Melisconca

You mentioned other boards reporting poor results from fraxel. What is the website address? Any thoughts on why or pictures on that site? Man, it is so hard to know whether fraxel will work well enough to justify cost and downtime.

So to get the best coverage, results and fewer treatments we should stay in between energy level 20-30?

im also curious about the settings. according to protocol standards, doctors arent supposed to go above a setting of 20, yet i hear a lot of people here who have gone over that limit.

i will be having fraxel done soon, but am not sure if i want to go above 20, because im asian so i dont want to risk any long term damages to my skin..

So to get the best coverage, results and fewer treatments we should stay in between energy level 20-30?

 

Its kind of a catch-22. the deeper the treatment the less the coverage density. the greater the coverge density the less the penetration.

so it seems like for deeper scars you'd need like 15 treatments to get the coverage someone with light scars would get from 5.

 

So to get the best coverage, results and fewer treatments we should stay in between energy level 20-30?

 

Its kind of a catch-22. the deeper the treatment the less the coverage density. the greater the coverge density the less the penetration.

so it seems like for deeper scars you'd need like 15 treatments to get the coverage someone with light scars would get from 5.

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does fraxel helps remove red,brown, and purple spot from acne too? it would be nice if it works both scars and red spots...

Would it be possible or fairly comfortable to drive two hours, have fraxel, then drive home??? The nearest Dr. who has the fraxel is located around 120 miles from where I live. I would really like to try this at least once to see if I could benefit from a series of treatments but didn't really think it was possible to drive 2 hours, have the fraxel, then drive 2 hours home. I also have a child and would most likely have to pick up from school which would involve getting out of the car and walking up to the school. Would I look scary after the fraxel and would I have the stamina to drive home and carry on daily things? I am seriously considering it. I have scheduled an erbium yag peel 20-30 microns but if I had a dr in the area who has a fraxel, I would have tried it long ago. Please advise. Thanks in advance.

 

I have driven home (a two hour drive) after each of my four fraxels with no problems. I took the minimum of pain meds. The derms office put me in a room for about an hour after the treatments and keeps applying cold packs to me. Then I get up and they make me tea/coffee, and I drink gallons of water. Then I go wash my face and put on a tiny bit of makeup. By this time the meds have almost warn off. I have brought a light lunch with me so I eat this with more gallons of water. They assess me, and let me go usually about 1 1/2 after treatment. Sometimes I go for a walk around the block a couple of times. I'm in a strange town so no one knows me and i don't look too goofy yet.

I have never found it to be a big deal. Just be prepared to hang around the office. I have small ice packs in my car in the cooler, and I apply these while driving. I actually kind of tie them on. It's not a big deal.

Each time I have returned home, there has been some reason I have had to go out in public right away. No one stared at me. It's not really until later in the evening or the next day that the swelling gets bad.

Peach Pie

im also curious about the settings. according to protocol standards, doctors arent supposed to go above a setting of 20, yet i hear a lot of people here who have gone over that limit.

i will be having fraxel done soon, but am not sure if i want to go above 20, because im asian so i dont want to risk any long term damages to my skin..

 

I am Asian too. I went up to 18 but no damge so far. My skin is back to normal. I'm going for at least 20 on the 2nd treatment.

 

Would it be possible or fairly comfortable to drive two hours, have fraxel, then drive home??? The nearest Dr. who has the fraxel is located around 120 miles from where I live. I would really like to try this at least once to see if I could benefit from a series of treatments but didn't really think it was possible to drive 2 hours, have the fraxel, then drive 2 hours home. I also have a child and would most likely have to pick up from school which would involve getting out of the car and walking up to the school. Would I look scary after the fraxel and would I have the stamina to drive home and carry on daily things? I am seriously considering it. I have scheduled an erbium yag peel 20-30 microns but if I had a dr in the area who has a fraxel, I would have tried it long ago. Please advise. Thanks in advance.

 

I have driven home (a two hour drive) after each of my four fraxels with no problems. I took the minimum of pain meds. The derms office put me in a room for about an hour after the treatments and keeps applying cold packs to me. Then I get up and they make me tea/coffee, and I drink gallons of water. Then I go wash my face and put on a tiny bit of makeup. By this time the meds have almost warn off. I have brought a light lunch with me so I eat this with more gallons of water. They assess me, and let me go usually about 1 1/2 after treatment. Sometimes I go for a walk around the block a couple of times. I'm in a strange town so no one knows me and i don't look too goofy yet.

I have never found it to be a big deal. Just be prepared to hang around the office. I have small ice packs in my car in the cooler, and I apply these while driving. I actually kind of tie them on. It's not a big deal.

Each time I have returned home, there has been some reason I have had to go out in public right away. No one stared at me. It's not really until later in the evening or the next day that the swelling gets bad.

Peach Pie

 

I thought drinking water would make you more swollen? My doc. didn't give me any meds to take. I drove home right away after treatment.

 

Melisconca

You mentioned other boards reporting poor results from fraxel. What is the website address? Any thoughts on why or pictures on that site? Man, it is so hard to know whether fraxel will work well enough to justify cost and downtime.

 

Dont think its correct netiquette to post alternative boards but they arent hard to find. Why? read my post...individual biochemistry varies to the point some people wont produce any new collagen at all others in insufficient amounts the lucky ones will get some improvement. Your phrase "whether fraxel will work well enough" indicates you still dont get the point, its more a question of will your own biochemistry work well enough. A well known dictum often repeated is start off spot treating with a cheap bottle of TCA 50% for six months then rest for six months if there is improvement continue if there is none then other collagen induction, laser methods are unlikely to work either in which case its time to turn to alternative methods like fillers, punch/scalpel surgery, abrasive therapy.

 

you can post links on here. nothing rude about it at all. we all do it if the info is relevant.

i have to disagree somewhat with your statement about biochemistry. i think its more a matter of age, diet, exercise, vitamin supplementation, and overall lifestyle. we are all humans and the process of photothermolysis and collagen induction was proved histologically in many different patients during the fraxel clinical trial.

there may be a small idiosyncratic difference related genes/body chemistry but its not something that is going to prevent you from healing (unless you have diabetes or some other disease which can complicate wound healing).

that being said i think doing a test spot under your chin is a very good idea. it will give you some idea of what the treatment is like and how your recovery might be. although actually doing a scarred area at higher levels is bound to be a different experience even for the same person.

i'd stay away from TCA (aka trichloric ACID) it's like middle ages medicine compared to fraxel (IMHO). so many do-it-yourself horror stories about it on here. it's relatively cheap but this is your face! i'd rather pay the $300 for a fraxel test spot to see how i react.

so it seems like for deeper scars you'd need like 15 treatments to get the coverage someone with light scars would get from 5.

 

I believe that the pdf file was based only on one pass. I can't say for sure, but it would make sense for it to be just one pass. If you opt for the highest setting then request more passes. Multiple passes at 40 will never cover as much surface area as it would at 10 based off that pdf file, but I think the coverage would be good enough where 5 to 6 treatments would cover most of your scars and still provide good results .

I thought drinking water would make you more swollen? My doc. didn't give me any meds to take. I drove home right away after treatment.

Water is the holy grail of healing in almost any tx., procedure or surgery. It is what makes up most IV's given to surgical patients both pre op and post op. Water is usually only a problem if you have congestive heart failure or poor circulation or some other health issue.

It will not make you more swollen it's effect is the opposite. It cleanses the body and helps dilute the histamines and aids in circulation. Pineapple juice is another good one.

You do need the histamines to aid in the healing, but you don't need THAT many.

Peach Pie

 

 

Billyboy,

In answer to your questions, I have personally undergone treatments with both lasers so can speak from experience in saying there are clear differences between the 750 & 1500. Not only from the perspective of treatment results but also in terms of comfort.

From a professional standpoint, I also happen to have a medical degree so I believe I am uniquely qualified to offer some insight on the subject. My earlier post in reference to the SR1500 is based on the simple principle of atrophic scar dynamics. Most atrophic acne scars do not extend beyond the reticular dermis as this is the last layer of the dermis. (Beyond that you would be in subcutaneous fat). The 1500 allows a depth as far as 1.2 microns which means it is capable of treating much deeper acne scarring then the original Fraxel. Deeper injury = greater tissue/healing response as long as this is done in a controlled manor. As far as the original Fraxel , again there is well documented evidence about using too high of a setting. Treating at level 40 should NEVER be done with the old Fraxel unless your goal is to risk blistering and further scarring. Your doctor should already be aware of this if he owns a Fraxel laser. It is possible Blaster slipped by without injury because his Dr. used very low density at level 40 but then what would be the point?

Regarding the FDA. Who is saying the FDA did not use a blind study with a control group?

 

I read the clinical study. There was no control group. One study did have independent doctors observing and rating the before and after.

It's not that hard to get FDA approved. All they have to show is that it helps moderately. Remember during clinical trials a lot of the factors we are concerned with are not present, such as: cost/result ratio, overall affordability, finding a practitioner, finding a skilled practitioner, etc. The clinical trial is "product-centered" not "patient-centered."

Do you mean the SR1500 goes 1.2 MILLIMETERS? 1.2 microns is about 1/100 the thickness of a piece of paper (100 microns thick). From what I read the new fraxel goes about 1 mm deep and each MTZ is 100 microns wide with a spacing between them of about 200 microns.

For comparison a human hair is about 100 microns in diameter, the average pore is 60 microns in diameter. The stratum corneum (layer of dead skin) is 25 microns deep.

 

So in the PDF:

Area 1 (10 MJ) has the most amount of MTZs; it is completely covered.

Area 4 (40 MJ) has the least amount of MTZs; it is completely sparse.

Do all these test strips show one pass of the laser? Or is it one treatment with the laser?

So at the higher settings we are getting MUCH less coverage. Wow. This MIGHT explain why those with very shallow scarring who got lower settings had such good improvement. Of course their scars where light to begin with but they also got the most coverage per treatment.

Even with multiple passes at 40 MJ I doubt you could achieve the coverage of one pass at 10 MJ (according to this test strip that is).

It looks like if you had treatment at level 30-40 MJ you'd need much more than 5 treatments to get 100 percent coverage. I mean, test strip 4 looks like it covers only 5 percent of the area if that.

 

Yes I was wondering the same thing. You guys are getting very technical and some of it's going over my head but from what I have heard from my doctor (regarding the Fraxel 2 which is new technology and is an upgrade on the same machine, not a new machine) is that you can go up to a setting of 40 and also go up or down with the coverage percentage. He told me the more percentage covered the more swelling and downtime and I can tell he wants to go as agressive as he can with me. My scars are old, I'm 38 and there are about 3 deeper scars from when I had chicken pox as a child and then a lot of various size acne scars.

Was that PDF page from the Fraxel or the Fraxel 2 upgrade?

Billyboy, you said a few pages back that you were surprised my doc started me at such a high setting and now I see you are doing the Fraxel and I am doing the Fraxel 2........i'm not sure if you knew.

Good luck on Monday Shyone! I'm still in shock that you get that many meds and I have done it all without a single med :wacko: .

I'm on day three of my second treatment and my skin is a lot less swollen but still pretty red. I peeled a little yesterday in the shower but my face looks more normal now and I can put on some makeup and go to work tonight.

I drank a ton of water the first two days and I think it helped a lot. I really flushed out my kidneys but I was also taking antihistamines so I was a bit dehydrated so I needed all that water.

 

I thought drinking water would make you more swollen? My doc. didn't give me any meds to take. I drove home right away after treatment.

Water is the holy grail of healing in almost any tx., procedure or surgery. It is what makes up most IV's given to surgical patients both pre op and post op. Water is usually only a problem if you have congestive heart failure or poor circulation or some other health issue.

It will not make you more swollen it's effect is the opposite. It cleanses the body and helps dilute the histamines and aids in circulation. Pineapple juice is another good one.

You do need the histamines to aid in the healing, but you don't need THAT many.

Peach Pie

 

Yeah I drink alot of water, soymilk, and milk. I haven't dranked soda for years. I been told not to eat pinapple though.

Good luck on Monday Shyone! I'm still in shock that you get that many meds and I have done it all without a single med :wacko: .

I'm on day three of my second treatment and my skin is a lot less swollen but still pretty red. I peeled a little yesterday in the shower but my face looks more normal now and I can put on some makeup and go to work tonight.

I drank a ton of water the first two days and I think it helped a lot. I really flushed out my kidneys but I was also taking antihistamines so I was a bit dehydrated so I needed all that water.

 

Thanks! I'll let y'all know how it goes tomorrow evening...

im also curious about the settings. according to protocol standards, doctors arent supposed to go above a setting of 20, yet i hear a lot of people here who have gone over that limit.

i will be having fraxel done soon, but am not sure if i want to go above 20, because im asian so i dont want to risk any long term damages to my skin..

 

Hey man, i know we're going to the same doc so i have advice for you. Since we're asian, use that hydroquinone cream daily at least once a day then put moisturizer or aloe vera over it for hydration. Then when your 1st fraxel treatment come, get a lot of rest, then make sure you talk to the doc about how you feel and what you want, then he will give his judgement and tell you which mjs he will start you out with. i wanted to start out with 20mjs also but he refused cuz it could do more harm then positive because he did not know how my skin especially asian skill will react to the fraxel laser, so he said we will try with 16mjs first with additional passes on scarred areas since it is a full face treatment. so listen to your doc the first time man, he's the expert, just stress to him that you would want to be more aggressive eventually and so lets start out with what he feels comfortable doing at first just to see how your skin reacts to it cause everybody skin is different. Also prepare for the pain baby, once the operation starts! lol, best of luck man, and keep us posted or PM me from time to time cause we are sharing the same doc and you or me can be of valuable help to one another.

a couple questions on fraxel if anyone could help.

1. results acheievd in reducing scars,improving texture are these permanent or does it go back to the same level in a few years?? providing you take care of your skin ie sunscreen etc.. and your 26 years old at the time of the treatments.

2. after fraxel when is ok to start your regime again, including peels, copper peptides.. should any of these be stopped a few days before the treatment??

any help would be apreciated.

I reread Troubled's post. It is one pass and I bet it is SR 1500 scattergram. I think the principle is that the density automatically reduces if you increase the intensity to 40 mjs with the software for the SDR 1500.

I am fairly confident, based on what I read earlier this year, that this was not the case with Fraxel 1 (model 750). There were 2 density settings, 125 or 150, that were independent of the mj setting. Troubled seems to have special insight and I would like him to confirm this presumption on my part.

I agree with JJ on TCA being from the dark ages, compared to Fraxel, so I don't plan to try that, but I do agree that you must wait awhile for collagen induction to be evident. I have had fraxel with reasonable results. I think I am a slow responder because of age, but I perceive minor improvement in scarring as time goes on.

Melsconca, perhaps like me, your age also affects your ability to produce collagen. Anyway, are you siying that you had no results from Fraxel? What was total energy and how many treatments?

I'm still not clear on whether the Fraxel 2 is the same as the SR1500. The Fraxel 2 is only a software upgrade to the old Fraxel or does the Fraxel 2 guarantee they're using the SR1500? If I ask to see the machine will it say SR1500 on it somewhere???

 

Anyone? I was hoping to go for a consultation next week and it would be nice to know!

 

I'm still not clear on whether the Fraxel 2 is the same as the SR1500. The Fraxel 2 is only a software upgrade to the old Fraxel or does the Fraxel 2 guarantee they're using the SR1500? If I ask to see the machine will it say SR1500 on it somewhere???

 

Anyone? I was hoping to go for a consultation next week and it would be nice to know!

 

SR1500 is Fraxel 2, it's the newest version.

If you want to make absolutely certain that your doctor has it, maybe a call/email to Reliant is in order, just to make sure.

I reread Troubled's post. It is one pass and I bet it is SR 1500 scattergram. I think the principle is that the density automatically reduces if you increase the intensity to 40 mjs with the software for the SDR 1500.

I am fairly confident, based on what I read earlier this year, that this was not the case with Fraxel 1 (model 750). There were 2 density settings, 125 or 150, that were independent of the mj setting. Troubled seems to have special insight and I would like him to confirm this presumption on my part.

I agree with JJ on TCA being from the dark ages, compared to Fraxel, so I don't plan to try that, but I do agree that you must wait awhile for collagen induction to be evident. I have had fraxel with reasonable results. I think I am a slow responder because of age, but I perceive minor improvement in scarring as time goes on.

Melsconca, perhaps like me, your age also affects your ability to produce collagen. Anyway, are you siying that you had no results from Fraxel? What was total energy and how many treatments?

 

I'm alittle confused with model 750 being Fraxel 1. When I had my treatment I looked at the machine and it says SDR1500. Isn't SDR1500 FRAXEl 1?? What is FRAXEL 2 called??

I'm alittle confused with model 750 being Fraxel 1. When I had my treatment I looked at the machine and it says SDR1500. Isn't SDR1500 FRAXEl 1?? What is FRAXEL 2 called??

 

"Reliant Technologies and Fraxel Laser Treatment In the NewsDate: 08.14.06

Reliant Launches Fraxel SR1500 Laser

Mountain View, CA August 14, 2006 Reliant Technologies, Inc. today announced the launch of the Fraxel SR1500 laser, the latest innovation in aesthetic laser medical technology. The Fraxel SR1500 laser combines proprietary advancements in optical technology with medical software offering physicians a treatment option that penetrates up to 30 percent deeper, delivering consistent dosage control and optimizing lesion depths."

Fraxel SR1500 is the latest one, according to the manufacturer's website.

Here's the link:

http://www.reliant-tech.com/newsdetails.cfm?NEWSID=41

 

I'm still not clear on whether the Fraxel 2 is the same as the SR1500. The Fraxel 2 is only a software upgrade to the old Fraxel or does the Fraxel 2 guarantee they're using the SR1500? If I ask to see the machine will it say SR1500 on it somewhere???

 

Anyone? I was hoping to go for a consultation next week and it would be nice to know!

 

I answered your question in my post above. Call and ask your doctor if they are using the SR1500 software/machine. My doctor had the Fraxel 750 and upgraded the software to the lastest technology ie: 1500.

Shyone answered your question too I see 😀

I found a place online that sells the Natragel mask for a bit cheaper then the doctors office

www.spaelegance.com

I love this mask!!!!

You can disagree all you like is doesnt alter the facts. Why the feck do I keep coming back to these boards I always leave with bald patches from pulling my hair in frustration. I do have a sincere desire to help but sheeeeesh some folks cant be helped. Maaaaaaate Ive probably been having scar revision since before you were born probably had more procedures than youve had hot dinners including every procedure in the plastic surgery and dermatology armamentarium except Exoderm, Ive been poked prodded illuminated irradiated and abraded from every angle. Whilst I dont profess to be a medical professional Im not a complete quack either.

Did you ever notice that some people can eat whatever they want and rarely ever become fat? Did you ever notice how some people gain fat a lot easier and a lot quicker than other people? Did you ever notice the same about gaining muscle? It's not your imagination. The reason for this is genetics. Ectomorph the naturally skinny body type of the three different body types. Unlike the mesomorph and the endomorph, the ectomorph is the person that has probably been very skinny their entire life. It's not because of a great diet or workout, it's because they are born with a super fast metabolism. The same principle applies to collagen synthesis and catabolism. Ectomorphs will never be Hulk Hogans and some people will never produce much collagen from a controlled injury to the papillary or reticular dermis no matter how many bells and whistles a laser has.

By all means try fraxel if so inclined I tried it myself at a bargain basement price of 300 dollars per session at maximum power settings of 40 MJ 125 MTZ for several passes it did absolutely zero for me and for another dozen similar posts Ive read the exception being one poster who was happy with a general improvement overall not a scar specific improvement. In a utopia this sort of information would be given to patients before they handed over wads of money but we live in capitalist economy so its very much every man and woman for themselves. The TCA trial is a valid strategy an analogy would be instead of signing up for thousands of dollars of gym membership seduced by the latest shiny machines a more prudent approach if finances are a consideration would be to first buy a fifty dollar pair of dumbells to gauge ones own capacity for muscular hypertrophy before handing over wads of sweet smelling freshly minted banknotes to a greedy gym owner.

 

I have to wonder why the price was so low. was your doctor new at this? was it the old fraxel? a fraxel knock off? like i said in an earlier post, at 40 MJ and 125 density you are getting very poor coverage compared to 10 MJ at 250 density.

All those pictures on reliant and fraxel.com are from before doctors started doing high settings (above 20). They were still using the melasma parameters to treat acne scars (6-15 MJ at 250 density). I think this leads to better coverage and results, although NOT for deepers scars. If you look at the results on those webpages you can see that most patients got very nice results on their shallow scarring but their deeper scars are only a little filled in at the edges. sometimes this can make deep scars look even more defined!

I still think they need to refine the treatment parameters for acne scars. remember the FDA approval for acne scars is only a few months old and there was only two fraxel clinical studies done on acne scars so far (that i can find). i think bluekit is part of a third study that is going on as we speak. (although she does say the nurse exaggerates her results in the evaluations!)

deep acne scars are difficult to treat. i think you do have to go with high settings 30-40 MJ. however this reduces the coverage. even with multiple passes. maybe the technology needs to be adapted. i mean if they just up'ed the number of passes at 40 MJ then it would somewhat defeat the benefit of fractional resurfacing. already the down time with high fraxel settings is approaching the two weeks recovery of ablative lasers like co2 or traditional erbium. (versus a day downtime for melasma.)

also when the fraxel/reliant site talks about collagen induction remember they are talking about this in terms of microscopic wounds. you have to first realize that your body will only lay down collagen where it has received MTZs. second, if your scars are deep then your body just won't be able to lay down that much collagen to "fill them up" level with your normal skin after only five treatments. even if you were in perfect health with great genes and "biochemistry." the body has a tremendous ability to heal itself, but within certain physical and temporal limits.

you've also got to consider the fibrotic tissue in deep scars. im not sure if the fraxel can break up scar tissue that well. most people who report good results on their scars had the type that was just a loss of collagen, not a loss of collagen + fibrosis. some peopel on here have said they think for fibrotic scars you need to get excision/subcision first or fraxel is just a waste of time and money.

it's plain to see that for melasma and photodamage (which fraxel was invented for) fraxel works great. for light scars it works OK. for moderate and deeper scars it works less than OK or even negligible. maybe if they adapt the technology it may work better for deep scars? or maybe patients with scars just need many more treatments? I don't know but i wouldn't just blame your body chemistry. you have to look at the whole picture.

 

You can disagree all you like is doesnt alter the facts. Why the feck do I keep coming back to these boards I always leave with bald patches from pulling my hair in frustration. I do have a sincere desire to help but sheeeeesh some folks cant be helped. Maaaaaaate Ive probably been having scar revision since before you were born probably had more procedures than youve had hot dinners including every procedure in the plastic surgery and dermatology armamentarium except Exoderm, Ive been poked prodded illuminated irradiated and abraded from every angle. Whilst I dont profess to be a medical professional Im not a complete quack either.

Did you ever notice that some people can eat whatever they want and rarely ever become fat? Did you ever notice how some people gain fat a lot easier and a lot quicker than other people? Did you ever notice the same about gaining muscle? It's not your imagination. The reason for this is genetics. Ectomorph the naturally skinny body type of the three different body types. Unlike the mesomorph and the endomorph, the ectomorph is the person that has probably been very skinny their entire life. It's not because of a great diet or workout, it's because they are born with a super fast metabolism. The same principle applies to collagen synthesis and catabolism. Ectomorphs will never be Hulk Hogans and some people will never produce much collagen from a controlled injury to the papillary or reticular dermis no matter how many bells and whistles a laser has.

By all means try fraxel if so inclined I tried it myself at a bargain basement price of 300 dollars per session at maximum power settings of 40 MJ 125 MTZ for several passes it did absolutely zero for me and for another dozen similar posts Ive read the exception being one poster who was happy with a general improvement overall not a scar specific improvement. In a utopia this sort of information would be given to patients before they handed over wads of money but we live in capitalist economy so its very much every man and woman for themselves. The TCA trial is a valid strategy an analogy would be instead of signing up for thousands of dollars of gym membership seduced by the latest shiny machines a more prudent approach if finances are a consideration would be to first buy a fifty dollar pair of dumbells to gauge ones own capacity for muscular hypertrophy before handing over wads of sweet smelling freshly minted banknotes to a greedy gym owner.

 

I have to wonder why the price was so low. was your doctor new at this? was it the old fraxel? a fraxel knock off? like i said in an earlier post, at 40 MJ and 125 density you are getting very poor coverage compared to 10 MJ at 250 density.

All those pictures on reliant and fraxel.com are from before doctors started doing high settings (above 20). They were still using the melasma parameters to treat acne scars (6-15 MJ at 250 density). I think this leads to better coverage and results, although NOT for deepers scars. If you look at the results on those webpages you can see that most patients got very nice results on their shallow scarring but their deeper scars are only a little filled in at the edges. sometimes this can make deep scars look even more defined!

I still think they need to refine the treatment parameters for acne scars. remember the FDA approval for acne scars is only a few months old and there was only two fraxel clinical studies done on acne scars so far (that i can find). i think bluekit is part of a third study that is going on as we speak. (although she does say the nurse exaggerates her results in the evaluations!)

deep acne scars are difficult to treat. i think you do have to go with high settings 30-40 MJ. however this reduces the coverage. even with multiple passes. maybe the technology needs to be adapted. i mean if they just up'ed the number of passes at 40 MJ then it would somewhat defeat the benefit of fractional resurfacing. already the down time with high fraxel settings is approaching the two weeks recovery of ablative lasers like co2 or traditional erbium. (versus a day downtime for melasma.)

also when the fraxel/reliant site talks about collagen induction remember they are talking about this in terms of microscopic wounds. you have to first realize that your body will only lay down collagen where it has received MTZs. second, if your scars are deep then your body just won't be able to lay down that much collagen to "fill them up" level with your normal skin after only five treatments. even if you were in perfect health with great genes and "biochemistry." the body has a tremendous ability to heal itself, but within certain physical and temporal limits.

you've also got to consider the fibrotic tissue in deep scars. im not sure if the fraxel can break up scar tissue that well. most people who report good results on their scars had the type that was just a loss of collagen, not a loss of collagen + fibrosis. some peopel on here have said they think for fibrotic scars you need to get excision/subcision first or fraxel is just a waste of time and money.

it's plain to see that for melasma and photodamage (which fraxel was invented for) fraxel works great. for light scars it works OK. for moderate and deeper scars it works less than OK or even negligible. maybe if they adapt the technology it may work better for deep scars? or maybe patients with scars just need many more treatments? I don't know but i wouldn't just blame your body chemistry. you have to look at the whole picture.

 

James this is good info, i went to a consult for fraxel, the Dr said we can do 14-16mtz with 250 density to start things off he said this would be better then just doing 25mtz+ 125density, what your saying makes sense, maybe i should stick with the lower mtz and higher density, i have mainly shallow rolling scars, bad skin texture, large or scarred pores, uneven skintone, i also have some wrinkles already at age 26, im hoping fraxel can address most of these what do you think?

do you think it would be wise to do treatments at those levels the doc suggested to start of with,

interesting that you say rolling scars.

I try not to use that terminology (i.e. rolling, icepick, boxcar) but "rolling scars" is the type i meant when i said those who get best results are the ones with just collagen loss without fibrosis.

widgie reported good results and she had mostly rolling. i can't recall her settings but im pretty sure they weren't super high/aggressive.

most doctors start off at 10-15 MJ + 250 MTZ density because that is the established parameters for fraxel (based on melasma). that's not to say its not effective for your type of scar. it should give you very high coverage and at least half a millimeter of penetration.

so yes IMO i think your doctor is right and it is the best way to go especially for the first series of treatment.

pores are difficult to treat especially if they are scarred. if you still have oily skin they may stay dilated even if the scarring around them was improved. i have these too so it is something i've asked about and paid attention to in others posts.

skintone is the #1 improvement that everyone reports.

the texture is the #2 improvemetn most everyone reports but i'm never sure what exactly people mean by this. most say skin is softer to the touch and smoother looking close up in the mirror.

one thing i've noticed about texture is that a lot of patients have a fine grainy look to their skin after fraxel. it's usually an improvement over their scarring, but looks different than normal skin. i suppose this is because the skin is still healing in most after pics. in fact when normal tissue heals in a wound (without scar tissue forming) the medical term for this tissue is granulation tissue. only one other person on the board reported noticing this effect but its something i perceive in most after photos i look at.

at 26 im sure ur wrinkles are small and would probably be helped too. search my posts. on about page 82 i posted a link to the university of baylor website on fraxel. it shows great photos (not reliant site rip-offs like most doctor's sites). you can see three patients one who got scar revision, another who got forehead wrinkles done, and another who got scars/pores/and sun damage.

i emailed the doctor about the photos and he was using the old fraxel. the last woman had 9 MJ at 250 density. the pic is after only 3 treatments and you can see a good improvement in all areas. BTW i emailed this doctor again and he is currently evaluating the fraxel 2 to see if there is any real difference.

also it's lower MJ-stands for mega joules-not "lower MTZ." (MTZ stands for microthermal zones and is a measure of density, i.e. 150 MTZ's per cm squared or 250 per centimeter squared.) (MJ is the unit of energy that is delivered in each MTZ and relates to the depth of penetration into your skin.) you want lower MJ and higher MTZs

interesting that you say rolling scars.

I try not to use that terminology (i.e. rolling, icepick, boxcar) but "rolling scars" is the type i meant when i said those who get best results are the ones with just collagen loss without fibrosis.

widgie reported good results and she had mostly rolling. i can't recall her settings but im pretty sure they weren't super high/aggressive.

most doctors start off at 10-15 MJ + 250 MTZ density because that is the established parameters for fraxel (based on melasma). that's not to say its not effective for your type of scar. it should give you very high coverage and at least half a millimeter of penetration.

so yes IMO i think your doctor is right and it is the best way to go especially for the first series of treatment.

pores are difficult to treat especially if they are scarred. if you still have oily skin they may stay dilated even if the scarring around them was improved. i have these too so it is something i've asked about and paid attention to in others posts.

skintone is the #1 improvement that everyone reports.

the texture is the #2 improvemetn most everyone reports but i'm never sure what exactly people mean by this. most say skin is softer to the touch and smoother looking close up in the mirror.

one thing i've noticed about texture is that a lot of patients have a fine grainy look to their skin after fraxel. it's usually an improvement over their scarring, but looks different than normal skin. i suppose this is because the skin is still healing in most after pics. in fact when normal tissue heals in a wound (without scar tissue forming) the medical term for this tissue is granulation tissue. only one other person on the board reported noticing this effect but its something i perceive in most after photos i look at.

at 26 im sure ur wrinkles are small and would probably be helped too. search my posts. on about page 82 i posted a link to the university of baylor website on fraxel. it shows great photos (not reliant site rip-offs like most doctor's sites). you can see three patients one who got scar revision, another who got forehead wrinkles done, and another who got scars/pores/and sun damage.

i emailed the doctor about the photos and he was using the old fraxel. the last woman had 9 MJ at 250 density. the pic is after only 3 treatments and you can see a good improvement in all areas. BTW i emailed this doctor again and he is currently evaluating the fraxel 2 to see if there is any real difference.

 

Thanks for the reply i tried to find that link on page 82 but couldent.. will keep looking

couple concerns i did have with fraxel maybe you can should some light.

1. fat loss, has this happened to anyone i have heard Thermage can cause fat loss, but any word on fraxel and fat loss?

2. Results from fraxel is this temp or a semi-perm kind of treatment where scars/pores/texture/color/ that get improved dont go back to the same in a few years? providing you take care of your skin.

thanks again