worries me. So far no side effects. 
Here are the capsules that I bought, they were on sale at Sprouts. Not a very high dose of each (250mg) but it might be better to work up, don't you think? [Edited link out]
On 12/10/2013 at 12:32 AM, hearts said:Well, I started inositol + choline yesterday. I figured it wouldn't hurt to try for a few months to see if I get more hair growth. I'll let you know how it goes! I'll keep track of my weight too... that worries me. So far no side effects.
Here are the capsules that I bought, they were on sale at Sprouts. Not a very high dose of each (250mg) but it might be better to work up, don't you think? [Edited link out]
Oh cool, I hope it works out, keep me updated [Edited link out] As for the weight, I did read that some thin women with PCOS tend to gain weight on inositol, and I think I feel a bit heavier but it could be other factors as well. Do you have PCOS btw? I can't remember if you do or not. My weight on the scale usually fluctuates by 2-3 lbs anyway, so it's hard t tell. I also tend to eat protein bars almost daily because they don't cause me any digestive issues, and also I cut back on the exercise a lot. I will try to be more diligent with workouts to see if that makes a difference.
Does the twinlab supplement contain myo or chiro inositol? Approx. 600mg of chiro is equivalent to almost twice as much (if not more) myo. Actually, since I added chiroinositol, I noticed more rapid improvement and my skin feels softer. Not sure about hair growth though...some days I shed less than others, but nothing consistent yet. I would add choline, but right now I'm too nervous to add anything else. Have you read any information on choline?
On 12/10/2013 at 8:05 AM, WishClean said:Oh cool, I hope it works out, keep me updated [Edited image out] As for the weight, I did read that some thin women with PCOS tend to gain weight on inositol, and I think I feel a bit heavier but it could be other factors as well. Do you have PCOS btw? I can't remember if you do or not. My weight on the scale usually fluctuates by 2-3 lbs anyway, so it's hard t tell. I also tend to eat protein bars almost daily because they don't cause me any digestive issues, and also I cut back on the exercise a lot. I will try to be more diligent with workouts to see if that makes a difference.
Does the twinlab supplement contain myo or chiro inositol? Approx. 600mg of chiro is equivalent to almost twice as much (if not more) myo. Actually, since I added chiroinositol, I noticed more rapid improvement and my skin feels softer. Not sure about hair growth though...some days I shed less than others, but nothing consistent yet. I would add choline, but right now I'm too nervous to add anything else. Have you read any information on choline?
Thanks! I don't know if I have or ever had PCOS. Many symptoms I had before progesterone cream made me think I did (e.g., acne, amenorrhea, irregular periods, hirsutism, bloating, cold hands and feet, depression, anxiety, etc.) since they all started at puberty and never resolved. I also had painful cysts on my ovaries that showed up in several ultrasounds but they would go away and reappear so doctors never took it seriously. I also am nowhere near overweight which seems to be the red flag symptom for them. However, after progesterone cream almost all of those symptoms have disappeared and haven't returned even on a much lower dose.
Apparently the inositol in those caps is crystalline pure myo-inositol. Isn't chiro more expensive than myo, though? I am on a tight budget for now, unfortunately!
I am so happy to hear that you're experiencing even better improvement with inositol! It really gives me confidence. I'm thinking it might even make it so I can take less DIM eventually if I take it with the I/C since it also helps with hormonal balancing.
I'm still learning a lot about both inositol and choline, but I can try to summarize some things so far...
Choline is another unofficial B-vitamin similar to inositol. It's essential but sometimes people don't get enough due to popular diets that limit foods like egg yolks and fatty meats which are rich in choline. It has many benefits on top of assisting the nervous system. Transporting fat as energy through the body, protecting/cleaning the liver, structuring cell membranes, improving cognitive function (helps a lot with memory), maintaining water balance, preventing birth defects, and also acts as an anti-inflammatory. Apparently choline works together with inositol to form lecithin, a lipid that is needed to form hair cells. This is what made me think that the combination might be worth a try.
I don't blame you for being wary about adding something else to your regimen. Maybe just sticking with what you're doing will be all you need. I am the same way ” I have to do my research and be very confident in something before trying it. I figure vitamins are usually less risky, too.
Another random note I found about inositol... supposedly a lot of caffeine can cause a deficiency. Perhaps that is my problem... funny that I am drinking iced coffee while writing this. Haha.
On 12/11/2013 at 12:19 AM, hearts said:Thanks! I don't know if I have or ever had PCOS. Many symptoms I had before progesterone cream made me think I did (e.g., acne, amenorrhea, irregular periods, hirsutism, bloating, cold hands and feet, depression, anxiety, etc.) since they all started at puberty and never resolved. I also had painful cysts on my ovaries that showed up in several ultrasounds but they would go away and reappear so doctors never took it seriously. I also am nowhere near overweight which seems to be the red flag symptom for them. However, after progesterone cream almost all of those symptoms have disappeared and haven't returned even on a much lower dose.
Apparently the inositol in those caps is crystalline pure myo-inositol. Isn't chiro more expensive than myo, though? I am on a tight budget for now, unfortunately!
I am so happy to hear that you're experiencing even better improvement with inositol!
I'm still learning a lot about both inositol and choline, but I can try to summarize some things so far...
Choline is another unofficial B-vitamin similar to inositol. It's essential but sometimes people don't get enough due to popular diets that limit foods like egg yolks and fatty meats which are rich in choline. It has many benefits on top of assisting the nervous system. Transporting fat as energy through the body, protecting/cleaning the liver, structuring cell membranes, improving cognitive function (helps a lot with memory), maintaining water balance, preventing birth defects, and also acts as an anti-inflammatory. Apparently choline works together with inositol to form lecithin, a lipid that is needed to form hair cells. This is what made me think that the combination might be worth a try.
I don't blame you for being wary about adding something else to your regimen. Maybe just sticking with what you're doing will be all you need. I am the same way ” I have to do my research and be very confident in something before trying it. I figure vitamins are usually less risky, too.
Another random note I found about inositol... supposedly a lot of caffeine can cause a deficiency. Perhaps that is my problem... funny that I am drinking iced coffee while writing this.
Thanks for the info on choline. I would definitely be interested in your progress with it, and might try it too if my hair doesn't grow back. Yeah, inositol and caffeine do not go together! Try to take inositol as far apart from coffee as possible for better absorption. Myo-inositol is the cheapest yes, and only very few brands sell chiro-inositol because it's not as easy to produce as myo...plus, I think Chiral Balance has a patent on it, so I unfortunately had to shell out $$ to order it from them. But at least I'm happy with the results so far.
Do you still have hirsutism btw, or did it decrease when you added NPC? The worst mistake I made was get laser hair treatment on and under my chin - that made the hair grow back thicker and gave me folliculitis along my jawline [Edited image out]
On 12/11/2013 at 7:26 AM, WishClean said:Thanks for the info on choline. I would definitely be interested in your progress with it, and might try it too if my hair doesn't grow back. Yeah, inositol and caffeine do not go together! Try to take inositol as far apart from coffee as possible for better absorption. Myo-inositol is the cheapest yes, and only very few brands sell chiro-inositol because it's not as easy to produce as myo...plus, I think Chiral Balance has a patent on it, so I unfortunately had to shell out $$ to order it from them. But at least I'm happy with the results so far.
Do you still have hirsutism btw, or did it decrease when you added NPC? The worst mistake I made was get laser hair treatment on and under my chin - that made the hair grow back thicker and gave me folliculitis along my jawline [Edited image out]
No problem. That is a really good idea to take inositol at a totally different time than caffeine... I will take it at night then, because I am not alive until my morning coffee, lol.
Yes, hirsutism is one of the only things that progesterone didn't take care of. I don't have it that bad, mind you... I get dark hairs under my chin, on my stomach, toes, etc... but nothing like those pictures of more serious instances. I'm kind of convinced that it is more hereditary (middle eastern genes) than a hormonal problem, even though it's gotten worse the last few years. I'll make sure to update you about that too if inositol helps.
Good to know about laser treatment on your face... I had laser treatment on a lot of my body (armpits, full legs, bikini area, toes) because it was so painful to shave, but it was only a good thing for me. I'll make sure to never do it on my face. Has anything helped? I imagine if you're getting less hair on your face from inositol that it has improved?
On 12/11/2013 at 9:51 AM, hearts said:On 12/11/2013 at 7:26 AM, WishClean said:Thanks for the info on choline. I would definitely be interested in your progress with it, and might try it too if my hair doesn't grow back. Yeah, inositol and caffeine do not go together! Try to take inositol as far apart from coffee as possible for better absorption. Myo-inositol is the cheapest yes, and only very few brands sell chiro-inositol because it's not as easy to produce as myo...plus, I think Chiral Balance has a patent on it, so I unfortunately had to shell out $$ to order it from them. But at least I'm happy with the results so far.
Do you still have hirsutism btw, or did it decrease when you added NPC? The worst mistake I made was get laser hair treatment on and under my chin - that made the hair grow back thicker and gave me folliculitis along my jawline [Edited image out]
No problem.
Yes, hirsutism is one of the only things that progesterone didn't take care of. I don't have it that bad, mind you... I get dark hairs under my chin, on my stomach, toes, etc... but nothing like those pictures of more serious instances. I'm kind of convinced that it is more hereditary (middle eastern genes) than a hormonal problem, even though it's gotten worse the last few years. I'll make sure to update you about that too if inositol helps.
Good to know about laser treatment on your face... I had laser treatment on a lot of my body (armpits, full legs, bikini area, toes) because it was so painful to shave, but it was only a good thing for me. I'll make sure to never do it on my face. [Edited image out] Has anything helped? I imagine if you're getting less hair on your face from inositol that it has improved?
If you take inositol at night it's a bit less effective,al least based on my experience, and it might cause slight insomnia. But this is mainly if you are taking it to control androgens - it's best to take it early in the day on an empty stomach. If I need some caffeinated tea, I take inositol right when I wake up, then wait 30-60 mins before drinking tea and eating breakfast.
I have mediterranean genes, so we tend to be a bit hairier anyways...but now that I live in the US, I notice excess hair more and it bothers me sometimes. I'm not that hairy either, but I was more hairy this past year. The only area where laser treatments worked for me was on my legs and the sides of my face. Then I stupidly bought a groupon at a place where a girl I knew worked, and she used the palomar laser for my armpits, breasts (I was growing hair there too!), jawline and under the chin. Well, that laser is crap because not only did hair start growing back after 5 treatments, it grew back thicker and more coarse! That's why I was exasperating because I tried to fix the issue but I made it worse. Plus, the heat from the laser and the shaving activated dormant follicles on my lower neck, so I started growing hair there too!
The same thing happened to my sister - she grew facial hair in places she didn't have before.
I used to get electrolysis and that works, but it's so time consuming, expensive, and slow. It was the only thing that worked though in terms of treatments.
Now I don't get as much facial hair thankfully, and the hair under my chin is less dense. I also noticed that I don't have to remove the hair above my lip every week..now it's more like every 2.5-3 weeks. So that's good [Edited image out] Not much change on my head though....I think I may need choline for that.
On 12/11/2013 at 11:37 AM, WishClean said:If you take inositol at night it's a bit less effective,al least based on my experience, and it might cause slight insomnia. But this is mainly if you are taking it to control androgens - it's best to take it early in the day on an empty stomach. If I need some caffeinated tea, I take inositol right when I wake up, then wait 30-60 mins before drinking tea and eating breakfast.
I have mediterranean genes, so we tend to be a bit hairier anyways...but now that I live in the US, I notice excess hair more and it bothers me sometimes. I'm not that hairy either, but I was more hairy this past year. The only area where laser treatments worked for me was on my legs and the sides of my face. Then I stupidly bought a groupon at a place where a girl I knew worked, and she used the palomar laser for my armpits, breasts (I was growing hair there too!), jawline and under the chin. Well, that laser is crap because not only did hair start growing back after 5 treatments, it grew back thicker and more coarse! That's why I was exasperating because I tried to fix the issue but I made it worse. Plus, the heat from the laser and the shaving activated dormant follicles on my lower neck, so I started growing hair there too!
The same thing happened to my sister - she grew facial hair in places she didn't have before.
I used to get electrolysis and that works, but it's so time consuming, expensive, and slow. It was the only thing that worked though in terms of treatments.
Now I don't get as much facial hair thankfully, and the hair under my chin is less dense. I also noticed that I don't have to remove the hair above my lip every week..now it's more like every 2.5-3 weeks. So that's good [Edited image out] Not much change on my head though....I think I may need choline for that.
Oh, good to know! Thanks for clarifying. I'm not taking it for androgens, but I'll stick to morning.
That's too bad about the laser... I've never heard of that happening. Awesome about how inositol is working for your excess hair now, though! Maybe it will eventually help diminish the effects from the laser.
Oh, good to know! Thanks for clarifying. I'm not taking it for androgens, but I'll stick to morning.
That's too bad about the laser... I've never heard of that happening. Awesome about how inositol is working for your excess hair now, though! (: Maybe it will eventually help diminish the effects from the laser.
I hope it works for you! For me, it was one of those supplements where I could tell it was working within a few days. But for hair growth it will definitely take longer to see results.
Yeah, I had no idea laser could activate dormant hair follicles, but when I complained to the company they said it's a possibility if you are genetically inclined to more hair growth. Someone on the .org also told me that he got more facial hair on new parts of his face from red light treatments, so I guess red light and heat can stimulate new growth. It's supposed to work on hair on the head too. I get red light treatments often but thankfully so far I haven't noticed any more facial hair. Inositol definitely made the facial hair more fine and less noticeable 