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10 hours ago, Toni94 said:Is it worth to try and go to a dermatologist? Treatments in Spain are not half as expensive as they are in the US...but doctors in general don't specialize in acne scarring and they mainly focus on anti-aging techniques, botox, breast-butt enhancements and that kind of thing.
There's a private hospital here in Valencia where doctors charge you 180ish per session of co2 laser...maybe subcision is round 75-100...nothing to do with US doctors' fees. I don't mind having 2-3 rounds of laser or subcision if I get some improvement. But it puts me off to read so many reviews from people saying they had no improvement whatsoever. Most folks even say scars are not treatable.
Do you think I can have a decent improvement if I stick to a treatment plan?
Improvement is definitely possible over the course of a treatment plan. Don't expect an instantaneous miracle though; tissue regeneration takes time. Ideally, each procedure should be spaced out a little bit. I've seen people with similar scarring that ended up with significant improvement. Whether it's worth the cost depends on your financial situation and how much you care about the scars. Those procedures are cheap for acne scar treatments, but everything is relative.
There used to be a good dermatologist guide in Europe on this forum. Unfortunately, I can't locate it now. Does anyone here happen to know the thread? I'm worried it's gone now that BA is inactive
12 hours ago, Toni94 said:Ok so you are basically telling me that you obtained tiny or no results from lasers, but they left you some extra scarring. very motivating indeed!! Were your scars milder than mine?
No, I obtained results from lasers. I said that risks come with benefits. Some of my shallow boxcar scars smoothed out. I had a crater scar that became shallower which I was happy about. After that crater scar was less deep, I didn't feel the need to treat it anymore. I also had a linear divot that became shallower. Same goes with several other boxcars.
Overall, TotalFX was worth it to me. However, it wasn't like: "OMG, this is incredible!" It was more like: "UGH, I have to sacrifice 1-2 months of social downtime but fine..."
11 hours ago, Toni94 said:Is it worth to try and go to a dermatologist? Treatments in Spain are not half as expensive as they are in the US...but doctors in general don't specialize in acne scarring and they mainly focus on anti-aging techniques, botox, breast-butt enhancements and that kind of thing.
There's a private hospital here in Valencia where doctors charge you 180ish per session of co2 laser...maybe subcision is round 75-100...nothing to do with US doctors' fees. I don't mind having 2-3 rounds of laser or subcision if I get some improvement. But it puts me off to read so many reviews from people saying they had no improvement whatsoever. Most folks even say scars are not treatable.
Do you think I can have a decent improvement if I stick to a treatment plan?
That is so cheap. My fractional CO2 laser treatment was more than $2,000!
Doctors may not be experts in scarring. Some people on this forum know more about scar treatments than doctors: BA, Sirius Lee, etc. Sometimes you need to tell them what you want. Beware that many doctors will only suggest treatments with devices they own even though the devices may not be the best.
You should find out what type of laser they offer and if it is a fractional or fully ablative laser. See if there is RF microneedling like Infini or Genius as well. If you can get those treatments done cheaply, it might be a good idea.
Subcision for that cheap? I would get it done several times if I were you. I don't know if you will see a huge difference though because your scars don't seem that tethered, but those prices are cheap!
38 minutes ago, Amanda Hall said:Some people on this forum know more about scar treatments than doctors: BA, Sirius Lee, etc.
How do you know more about scars if all you do is write on a board and read info online? How do you know more about scars if you've never treated any scars but your own? How do you know more about scars than people who've spend 8 years to become professionals and actually treat scars on a regular basis?
Thinking you know better and can diagnose only via a few photos actually shows how little you know and how little you are to be trusted.
Nothing against people giving their opinion based on having dealt with scars themselves, on reading a lot, butto suggest theyknow more about doctors who do scar treatmentsday in and day out is ridiculous.
19 minutes ago, Sisi90 said:How do you know more about scars if all you do is write on a board and read info online? How do you know more about scars if you've never treated any scars but your own? How do you know more about scars than people who've spend 8 years to become professionals and actually treat scars on a regular basis?
Thinking you know better and can diagnose only via a few photos actually shows how little you know and how little you are to be trusted.
Nothing against people giving their opinion based on having dealt with scars themselves, on reading a lot, butto suggest theyknow more about doctors like Rullan who do scar treatmentsday in and day out is ridiculous.
You are wrong on all points.
1) I do believe I know more about scars than some doctors. This is based on what I read, see, and my own experience. I think people like BA, Serius Lee, and even Dudley are to trust because of what I read. None of us have medical backgrounds but sometimes you can gather lots of knowledge throughout the years.
2) One has to make the assumption that most of the reviews on RealSelf, YouTubeby individuals, and forums like these are legitimate. I can't prove that but I've used all sources and it has helped me.
3) Do you think doctors learn about all cosmetic treatments in medical school? No. You think all doctors know about every laser out there? I had to educate some of them about the microneedling and laser treatments I got done. Furthermore, do you think every doctor knows about Phenol Cross? Why is Dr. Rullan one of the few ones performing it when he says its safer than TCA Cross?
4) If doctors are so smart, why do they have different methods of treating scars? Why do some push for laser while others start with Cross first? Why don't many dermatologists perform subcision? Instead, they push for lasers that don't get to the walls of the scars as well. How come doctors will tell you recovery is 3-4 days when it's more like 7-10? Some are deceptive while others just go off of literature or what the companies tell them. In these cases, patients know more.
The reason I provide information here is that I've gotten a multitude of treatments which most people haven't.I tell people about my experience and what I read and see. I'm also honest in pointing out the risks, especially with my own procedures. The only thing I gain is helping people who are down on themselves just like I was.
If you are so confident in doctors, get the hell off of this forum and go get multiple consultations. Why are you here asking for advice??? What a f***ing hypocrite. You're a loser.
@Amanda Hall
Of course not all doctors are knowledgeable about scars. Of course not all are specializing in acne/ acnescar treatments. However, there are so many that are and that they offer the full array of treatments from peelings over subcision/ cross tolasers. It's up to you to find these specialists and go to them, that's why people do a bit of research on the doctor and the treatments before they have anything done.
I do stand behind my words above. I'd take the advice of a dermatologically trained doctors who ACTUALLY treat scars on a daily basis over yours who's probably never treated any other scars than yours and only read reviews/ threads online.
OMG everybody thinks they are specialists on everything these days!!
The fact that you think you can diagnose better and suggest better treatments than doctors just based on a few photos speaks volumes - unfortunately only of your total incompetency.
Just look at the thread above. The advice you give is totally biased. Based on your experience you suggest cross or lasers. Based on Siruis Lee experience he suggests TCA peels. While you can speak only of your experience dermatoligist see hundreds of scar patients and surprise surprise actually treat them, don't just write on boards.
How you allow yourselves to give so definite opinions to this person as if you are professionals is beyond me.
If you get a kick out of having certain authority on this site based on you reading reviews and theads and having done treatments, that's another thing.
Your input is appreciated by all means, but claiming you know more about doctors is ridiculous.
Please, remind me Amanda, speaking about Rullan, weren't you the one who had the audacity to question hissuggestions to a Japanese scar sufferer in a recent thread, leading to her arguing with him and he refused to treat her scars in the end??
So I guess you know better than Rullan too?
PS thank you for the insults. They speak volumes...about you.
7 minutes ago, Sisi90 said:@Amanda Hall
Of course not all doctors are knowledgeable about scars. Of course not all are specializing in acne/ acnescar treatments. However, there are so many that are and that they offer the full array of treatments from peelings over subcision/ cross tolasers. It's up to you to find these specialists and go to them, that's why people do a bit of research on the doctor and the treatments before they have anything done.
I do stand behind my words above. I'd take the advice of a dermatologically trained doctors who ACTUALLY treat scars on a daily basis over yours who's probably never treated any other scars than yours and only read reviews/ threads online.
OMG everybody thinks they are specialists on everything these days!!
The fact that you think you can diagnose better and suggest better treatments than doctors just based on a few photos speaks volumes - unfortunately only of your total incompetency.
Just look at the thread above. The advice you give is totally biased. Based on your experience you suggest cross or lasers. Based on Siruis Lee experience he suggests TCA peels. While you can speak only of your experience dermatoligist see hundreds of scar patients and surprise surprise actually treat them, don't just write on boards.
How you allow yourselves to give so definite opinions to this person as if you are professionals is beyond me.
If you get a kick out of having certain authority on this site based on you reading reviews and theads and having done treatments, that's another thing.
Your input is appreciated by all means, but claiming you know more about doctors is ridiculous.
Please, remind me Amanda, speaking about Rullan, weren't you the one who had the audacity to question hissuggestions to a Japanese scar sufferer in a recent thread, leading to her arguing with him and he refused to treat her scars in the end??
So I guess you know better than Rullan too?
PS thank you for the insults. They speak volumes...about you.
Your IQ clearly isn't that high.
Nobody recognizes any of us as doctors. I'm not even that highly regarded here. I've told some people here that there are more experienced people on this forum. With that being said, we share our experiences with people. We point out things for people to discover. Some new people here don't even know about subcision, Cross, etc. and some get swindled by doctors. Just scour this forum and you'll see.
Ultimately, it's up for the patients to decide. I think it's better for them to be armed with information than not and be ripped off by doctors. The discovery phase is highly significant. Had I not been on this forum, I wouldn't have gotten a few treatments that ended up helping me. Do you really think we're gods here? You don't think patients have the internet and the subsequent ability to research treatments on their own? We're putting out information for them to digest, and in some cases, if the doctor's recommendation is not in line with what we believe is appropriate, we'll comment on it.
Dr. Rullan is awesome. Does that mean he's always right? No. There have been some people here who said that Phenol Cross has widened/deepened their scars. I'm one of them. But wait, Dr. Rullan said it doesn't. So we're wrong? Please shut the hell up.
I'm sure there are many people that BA and Serius Lee have helped. It's OK for you to disagree, but for you to come here and say write what you wrote is incredibly daft. Even Dr. Davin Lim said BA probably knows more than the average dermatologist.
Also want to add something - doctors know more about the science behind all of this. I don't. I already mentioned in a post that I don't know howsome treatments workbut I know the results of them. I can't tell you how skin cells and collagen get formed and all that good stuff but I can tell you if it worked on me or not.
Last thing just so I can show people how stupid you are - why is it that when patients get consultations from multiple doctors, they get different treatment plans? Shouldn't all doctors be on the same page? With your rationale (or lack of), they should all treat patients the same way. We're no different. We're our own voices. This is an UNMODERATED FORUM. Anybody who thinks we're doctors are too hopeful and borderline idiotic. I know of one person like that... YOU.
I'm not gonna waste my time on you. I think I made myself perfectly clear. Your advice is appreciated but unlike you dermatologists examine the skin, perform the treatments, dofollow-ups, take the responsibility. That's how you gather experience and gain authority, not by reading reviews / studies / or writing on a board / speaking only if your limited and individual experience.
Not to mention how dangerous and totally irresponsible itis to give medical advice with such conviction. Serius Lee advocates high-strength tca peels and tca crosd do it at home. Well, it's not a walk in the park treatment at all. So many people have ruined their faces by doing this, some even have taken their lives.
I understand that you probably get a kick out of having an authority on this site(as an anon), based on knowing a bit more about scars than the average person does.
My point point is that it's ridiculous and irresponsible to claim you know better than the top scar specialists like Rullan. If you want to help people point them to good specialists, don't voice and insist on your biased opinions about treatments.
Such audacity!! So Rullan, the well-respected scar specialist with 30 years of practical experience "isn't always right" and you , the faceless anon with probably minimal improvement of your scars, feel compelled to correct him and make better suggestions???
PS insulting me wouldn't make you seem more high-IQ. If anything, you're embarrassing yourself. You obviously cannot have your opinions challenged in a civil way.
57 minutes ago, Sisi90 said:I'm not gonna waste my time on you. I think I made myself perfectly clear. Your advice is appreciated but unlike you dermatologists examine the skin, perform the treatments, dofollow-ups, take the responsibility. That's how you gather experience and gain authority, not by reading reviews / studies / or writing on a board / speaking only if your limited and individual experience.
Not to mention how dangerous and totally irresponsible itis to give medical advice with such conviction. Serius Lee advocates high-strength tca peels and tca crosd do it at home. Well, it's not a walk in the park treatment at all. So many people have ruined their faces by doing this, some even have taken their lives.
I understand that you probably get a kick out of having an authority on this site(as an anon), based on knowing a bit more about scars than the average person does.
My point point is that it's ridiculous and irresponsible to claim you know better than the top scar specialists like Rullan. If you want to help people point them to good specialists, don't voice and insist on your biased opinions about treatments.
Such audacity!! So Rullan, the well-respected scar specialist with 30 years of practical experience "isn't always right" and you , the faceless anon with probably minimal improvement of your scars, feel compelled to correct him and make better suggestions???
PS insulting me wouldn't make you seem more high-IQ. If anything, you're embarrassing yourself. You obviously cannot have your opinions challenged in a civil way.
I agree with Dr. Rullan about 98% of the time. You think that because I disagree with him on one thing that we're world's apart on every treatment? We are not on opposite sides of the spectrum, and you're an idiot. I still see Dr. Rullan. I've recommended him. I still do.
I wouldn't do anything more than a 30% peel on my face. I'm not sure I would even go over 20%. So Serius Lee and I have different thoughts. But I agree with many of his posts. We're DIFFERENT. Regarding TCA Cross, I've read a lot of accounts in which people have benefitted from doing TCA Cross themselves and they save money to boot. Could you do it yourself? Yes. Is it recommended to have it done by a doctor? Yes. What are the factors in consideration? One is cost. Some people don't want to keep paying for doctor fees. That's theirprerogative. They know the risks. Through so many posts you see members mentioning the risks with high-percentage acids.
You say I'm dangerous. Do you know how many patients people like BA have helped? He's actually told people to stay away from lasers due to risks. Many doctors would push for it just for the money. There goes your stupid argument. I'm pretty sure I've avoided many risks by doing my own research and listening to what people have to say on this forum AS WELL as what the doctors have to say.
It's irresponsible of you to tell people that information on this forum is bad for them. Do you realize that other members want to hear about everyone's experiences and their opinion of procedures and doctors? You are so dense.
You really make no sense. You have a right to question things but when you come with weak arguments, it's embarassing for you.
Board Certified dermatologists specializing in acne scar revision are knowledgeable. Unfortunately, there aren't many of these dermatologists. There are some states without any. In such states, there are usually a few certified dermatologists offering laser treatments or alternative procedures, but they don't specialize in acne scars specifically. While they're trained on operating the equipment and willing to see patients with acne scars, they may not come up with the best treatment plan. A well-trained dermatologist will tailor the treatment plan to each patients unique situation and needs.
It's not a bad thing for patients to have some knowledge of the procedure ooptions. Since scar revision involves expensive cosmetic procedures, quality of care is very important. Some members of this forum have solid knowledge about acne scarring and scar revision. In general, I wouldn't advise posters to trust them over professionals specializing in scar revision. As good as some here are at identifying acne scars, evaluating them in person is always preferable. The majority of the posters here certainly haven't operated on a patient either. I do believe that this forum is a good starting point for patients at the very least. As Amanda mentioned, many new users haven't heard of procedures like subcision. If they were to see a provider who doesn't specialize in acne scarring, the default result may be a laser treatment when perhaps subcision is a better starting point for them. Perhaps the tips here are then most applicable for patients unable to see the Dr. Lim or Dr. Rullans of the world.
Below is a screenshot from the acne.org treatment guide. It has some good general tips: https://www.acne.org/acne-scar-treatment.html
22 minutes ago, Amanda Hall said:I agree
Please, Amanda, let's just stop. This isn't leading anyway. My point is that although I appreciate your imput, it's totally ridiculous not to mention dangerous to claim any forum member has more knowledge and experience than the scar specialists who actually do the treatments. I think it's not so difficult to understand.
Don't worry. I would never think you are a professional, I said you write and present yourself as if you were, challenging dr Rullan's suggestions. Actual professionals are extremely cautious when issuing a recommendation because they are responsible and aware of all the dangers and implications. I for example wouldn't be able to sleep well if I know I gave some unknown person on the other end of the world the recommendation to do 100% TCA CROSS at home, giving them only basic information. I've read on this forum of a guy who thought he could do the cross on his own, had his brother apply 100% tca acid on the whole face and ended up in the ER and later killing himself.
So, yeah. A bit more responsibility from the fellow forum members would be nice.
PS you should really stop calling me names. I mean I couldn't care less about your opinion of me, but it's getting uncomfortable for everybody.
28 minutes ago, Skin Pessimist said:
I'm not challenging any of that. As I said all shared experience is mostly appreciated. Of course, not all derms are good at treating scars, but there are many that are. Let's should advise people to go see them. But I do mind when people think that they are more competent than the best doctors in the world dr Rullan like Amanda or recommending by default tca peels amd cross as a DIY treatment at home. This is dangerous stuff!
36 minutes ago, Skin Pessimist said:Board Certified dermatologists specializing in acne scar revision are knowledgeable. Unfortunately, there aren't many of these dermatologists. There are some states without any. In such states, there are usually a few certified dermatologists offering laser treatments or alternative procedures, but they don't specialize in acne scars specifically. While they're trained on operating the equipment and willing to see patients with acne scars, they may not come up with the best treatment plan. A well-trained dermatologist will tailor the treatment plan to each patients unique situation and needs.
It's not a bad thing for patients to have some knowledge of the procedure ooptions. Since scar revision involves expensive cosmetic procedures, quality of care is very important. Some members of this forum have solid knowledge about acne scarring and scar revision. In general, I wouldn't advise posters to trust them over professionals specializing in scar revision. As good as some here are at identifying acne scars, evaluating them in person is always preferable. The majority of the posters here certainly haven't operated on a patient either. I do believe that this forum is a good starting point for patients at the very least. As Amanda mentioned, many new users haven't heard of procedures like subcision. If they were to see a provider who doesn't specialize in acne scarring, the default result may be a laser treatment when perhaps subcision is a better starting point for them. Perhaps the tips here are then most applicable for patients unable to see the Dr. Lim or Dr. Rullans of the world.
Skin Pessimist, you are on point with your post.
There aren't many specialists which is why we hear the same names over and over again: Lim, Weiner, Rullan, Novick, etc. If someone can't see any of those, they have to see someone else. There may be a huge drop-off in scar experience. This is where I think people need to learn as much as they can because many dermatologists don't know all techniques or devices. Look at laser reviews on RealSelf. The success rate isn't that high. People need to learn about the risks of lasers - the same goes with every treatment.
24 minutes ago, Sisi90 said:Please, Amanda, let's just stop. This isn't leading anyway. My point is that although I appreciate your imput, it's totally ridiculous not to mention dangerous to claim any forum member has more knowledge and experience than the scar specialists who actually do the treatments. I think it's not so difficult to understand.
Don't worry. I would never think you are a professional, I said you write and present yourself as if you were, challenging dr Rullan's suggestions. Actual professionals are extremely cautious when issuing a recommendation because they are responsible and aware of all the dangers and implications. I for example wouldn't be able to sleep well if I know I gave some unknown person on the other end of the world the recommendation to do 100% TCA CROSS at home, giving them only basic information. I've read on this forum of a guy who thought he could do the cross on his own, had his brother apply 100% tca acid on the whole face and ended up in the ER and later killing himself.
So, yeah. A bit more responsibility from the fellow forum members would be nice.
PS you should really stop calling me names. I mean I couldn't care less about your opinion of me, but it's getting uncomfortable for everybody.
It might be uncomfortable for people but at least now they will know why we are debating. THERE ARE RISKS TO TREATMENTS. Let's just get that out of the way.
If you read most of my posts, I point to the risks to let people know that there's no guarantee with everything. Many doctors will not tell you the risks of lasers (additional scarring and fat loss) or RF microneedling (fat loss).So the fact that you call me out and say I'm dangerous is pretty insulting.
I don't think you understand"challenging his suggestions" and "disagreeing with him." I said that I believe Phenol Cross can widen and deepen scars. Does this mean I advocate against this? No. I just said that's the risk despite Dr. Rullan saying this doesn't happen. What's my evidence? My own face and a few other people here saying that as well. I also said in several posts that I still believe Phenol Cross is safer than TCA Cross due to what I read and see from Dr. Rullan - oh yeah, I've seen him multiple times and I trust him more than I do other dermatologists.
It's sad that someone killed himself. But you also have to look at how many people have been helped by members on this forum who help people because they have good hearts. People like BA should be given lots of credit for the work he/she did. The problem of mentioning one death is that you close your eyes to success stories. It's kinda like saying an airplane crashed and so people shouldn't fly anymore.
10 minutes ago, Sisi90 said:I'm not challenging any of that. As I said all shared experience is mostly appreciated. Of course, not all derms are good at treating scars, but there are many that are. Let'sshould advise people to go see them. But I do mind when people think that they are more competent than the best doctorsin the world dr Rullan like Amanda or recommending by default tca peels amd cross as a DIY treatment at home. This is dangerous stuff!
This is exactly what's wrong with your argument.
1) There aren't many dermatologists good at treating scars. This is why I mentioned those popular doctors earlier. Sometimes people need to know what they want instead of having doctors tell them because doctors may be oblivious to certain treatments or they could be pushing the wrong treatment just to make money. But like Skin Pessimist said, the number of specialists isn't that high. If you do see a scar specialist, you should definitely trust them over people on this forum. That's a clear duh.
2) You are advising people see scar specialists. I absolutely agree. If you have the money, time, and patience, you should definitely see a dermatologist. The problem is that some patients are not comfortable with their recommendation so they come here. Also, some will seek multiple consultations and get different treatment plans. Who do they go with? Going with lasers over manual methods can be dangerous. I'm overcomplicating things. Bottom line is that this is a free forum for everyone who wants more information. There are risks with every procedure and hopefully we do a good job of pointing them out.
3) I never said I'm more competent than doctors. If I tell you that I think my scar got a little deeper, is that saying I'm better than a doctor? Seriously. That's just stating facts.
@Amanda Hall
You're twisting my words.
1.) I welcome sharing experience about procedures, doctors, etc. That's why I'm here.
2.)I disagreed with your comment that BA, Sirius Lee know more about scars than doctors do. No matter how much you read or how many treatments you do, no way you are more experienced than the scar specialists who examine the skin, do the treatments, the follow-ups, take the responsibility. It's ridiculous and irresponsible to claim otherwise.
3.) It wasirresponsible of you to think you know better than Rullan and can challenge his recommendation to the Japanese girl, thinking Rullan isn't always right. Of course, the result was that maybe the best scar specialist in the world refused to treat her. Understandable. If you seek the help ofthe best lawyer in the world to defend you but tell him how to do their job, they'll probably drop you immediately too.
4.) It's totally irresponsible and dangerous what your Sirius lee who according to you is more competent than doctorsrepetedly does on this forum.Often times in a very authoritative language he GIVES INSTRUCTIONS as to whattreatments people they should get, andoften it's high-strength tca peels and tca cross at home.
Those are my main issues with your first comment. Don't twist my words.
Other than that I prefer to use my time to find the good doctors for scars in my area and to discuss with them, not here with you, sorry.
MODERATOR POST PLEASE READ
It has come to our attention that there has been arguing going on in this thread. We locked it for a few hours to thoroughly investigate. It is now unlocked and you may continue to reply.
Before anyone else carries on replying here I would like to breakdown some of the points here
- This forumismoderated and we are keeping a close eye on reported content.
- This is a peer to peer site so we do not allow doctors herebutreviews and discussions pertaining to them are allowed.
- People are open to discuss their treatments and processes as well as suggesttreatments.
- It is against the forum rules to suggest or share execution ofany treatment that has to be done by professionals. (ie. High concentration chemical peels, TCA Cross, subcision, etc.)
- We welcome healthy disagreement but we do not allow name-calling and personal attacks.Also be considerate and do not hijack someone else's thread with heated arguments.Keep it healthy and level-headed.
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If and when we find repeated violations of the same kind there will be permanent vacations issued by the moderators ofthis forum.
Good day everyone.
Thanks for intervening and I apologize to Tony for hijacking his thread. I'm relatively new and didn't realize we had to watch out where we discuss things related to our scar struggles.
I was just wondering if you moderate and screen personal messages for specific execution of any treatment plan done by professionals as well.
Because as it turns out very detailed instructions are being shared via DMs about TCA peels and CROSS as a home treatment, by people praised on this site as more knowledgeable than doctors!
What is even worse is that the instructions don't make it clear if the treatment with the high-percentage TCA acid was supposed to be a spot treatment in a cross technique or as a whole face peel! ( I can show you screen shots of the chat, to see for yourselves.)
That's simply dangerous, imho.
I think its important to askquestions to the doctor. Use this site and other resources as guidance and compare the knowledge that you have gathered here to what a doctor tells you. Ask why they advocate one procedure over another.
The people on this site like BA and Sirius are giving their best advice, but that does not necessarily mean that what they recommendwill work. Its the same for doctors too.Acne scar revisionis not an exact science, so all these people aretakingtheir best guess at what will work. Thats why you hear differing opinions.
Also, remember that there are many factors that go into what you get out of treatments. The doctors skill is part of it, but remember that your bodys ability to heal is crucial too.
On 9/5/2020 at 12:27 PM, Skin Pessimist said:We'll have to disagree here. When done by a properly trained dermatologist, TCA cross is quite possibly the best procedure for ice pick scars. Complications are possible, but they're rare when a board certified dermatologist is performing the procedure. Most of the TCA cross horror stories are from people who attempt DIY TCA cross. DIY TCA Cross is dangerous and dermatologists advise against it. Ordinary people don't have the necessary training. TCA bought online is sometimes not medical grade either.
I think the reason why it is the best procedure for ice pick scars is that we don't have many other choices. I can only think of punch excision and TCA cross as for the treatments to ice pick scars. In this forum, punch excision is always considered as the last option, so does my derm.
TCA cross is known to have many side effects including scarwidening, PIE, PIH, etc... Also healing from strong acid varies a lot. Some people is a good healer, butsome people aren't. Also when the acid drops on your skin, you cannot control where the liquid goes. It might help break the scar tissue, but also in the mean time, it might impact the normal skin.
I'm not saying TCA cross doesn't work, but just wanna emphasize that recommending anyone doing this at home isdangerous, even the skilled derm makes mistakes.
1 hour ago, Jack817 said:I think the reason why it is the best procedure for ice pick scars is that we don't have many other choices. I can only think of punch excision and TCA cross as for the treatments to ice pick scars. In this forum, punch excision is always considered as the last option, so does my derm.
TCA cross is known to have many side effects including scarwidening, PIE, PIH, etc... Also healing from strong acid varies a lot. Some people is a good healer, butsome people aren't. Also when the acid drops on your skin, you cannot control where the liquid goes. It might help break the scar tissue, but also in the mean time, it might impact the normal skin.
I'm not saying TCA cross doesn't work, but just wanna emphasize that recommending anyone doing this at home isdangerous, even the skilled derm makes mistakes.
I wouldn't recommend doing TCA Cross by yourself. I had Dr. Rullan do Phenol Cross on me several times because he's a leading scar expert. I had another dermatologist do TCA Cross on me once and she applied it at the corner of my boxcar. She missed most of it and I think the TCA hit some scarred skin and healthy skin as well. With all of her expensive lights, she couldn't see the big scar I wanted treated. Sometimes you just know your skin better...
I've read stories online of people successfully treating themselves but they surely know the risks.
Sometimes I wonder if it's riskierto have a doctor perform TCA Cross because they apply the acid so fast and without precision.
On 9/8/2020 at 7:31 AM, Jack817 said:I'm not saying TCA cross doesn't work, but just wanna emphasize that recommending anyone doing this at home isdangerous, even the skilled derm makes mistakes.
My thoughts exactly!
On 9/8/2020 at 9:16 AM, Amanda Hall said:Sometimes I wonder if it's riskierto have a doctor perform TCA Cross because they apply the acid so fast and without precision.
A piece of well-meaning advice. If you're so worried about docs not hitting your scars,next time during tca cross at a derm's office simply tell your doctorthat you value their expertise but would like to ask if you could mark the scars that are bothering you the most because you know your skin best / because the scars are small / not well visible under different lighting or something like that, think of something.You get the idea - respectful communication instead of allegations. Any doc will be happy to oblige you.
And one rhetorical question. Who do you think will do a better job at the crossing? You, who has (hopefully) watched some tca cross videos on youtube and has read a few instructions, doing tca cross for the 1rst time or the trained doctor who probably had to do a course and earn a certificate todo the crossing properly and who'salready treated hundreds of scar patients? You, who haveto use a mirror to see where to apply the acid, or the doctor, who is standing and has much better control of the acid application and of the result and the safety of the acid? Is it worth it saving a few hundred bucks and risking not having the desired result or worse something going bad?
All well-meaning questions with the purpose to make you think about these things not to ignite an argument again.
14 hours ago, Sisi90 said:My thoughts exactly!
A piece of well-meaning advice. If you're so worried about docs not hitting your scars,next time during tca cross at a derm's office simply tell your doctorthat you value their expertise but would like to ask if you could mark the scars that are bothering you the most because you know your skin best / because the scars are small / not well visible under different lighting or something like that, think of something.You get the idea - respectful communication instead of allegations. Any doc will be happy to oblige you.
And one rhetorical question. Who do you think will do a better job at the crossing? You, who has (hopefully) watched some tca cross videos on youtube and has read a few instructions, doing tca cross for the 1rst time or the trained doctor who probably had to do a course and earn a certificate todo the crossing properly and who'salready treated hundreds of scar patients? You, who haveto use a mirror to see where to apply the acid, or the doctor, who is standing and has much better control of the acid application and of the result and the safety of the acid? Is it worth it saving a few hundred bucks and risking not having the desired result or worse something going bad?
All well-meaning questions with the purpose to make you think about these things not to ignite an argument again.
Again, you prove to everyone that your logic is not always sound with your own argument. I believe I've been consistent with my thoughts, opinions, and descriptions but maybe it's you who is unable to comprehend for theumpteenth time. I think you're a little slow and unable to follow reasoning.
The doctor knew where my major scar was... it's kinda obvious.She just didn't apply TCA to all of it - just the corner of it. She has many years of experience and was confident in doing TCA as she had conveyed to me during my consultation; yet, she missed most of the scar. I thought she got it because the area was all red when she showed me with the mirror. So you're saying people have to make two visits for TCA to get it done right once? Or are you saying I should mark every scar and its borders and pretty much tell the doctor where the centers of the scars are? Wait, that's kinda like saying I know my face better than she does. See where your logic fails?If someone has 50 scars, could you see how this would not be feasible? The doctor would kick you out faster than you can mark all of the scars.
The reason I don't recommend people do TCA Cross is because I have to group everybody, otherwise I'd say some people can do it themselves.I should have said "can be dangerous" instead of "is dangerous." People have successfully done it themselves. Some people don't want to pay money so it's their prerogative to do it themselves. As long as they know the risks, they should have all of the info to reach success and reduce risks.
Who do I think will do a better job at Crossing? How about this question: who looks at his/her face more? You or the doctor? I promise you that people look at their faces way longer than the few seconds the doctor sees when he/she does TCA Cross. It's a mixed bag in that doctors know the technical stuff better but I truly believe patients know the sizes and centers of their scars way better. Good luck finding a doctor that will let you tell them where to exactly place the TCA. Have you seen TCA being applied on Instagram/YouTube? Some doctors are good while some are careless. Have you read reviews of TCA Cross results on RealSelf? People doing it themselves have messed up but people were also messed up by doctors.
7 hours ago, Amanda Hall said:
The doctor knew where my major scar was... it's kinda obvious.She just didn't apply TCA to all of it - just the corner of it.
How about this question: who looks at his/her face more? You or the doctor? I promise you that people look at their faces way longer than the few seconds the doctor sees when he/she does TCA Cross.
Maybe u need to find a better doctor then.
Exactly! U know your skin best. Hence my suggestion to mark / point your scars and let the specialist treat them.
7 hours ago, Amanda Hall said:Good luck finding a doctor that will let you tell them where to exactly place the TCA.
Thanks. I don't see a problem with that.
Keyword: respectful communication.
At my last visit to my derm I wasn't happy with the prescribed topical. I told him that from past experience I'm afraid it's too irritating for my sensitive skin and asked him what he thought about another topical that I had read good reviews about, if he thinks it's suitable for the problem and my skin. I left the clinic with the preferred topical and a cordial "see you at the next appointment" smile from the doctor.It's all in the communication 😉
As for the rest, I think I made my point clear. Whoever understood, understood.
17 hours ago, Sisi90 said:Maybe u need to find a better doctor then.
Exactly! U know your skin best. Hence my suggestion to mark / point your scars and let the specialist treat them.
Thanks. I don't see a problem with that.
Keyword: respectful communication.
At my last visit to my derm I wasn't happy with the prescribed topical. I told him that from past experience I'm afraid it's too irritating for my sensitive skin and asked him what he thought about another topical that I had read good reviews about, if he thinks it's suitable for the problem and my skin. I left the clinic with the preferred topical and a cordial "see you at the next appointment" smile from the doctor.It's all in the communication 😉
As for the rest, I think I made my point clear. Whoever understood, understood.
That's kinda my point.... you get good and bad doctors. When I say that it's best for people to see a doctor, usually, it's a good thing. Sometimes it's bad. This is where my gray area comes in -we can get into the nitty gritty of things but that's too long of a response. Going to a doctor for a consultation is always a good first step. However, I encourage people to compare that visit with information found through other sources.
Do you think this doctor has good TCA form? I think I can do a better job myself. Please refrain from responding to this because we all know your thoughts. He charges $600 for this procedure, I think. If I'm wrong, someone should correct me. I think that's too expensive for this type of treatment.
1 hour ago, Amanda Hall said:That's kinda my point.... you get good and bad doctors. When I say that it's best for people to see a doctor, usually, it's a good thing. Sometimes it's bad. This is where my gray area comes in -we can get into the nitty gritty of things but that's too long of a response. Going to a doctor for a consultation is always a good first step. However, I encourage people to compare that visit with information found through other sources.
Do you think this doctor has good TCA form? I think I can do a better job myself. Please refrain from responding to this because we all know your thoughts. He charges $600 for this procedure, I think. If I'm wrong, someone should correct me. I think that's too expensive for this type of treatment.
Coming up with examples of bad and greedy doctors isn't very convincing.In London you can get TCA cross treatment for 600by some irresponsible quack orfor as much as 135 by a reputable well-published doctor. It's up to you to do your research on the doctor, to ask around for reviews, to screen them in a consultation.
So you conveniently use examples of bad doctors charging high prices, but that doesn't prove it's better to get tca cross or any treatmentat home rather than done by a skilled specialist. If this was the case, people wouldn't be saving up and traveling abroad to see the 1% top specialists like Rullan, Henningsen to give themselves the best chance of correcting their scars.
I find it funny, though. You seem to advocate so passionately tca cross on your own, tell everybody what bad apples doctors are and that users here are more knowledgeable, while at the same time you are getting treatment by probably the best doctor in the world Dr Rullan. Just saying.
If that doesn't prove my point that it's better and safer to get treatments by professionalsand not to do them yourself and that professionals are more competent than the fellow forum members, I don't know what does.
1 hour ago, Sisi90 said:Coming up with examples of bad and greedy doctors isn't very convincing.In London you can get TCA cross treatment for 600by some irresponsible quack orfor as much as 135 by a reputable well-published doctor. It's up to you to do your research on the doctor, to ask around for reviews, to screen them in a consultation.
So you conveniently use examples of bad doctors charging high prices, but that doesn't prove it's better to get tca cross or any treatmentat home rather than done by a skilled specialist. If this was the case, people wouldn't be saving up and traveling abroad to see the 1% top specialists like Rullan, Henningsen to give themselves the best chance of correcting their scars.
I find it funny, though. You seem to advocate so passionately tca cross on your own, tell everybody what bad apples doctors are and that users here are more knowledgeable, while at the same time you are getting treatment by probably the best doctor in the world Dr Rullan. Just saying.
If that doesn't prove my point that it's better and safer to get treatments by professionalsand not to do them yourself and that professionals are more competent than the fellow forum members, I don't know what does.
Your posts are so full of contradiction and show that you stumble across your own arguments. Again, I think you bring up some good points but at the same time you're a bit of an idiot. I hope the moderators block me because I that would prevent me from responding to you.
You are saying that there are bad doctors. This is precisely why there are risks even going to professionals. Does this mean I'm encouraging people to put acid on their faces from the start? No. But some people do.... and I don't have this big issue like you do. It's just a matter of perspective. Some people do their own microneedling like me. Others do chemical peels by themselves like me. I think these are safer procedures than Cross to do at home but still, I'm making a point. I've done my own research and have take it upon myself to save time and money with these procedures. You are an adult and you make your own decisions after understanding the risks.
By the way, you think everyone has access to see scar specialists. Oh, let me take weeks off of work and fly to see a scar specialist and spend lots of money. That is such a small percentage of the people we're talking about. Most people can only see their local dermatologists. How many of those do you think are experts? I respect them and their experience but it my personal choice to do my own microneedling and peels instead of pay them to do that. For TCA Cross, I'm fortunate to be near several specialists. Rullan offers Phenol which most places don't and this is the biggest reason why I saw him. I'm not paying any of these doctors to do microneedling on me since one place messed up my skin with that.
I think it's kinda stupid how you improperly describe what I said. I said SOME (minority, but still) users are more knowledgeable than doctors and I stand by that. I also said that SOME people have done their own treatments and gotten success.
Your message to users here is to get off this forum and to see local doctors for consultations. Why are they here in the first place then? Every post here should be "Go see a doctor. End of story." Right??? Idiot.