I continue to find stuff. Skipped about 5weeks due to not having any Lyme bacteria to clear.

We picked up though this weekon a flu bacteria of some sortwhich results in continuing the Lipoic Acid supplement( this breaks down those gut biofilms )

He alsoput me on Andrograhis herb to then clear it out and pass it. Im sneezing like crazy this week and feeling good like Im shaking off a lingering cold.

The two biggest supplements that lift shit are definitely ALA and NAC, but you take it in conjunction with certain herbs cause once you lift it youve obviously got to eliminate it from the body.

Ill do this for another week which will clear itand then we look at something else. I think Im now at around 80% of this program. Feel good in knowing Im eliminating all these old bacteria/fungus/viruses.

On 7/18/2019 at 10:23 AM, guitarman01 said:

@SCOTT242Thanks for posting this!

I should be getting back test results similar to this, but more in depth to compare in a few weeks.

So what was your treatment?

interesting that most commensals or normal bacteria seems to be in range, (unless you were taking a probiotic?)

and that yeast/ fungi was in normal range or not detected.

yet it still seems that there is a dysbiotic shift based on results.

 

 

My treatment was GI Clear 1GI Clear 4andPara 1. I felt terrible while taking these. My foot and lower back pain made me almost quit in the beginning. He said it was die off reaction, I think Iwas just reacting to some of the ingredients like I do when I eat grains, beans, dairy, or eggs.He then had me takeProbio FloraandSacro Flora.

I have tested positive for yeast/fungi overgrowth on a previous stool test.I have taken a LOT of probiotics over thelast 10 years but I don't think I was taking anything for at least a month prior to that stool sample.

I currently have sensitive skin that hurts to touch but no rash, and I have been dizzy for three days. The only thing I changed was drinking celery juice in the morning. I have quitthe juice and am impatiently waiting to feel better.

20 hours ago, Calcified said:

I agree with guitarman01, it's very interesting to see normal bacteria in range yet disbiosis.

Scott242 - my skin hurts to touch in certain areas, but I have folliculitis? do you have any folliculitis?

There are no signs of rash or inflamed hair follicles where my skin is sensitive.And its traveling around my body. My right forearm is very sensitive at the moment.

I do however have red bumps at hair follicles on my thighs. I didn't know that it was called folliculitis.

Scott242 - I have had it on inner thigh depending on clothing.

@TrueJustice, you have been undergoing months of treatments. Have you experienced any improvement in this time?

@SCOTT242That gi map test looks pretty expensive. I do see its fda approved. Did insurance help out at all with this? cost wise it seems it would be difficult to retest multiple times. is this some local dr your seeing?

as far as treatment, it looks like hes throwing the kitchen sink at the problem. personally Im not the biggest fan of that approach because you dont know whats doing what, and like you said you could have a negative reaction to something and not even know from what.

as far as antimicrobials, I like to look at individual substances one at a time. things that are proven and extensively studied such as berberine, allicin from garlic and oil of oregano etc.

for me the same applies with probiotics, too many strains can cancel the other one out or become dominant that shouldnt be.

example,

Bifidobacterium bifidumActively Changes the Gene Expression Profile Induced byLactobacillus acidophilusin Murine Dendritic Cells

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0011065

Dendritic cells (DC) play a pivotal regulatory role in activation of both the innate as well as the adaptive immune system by responding to environmental microorganisms. We have previously shown thatLactobacillus acidophilusinduces a strong production of the pro-inflammatory and Th1 polarizing cytokine IL-12 in DC, whereas bifidobacteria do not induce IL-12 but inhibit the IL-12 production induced by lactobacilli. In the present study, genome-wide microarrays were used to investigate the gene expression pattern of murine DC stimulated withLactobacillus acidophilusNCFM andBifidobacterium bifidumZ9.L. acidophilusNCFM strongly induced expression of interferon (IFN)-, other virus defence genes, and cytokine and chemokine genes related to the innate and the adaptive immune response. By contrast,B. bifidumZ9 up-regulated genes encoding cytokines and chemokines related to the innate immune response. Moreover,B. bifidumZ9 inhibited the expression of the Th1-promoting genes induced byL. acidophilusNCFM and had an additive effect on genes of the innate immune response and Th2 skewing genes

So alot of distributors are throwing these species together and don't even realize they have opposing effects.

@guitarman01Yeah he seems to have a go to template that he uses a lot. He is actually in Texas I believe. I am in CA. Everything is over the phone. Yes it is very expensive and he is cash only. I tried submitting all my bills from last year to insurance but still haven't heard anything. Because he is a D.C. Functional Medicine Dr. and not an M.D., I doubt they will cover anything. The GI map stool test is $400, DUTCH adrenal test is $250, and Organix Comprehensive Profile is $446. Plus all the supplements, plus $100 for every consult that is 15-30min. I have spent thousands with him, but over thelast 10 years post Accutane I have spentmuch more.

I am actually sort of scared now that I have been dizzy for 4 days now. My skin is still a little sensitive but seems to be getting better. The only thing I changed was drinking the celery juice in the morning for 3 or 4 days rather than my normal berry/kale/banana smoothie. It almost feels like I am drugged. I read online celery juice is an antifungal, perhaps it killed off something in my gut and I am feeling die off or something else took over that is causing this weird mental issue. Really hope this goes away soon. Almost passed out this morning upon standing. My HPA axis is definitely screwed up after the tane. I am taking next week off from work to try and relax and reset. I'll post the Organix Imentioned to see if you guys notice anything strange or that may be helpful. I'll post the DUTCH adrenal in a bit.

7 hours ago, Dubya_B said:

@TrueJustice, you have been undergoing months of treatments. Have you experienced any improvement in this time?

Hi Dubya

Yes Ive seen improvements. In a nutshellI have much more energy, I sleep better, my stomach is much better. I feel healthy again from all the kinesiology work Ive done.

What I still struggle with is cognitive function -has it improved via treatment?

The answer would be yes and no. I feel great when I get some adjustments and pressure released during treatment but a few days later Im back to feeling cloudy again in the head.

Macleod had a good post on previous page and I did ask him some questions too so hope to hear back.

Depression was a big side effect for me after Accutane so curing it is a long path unfortunately. Im looking at other things outside of kinesiology, things like meditation and transcranial magnetic stimulation. They are just two things that spring to mind.

Im open to hearing what others are doing outside of medication for treating depression?

20 hours ago, SCOTT242 said:

The GI map stool test is $400, DUTCH adrenal test is $250, and Organix Comprehensive Profile is $446. Plus all the supplements, plus $100 for every consult that is 15-30min. I have spent thousands with him, but over thelast 10 years post Accutane I have spentmuch more.

I am actually sort of scared now that I have been dizzy for 4 days now.

You might want to check Viome out. I cant fully vouch for it yet, im still waiting for results, but its alot cheaper at the moment.

stick around, il post results when I get them.

Here is a comparison. as far as dizziness headaches, lightheadedness, i've had that too. it used to be debilitating and stopped me dead in my tracks.

Also the thing with antimicrobials, you need to be real careful you dont knock down the good guys as well, thats when things could get much worse.

Can Gut Testing Unlock Your Health Mysteries?

https://summerbock.com/can-gut-testing-unlock-your-health-mysteries/

When your health remains a mystery look to your gut

My top recommended gut tests

Each of these tests have their own pros and cons, and no test is perfect. Take a moment to familiarize yourself with these so you can decide which is best for you.

1.Genova GI Effects This is one of my favorite tests because it is easy to interpret. Its designed to explain the analysis of your microbes and how they relate to your health. There are clinical association charts that tell you if you have biomarker patterns for certain diseases such as type 2 diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease, and more.³Plus, it includes a three-day collection as well as parasitology.

Genova Diagnostics also has a great guide to interpreting your results, whichyou can find here.This is a great option if you decide to do this testing with or without a doctor. The test provides your doctor with diagnostics and the interpretation guide offers you additional information so you can take research into your own hands.

2.Dr.s Data Comprehensive Stool Analysis/Parasitology x3 I like this test because its an easy test to read and understand for most people. This testevaluates aerobic and anaerobic bacteria, parasites, and yeast. The fact that it has yeast analysis is a bonus because candida overgrowth is surprisingly common.

3.Diagnostic Solutions Laboratory GI-Map Test This test reports on opportunistic organisms, normal flora, parasites, viruses, and fungi.⁴Additionally, youll get a report on any antibiotic resistant genes present and virulence factors, which are molecules created by microbes that tell us how effective they are within the gut.

4. TheViomeTest Unlike the others, this is not a diagnostic test but rather a user-friendly at home test. This means you wont need a doctor to order it and youll receive helpful tips about what you should eat and how to take better care of your health. Your doctor cant use this test to make a diagnosis.

That being said, this is considered the most comprehensive gut test on the market. Viome has access to proprietary species sequencing they got exclusive permission to utilize from the U.S. government. Viomes test is different from the rest because most labs only identify gut microbes on the genus level, which limits interpretable results. Additionally, Viome can test for microbial metabolites, revealing information about how your microbes live and reproduce.

Viome testing is incredibly accurate and advanced. Youll get data on species, metabolites, viruses, and other pathogens that arent available with any other lab test. One downside is they dont release all the information of their test to you, most likely for proprietary reasons. Instead, you get a personalized report of recommendations. As a bonus, you dont need to order this test through a lab or a doctor

@guitarman01 Thanks for the info. Viome sounds like a good alternative. 

My skin sensitivity is much better today. Dizziness is better also, almost gone. I really think I had a die off reaction from drinking the celery juice for a few days. I had a similar feeling when I took grapefruit seed extract a couple years ago after my stool test showed candida overgrowth.

Here are my Organix (urine) and DUTCH adrenal (saliva) tests. 

My take on things after years of experimenting and definitely learning is you can definitely clean gut up, you can clean liver, you can get on top of stomach issues and IBS etc - there are many ways of doing it, takes working with the right people, time and commitment.

Heres where Im uncertain that theres a complete cure:

Erectile or sexual dysfunction and/or depression.

Unless my kinesiologist has a major trick up his sleeve, Im not sure he can cure my depression completely. My belief 10 months ago when he diagnosed me with HPA dysfunction was that the depression would go once fixed. Im very grateful that my gut is better, my energy has returned and all that but my depression remains unfortunately.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is - by all means go and treat fungus, bacteria and virus issues, youll feel much better for doing it and its worth all the effort. However I just dont know about supplements being able to fully lift depression....

Sexual sides Im not that knowledgeable on, I dont suffer them. Perhaps the increased vitality from clearing all the nasty crap is a step in right direction? Couldnt hurt right clearing that stuff. On the other hand maybe depression and sex sides come from brain damage - beyond anyHPA dysfunction. Is that why some are using hyperbaric chambers to fix this damage?

I would say a person might not feel better taking antimicrobials, antifungals or antibiotics. The way alot of these work is that they are harsh on the body to have this effect.

This would strictly be an adjunct therapy. Accutane itself even functions as an antimicrobial.

I posted a study about antibiotics being able to knock down bacteria to the extent of where they never came back. So what takes its place? Even p.acnes could have served a role in health, not everyone is colonized with p. acnes, but its what some are colonized with that might "pinch hit" for lack of more optimal health promoting bacteria. meaning it can serve functions beneficial to the host, but its not optimal. but now thats gone too, or greatly reduced.

The more I dig the more I still see a possibility. I hope to stop being wrong soon.

A single bacterium restores the microbiome dysbiosis to protect bones from destruction

https://microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40168-019-0719-1

Depression and Accutane is very grey. Some still say many teenagers and young people are depressed already cause of their acne - cant say I was the happiest person taking Accutane. Could it have tipped me? Yes it could have

I do remember being excited about losing my acne but the feeling went from that to a feeling of darkness very quickly whilst on tane.

In terms of bacteria, some argue they are all knocked out by our stomach acid naturally - no need to do anything else. What about shingles though - why does that come back in people 20 years later after chicken pox?? Cause the bacteria is still there!!

My opinion is many of these viruses and bacteria can stay with us - better to knock them out for good. That doesnt necessarily cure our Accutane issues though, its just a step in the right direction. Might just mean you sleep better and have more energy- Im all for that though.

Anyway, getting out of this shit is more an art than a science Ive realised. Theres just no one way of getting out of it.....so many different paths, what might be a dead end for one person could be a door for another.

8 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

I would say a person might not feel better taking antimicrobials, antifungals or antibiotics. The way alot of these work is that they are harsh on the body to have this effect.

This would strictly be an adjunct therapy. Accutane itself even functions as an antimicrobial.

I posted a study about antibiotics being able to knock down bacteria to the extent of where they never came back. So what takes its place? Even p.acnes could have served a role in health, not everyone is colonized with p. acnes, but its what some are colonized with that might "pinch hit" for lack of more optimal health promoting bacteria. meaning it can serve functions beneficial to the host, but its not optimal. but now thats gone too, or greatly reduced.

The more I dig the more I still see a possibility. I hope to stop being wrong soon.

A single bacterium restores the microbiome dysbiosis to protect bones from destruction

https://microbiomejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40168-019-0719-1

Or what takes lactobacillus's place after high dose Ra?

Interesting study, good find.

On 7/22/2019 at 6:34 AM, Calcified said:

 

Or what takes lactobacillus's place after high dose Ra?

Interesting study, good find.

so they say something like SIBO is more likely whats coming up from the large intestine, not whats already there. From the small intestine on up lactobacillus should be the main bacteria. ive seen a few studies that lactobacillus are more resistant then bifido when it comes to antimicrobials. So if someone was able to knock this down, it could spell more trouble.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa42/f3e7260c399337f8e74faac8f8899ccce5ee.pdf

Severe Acne in Female Patients Treated with Isotretinoin is associated with Dysbiosis and its Consequences

^this study that ive posted a few times,

"Isotretinoin is associated with dysbiosis, malabsorption (with visceral fat decrease) and signs of dysimmunity. Symptoms develop more than 20 years after the intake of the medication taken at usual range and duration. A facilitating role of Propionibacterium acnes cannot be excluded. Isotretinoin is known to impair stem cells renewal and TLR2 expression in the mucosa of the small gut. These pharmacological effects, explaining the efficacy of the medication on acne (the metabolic syndrome of the pilosebaceous gland) may induce the progressive atrophy of the jejunal mucosa and its long-lasting consequences. No therapy is available yet. Patients, prescribers and authorities should be aware of this adverse event which incidence is high (2.6% of outward gastroenterological consultations) especially when multi-annual surveillance for several years are expected."

^this is the small intestine they are talking about, where lactobacillus are the main bacteria, this should be clean of any bacteria from the large intestine, problems here could also affectgastric motility or gastric emptying.

here's someones thought process similar to mine, but you might be looking at more indigenous strains then this.

https://www.gutcritters.com/lactobacillus-acidophilus-and-sibo/

"Raise gut pH by eradicating these bacteria, and I can guarantee you intestinal hell on earth."

again,

Isotretinoin is associated with dysbiosis, malabsorption (with visceral fat decrease) and signs of dysimmunity. Symptoms develop more than 20 years after the intake of the medication taken at usual range and duration.

at its most mild this could equal dry flaky sensitive skin, at its worse, metabolic syndrome, bone loss, neurodegeneration, reproductive difficulties.

could being the key word.

Also guess where else lactobacillus dominate? that could have implications from birth. this might be where you start looking at some of these strains.

On 7/21/2019 at 10:00 PM, TrueJustice said:

Depression and Accutane is very grey. Some still say many teenagers and young people are depressed already cause of their acne

There's evidence that depression actually precedes acne. This research paper discusses it in a section called "Lipid Peroxidation, Acne and Mental Health." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012032/

Pretty interesting.

Can I just say that I want to nominate this entire thread for being one of the craziest threads, not just on acne.org, but on the entire internet. Holy crap.

11 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

so they say something like SIBO is more likely whats coming up from the large intestine, not whats already there. From the small intestine on up lactobacillus should be the main bacteria. ive seen a few studies that lactobacillus are more resistant then bifido when it comes to antimicrobials. So if someone was able to knock this down, it could spell more trouble.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/aa42/f3e7260c399337f8e74faac8f8899ccce5ee.pdf

Severe Acne in Female Patients Treated with Isotretinoin is associated with Dysbiosis and its Consequences

^this study that ive posted a few times,

"Isotretinoin is associated with dysbiosis, malabsorption (with visceral fat decrease) and signs of dysimmunity. Symptoms develop more than 20 years after the intake of the medication taken at usual range and duration. A facilitating role of Propionibacterium acnes cannot be excluded. Isotretinoin is known to impair stem cells renewal and TLR2 expression in the mucosa of the small gut. These pharmacological effects, explaining the efficacy of the medication on acne (the metabolic syndrome of the pilosebaceous gland) may induce the progressive atrophy of the jejunal mucosaand its long-lasting consequences. No therapy is available yet. Patients, prescribers and authorities should be aware of this adverse event which incidence is high (2.6% of outward gastroenterological consultations) especially when multi-annual surveillance for several years are expected."

^this is the small intestine they are talking about, where lactobacillus are the main bacteria, this should be clean of any bacteria from the large intestine, problems here could also affectgastric motility or gastric emptying.

here's someones thought process similar to mine, but you might be looking at more indigenous strains then this.

https://www.gutcritters.com/lactobacillus-acidophilus-and-sibo/

"Raise gut pH by eradicating these bacteria, and I can guarantee you intestinal hell on earth."

again,

Isotretinoin is associated with dysbiosis, malabsorption (with visceral fat decrease) and signs of dysimmunity. Symptoms develop more than 20 years after the intake of the medication taken at usual range and duration.

at its most mild this could equal dry flaky sensitive skin, at its worse, metabolic syndrome, bone loss, neurodegeneration, reproductive difficulties.

could being the key word.

Also guess where else lactobacillus dominate? that could have implications from birth. this might be where you start looking at some of these strains.

Have been thinking about adding a broad spectrum probiotic one day a week to cover all bases.

14 hours ago, Calcified said:

Have been thinking about adding a broad spectrum probiotic one day a week to cover all bases.

Actually im thinking the opposite. im thinking of highly specific strains that are already commercialized, but where you find these might sound kind of funny, but after looking at some research, maybe not.

Measuring the Good Bacteria for Urogenital Health

However, urogenital health in adults can also be measured by looking for and measuring beneficial bacteria. We know that the presence of Lactobacillus in the vagina can be a good marker of vaginal health. It is less well known that determining the amount of lactobacillus in semen can be a marker of health in males.

In anarticle published in Sterility & Fertility,Lactobacilluswas one of the most predominant bacteria in the semen of people described as normal.Another articleshowed that the most abundant genera among all samples wereLactobacillus(19.9%),Pseudomonas(9.85%),Prevotella(8.51%) andGardnerella(4.21%). The proportion ofLactobacillusandGardnerellawas significantly higher in the normal samples, while that ofPrevotellawas significantly higher in the low-quality samples.

While medical students are trained to look for numerous characteristics in semen including sperm count, volume, appearance, odor/smell, viability/mobility, sperm morphology, pH, presence or absence of leukocytes, fructose and other biochemical parameters the presence and amount ofLactobacillusis not regularly tested. In fact, the presence of bacteria in semen is almost always considered a sign of infection. These new findings challenge our assumptions about what we should teach students to look for, and what is healthy.

9 hours ago, guitarman01 said:

Actually im thinking the opposite. im thinking of highly specific strains that are already commercialized, but where you find these might sound kind of funny, but after looking at some research, maybe not.

Measuring the Good Bacteria for Urogenital Health

However, urogenital health in adults can also be measured by looking for and measuring beneficial bacteria. We know that the presence of Lactobacillus in the vagina can be a good marker of vaginal health. It is less well known that determining the amount of lactobacillus in semen can be a marker of health in males.

In anarticle published in Sterility & Fertility,Lactobacilluswas one of the most predominant bacteria in the semen of people described as normal.Another articleshowed that the most abundant genera among all samples wereLactobacillus(19.9%),Pseudomonas(9.85%),Prevotella(8.51%) andGardnerella(4.21%). The proportion ofLactobacillusandGardnerellawas significantly higher in the normal samples, while that ofPrevotellawas significantly higher in the low-quality samples.

While medical students are trained to look for numerous characteristics in semen including sperm count, volume, appearance, odor/smell, viability/mobility, sperm morphology, pH, presence or absence of leukocytes, fructose and other biochemical parameters the presence and amount ofLactobacillusis not regularly tested. In fact, the presence of bacteria in semen is almost always considered a sign of infection. These new findings challenge our assumptions about what we should teach students to look for, and what is healthy.

Studies have shown increased fertility with 13cis in men.

Ra can increase the relative abundance of lactobacillus spp.

I do still take a lactobacillus only probiotic daily. But it's hard to determine if it's the correct strain. It does get a bit funny, heaps of multi strain lactobacillus are marketed to females and I am a man, so it's hard to determine what is suitable and what should be avoided.

It's a pity the study on female dysbiosis they didn't test Ra levels, that would be interesting.

When you work with a good kinesiologist, they can determine what is the best strain to take. I will go on one again soon once we clear the nasty stuff.

I said this a while back, they dont just put you on multi vitamin to fix things as there are things in that concoction that your body may not like, same thing applies withdifferent types of probiotics as far as I know. Theres probably a good chance your body will respond favourably to many different types, Im not an expert so dont know for sure, Ill leave that up to kinesiologist to figure out.....

Treating my adrenals, he didnt just say here take this B complex, my body specifically responded more to B12 and B6 over the others so thats what I took.

The point is, this is a targeted approach with supplements rather than chuck everything at it and see what works.

On 7/24/2019 at 1:27 AM, Giog said:

Can I just say that I want to nominate this entire thread for being one of the craziest threads, not just on acne.org, but on the entire internet. Holy crap.

What's the most crazy aspect of it though?

• That Accutane can cause such an endless nightmare for some people?

• Some of the crazy theories and treatments we concoct to escape this fate?

• That this has been going on for over 30 years and dermatologists still spout misinformation about the health risks associated with this drug?

• That some of the members who have posted here have committed suicide?

• That Accutane can make a teenager impotent but the FDA refuses to list this side effect?

• That some doctors and alternative health practitioners have bilked thousands of dollars from some of us without successfully treating our side-effects?

• That there has really been no progress in the 8-year lifespan of this long thread?

.

• .

3 hours ago, Dubya_B said:

What's the most crazy aspect of it though?

 

• That Accutane can cause such an endless nightmare for some people?

 

• Some of the crazy theories and treatments we concoct to escape this fate?

 

• That this has been going on for over 30 years and dermatologists still spout misinformation about the health risks associated with this drug?

 

• That some of the members who have posted here have committed suicide?

 

• That Accutane can make a teenager impotent but the FDA refuses to list this side effect?

 

• That some doctors and alternative health practitioners have bilked thousands of dollars from some of us without successfully treating our side-effects?

 

• That there has really been no progress in the 8-year lifespan of this long thread?

 

.

• .

Mainly the bolded, yes.

Giog can I ask, what are your symptoms?

What things have worked for you to improve them?

Keen to hear your thoughts if thats ok.

7 hours ago, Dubya_B said:

What's the most crazy aspect of it though?

 

• That Accutane can cause such an endless nightmare for some people?

 

• Some of the crazy theories and treatments we concoct to escape this fate?

 

• That this has been going on for over 30 years and dermatologists still spout misinformation about the health risks associated with this drug?

 

• That some of the members who have posted here have committed suicide?

 

• That Accutane can make a teenager impotent but the FDA refuses to list this side effect?

 

• That some doctors and alternative health practitioners have bilked thousands of dollars from some of us without successfully treating our side-effects?

 

• That there has really been no progress in the 8-year lifespan of this long thread?

 

.

• .

Why don't you just read the books from Grant Genereux ffs? It's not pseudo science and each logical connection is throughly backed up by studies.

His forums openly endorse criticism to further debate the theory.

Read a book and stop listening to the dumb thread

To quote Grant Genereux,

Poisoning for Profits

"This is my second eBook. Theres really two big points I was trying to develop and communicate with it. Firstly, so-called vitamin A is not a vitamin at all. Its supposed discovery was just badly botched science."

He better let the World Health Organization know they have it all wrong and to stop saving all these kids in third world countries that are on forced rice diets.

A few salient facts

• An estimated 250 million preschool children are vitamin A deficient and it is likely that in vitamin A deficient areas a substantial proportion of pregnant women is vitamin A deficient.
• An estimated 250 000 to 500 000 vitamin A-deficient children become blind every year, half of them dying within 12 months of losing their sight.