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PS; Don't want to give wrong impression about nurse. I like her. My complaint was mostly about me in that I forgot to stop taking NSAIDs which makes me bleed very easily. And, I could tell she had been trained to stop if there was pin point bleeding. I was hoping that she would spot treat scarred areas that did not bleed, but she was trained to stop.
it's performed by an experienced and very well trained esthetician
This is who a spa type place uses (even if it's headed by a doctor) and why you are charged less.
I know that the Fraxel isn't an ablative laser, that is the reason I am having it done but it can still do damage. There was a thread on here recently about someone who said their face was ripped up due to the Fraxel.
I'm a big scardy cat and would never trust even a nurse much less an esthetician (something I once trained to be) to use a laser on my skin. I know that might just be me but I am willing to pay a higher price for my Doctors experience and medical schooling with these types of procedures. Good to hear you had good results though. My scars are moderate to severe and varied all over my face so I want a doctor who will be as agressive as possible. If I was in your place and had only very mild scarring It might not be as important to me.
MZ: I'm on day 3 after my treatment (on wed, today being Saturday) and I went out today looking fine after taking a warm shower and letting the flaking come off if it was ready. I put on some foundation to cover the redness. By this evening my face isn't swollen much at all (not noticable to anyone but me) Of course I still have microswelling (which I LOVE) but I will be back to work tomorrow without anyone even noticing. I only have major swelling for 3 days at the most.
Trouble: I might ask my doctor to use more variable mj's at my 5th treatment in 3 weeks. I'm a little afraid to ask him to do this as I know he's been trained very well and is in contact with the Reliant people all the time. It never hurts to ask right?
Good luck with your fraxel!
MZ: I'm on day 3 after my treatment (on wed, today being Saturday) and I went out today looking fine after taking a warm shower and letting the flaking come off if it was ready. I put on some foundation to cover the redness. By this evening my face isn't swollen much at all (not noticable to anyone but me) Of course I still have microswelling (which I LOVE) but I will be back to work tomorrow without anyone even noticing. I only have major swelling for 3 days at the most.
Today is day 3 (thurs.-sun.). I'm still alittle swollen. I peeled alittle today due to applying Aquaphor last night (helped w/ peeling and lessen discomfort). I still see redness underneathe the skin. I think you heal faster than me. I don't usually peel until day 6. I'm sure I can peel sooner if I force it but I think it's best to leave it alone. I just reapplied Aquaphor and rubbed on alittle bit of fish oil (ew!). I will leave it on all day today.
Aquafor is to occlusive for my skin. I break out very easily. I used a MD forte moisturizer that the doc gave me samples of and a Replenix Serum with caffeine and other good stuff. I love the serum but it's expensive. It's lightweight and I don't feel like it will clog my pores. I didn't peel that much this time. It's been less and less every time and also I recover from the swelling faster with each treatment too.
I am still a bit red today but nothing to bad, it's the more bronzed look which I love.
Good luck and continued good healing.
JJP, I notice the same thing, that flaking decreases with more treamtent, I had none last time, but I also used aquafor for first time, so that introduced a new variable. Did you report any oozing? I have had none, yet Troubled implied that it is to be expected (I think he did, anyway).
I am a little confused about your settings, as it seems that level 10 at 40 mjs is very high, yet your total KJ seems low by my standards. If I recall, you are seeing a nice benefit. Right? I remain disappointed with progresss to date, but know that it takes time.
I have a question for people with ice pick scars and open/large pores,has fraxel made it worse?.I keep hearing that since its skin resufacing it takes the top layers off and your pores become lager and more visible along with the ice pick scar?.My face is mainly open/large pores and one ice pick scar i wouldnt want those areas to get worse.Im trying to treat some atrophic scarring and uneven skin tone mainly but wouldnt want those ares to get worse.
And also i have been given Retin A and hydroquinone 4% just once in the night- for 1 month and then to do the procedure (fraxel 1),i was wondering if its enough preparation.Im very light brown in skin tone (Asian).I trust my doctor but i live in the middle east where its 50 degrees i dont want to end up with hyperpigmentation,just to be on the safe side if anyone has any input on prep.
Aquafor is to occlusive for my skin. I break out very easily. I used a MD forte moisturizer that the doc gave me samples of and a Replenix Serum with caffeine and other good stuff. I love the serum but it's expensive. It's lightweight and I don't feel like it will clog my pores. I didn't peel that much this time. It's been less and less every time and also I recover from the swelling faster with each treatment too.I am still a bit red today but nothing to bad, it's the more bronzed look which I love.
Good luck and continued good healing.
Yeah it's so sticky. I took a nap and it got all over my pillow (might of rubbed some dead skin off. Ew!). I just gently washed it off and applied utterly smooth. I didn't break out though. I don't like MD Forte Moisturizer and I regret purchasing it for $50. It is so thick and does not absorb into skin well. Also it burns on skin (makes it red) especially when is all sensitive after Fraxel txt.. I really want to try Cetephil (haven't tried it yet). I like Aloe Vera too.
I always peel alot for some reason. I know I peeled less on the 3rd treatment (compare to 1st 2 treatments). Think I might of been use to level 25. This time is diff. (@ level 30) and I have lots of dead skin. I'm still swollen but I have a feeling that my face will be more normal by tomorrow.
My doc. also mentioned that I have sensitive skin. Maybe I ooz b/c my skin is thin?
JJP, I notice the same thing, that flaking decreases with more treamtent, I had none last time, but I also used aquafor for first time, so that introduced a new variable. Did you report any oozing? I have had none, yet Troubled implied that it is to be expected (I think he did, anyway).I am a little confused about your settings, as it seems that level 10 at 40 mjs is very high, yet your total KJ seems low by my standards. If I recall, you are seeing a nice benefit. Right? I remain disappointed with progresss to date, but know that it takes time.
Billy,
I think you may have misunderstood my post. Healing response can differ greatly between individuals so it would not necessarily be considered abnormal if your skin did not ooze after treatments. As you probably already know Reliant markets Fraxel as a no downtime procedure with no weeping or oozing compared with ablative lasers but as we all know at higher fluences that is far from reality. Oozing to me is simply a marker that the MTZ's are large and abundant enough to excite a an inflammatory response deep within the skin which is leaking out from the ablation points. This is considered a good sign as it is the beginning of a complex chain of events that ultimately leads to more collagen production as the body attempts to heal itself. Technically the stratum corneum is supposed to remain intact after Fraxel which can inhibit weeping. That is why Reliant can legally market Fraxel as a non ablative procedure even though we all know it encourages sloughing which IS ablative. That said, weeping is not a reliable indicator of future results.
Hi guys, This is day 2 after my treatment, and I'm kicking myself I didn't ice it more the first two days. It didn't hurt that much this time, and it didn't seem too bad on Friday when I came home. Needless to say, I'll probably be swollen for 5 or 6 days now. How long do you normally ice your face after your procedures?
Hi guys, This is day 2 after my treatment, and I'm kicking myself I didn't ice it more the first two days. It didn't hurt that much this time, and it didn't seem too bad on Friday when I came home. Needless to say, I'll probably be swollen for 5 or 6 days now. How long do you normally ice your face after your procedures?
Cubs,
A great way is to fill Styrofoam cups with water and freeze them for future use. Gently dab the ice over the swollen areas no more then 5 minutes 2x daily. As the ice begins to melt you can simply peel away the edges of the cup. Just be careful not to over do it. Direct ice is one of the fastest ways to reduce swelling but some people prefer a bag of frozen peas which would be less cold but probably less effective as well.
I just had my first Fraxel 2 done on Friday at the Henry Ford center in Michigan (from Dr. Ozog - anyone try him?) and I don't think, after the first day, that the downtime has been too bad. I haven't experienced much swelling at all (although the scars look more filled in), but everything is considerably redder.
I'm slightly confused about this business about different levels. What are the advantages/disadvantages of higher levels? I understand they go deeper, but what's the downside? More down time, or is there more risk as well if the doctor doesn't think its necessary?
Furthermore, how do you know what your level is? I guess just ask?
I just had my first Fraxel 2 done on Friday at the Henry Ford center in Michigan (from Dr. Ozog - anyone try him?) and I don't think, after the first day, that the downtime has been too bad. I haven't experienced much swelling at all (although the scars look more filled in), but everything is considerably redder.I'm slightly confused about this business about different levels. What are the advantages/disadvantages of higher levels? I understand they go deeper, but what's the downside? More down time, or is there more risk as well if the doctor doesn't think its necessary?
Furthermore, how do you know what your level is? I guess just ask?
I have heard of him. I am from Michigan as well and have been going to Dr. Mok in Shelby Twp, I just had my second of five Fraxels last Friday. They use a Fraxel 1 laser and I am happy thus far. However, If I need more treatments after this series, I am going to look into the newer laser. I really like them and hope they end up upgrading if I continue on with another 3 to 5 treatments. I tried to get in touch with Dr. Ozog's office when I first looked into this procedure, but no one from Dr. Ozog's office got back to me. I am glad to hear that your experience went well. If you don't mind telling me, how much do they charge for the Fraxel/s? Thanks~! Annde
Frozen peas work great. I apply in different spots while driving home and use over the next 6 hours, with a few breaks to refreeze, and moving the location frequently.
Billbrsky, I think it is wise to be conservative on first treatment to see how you tolerate and guage downtime. After that, I think it is wise to ramp up and have input into settings based on what you learn here. Docs have an incentive to be unagressive in that they don't want complications (most importantly) and don't mind have repeat customers (secondly) because the treatment was not especially effective. Moreover, they are still learning how best to treat acne scar patients with Fraxel. It is human nature to err on the side of caution, so I try to push the envelope a bit. Fraxel has been fine, but not great for me. I wish there were more people documenting great results. It seems like we are all works in progress.
I don't usually ice my face after treatment. I did the first time when I freaked out at how swollen I was I did a few times but it really didn't do much for the swelling. I know by now that I will have 2 to 3 days of extreme swelling and them BAM! on day 4 I look almost normal again. Of course I have the microswelling.....if we could bottle the effects of microswelling and have that effect every morning I would be seriously happy with my skin. My skin looks so much better when it's slightly swollen. Almost all of my scars disappear and only the deepest scars are noticable but I know by tomorrow night the microswelling will disappear and I will be back to normal.
So far 'I' don't see much of an improvement (my doc and nurses do) BUT I still have great hope from his 4th treatment and my 5th procedure that I will have quite a bit of collegen producing.... as Billyboy said........we are works of art in progress.
I think after my 3rd or 4th smoothbeam laser treatments I got discouraged like this but in the end I was happy with the results. I am hoping it's the same for the Fraxel. I still think I will have to have at least 2 or 3 more treatments to acheive semi normal skin that I will be satisfied with.
I like the MD Forte skin, it doesn't totally absorb but that's the point when you are on the first two days of healing. I don't care for the smell at all but Aquaphor is entirely to sticky and that stuff never absorbes unlike the MD which absorbs quite a bit but still leaves your face moist. I only use it on days 1 to 3 and then switch to the Cetaphil moisturizer with spf in it.
I have a question about the what others have experienced during their peeling process after a Fraxel. I read that when you peel, it is similar to a sunburn peel. My skin is not flaking off in large pieces like it did when I had a sunburn (sorry if this sounds gross). At first I did not think it was peeling at all because it is subtle, but it seems to be peeling and almost has the consistency of dandruff. It is now day 4 counting Friday, the day I had my 2nd Fraxel. Any thoughts here are appreciated. Thanks!
I have a question about the what others have experienced during their peeling process after a Fraxel. I read that when you peel, it is similar to a sunburn peel. My skin is not flaking off in large pieces like it did when I had a sunburn (sorry if this sounds gross). At first I did not think it was peeling at all because it is subtle, but it seems to be peeling and almost has the consistency of dandruff. It is now day 4 counting Friday, the day I had my 2nd Fraxel. Any thoughts here are appreciated. Thanks!
Hi annde1229, My appointment was on Friday, too. I wouldn't call it peeling, it is flaking off like dandruff. It usually isn't that noticable until I try to put on make up, and then it looks terrible! Hopefully most of it will be gone in the next few days.
Troubled, I would appreciate your input. My next fraxel is this Wed and it was set up to include a fraxel rep. Due to miscommunication she can no longer be there as she is traveling. Part of me wants to get this over before spring and outdoor stuff and while I am healing from my back and rotator cuff surgery. Plus, I had already arranged schedule to be down for a few days.
On the other hand, the whole idea was fraxel rep was willing to be there for a live one on one training, with me as patient. So, I saw this as an opportunity to get expert input about settings for my situation and raise the calibration question. Also, perhaps best application practices have evolved since my nurse was trained some time back and/or there are ways to improve her technique. So, I wanted to get this set up early so my 3 remaining treatments would enjoy the benefit of the reps expertise.
Anyway, I am trying to decide whether to go forward on Wed without fraxel rep and have the fraxel rep for the next treatment, or to postpone to another yet to to be determined day. I faced a simlar decison in Dec and went ahead without fraxel rep.
I know you can't decide this for me, but can you suggest any questions for nurse to pose to fraxel rep so that I get best possilbe result if I go forward on Wed. Also, I recall you mentioning that fraxel may induce collagen by shocking a protein into replication mode. Accoringly, you expressed a counter intuitive opinion that treatments should be spaced together more closely ( as soon as fully healed).
Thanks so much
Troubled, I would appreciate your input. My next fraxel is this Wed and it was set up to include a fraxel rep. Due to miscommunication she can no longer be there as she is traveling. Part of me wants to get this over before spring and outdoor stuff and while I am healing from my back and rotator cuff surgery. Plus, I had already arranged schedule to be down for a few days.On the other hand, the whole idea was fraxel rep was willing to be there for a live one on one training, with me as patient. So, I saw this as an opportunity to get expert input about settings for my situation and raise the calibration question. Also, perhaps best application practices have evolved since my nurse was trained some time back and/or there are ways to improve her technique. So, I wanted to get this set up early so my 3 remaining treatments would enjoy the benefit of the reps expertise.
Anyway, I am trying to decide whether to go forward on Wed without fraxel rep and have the fraxel rep for the next treatment, or to postpone to another yet to to be determined day. I faced a simlar decison in Dec and went ahead without fraxel rep.
I know you can't decide this for me, but can you suggest any questions for nurse to pose to fraxel rep so that I get best possilbe result if I go forward on Wed. Also, I recall you mentioning that fraxel may induce collagen by shocking a protein into replication mode. Accoringly, you expressed a counter intuitive opinion that treatments should be spaced together more closely ( as soon as fully healed).
Thanks so much
Billy,
Ultimately I think your concerns come down to one question. Given the extremely aggressive treatment protocol you have received with the first and now second round of Fraxel why such a modest level of improvement?
Unfortunately there are many more complex factors at work then simply treatment settings. I wish I could offer you more insight then that but I don't believe you can safely go much more aggressive with your treatments unless you move on to Fraxel 2.
As mentioned to Annde when she e-mailed me recently, I refer back to the medical journal I read a while ago where one physician who treated several hundred Fraxel patients observed more robust results in some of his atrophic acne scar patients by spacing Fraxel treatments 2 weeks apart. The theory behind this is that repeated tissue injury incites a greater inflammatory response subdermally ultimately leading to greater collagen induction. These observations are anecdotal at best but perhaps worth considering.
I have a feeling that if you were to have a candid discussion with the Fraxel rep she would defer to the depth limitations with the SR750. It simply does not go deep enough to equal the clinical response patients are getting with the SR1500 at higher fluences BUT clearly we would be seeing the trees but missing the forest if we didn't realize there were many more complex factors at work that complete the big picture. The below is a recap of some questions that were raised about non-responders in a recent scientific discussion. Unfortunately there are no quantifiable answers to any of them at the present time. Just speculation so we rely on the pieces of information that are available to us from what we know so far and attempt to solve the puzzle one piece at a time.
Recap:
Could there be one or more temperature dependent
variants in collagen and/or elastic
tissue or a temperature-dependent variable in the
systems responsible for the production of cytokines
and other variables such as heat shock proteins
such that some individuals respond well to a
given thermal load administered in a standard,
non-ablative treatment?
Or, could apparently
similar individuals have protein structures or
other biological subsystems that are relatively
thermal-stable with the range of thermal loads
imposed during typical non-ablative treatment
and so theyre poor responders?
Could there be some individuals whose recurrent
regenerative processes are called into action by a
moderate thermal insult of the type that we
ordinarily give, while other, similar-appearing
people are thermal-stable or even thermal-resistant
or are thermophiles and are condemned to
existence as non-responders?
I have a question about the what others have experienced during their peeling process after a Fraxel. I read that when you peel, it is similar to a sunburn peel. My skin is not flaking off in large pieces like it did when I had a sunburn (sorry if this sounds gross). At first I did not think it was peeling at all because it is subtle, but it seems to be peeling and almost has the consistency of dandruff. It is now day 4 counting Friday, the day I had my 2nd Fraxel. Any thoughts here are appreciated. Thanks!
hey this is how im peeling... Annde, i also got my fraxel done on jan 5th.. and this is what my skin looks like as of tonite.
after my first treatment of fraxel 2 (40mjs, level 7, 23%)... i see that the swelling helped the scars disappear but it seems like when the swelling goes down my skin is going to return to the way it was originally. Im wondering if you see results after 3 or 4 times?.... im a bit skeptical....
after my first treatment of fraxel 2 (40mjs, level 7, 23%)... i see that the swelling helped the scars disappear but it seems like when the swelling goes down my skin is going to return to the way it was originally. Im wondering if you see results after 3 or 4 times?.... im a bit skeptical....
Raging,
It is a slow process and an emotional roller coaster for many due to the micro swelling. Some see results after a few treatments but for moderate to severe scarring 5 or more are generally recommended. Collagen builds very slowly over time and generally continues for many months after your last Fraxel treatment.
Good luck
Troubled, you are awesomely helpful. Do you think application technique could be a major factor? I don't think so, but am curious as to your thoughts.
I have benefited from fraxel, just less than expected, so I am not completely condemmed to be a non responder. Great skin rejuvenation. I have noticed nice improvement in shallow rolling scars. I have a dozen or so scarred pores that are both shallow and narrow in central face. They are so small, I have to get close to mirror to analyze. I notice no improvement on these nor on my excision scars. That is my biggest fraxel disappointment, which I use as a benchmark for measuring success (becasue they are are on central face and easy to assess), even though they are tiny scars. In fact, they may not even be visible to most peolpe unless they are right in my face. I really thought they would just fill in and go away with fraxel.
Should I consider not using the zimmer cooling device to accentuate thermal injury? I am sure I can handle the pain and perhaps this might increase the inflammatory response to stimulate collagen protein production. Any thoughts?
Also, is there any normative data as to standard time frames for collagen induction. I am sure the data would be sparse and subjective, but I was looking for an algorythm such as final result is achieved in linear fashion over say 5 months ( ie, 20% per month following treatment), or is it going to be more of increasing (decreasing) function of time where the improvement is lower (larger) in the early months. I am guessing the subjective observation would suggest that the improvement is tail end weighted, but that precise cell regeneration measurements might suggest otherwise.
Thanks again
Troubled, you are awesomely helpful. Do you think application technique could be a major factor? I don't think so, but am curious as to your thoughts.I have benefited from fraxel, just less than expected, so I am not completely condemmed to be a non responder. Great skin rejuvenation. I have noticed nice improvement in shallow rolling scars. I have a dozen or so scarred pores that are both shallow and narrow in central face. They are so small, I have to get close to mirror to analyze. I notice no improvement on these nor on my excision scars. That is my biggest fraxel disappointment, which I use as a benchmark for measuring success (becasue they are are on central face and easy to assess), even though they are tiny scars. In fact, they may not even be visible to most peolpe unless they are right in my face. I really thought they would just fill in and go away with fraxel.
Should I consider not using the zimmer cooling device to accentuate thermal injury? I am sure I can handle the pain and perhaps this might increase the inflammatory response to stimulate collagen protein production. Any thoughts?
Also, is there any normative data as to standard time frames for collagen induction. I am sure the data would be sparse and subjective, but I was looking for an algorythm such as final result is achieved in linear fashion over say 5 months ( ie, 20% per month following treatment), or is it going to be more of increasing (decreasing) function of time where the improvement is lower (larger) in the early months. I am guessing the subjective observation would suggest that the improvement is tail end weighted, but that precise cell regeneration measurements might suggest otherwise.
Thanks again
Billy,
I will see if I can look back into some of my past e-mail and dig up the e-mail address of the Clinical Manager of Reliant's Fraxel Clinic. I am sure if that information is available she would have it.
Also, there is an entire series of videos used to train physicians and estheticians. I am probably violating some type of user agreement by doing this but here's where you can watch them. I haven't had a chance to check out any of them myself however clinical training videos are usually excellent sources to perfect technique.