Hello OP and thanks for sharing your journey with us!! I've received subcision last week as well but it's really different from your description and is definitely not what I had expected. First of all the cost is, compared to other treatment (lasers etc.) offered in my derm's office, negligible. She charges about 900 bucks for RF needling and 600 bucks for Vbeam, but when it comes to subcision it's only 90 bucks¦yeah 90 bucks, which is so not her style. Also instead of injected numbing agent I had topical numbing cream (And yet it hurt like crazy!!). And to my greatest confusion is that unlike almost everyone has described (even those who performed self dermastamping) I didn't hear any popping sound during the whole treatment. Indeed my scars are quite shallow but I assume there are scar tissues nonetheless?

In my derm's defense she said in some cases the scar tissues have become very thick and hence the popping sound. I just feel like what I've undergone might not be the full strength subcision.

What'd you guys think?

Well the good news is, that is ultra cheap, so if the procedure did little, it's not a huge chunk of money down the drain. That being said, the best thing you can do is be patient, eat healthy and take good care of your skin/wounds. Are you suctioning as well? Any regimen you are following now?

FYI - My scars were very tethered down and quite old, so there's a very good chance that the popping was due to this. I could feel the Dr's hand shaking while he tried to use his muscles to force the needle to cut through the bands - it's quite the bond! If they are more shallow, then perhaps this is not the case.

My biggest concern would be that she only used a numbing topical cream. Ouch! You're one tough cookie, Darlin'. That *may* be why she charged you less? Anaesthetic for anything usually doesn't come cheap. In my mind, though, completely worth paying for. If you have it done again, maybe ask if it's an option (if you would rather)?

On a related note regarding subcision, I just found this article now:

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/48307/1/dv08281.pdf

The most interesting part I found was this, "Scar remodeling is a continuous process, and it cannot be considered to be in a steady state until at least 2 years post-wounding."

We have all been saying to wait for a few weeks to a few months, but two years?! Wow! Who knew?!

 

Damn. My doctor charges $100 for Vbeam Perfecta and that includes Temples, Cheeks and Forehead.. And $300 for subcision. Where are you located and do you mind disclosing who performed it?

And to answer your question it's really depends on how she performed it.. Shallow scars can undeniably be improved no matter what anyone says.. there's still some sort of scar tissue pulling the skin and causing the dent.

Do you have pictures of your treatment? My appointment is on the 25th!

See http://www.georgeyangmd.com/before-after-gallery-new-york-city/subcision-for-acne-scarring/

http://www.georgeyangmd.com/before-after-gallery-new-york-city/subcision-for-acne-scarring/

Thanks for getting back to me with so much info!! I will pm you about the derm but to give an idea, given the location her office rent must be just as outrageous, plus she has some pretty fancy background so that explains (to some extent) about the cost.

As much as I hope to share all my experiences with you guys, I myself can't even stand examine my scars in the mirror. It hurts and at this point I still couldn't get over it, so maybe no pics..But I will put everything into words for you guys!!

I will include details of my treatment in my reply to MissBiscuit. Take a look and you will know why I feel unsure about this.

And I hope ur subcision goes superb!

Well the good news is, that is ultra cheap, so if the procedure did little, it's not a huge chunk of money down the drain. That being said, the best thing you can do is be patient, eat healthy and take good care of your skin/wounds. Are you suctioning as well? Any regimen you are following now?

Thank you for starting the thread it's immensely helpful!

I shall share the complete procedure. On my first visit my derm suggested radio frequency microneedling and added that this procedure carries some "subcision effect" because the heat plus needles will break up the bonded tissue or something like that. Not impossible to picture the working principle so I chose to buy it. But personally I believe that since subcision involves horizontal insertion and cutting back and forth, RF needling's subcision feature must be weaker. So that's why I insisted for subcision this time, and she said she would perform subcision after the scheduled RFN. In the case of RFN topical anesthesia always works fine for me, and she never mentioned the injected one.

So she gave a much less intensive RFN than usual and started subcision, with a thin needle of course. There's no way I would know exactly HOW she performed it because every time she put the needle in, it hurt hellishly. I am usually a tough cookie when it comes to addressing scars but that's just bastardly torturing. I begged for termination leaving 4 scars untreated. She said my skin was ultra sensitive because it's already inflamed from RFN. (btw I wanted a full strength subcision from the very beginning but my derm thought the result from solely subcision would be nowhere close from RFN itself, so she preferred the two combined for me to try out subcision for once. okay now it sounds like she's pushing the pricey RFN but maybe that's what she truly think IDKshe's over all really nice and knowledgable. I mean she never pushed laser to me.)

The whole subcision didn't last very long. 5-10 minutes maybe? I think I have 20ish scars, all quite shallow (shallower than the guy's after 5 subcision and mosaic and everything. small. but a lot. covered on my cheeks.)

I wonder what would an early intervention caused to the still remodeling scars in my case. In yours the results are just astonishing. My guess is that you have just a little collagen loss and the atrophies is predominately caused by tethered tissues. Way to go girl!

 

Damn. My doctor charges $100 for Vbeam Perfecta and that includes Temples, Cheeks and Forehead.. And $300 for subcision. Where are you located and do you mind disclosing who performed it?

And to answer your question it's really depends on how she performed it.. Shallow scars can undeniably be improved no matter what anyone says.. there's still some sort of scar tissue pulling the skin and causing the dent.

Do you have pictures of your treatment? My appointment is on the 25th!

See http://www.georgeyangmd.com/before-after-gallery-new-york-city/subcision-for-acne-scarring/

http://www.georgeyangmd.com/before-after-gallery-new-york-city/subcision-for-acne-scarring/

Thanks for getting back to me with so much info!! I will pm you about the derm but to give an idea, given the location her office rent must be just as outrageous, plus she has some pretty fancy background so that explains (to some extent) about the cost.

As much as I hope to share all my experiences with you guys, I myself can't even stand examine my scars in the mirror. It hurts and at this point I still couldn't get over it, so maybe no pics..But I will put everything into words for you guys!!

I will include details of my treatment in my reply to MissBiscuit. Take a look and you will know why I feel unsure about this.

And I hope ur subcision goes superb!

Hey Darlin',

I understand if you don't want to post pictures - I know it's not easy. But, and as hard as it can be to do so, taking before pictures of your scars will allow you to watch your progress. I think if I hadn't taken before photos, I wouldn't have realised the extent to which my scars have improved. I think we become so used to seeing ourselves with scars that even when they are improved, we still assume it's as bad. Do it for yourself, if nobody else

Feel free to PM me if it makes you feel more comfortable too

x

My first ever dermaroller and dermapen are on their way to me now I'm nervous, but excited! Fingers crossed this helps some of the ones that subcision didn't quite get to as well, and the ones the Dr missed. I will be getting another subcision down the line though.

Add prp like ur doctor said

Add prp like ur doctor said

I'm not upset enough with my skin to lay down that kind of money on something that doesn't have many reviews other than celebrity endorsements.

Yes, I totally agree. There has been no real science behind this to show that it has any real effect on scars. Throwing money away for what potentially is just snake oil seems silly. Even if it did have somewhat of an effect, I think it would be marginal at best, since the subcision is doing the heavy lifting in terms of "lifting" up the scarring.

 

Add prp like ur doctor said

I'm not upset enough with my skin to lay down that kind of money on something that doesn't have many reviews other than celebrity endorsements.

5 week update?

Hey MissBiscuit, I forgot to tell you, my derm told me that one month was enough downtime, and he scheduled a second subcision for me next week. This time I'll ask him to focus on my most bothering scars, that way ill be more happy if there's any improvement

Hey MissBiscuit, I forgot to tell you, my derm told me that one month was enough downtime, and he scheduled a second subcision for me next week. This time I'll ask him to focus on my most bothering scars, that way ill be more happy if there's any improvement

Have him mark the scars. Bring your own Surgical pen if you have to. It's important to be assertive as it's your face and money.

Hey MissBiscuit, I forgot to tell you, my derm told me that one month was enough downtime, and he scheduled a second subcision for me next week. This time I'll ask him to focus on my most bothering scars, that way ill be more happy if there's any improvement

Fantastic! Good luck, darling, and keep me posted I think Robertitoo has a good point too. x

5 week update?

Hey Robertitoo,

Not much more to report on right now. I keep catching myself in unflattering reflections (like the reflection from my phone screen), which puts me in a panic, but when I see myself in a real mirror, it's all good. Nevertheless, I will be going for a second round of subcision. I'd like to find a different Dr, if I'm honest. The one I had was fine, but he did leave a couple or scars at the incision site, and Ive heard that not everyone experiences that. The girls at his front desk said that it's not a common procedure there, so I'm guessing he just doesn't get as much practice to get the right technique. In any case, I'm still happy with the overall results!

As mentioned earlier, I also ordered a dermapen and a dermaroller and will be receiving that within a week now. I went to buy the numbing cream, but almost fell over when I saw the price was $60 (instead of the $16 I thought she had quoted). Needless to say, I returned that and will use icepacks for numbing instead.

I've also been using rosehip oil on my face twice a day, and ordered the vitamin C serum from Owndoc for use with the roller and pen.

If anyone has any suggestions of good subcision Dr's about (in the general area of BC, Canada), could they let me know?

Oh! And the lump is still there but has gone down significantly. I can't tell if massaging is making it better or worse, but I can sure feel that it's there after I've massaged it - that's probably the thing that is the most sore from this entire procedure, and still its not high on the pain-scale.

 

5 week update?

Hey Robertitoo,

Not much more to report on right now. I keep catching myself in unflattering reflections (like the reflection from my phone screen), which puts me in a panic, but when I see myself in a real mirror, it's all good. Nevertheless, I will be going for a second round of subcision. I'd like to find a different Dr, if I'm honest. The one I had was fine, but he did leave a couple or scars at the incision site, and Ive heard that not everyone experiences that. The girls at his front desk said that it's not a common procedure there, so I'm guessing he just doesn't get as much practice to get the right technique. In any case, I'm still happy with the overall results!

As mentioned earlier, I also ordered a dermapen and a dermaroller and will be receiving that within a week now. I went to buy the numbing cream, but almost fell over when I saw the price was $60 (instead of the $16 I thought she had quoted). Needless to say, I returned that and will use icepacks for numbing instead.

I've also been using rosehip oil on my face twice a day, and ordered the vitamin C serum from Owndoc for use with the roller and pen.

If anyone has any suggestions of good subcision Dr's about (in the general area of BC, Canada), could they let me know?

Oh! And the lump is still there but has gone down significantly. I can't tell if massaging is making it better or worse, but I can sure feel that it's there after I've massaged it - that's probably the thing that is the most sore from this entire procedure, and still its not high on the pain-scale.

Great! Which pen did you end up ordering?

 

5 week update?

Hey Robertitoo,

Not much more to report on right now. I keep catching myself in unflattering reflections (like the reflection from my phone screen), which puts me in a panic, but when I see myself in a real mirror, it's all good. Nevertheless, I will be going for a second round of subcision. I'd like to find a different Dr, if I'm honest. The one I had was fine, but he did leave a couple or scars at the incision site, and Ive heard that not everyone experiences that. The girls at his front desk said that it's not a common procedure there, so I'm guessing he just doesn't get as much practice to get the right technique. In any case, I'm still happy with the overall results!

As mentioned earlier, I also ordered a dermapen and a dermaroller and will be receiving that within a week now. I went to buy the numbing cream, but almost fell over when I saw the price was $60 (instead of the $16 I thought she had quoted). Needless to say, I returned that and will use icepacks for numbing instead.

I've also been using rosehip oil on my face twice a day, and ordered the vitamin C serum from Owndoc for use with the roller and pen.

If anyone has any suggestions of good subcision Dr's about (in the general area of BC, Canada), could they let me know?

Oh! And the lump is still there but has gone down significantly. I can't tell if massaging is making it better or worse, but I can sure feel that it's there after I've massaged it - that's probably the thing that is the most sore from this entire procedure, and still its not high on the pain-scale.

Great! Which pen did you end up ordering?

I ordered them off of Owndoc. Swore I ordered at least the 2mm roller, because that is the one Mr Matt told me he used, but I received the 1.5mm dermaroller and 1mm dermapen. Looking at my receipt details, that is what I said I ordered, so now I think I'm totally losing it. Oh well! Best to start small and work my way up, I suppose, right?

I also got the vitamin c serum, which I am excited to use. There is mainly one scar that just looks like a bad smile line and I cannot wait to start needling that bad boy and at least soften it up. Will start this weekend. Fingers crossed, ladies and gents! x

wow great results

 

 

 

 

 

5 week update?

 

Hey Robertitoo,

Not much more to report on right now. I keep catching myself in unflattering reflections (like the reflection from my phone screen), which puts me in a panic, but when I see myself in a real mirror, it's all good. Nevertheless, I will be going for a second round of subcision. I'd like to find a different Dr, if I'm honest. The one I had was fine, but he did leave a couple or scars at the incision site, and Ive heard that not everyone experiences that. The girls at his front desk said that it's not a common procedure there, so I'm guessing he just doesn't get as much practice to get the right technique. In any case, I'm still happy with the overall results!

As mentioned earlier, I also ordered a dermapen and a dermaroller and will be receiving that within a week now. I went to buy the numbing cream, but almost fell over when I saw the price was $60 (instead of the $16 I thought she had quoted). Needless to say, I returned that and will use icepacks for numbing instead.

I've also been using rosehip oil on my face twice a day, and ordered the vitamin C serum from Owndoc for use with the roller and pen.

If anyone has any suggestions of good subcision Dr's about (in the general area of BC, Canada), could they let me know?

Oh! And the lump is still there but has gone down significantly. I can't tell if massaging is making it better or worse, but I can sure feel that it's there after I've massaged it - that's probably the thing that is the most sore from this entire procedure, and still its not high on the pain-scale.

 

Great! Which pen did you end up ordering?

I ordered them off of Owndoc. Swore I ordered at least the 2mm roller, because that is the one Mr Matt told me he used, but I received the 1.5mm dermaroller and 1mm dermapen. Looking at my receipt details, that is what I said I ordered, so now I think I'm totally losing it. Oh well! Best to start small and work my way up, I suppose, right?

I also got the vitamin c serum, which I am excited to use. There is mainly one scar that just looks like a bad smile line and I cannot wait to start needling that bad boy and at least soften it up. Will start this weekend. Fingers crossed, ladies and gents! x

Hi MissBuscuit

Can you update us on anything? Wondering how your skin is looking now after your subcision and needling. Loved following your thread here! Most interesting!

Hi Ang,

Well it's been a long time since I had the procedure done now. I got locked out of my account for some time, so I was unable to reply earlier than now until that whole issue got sorted. 

I've been a bit upset with my skin as of late, but I realised that a lot of that has to do with weight loss that I've experienced over the summer. I much prefer some fat to my face, as I find that it makes the scarring less noticeable. I was previously thinking that the scarring either hadn't improved or got worse, but now looking back on all of the photos, I can see that it's improved some. Certainly not as amazing as one might like, but I know that it takes a few times to get noticeable results. 

I had a second procedure done on two smaller areas last month, so I'm still waiting on those nodules to go away altogether. Otherwise, I think what I'd really love to do now is some TCA while I have a bit of time off, but we will see

Again, sorry for the lapse in response time!

Hi missbiscuit-

what are your nodules like? do you get them in most spots that you get subsicion on? are they noticeable to others? 

thinking about doing a subcision on some shallow scars but dont want the nodules to be worse than the scars are now!

Hi BlueDog,

I didn't get nodules in all of the areas, but I have experienced a few of them over two procedures. I think there were two from the first time (definitely noticeable) and now one around each area that I had the procedure done on this time. One I can only feel under the skin, but cannot see, and the other one you can see, but I don't suppose anyone really thinks much of it. This time around I haven't done heat/cold on the areas, but have done more scar tissue massage. I think what really made one of my first ones so bad was that I was irritating it. I panicked, so I tried everything on it: changed between hot compress and cold compress, massaged it, and oiled it, and you name it. Especially the heat (I applied a cloth that was way too hot) made it red and angry looking, so that just called attention to it more. So whatever you do, let it alone!

I suppose at the end of the day, you have to weigh whether 2-3 months with a slowly-fading nodule is worth the longer term effects of having smoother skin. I personally don't know anyone in my life who has said to me at any point during these procedures or healing time, "oh boy, remember when you had that big nodule on your face?". It's really so much about what you notice about yourself - we are our own worst critics. People might see it, but even if it really registers with them when they first notice, soon enough it isn't a focal point anymore. Plus, if you've ever experienced cystic acne, then it's not any worse than what you've dealt with in the past already
 

thanks for the reply!

its a tough call, because I have some scars that arent that bad. just in the wrong lighting, awful. and i have a job that requires me to interact with people all day.

Alright! It's been something close to a year since my first subcision. Unfortunately I ended up losing a lot of weight from an onset of long term anxiety, and my scars became more noticeable again. It should definitely be noted that more fat on the face helps to hide scarring. Along with school and skin woes, I'm now experiencing a battle against my mind so as to ensure I get enough calories a day. Holy canolli! Talk about first world problems...

SO! In late summer, I had a second subcision on only a couple of spots (since I wouldn't have any time to take off of work), and those two small places took really well! I can feel the collagen built under them, and the areas are flush with the undamaged skin around them. On the flip side,  any scars directly around those areas looked more depressed and obvious than ever, which lead me to my third round of subcision yesterday. 

I had to take an Ativan (anti-anxiety) just prior to the procedure this time, although I think that just made me really sleepy after it was all said and done, rather than calming me during the event itself. I noticed that the Dr was doing some things differently this time:

1. Last time, he let me mark my scars with what I can only assume was a surgical pen, but this time he had me mark them with some sort of antiseptic (iodine perhaps?) on a q-tip. He nay'ed a lot of spots I was interested in targeting,  saying that boxcar scars and scars in naturally folding areas aren't good candidates for subcision. This is quite to the contrary of what I've read on both forums and papers, so it had me questioning him more than ever. In fact, I've read medical articles about how subcision is often used FOR wrinkles, such as laugh lines and forehead creases. And I think the boxcar scar goes without saying - I'm sure we have all read up on how they can be treatable with this method.

2. He did the anaesthetic injections in a different and more painful way this time - he would insert the needle, and then after he had injected some, he would tap the side of the end of the needle to re-adjust the positioning of the syringe, and inject more. This is, of course, an assumption - I had my eyes closed, so I couldn't see, but it's what it felt like. There was a distinct pain with the way he was tapping the end of the needle though, and I could tell it was moving it within my skin. Ooph! Much more painful than the other two times.

3. This time I asked him to work on two scars that he previously said would not benefit from the procedure. They are white linear scars from some sort of trauma (which he guessed previously was from dermabrasion).  I know that the outer scar won't benefit from subcision, but they did have a depressed appearance to them, and I was willing to take the risk by trying. 

4. After the procedure, he put small round discs of surgical tape over the incision points, which he has not done before. He said to keep them on for a day, so I've only just taken them off an hour or so ago. Seems strange and almost worrying to me that he's only now (on round three) decided to get more on top of wound care...

5. The number one thing that he was doing differently, which has solidified my wavering consideration to find another doctor, was to constantly try to tell me to try fillers instead. No matter how much I told him no, I want to stick with this for now, he continued to tell me the benefits of fillers and why subcision won't help much because 'as you age' blah blah blah, and then continued to make my anxiety worse as he rambled on about how I'm going to look worse when I get older. I think that goes without saying anyways - most people's physical beauty declines over time, but gees...

Last night was by far the most uncomfortable sleep I've had of all of the subcisions. I was very conscious to stay sleeping on my back (so hard for a side sleeper!), but the odd time that I found my cheek on my pillow, the pain woke me up. I'm not sure why it's worse this time, but I'll keep an eye on it. Does anyone else who has had this done find it odd that my Dr never uses compression bandages when he's done? Of all of the photos I've seen, only one other person has seemed to have had the same kind of swelling and bruising that I have - I wasn't sure if this was due to the immediate after care or if it was just luck of the draw.

Luckily, I happened upon a plastic surgeon in MY city who does subcision! I had actually called their office about a different procedure altogether, but as the nurse discussed different options, I realised she was describing subcision as one. I wish these offices would list this on their websites! In any case, I had already paid a good chunk of deposit for yesterdays procedure with the previous doctor, so I went through with it, but not having to travel for 7-10 hours immediately after having needles swiped around inside your face sounds ideal enough!     

In the flurry of it all, I forgot to take before photos of all angles of my face. I had taken one photo on my phone (will try to remember to upload later) of my left cheek about a month prior, but it had no relation to the procedure. I asked him to only work on my cheeks this time. I will be doing suction, as per usual, plus eating obscene amounts of food (especially oranges), drinking effervescent vitamin c tablets, taking New Nordic collagen tablets, and using Reviva Alpha Lipoic Acid, Vitamin C Ester, and DMAE cream (as per Mr Matt's suggestion). I would also like to dermaroll more often now. Does anyone have suggestions as to how long they waited afterward subcision to do it?

Okay - here is a 'before' picture of my left cheek, as promised. This was taken last month at my lowest weight. The second picture was just taken a moment ago, with subcision having been performed three days ago. A lot of this 'improvement' is swelling, so if you're only just finding out about subcision now, please keep this in mind - this is *not* the final product.

You can clearly see the three incision points (unfortunately the big pink spot on the left is just hyperpigmentation from a zit) and the bruising. I started to suction yesterday night, as the scarred areas seem fairly flush with the rest of my skin level. I can already feel the hard lumps under my skin, but I'm not going to worry about that too much right now, as this isn't my first time at the rodeo and I know that (at least in my history) they go away over time. 

Unfortunately, due to the swelling, I can't fully tell where the Dr has subcised, so I've just been suctioning the entire cheek area so that I don't miss anything. 🙂

I swelled like crazy too! And I got those lumps that are just now starting to go away (it has been over two months)... Doing next treatment in less than a month so I guess I will have to get new lumps then haha...

Good luck... I see some similarities in my scarring to yours but I'm guessing you took a picture there in the worst light possible...

1 hour ago, il90 said:

I swelled like crazy too! And I got those lumps that are just now starting to go away (it has been over two months)... Doing next treatment in less than a month so I guess I will have to get new lumps then haha...

Good luck... I see some similarities in my scarring to yours but I'm guessing you took a picture there in the worst light possible... 

 

Oh thank God! It's nice to know things haven't gone horribly awry when it comes to needles being jabbed in your face

Will this be your second treatment then? I have to say that even though the before picture looks really bad, it was definitely better than my first before picture. I'm so grateful that I have kept pictures as I go to look back on. The biggest hurdle for me to get over is to distinguish what is due to my loss of facial fat, rather than whether or not subcision worked. I'm sure I'll see improvements once I gain my weight back!

And yes, I took that in the worst lighting possibly. I unlocked my phone, forgetting that I had the camera open before I locked it, and so I was met with the look of my face that way. I decided to take a picture anyways so that I could point out to my doctor the areas that are most noticeable for me. I would have never otherwise tried to take a picture in that lighting. Still glad I did though, so that I have a baseline.  Are you keeping track of your progress with photos?