ylem i hope you take protein and vitamin c. getting deep settings is good, but you also need to make sure your body can make new collagen as best as possible.

My derm told me injesting supplements won't migrate to the skin for any physical effect.

 

You really do need to be taking extra vitamin C and protein. it's not some homeopathic remedy or old wives' tale. vitamin C is crucial catalyst in the collagen formation process, look it up. your body can't form collagen without it.

people who don't get vitamin C get scurvy, and guess where one of the places you see it is? the gums! so it's silly to think that ingested vitamin C isn't going to be circulated to your skin.

the protein is also important since protein and amino acids are the building blocks for new collagen and skin.

moreover, burn patients are put on special diets super-rich in vitamin C and protein. so that they can grow new skin. again, look it up.

someone once tried to argue against this advice by saying, "you shouldn't be concerned about new collagen. collagen is scar tissue. you want new epithelial cells." you actually do want new collagen to be laid down, along with new elastin fibers. the difference is that its happening during "regeneration" and not "repair" so it won't form scar tissue.

 

I know, but I've tried it before, for like a year after my dermabrasion. I also tried it again last year when I was still breaking out and getting new scarring. It did NOT keep me from scarring from breakouts and had no physical effect on the appearance of any existing scars. I eventually went up to 3x the recommended dose. I was speaking to my doctor about this and that is when he told me that reason.

You still don't get it. In the case of Fraxel, it has nothing to do with stopping scars from forming. If you get a wound infection (acne or otherwise) that damages the dermis, then it causes scarring. If you get larger cysts that ruptures, then Vitamin C and protein will not do much if anything to stop such scarring. That's due to the nature of macroscopic injury and "healing by primary and secondary intention" aka "repair" aka "scarring."

So you will still get a scar. It might heal quicker or a little better than it would have otherwise, but still scar. (Ironically, faster healing leads to greater scarring. Look it up, children are actually more prone to scars than the elderly. Although the elderly run the risk of having wounds not heal at all!)

The reason burn victims need protein and Vitamin C is due to the extensiveness of their skin injury. They have large areas where the skin is completely burned away. This leaves them open to infection and extensive scarring.

[AS AN ASIDE: Many people on here experience post Fraxel breakouts. Most of them, and even their doctors, think it's because of the moisturizers they are using. This is wrong. The Fraxel, given at higher levels, temporarily disrupts your skin integrity. This creates irritation (milia) and contributes to infection (acne). Within a few days the MTZs are healed, skin integrity returns, and the infection and irritations start to go down. I'm glad to see that the blue dye has been done away with. Srubbing freshly wounded skin is a sure way to cause irritation and infection!]

The difference when doing Fraxel is that the injury to your skin is microscopic. This microscopic wounding of the dermis does two things:

1. First the thermal injury denatures the (old or scarred) tissue.

2. Second your body responds by "regenerating" the denatured collagen, elastin, and dermal skin cells.

So over the 6-7 months of your Fraxel treatment the skin is in a constant state of "regeneration." It is constantly laying down new healthy tissue. This is called "regeneration."

Normally the only other time your skin would regenerate from a wound is if you got a small paper cut. Ever notice how the skin heals perfectly after a paper cut? A similar process is occurring after Fraxel. Though with Fraxel it is happening with a closed wound, much smaller in diameter, but much deeper into the skin.

However, unlike a paper cut the wounding is not happening in just one spot. It is happening over your entire face, 15-20% each month! That is much more than normal! So you need to make sure your body has the extra Vitamin C and protein to regenerate itself.

Just think how much money you spent on the treatment itself. How much extra is it to buy a jar of capsules of vitamin C, a few jars of whey protein, and take a bit each day?

[AS AN ASIDE: Many people on here experience post Fraxel breakouts. Most of them, and even their doctors, think it's because of the moisturizers they are using. This is wrong. The Fraxel, given at higher levels, temporarily disrupts your skin integrity. This creates irritation (milia) and contributes to infection (acne). Within a few days the MTZs are healed, skin integrity returns, and the infection and irritations start to go down. I'm glad to see that the blue dye has been done away with. Srubbing freshly wounded skin is a sure way to cause irritation and infection!]

Skimpywimpy- do you have any idea if fraxel breakouts can be prevented with antibiotics? I agree that the culprit must be bacteria that got in from the microscopic wounds (I had to use the blue die). I got them after my first fraxel, although they look a lot better almost 5 days post treatment. I'm surprised they don't give that as a standard protocol (assuming it works)

You still don't get it. In the case of Fraxel, it has nothing to do with stopping scars from forming. If you get a wound infection (acne or otherwise) that damages the dermis, then it causes scarring. If you get larger cysts that ruptures, then Vitamin C and protein will not do much if anything to stop such scarring. That's due to the nature of macroscopic injury and "healing by primary and secondary intention" aka "repair" aka "scarring."

So you will still get a scar. It might heal quicker or a little better than it would have otherwise, but still scar. (Ironically, faster healing leads to greater scarring. Look it up, children are actually more prone to scars than the elderly. Although the elderly run the risk of having wounds not heal at all!)

The reason burn victims need protein and Vitamin C is due to the extensiveness of their skin injury. They have large areas where the skin is completely burned away. This leaves them open to infection and extensive scarring.

[AS AN ASIDE: Many people on here experience post Fraxel breakouts. Most of them, and even their doctors, think it's because of the moisturizers they are using. This is wrong. The Fraxel, given at higher levels, temporarily disrupts your skin integrity. This creates irritation (milia) and contributes to infection (acne). Within a few days the MTZs are healed, skin integrity returns, and the infection and irritations start to go down. I'm glad to see that the blue dye has been done away with. Srubbing freshly wounded skin is a sure way to cause irritation and infection!]

The difference when doing Fraxel is that the injury to your skin is microscopic. This microscopic wounding of the dermis does two things:

1. First the thermal injury denatures the (old or scarred) tissue.

2. Second your body responds by "regenerating" the denatured collagen, elastin, and dermal skin cells.

So over the 6-7 months of your Fraxel treatment the skin is in a constant state of "regeneration." It is constantly laying down new healthy tissue. This is called "regeneration."

Normally the only other time your skin would regenerate from a wound is if you got a small paper cut. Ever notice how the skin heals perfectly after a paper cut? A similar process is occurring after Fraxel. Though with Fraxel it is happening with a closed wound, much smaller in diameter, but much deeper into the skin.

However, unlike a paper cut the wounding is not happening in just one spot. It is happening over your entire face, 15-20% each month! That is much more than normal! So you need to make sure your body has the extra Vitamin C and protein to regenerate itself.

Just think how much money you spent on the treatment itself. How much extra is it to buy a jar of capsules of vitamin C, a few jars of whey protein, and take a bit each day?

Sure, what the hell. I'll give it another go, but seriously, NOTHING has ever helped me. I truly have the most difficult skin to deal with. My grandmother used to get these large boils behind her ears and she had really oily skin. Somehow, whe that transmitted genetically, the acne became cystic. One of my cysrs behind my ear was so large they had to cut it out and have it sent to a lab for testing. They said if they had left it in it could have gone to my brain!

I am always dedicated when I put myself toward following a regimen, so when I say something hasn;t worked, it;s because it truly hasn't. Now, dermabrasion creates a wound too. Why didn't the vitamins help that? It shouldn't be that hared to understand, and should have made a difference.

ylem i hope you take protein and vitamin c. getting deep settings is good, but you also need to make sure your body can make new collagen as best as possible.

My derm told me injesting supplements won't migrate to the skin for any physical effect.

 

You really do need to be taking extra vitamin C and protein. it's not some homeopathic remedy or old wives' tale. vitamin C is crucial catalyst in the collagen formation process, look it up. your body can't form collagen without it.

people who don't get vitamin C get scurvy, and guess where one of the places you see it is? the gums! so it's silly to think that ingested vitamin C isn't going to be circulated to your skin.

the protein is also important since protein and amino acids are the building blocks for new collagen and skin.

moreover, burn patients are put on special diets super-rich in vitamin C and protein. so that they can grow new skin. again, look it up.

someone once tried to argue against this advice by saying, "you shouldn't be concerned about new collagen. collagen is scar tissue. you want new epithelial cells." you actually do want new collagen to be laid down, along with new elastin fibers. the difference is that its happening during "regeneration" and not "repair" so it won't form scar tissue.

 

I know, but I've tried it before, for like a year after my dermabrasion. I also tried it again last year when I was still breaking out and getting new scarring. It did NOT keep me from scarring from breakouts and had no physical effect on the appearance of any existing scars. I eventually went up to 3x the recommended dose. I was speaking to my doctor about this and that is when he told me that reason.

 

What were the special diet for those burn patients anyway? My problem with supplements is that I don't think they necessarily get absorbed.

....The difference when doing Fraxel is that the injury to your skin is microscopic. This microscopic wounding of the dermis does two things:

1. First the thermal injury denatures the (old or scarred) tissue.

2. Second your body responds by "regenerating" the denatured collagen, elastin, and dermal skin cells.

So over the 6-7 months of your Fraxel treatment the skin is in a constant state of "regeneration." It is constantly laying down new healthy tissue. This is called "regeneration." ....

Skimpy - Is there literature on this concept of 'regeneration' by Fraxel? And does it suggest scar tissue can be replaced by normal tissue? Some doctors/scientists argue this is biologically impossible (without genetic or biological manipulation like stem cell or Recell etc).

Skimpywimpy- do you have any idea if fraxel breakouts can be prevented with antibiotics? I agree that the culprit must be bacteria that got in from the microscopic wounds (I had to use the blue die). I got them after my first fraxel, although they look a lot better almost 5 days post treatment. I'm surprised they don't give that as a standard protocol (assuming it works)

My doctor prescribed a cream typically used for people with Rosocea, called Finacea. I am supposed to use it as soon as the stinging goes away, which for me is about 4-5 days after treatment. It really helps with the post-Fraxel breakouts, which for me are mostly minor inflammed pores, and (knock on wood) NOT cystic fare-ups.

FYI, I had my 4th Fraxel on Friday, and got a ton of the whiteheads this time (for some reason, I have a different reaction with each treatment). I tried a little on one spot this morning, but my skin is still a little too red/peeling/inflamed for it. Probably I will be fine to use the Finacea once a day starting tomorrow night, and then can progress to 2 x a day by the end of the week.

You still don't get it. In the case of Fraxel, it has nothing to do with stopping scars from forming. If you get a wound infection (acne or otherwise) that damages the dermis, then it causes scarring. If you get larger cysts that ruptures, then Vitamin C and protein will not do much if anything to stop such scarring. That's due to the nature of macroscopic injury and "healing by primary and secondary intention" aka "repair" aka "scarring."

So you will still get a scar. It might heal quicker or a little better than it would have otherwise, but still scar. (Ironically, faster healing leads to greater scarring. Look it up, children are actually more prone to scars than the elderly. Although the elderly run the risk of having wounds not heal at all!)

The reason burn victims need protein and Vitamin C is due to the extensiveness of their skin injury. They have large areas where the skin is completely burned away. This leaves them open to infection and extensive scarring.

[AS AN ASIDE: Many people on here experience post Fraxel breakouts. Most of them, and even their doctors, think it's because of the moisturizers they are using. This is wrong. The Fraxel, given at higher levels, temporarily disrupts your skin integrity. This creates irritation (milia) and contributes to infection (acne). Within a few days the MTZs are healed, skin integrity returns, and the infection and irritations start to go down. I'm glad to see that the blue dye has been done away with. Srubbing freshly wounded skin is a sure way to cause irritation and infection!]

The difference when doing Fraxel is that the injury to your skin is microscopic. This microscopic wounding of the dermis does two things:

1. First the thermal injury denatures the (old or scarred) tissue.

2. Second your body responds by "regenerating" the denatured collagen, elastin, and dermal skin cells.

So over the 6-7 months of your Fraxel treatment the skin is in a constant state of "regeneration." It is constantly laying down new healthy tissue. This is called "regeneration."

Normally the only other time your skin would regenerate from a wound is if you got a small paper cut. Ever notice how the skin heals perfectly after a paper cut? A similar process is occurring after Fraxel. Though with Fraxel it is happening with a closed wound, much smaller in diameter, but much deeper into the skin.

However, unlike a paper cut the wounding is not happening in just one spot. It is happening over your entire face, 15-20% each month! That is much more than normal! So you need to make sure your body has the extra Vitamin C and protein to regenerate itself.

Just think how much money you spent on the treatment itself. How much extra is it to buy a jar of capsules of vitamin C, a few jars of whey protein, and take a bit each day?

Sure, what the hell. I'll give it another go, but seriously, NOTHING has ever helped me. I truly have the most difficult skin to deal with. My grandmother used to get these large boils behind her ears and she had really oily skin. Somehow, whe that transmitted genetically, the acne became cystic. One of my cysrs behind my ear was so large they had to cut it out and have it sent to a lab for testing. They said if they had left it in it could have gone to my brain!

I am always dedicated when I put myself toward following a regimen, so when I say something hasn;t worked, it;s because it truly hasn't. Now, dermabrasion creates a wound too. Why didn't the vitamins help that? It shouldn't be that hared to understand, and should have made a difference.

 

Wow. You missed my point yet again. Dermabrasion creates a MACROSCOPIC WOUND. I'm not even going to explain it again :rolleyes:

....The difference when doing Fraxel is that the injury to your skin is microscopic. This microscopic wounding of the dermis does two things:

1. First the thermal injury denatures the (old or scarred) tissue.

2. Second your body responds by "regenerating" the denatured collagen, elastin, and dermal skin cells.

So over the 6-7 months of your Fraxel treatment the skin is in a constant state of "regeneration." It is constantly laying down new healthy tissue. This is called "regeneration." ....

Skimpy - Is there literature on this concept of 'regeneration' by Fraxel? And does it suggest scar tissue can be replaced by normal tissue? Some doctors/scientists argue this is biologically impossible (without genetic or biological manipulation like stem cell or Recell etc).

 

Even better--there are histology slides. So you can actually see it happen. I'm sure you've seen them. Use Google images.

Regeneration of scar tissue is biologically "improbable" without some kind of intervention first, like Fraxel, chemicals, or other tx. And even then you are looking at a process, not spontaneous and complete renewal.

Of course Fraxel is relatively new and there have not been randomized studies, NNT studies, etc. But it's obvious from the pictures on their website, and the posts on this board that most everyone will get some amelioration of scarring.

You should be more concerned with the parameters of your own treatment, as well as making sure you take protein and vitamin C. Exercise won't hurt either.

ylem i hope you take protein and vitamin c. getting deep settings is good, but you also need to make sure your body can make new collagen as best as possible.

My derm told me injesting supplements won't migrate to the skin for any physical effect.

 

You really do need to be taking extra vitamin C and protein. it's not some homeopathic remedy or old wives' tale. vitamin C is crucial catalyst in the collagen formation process, look it up. your body can't form collagen without it.

people who don't get vitamin C get scurvy, and guess where one of the places you see it is? the gums! so it's silly to think that ingested vitamin C isn't going to be circulated to your skin.

the protein is also important since protein and amino acids are the building blocks for new collagen and skin.

moreover, burn patients are put on special diets super-rich in vitamin C and protein. so that they can grow new skin. again, look it up.

someone once tried to argue against this advice by saying, "you shouldn't be concerned about new collagen. collagen is scar tissue. you want new epithelial cells." you actually do want new collagen to be laid down, along with new elastin fibers. the difference is that its happening during "regeneration" and not "repair" so it won't form scar tissue.

 

I know, but I've tried it before, for like a year after my dermabrasion. I also tried it again last year when I was still breaking out and getting new scarring. It did NOT keep me from scarring from breakouts and had no physical effect on the appearance of any existing scars. I eventually went up to 3x the recommended dose. I was speaking to my doctor about this and that is when he told me that reason.

 

What were the special diet for those burn patients anyway? My problem with supplements is that I don't think they necessarily get absorbed.

 

Your body dumps extra vitamin C, unless it needs it for something like excessive skin repair. Protein dumping can occur too, but I wouldn't worry about that. It only happens in people with stomach injuries or after surgery. Unless you have a special condition, then both protein and Vitamin C will get absorbed as needed.

[AS AN ASIDE: Many people on here experience post Fraxel breakouts. Most of them, and even their doctors, think it's because of the moisturizers they are using. This is wrong. The Fraxel, given at higher levels, temporarily disrupts your skin integrity. This creates irritation (milia) and contributes to infection (acne). Within a few days the MTZs are healed, skin integrity returns, and the infection and irritations start to go down. I'm glad to see that the blue dye has been done away with. Srubbing freshly wounded skin is a sure way to cause irritation and infection!]

Skimpywimpy- do you have any idea if fraxel breakouts can be prevented with antibiotics? I agree that the culprit must be bacteria that got in from the microscopic wounds (I had to use the blue die). I got them after my first fraxel, although they look a lot better almost 5 days post treatment. I'm surprised they don't give that as a standard protocol (assuming it works)

 

Yes, you should have prophylactic prescriptions for an antibiotic like Minocin and an antiviral like Acyclovir. The first for acne and the latter for cold sores. The minocin is cheap even without insurance. Not sure about Acyclovir, I think it's still under patent.

...Regeneration of scar tissue is biologically "improbable" without some kind of intervention first, like Fraxel, chemicals, or other tx. And even then you are looking at a process, not spontaneous and complete renewal.

Of course Fraxel is relatively new and there have not been randomized studies, NNT studies, etc. But it's obvious from the pictures on their website, and the posts on this board that most everyone will get some amelioration of scarring....

Certainly Fraxel seems to improve the appearance of some scars, but I'm not sure whether this improvement is through the regeneration of full normal skin structure in place of scar tissue, or through creating more and better organised collagen (but still technically scar tissue). Perhaps it's both? (And maybe more. It might also work like subcision by breaking connective scar tissue to create a more even surface tension).

Here's a discussion on the differences between regeneration and repair: http://medweb.bham.ac.uk/http/depts/path/T...ir/healing.html

"The idea of regeneration implies that there are cells left to regenerate. For example, if there is loss of a large area of epidermis then its central regions will heal by scar formation rather than regeneration, since the rate of migration of new epidermal cells from the edges of the wound is limited and scarring will proceed before they are able to cover the damaged area".

I haven't seen histology or papers on scar treatment by Fraxel (except one on hypopigmentation) but, from what I have read, scar tissue does not have the capacity to regenerate. So in the case of scars, a wound might be microscopic but still isolated from normal regenerative cells by remaining scar tissue.

So a couple of questions to those with medical interest/knowledge: Do 'regenerative' skin cells (fibroplasts?) operate at any depth or only in the epidermis? If so, would deeper Fraxel penetration increase the chance of accessing more viable regeneration cells in scars?

Just thinking out loud (again). :eh:

I'll try it for my 'microscopic' injuries, and see if that makes a difference. If it doesn't then my skepticism is not unwarranted by any means.

BTW, I had my 1st fraxel today and my doc said he did 55 mj level 8 on me. But, I am not at all red, and only slightly swollen, nothing at all like the last time. Should I be more red and swollen at this level, or was my doc actually doing a lower setting then what he was telling me.?

Yes, you should have prophylactic prescriptions for an antibiotic like Minocin and an antiviral like Acyclovir. The first for acne and the latter for cold sores. The minocin is cheap even without insurance. Not sure about Acyclovir, I think it's still under patent.

Acyclovir would only be needed if you GET cold sores, correct? i've never had one, so wouldn't expect that i'd have the virus that causes them, etc.

the breakouts i'm having are so so minor -- not cystic in any way -- they are just small pus lesions that dry up really fast and literally flake off. is that what everyone else is getting, for those of you who are? i doubt these would scar at all so i'm not really concerned (plus since i'm getting more treatments i'm not so concerned). i can't take antibiotics at all because of being on them for so many years...they don't work for me in the least, if i'm sick or anything, so i avoid them at all costs.

if you do take antibiotics, remember to take a course of probiotics afterwards! very very important to get your body back in balance and able to take care of itself...

Yes, you should have prophylactic prescriptions for an antibiotic like Minocin and an antiviral like Acyclovir. The first for acne and the latter for cold sores. The minocin is cheap even without insurance. Not sure about Acyclovir, I think it's still under patent.

Acyclovir would only be needed if you GET cold sores, correct? i've never had one, so wouldn't expect that i'd have the virus that causes them, etc.

the breakouts i'm having are so so minor -- not cystic in any way -- they are just small pus lesions that dry up really fast and literally flake off. is that what everyone else is getting, for those of you who are? i doubt these would scar at all so i'm not really concerned (plus since i'm getting more treatments i'm not so concerned). i can't take antibiotics at all because of being on them for so many years...they don't work for me in the least, if i'm sick or anything, so i avoid them at all costs.

if you do take antibiotics, remember to take a course of probiotics afterwards! very very important to get your body back in balance and able to take care of itself...

 

What are probotics?

You can eat yogurt or take a pill. Antibiotics kill all the bacteria in your gut indiscriminately. So you lose the acne causing bacteria in your skin, but also the ones in your intestine that help you digest. Probiotics help get it back to normal. I don't think it's too important to worry about that from a short course of prophylactic antibiotics. The main priobiotics are acidophilus and thermophyllis bacteria. There are a few more.

Gents, questions,

I had my second frax 7 days ago..

I am still some what red ... only 30MJ .. next is 40 ... am I to expect to be redder for alonger period of time as the MJ's go up?

You can eat yogurt or take a pill. Antibiotics kill all the bacteria in your gut indiscriminately. So you lose the acne causing bacteria in your skin, but also the ones in your intestine that help you digest. Probiotics help get it back to normal. I don't think it's too important to worry about that from a short course of prophylactic antibiotics. The main priobiotics are acidophilus and thermophyllis bacteria. There are a few more.

Thanks Skimpywimpy.

resurectionisneeded - yes I stayed red longer when my MJ's increased. At 65mjs I've stayed slightly red for 2 weeks! I'm light skinned.

my 4th session is coming up sooooon.

i was wondering, how soon after fraxel can i do microdermabrassion(i've had it done before and i found it very effective getting rid of red marks).

Skimpy, thanks for the info on vitamin C and protein for collagen rebuilding. Do you think adding topical vitamin C - Cellex-C or something - would help? What else would you recommend for collagen rebuilding?

And if anyone else knows, I'm using Retin-A and might be doing fraxel soon. What do the docs say about that? From previous posts some say it doesn't matter and others want you to stop for a few weeks before.

anyone get good results using the fraxel laser to get rid of dark marks/discoloration on dark skinned people

plz someone answer this^

and zup my doctor told me i had to use retin a for 4 weeks than get off it for 2 weeks and than go ahead with the fraxel

i plan on doing my first in January, i would do it earlier but i got to leave for basic june 26th and i am not coming back till around late nov.

How much are you guys paying for these treatments? And is using Retin-A for 4 weeks really necessary before treatment?

How well does this help with post-acne bumps? I have a few of those on my nose!!!

hey guys, i ve been reading the posts about fraxel lately and i went for a consultation about it. Currently i am on accutane and i have about 2 more months on it, and i know i have to wait about a year to get it done but the good thing is that they have a summer special that i locked, which is 6 full face fraxel sr 1540 for $3000, and she said that i will be glad by doing it , and there will be a lot of improvement , since i dont have severe acne scars, just some shallow rolling scars.

BTW the consultant lady had some acne scars and she said that she had 3 fraxels done and her complexion was really nice, so i cant wait for this year to pass.

If any one has any comments, suggestions, questions about where this is, let me now. later

im sorry, is not the palomar lux 1540, is the fraxel SR 1500. they offer both, but is there any difference?

fraxel can go deeper than the palomar (at high settings which most of us get). fraxel also is scanning technology rather than stamping. scanning is much better.

topical vitamins probably won't do much. injections are sketchy too. the top layer of skin is dead and impermeable to most. most vitamin c is in the form of an acid so it might even irritate you. but if its doesn't irritate then it wont do any harm.

you want to ingest *most* nutrients so they can be metabolized and carried in the bloodstream to anywhere in the body. but topical vitamins propably wont hurt (just your wallet .

Hey guys!

Does anyone know of a good doctor in Brisbane/Gold Coast and whether there are rebates available in Queensland (seems only NSW and VIC have rebates).

Thanks!