Acne.org Products
I stand by what I said. Deep FX has more than a maximum ablation depth of 700 microns and Active FX has more than a maximum ablation depth of 120 microns. I don't know where you are getting that chart but Lumenis is constantly updating the software to the Ultrapulse and I hardly think the numbers on their charts from 2012 are a lie.
You obviously know more than anyone else, even doctors. With that said, this debate is pointless.
I will say again that not all fractional co2 are the same and making such a bold statement is misleading to people new to laser treatment. Following that belief, Active FX is no different than Deep FX and MixTo is comparable to Repair. I totally disagree. I don't even believe Repair is the same as Deep FX. I believe Repair is comparable to Total FX.
Btw, most doctors are not going to do the maximum with any laser. What one doctor considers aggressive, another experienced with acne scarring may consider moderate or standard according to safety guidelines for your skin type. That's one reason I try to understand a laser and settings before deciding to invest $1000s in treatment. If you are not attacking the scar at the base and using aggressive settings, I believe you can expect minimum results.
Chart is from here - http://www.mixtoskinresurfacing.com/downloads/CassutoInterviewAestheticTrends.pdf
The re:pair = deepfx = smartxide at proper settings. The mixto is on a lower level (but even then it can reach 500+ microns). This covers 80% of lasers out there.
I'm not even sure why active fx is in the discussion nor how you can compare re:pair to the total fx. Total fx is a combination of basically 2 different lasers Total fx (deepfx + activefx) gives a superficial treatment combined with a deep treatment - it's just combining the benefits of two separate lasers into one. Yes it's "co2" but it works like an erbium. The smartxide has this option built in as well and most doctors do a re:store treatment at the same time as the re:pair. Totalfx = re:store+re:pair. Re:pair and Deepfx only give a deep treatment.
ps. thought this pic was cool to give a graphical representation of what we're talking about although it's not to scale:
Deep FX targets deep and is only used on areas with deep damage. It does not resurface the epidermis. You don't peel with Deep FX like you do with Repair, mixTo or Total FX.
Active FX is a fractional co2 laser and you said all fractional co2 lasers are the same. That's why it is in the mix. there are people on this board who have done only Active FX for scars and they experienced softening of the surface.
Anyone who has experienced Deep FX and another co2 will tell you the same thing. If you read through posts on Realself, doctors will tell you the same thing. Total FX is comparable to Repair because Repair targets deep and resurfaces the epidermis with one hand piece. Active FX is just a different hand piece for resurfacing the epidermis.
Many of the reviews on Realself under Deep FX should actually be under Total FX. I was confused by it too until I experienced both Deep FX and Total FX, as well as MixTo.
Hello acnescar123,
Thank you for starting this thread, we the new users (or those sitting on the fence) of laser treatments really need more of these; it would be really nice if acne.org did open a thread dedicated to lasers only.
Has it been two weeks post treatment now? Could you please provide a photo update on the opening post? It would be very much appreciated.
Thanks mate, stay healthy.
Acnescar123
It was Re:pair that I had not DeepFX. Darn nobody believes anything I say anymore. I got no results from Dermabrasion or CO2 resurfacing. I believe both have a place, but they do not work for deep acne scars. I think you might want to check that chart you posted because it looks oddly similar to the chart presented in this report dated 2007.
http://www.mixtoskinresurfacing.com/downloads/CassutoInterviewAestheticTrends.pdf
See I told you I was doing research way back then. That came from my Laser Link thread and man a lot of those links don't work anymore.
I believe you Dudley. 
I have read of skin tightening 2+ years after repair in cases related to anti-aging. I haven't heard of scars continuing to improve but I would think tighter skin would also improve the appearance of scars. Did you peel after Repair? I assume you did.
Here is an example of someone's Total FX recovery that's listed under Deep FX on Realself:
http://www.realself.com/review/Denver-Deep-FX-Too-early-yet
These are obvious Deep FX recoveries (one had co2 done over his nose):
http://www.realself.com/review/Just-had-Deep-FX-done-to-my-face
http://www.realself.com/review/Deep-fx-nasty-recovery-first-few-days-immediate-skin-tightening
With Deep FX, there is bleeding, swelling and oozing. There is some flaking of the skin but Deep FX doesn't resurface the epidermis. If you are only targeting dermal damage and your goal is shallowing of scars, breaking down tethered fibers, and skin tightening, Deep FX is great. If you also have sharp edges on your scars, superficial scarring and texture issues, Active FX is needed. You can't shave down edges with Deep FX. That is why they have Total FX. Fraxel Repair treats both dermal and superficial damage.
Not sure how you can say Total FX is equal to Repair+Restore.
I know nothing about Smartxide.
Hello acnescar123,
Thank you for starting this thread, we the new users (or those sitting on the fence) of laser treatments really need more of these; it would be really nice if acne.org did open a thread dedicated to lasers only.
Has it been two weeks post treatment now? Could you please provide a photo update on the opening post? It would be very much appreciated.
Thanks mate, stay healthy.
I've going to wait until the end of the week (4 weeks after the procedure) and will update with new photos, as from every study I've read - I didn't see any drops in improvement between 1 month -> 6 months. So I assume most of any swelling/microswelling etc would be gone and therefore can provide an accurate update.
Acnescar123
It was Re:pair that I had not DeepFX. Darn nobody believes anything I say anymore. I got no results from Dermabrasion or CO2 resurfacing. I believe both have a place, but they do not work for deep acne scars. I think you might want to check that chart you posted because it looks oddly similar to the chart presented in this report dated 2007.
http://www.mixtoskinresurfacing.com/downloads/CassutoInterviewAestheticTrends.pdf
See I told you I was doing research way back then. That came from my Laser Link thread and man a lot of those links don't work anymore.
I wasn't doubting you - was just saying it was interesting you had no results from dermabrasion and old school co2 as usually they work quite well (but have risk of side effects). I meant to say re:pair (as in the second sentence 
) .
AcneScar123, I was just pulling your leg. I was totally disappointed by Dermabrasion and CO2 resurfacing. You do want to confirm the data on that chart though since the article came out in 2007. I don't have the inclination to begin researching again there is too much to look at on plastic surgery.
You do want to confirm the data on that chart though since the article came out in 2007. I don't have the inclination to begin researching again there is too much to look at on plastic surgery.
"Deep FX at 15 mJ fluence achieves 450 ¼ (0.45 mm) depth of ablation and around 300-800 ¼ more coagulation below the base (total 1 mm)"
"Deep FX at 35-40 mJ fluence that is commonly used for deep scars reaches up to total 1.2 mm." (so basically an extra 200 microns total)
Here's another reference from 2013 that matches what I said above:
The re:pair does seem to have an actual ablation depth of 1.6mm, but it delivers less power to the actual columns. So it basically uses its power to go deeper via a smaller spot size rather than concentrating it's energy into the column. There is also no "coagulation zone" after the ablation zone so it confirms the theory that all of the energy goes into reaching as deep as possible. Again, I'm not sure what's more important - the additional depth or the heat et al going into the column. I think both have an effect as otherwise dermabrasion/old school co2/erbium lasers would have no effect and microneedling would have a ton of effect (if only depth was important.)
Another option is doing multiple passes - you're bound to overlap some of the columns and increase the depth or run an erbium laser (or activefx) on the skin first which would ablate the first 100-200 microns + provide the benefits of erbium treatments (if there are any). IMO the goal is to get to 700-1000 microns of ablation and I think with the proper doctor - he can get there with any fractional co2 laser. This is why multiple treatments are so important because no matter what you do - you're only doing it to a portion of your skin.
I also don't see the point of linking to random posts on realself - when there's no mention of settings used. Total fx is the same as doing a re:pair + re:store in terms of any metric you use. Deepfx = Re:pair and Activefx = Re:store. The re:pair does go deeper however.
acnescar123,
Hey mate, just out of interest, how does the texture of your skin feel now? Toughened, leathery, or normal-pliable?
It feels exactly the same except a bit smoother but drier. It's still a bit swollen in spots though - can feel "valleys" when running finger over certain spots.
One issue I have with Mixto after doing more reading, is that it is a continuous wave laser, which is outdated technology. All of the traditional full field C02 lasers in of the past were continuous wave lasers. The Lumenis Deep FX I believe is Ultrapulsed, which results in less lateral spread of heat. Lumenis says that this reduces negative side effects since most of the down sides (scarring, pigmentation, white out) are caused by bulk heating of the skin. On the Mixto website, it says explicitly that while the laser is fractional, 100% of the skin is heated because the heat is not contained in a tight column around the hole drilled by the laser. The heat spreads everywhere. Mixto seems to spin this as an advantage, saying that more heat causes more collagen tightening. That may be true, but there are also higher complications from bulk heating. Lumenis directly contradicts the statement by Mixto.
It just doesn't seem as sophisticated as Repair or Deep FX.
acnescar123,
Hey mate, just out of interest, how does the texture of your skin feel now? Toughened, leathery, or normal-pliable?
It feels exactly the same except a bit smoother but drier. It's still a bit swollen in spots though - can feel "valleys" when running finger over certain spots.
what do you mean by ''valleys''
Hmmm..
Sorry for the late reply. Hope you are healing well. I still disagree with some of your observations and don't really get the point you are trying to make. You tend to contradict yourself too. Anyway, I stand my ground. Not all fractional co2 lasers are the same. Different technology targets different issues that vary by depth.
Active FX is a fractional co2 laser with the ability to reach 100% ablation. Restore is a non-ablative erbium laser. There really is no comparison.
Good luck healing!
why no updates? im guessing you didnt get the improvement you was hoping for.
I actually got fairly good improvement and had 2 more treatments done (combination with laser (3 pulse depth), subcision, filler), was just waiting to post until everything was done + could see final result & since this thread turned into a debate about lasers.
I float in and out of the forums. What is the talk about ScarFX?
GBKderm in SD started using it - but according to their medical reports it has no real benefit + more risks compared to the deepfx, since according to them 2mm is more than enough to get the max benefits of lasers. It's useful for body scarring and hypertrophic scarring according to them though. http://clderm.com/scaar-fx-lumenis/ . If someone is in the area - they have every laser available, so maybe they can include scaarfx into the treatment.
