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Not to mention, Id only be interested in taking testosterone not just for sebum production but for energy, ceasing brain fog, losing depression and on & on & on......
I think some of us have tested and its on the low side but not enough to warrant being put on it, to my knowledge anyway!?
5 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Not to mention, Id only be interested in taking testosterone not just for sebum production but for energy, ceasing brain fog, losing depression and on & on & on......
I think some of us have tested and its on the low side but not enough to warrant being put on it, to my knowledge anyway!?
I find it interesting that my DHEA is so high and my estradiol is high for my age. I feel like not enough people with PAS have experimented with hormones. All over the PFS page, men have experimented, and there have been recoveries! I feel like everyone on this forum waits for the guy next to them to try something out. Well cover zero ground that way.
21 hours ago, MonsterDiesel said:Tests are in. Meant to post this sooner. I remember reading that a deficiency is quantified as 10 or 25% or normal but I cannot find more information about this. I also had my biotinidase activity tested (finally) and it was normal.Biotin
5/13/16
VITAMIN B7 0.17ng/mL 0.05 - 0.83 ng/mL 4/6/18
Vitamin B7 0.59ReferenceRange:0.05-0.83ng/mL
Enzyme Biotinidase Def, Serum
InterpretationUnaffected
Biotinidase Activity8.2NORMALReferenceRange:4.8-12.0nmol/min/mL
Okay so your just above mid range and normal but could that still be classified as low thanks for taking the time to get back to me.
i
12 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Not to mention, Id only be interested in taking testosterone not just for sebum production but for energy, ceasing brain fog, losing depression and on & on & on......
I think some of us have tested and its on the low side but not enough to warrant being put on it, to my knowledge anyway!?
If its below the average for your age , I think it can be warranted. Remember, the PBS qualifications for testosterone in Australia are archaic and extremely stringent. I think the normal range is 10-32, and you have to test at 6, twice in a row.
What if your levels are 8/9 or even 12? Assuming you are a relatively young man, or even middle aged, this is quite low compared to your peers. If you go by the book , its not warranted, however the book does not know your body. Perhaps before Accutane, your level was 20 or higher, and that was your set point for optimal health.
Thankfully, any GP can still prescribe hormones on a private script if they feel its warranted.
It gets tricky however if your numbers are mid range or slightly above, and you still have symptoms of low T (myself).
10 hours ago, mikez said:If its below the average for your age , I think it can be warranted. Remember, the PBS qualifications for testosterone in Australia are archaic and extremely stringent. I think the normal range is 10-32, and you have to test at 6, twice in a row.
What if your levels are 8/9 or even 12? Assuming you are a relatively young man, or even middle aged, this is quite low compared to your peers. If you go by the book , its not warranted, however the book does not know your body. Perhaps before Accutane, your level was 20 or higher, and that was your set point for optimal health.
Thankfully, any GP can still prescribe hormones on a private script if they feel its warranted.
It gets tricky however if your numbers are mid range or slightly above, and you still have symptoms of low T (myself).
All very good points to consider:
The other part of the equation with going on anything is, what are the side effects, how long should you be on it, what are the health implications in the long run etc etc
All the questions I wish I had in my power when I was 22 and got persuaded to go on Accutane.
Colinboko - I take your point about more of us going out on a limb and experimenting but Id caution anything we do moving forward - I mean would anyone on here by willing to jump on that abortion drug just because its topical for a day or two on the forums?? Thats crazy in my book.
If Accutane has taught us anything, its that all drugs come with side effects yeah.
20 hours ago, TrueJustice said:All very good points to consider:The other part of the equation with going on anything is, what are the side effects, how long should you be on it, what are the health implications in the long run etc etc
All the questions I wish I had in my power when I was 22 and got persuaded to go on Accutane.
Colinboko - I take your point about more of us going out on a limb and experimenting but Id caution anything we do moving forward - I mean would anyone on here by willing to jump on that abortion drug just because its topical for a day or two on the forums?? Thats crazy in my book.
If Accutane has taught us anything, its that all drugs come with side effects yeah.
In general, for me, hormones at moderate doses only used to top up levels, rarely have the side effects compared to drugs. That worst that's happened is that I lost the initial positive response of some . There have been several times where I've gone downhill from drugs and even supplements, something I've never experiences with hormones.
They still need to be carefully monitored of course and only used when plausible.
I agree, some notions thrown around, especially abortion drugs seem wild and dangerous.
Hi... I am sorry, I cant read everything in this interesting thread. But what is the most accepted theory? Is Accutane still in the body, somehow? Or did it just cause some unknown effects during the intake, which are more or less permanent?
It seems it is about the latter, though I could be wrong. And also, I think every part of the body affected follows its own logic.
After Accutane (I took it in 2013) I developed: dry eye and photophobia (the most life-altering effect), low back pain, sensible intestine (I am well if I eat more or less healthy). I found that I have osteoporosis, low vitamin D (I cant keep it normal unless I take 100.000 UI once in a while, not even in the summer exposing myself to the sun), low DHEA (out of normal range). Testosterone and some of its precursors are normal but more on the low side. My ejaculations have lost power (I mean, short distance of semen) even when I am very aroused and I control the arousing for a while, but I dont know if this is normal for my age (I am 38).
And I have much less sebum in the face and back. So, if I have a pustule, once in a while, it is much smaller and less bothersome than before. And acne lesions never complicate becoming bigger and deeper and long-lasting, as happened to me before Accutane.
I also have a strange zone on the side of my nose which is constantly peeling.
A concrete question: has somebody taken DHEA? Do you think it is okay to take it if it is low in the tests, even if I dont know how the drug could have affected my body? With what purpose? Well, just to try, because it is low, and a doctor suggested it.
On 6/5/2018 at 5:05 AM, TrueJustice said:The other part of the equation with going on anything is, what are the side effects, how long should you be on it, what are the health implications in the long run etc etc
I am on testosterone replacement therapy and can answer questions about it. It has saved me and is the only thing that has worked.
2 hours ago, Jason3 said:On 05/06/2018 at 7:05 PM, TrueJustice said:The other part of the equation with going on anything is, what are the side effects, how long should you be on it, what are the health implications in the long run etc etcI am on testosterone replacement therapy and can answer questions about it. It has saved me and is the only thing that has worked.
Great to hear that you™re on something that actually works!!
Please share some info - what you™re actually taking and how much?
How long have you been on it and how long do you plan to be on it?
How is it making you feel, what are the side effects if any?
What bloods did you have done and what did it show you and your GP to put you on testosterone?
Thank you 
10 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Great to hear that you™re on something that actually works!!Please share some info - what you™re actually taking and how much?
How long have you been on it and how long do you plan to be on it?
How is it making you feel, what are the side effects if any?
What bloods did you have done and what did it show you and your GP to put you on testosterone?
Thank you
At first I didn't associate my problems with Accutane. I ended up having my testosterone levels tested because of various problems: fatigue, ED, "brain fog", low libido - and at age 35, it was at the same level as an 80 year old man. Normally this is caused by thyroid problems, an injury to the brain or testicles or some type of illness. I had none of those. The only thing I ever took aside from things like antibiotics was Accutane.
I've been on TRT for 4 years. I have friends who have been on it for 30+ years. It is a lifetime treatment and commitment. By taking testosterone, your body will cease all natural production of its own and so you are committed. That is actually ok and it maybe sounds a lot worse than it is. If your body isn't working right and not making enough anyway then replacement is the only option. I feel great. I feel like I am in my early 20's again (I'm 40).
The boosters and supplements - do not waste any money on them, they simply don't work, ever. Testosterone is a fairly seriously controlled substance. Think about it: if something were capable of increasing testosterone then that something would likewise be regulated, not available for purchase from any store and gas station.
I do injections and also use a cream from a compounding pharmacy. See my post in the other thread for exactly what I'm taking and why. The cream is an essential part to raise your DHT in addition to testosterone levels. The sexual dysfunction of post-finasteride syndrome is treated most effectively with TRT and specifically T cream applied to your scrotum. I'm treated in a similar way because this is a similar problem and this is what works.
The hardest part is finding a competent doctor. In the US it is very difficult. Most doctors even if they allow it just give you a shot every 2 or 3 weeks and TRT is much more involved than that. We have to go to private cash pay clinics here to get effective treatment. In the UK I've heard it's worse. And again you have to go to a private clinic as the NHS is useless and can even make things worse just like our traditional healthcare system here in the US. For me it works out to an average of about $100-125/month for all of my medications.
My treatment is managed very well in part because I have really good doctors. The only side effect that I have is ironically, acne - on my upper back and shoulders. It's not uncommon and it's caused by increased DHT and sebum. My face is clear. The supposed side effects of heart attacks and prostate cancer are not true, and in fact my risks are actually lowered.
Blood tests:
Total + Free Testosterone
Studies show that problems start in men when levels drop below 400 ng/dL Total and/or 20 ng/dL Free
Sensitive Estradiol (LC/MS)
Must be this test. The standard Estradiol test does not report accurate results in men.
DHT
This is part of the area that Accutane seems to mess with and permanently "break".
CBC
Checks blood counts for problems.
CMP
Checks basic liver and kidney function.
PSA
Sometimes used for indication of prostate cancer.
LH and FSH
Used as part of determining cause for low testosterone.
DHEA-S
A precursor to your sex hormones. Helps with anxiety.
Personally I think this is just part of the total picture of your health. If your doctor and funds allow it, you should also check your thyroid (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3).
Hope that helps someone.
5 hours ago, Jason3 said:At first I didn't associate my problems with Accutane. I ended up having my testosterone levels tested because of various problems: fatigue, ED, "brain fog", low libido - and at age 35, it was at the same level as an 80 year old man. Normally this is caused by thyroid problems, an injury to the brain or testicles or some type of illness. I had none of those. The only thing I ever took aside from things like antibiotics was Accutane.I've been on TRT for 4 years. I have friends who have been on it for 30+ years. It is a lifetime treatment and commitment. By taking testosterone, your body will cease all natural production of its own and so you are committed. That is actually ok and it maybe sounds a lot worse than it is. If your body isn't working right and not making enough anyway then replacement is the only option. I feel great. I feel like I am in my early 20's again (I'm 40).
The boosters and supplements - do not waste any money on them, they simply don't work, ever. Testosterone is a fairly seriously controlled substance. Think about it: if something were capable of increasing testosterone then that something would likewise be regulated, not available for purchase from any store and gas station.
I do injections and also use a cream from a compounding pharmacy. See my post in the other thread for exactly what I'm taking and why. The cream is an essential part to raise your DHT in addition to testosterone levels. The sexual dysfunction of post-finasteride syndrome is treated most effectively with TRT and specifically T cream applied to your scrotum. I'm treated in a similar way because this is a similar problem and this is what works.
The hardest part is finding a competent doctor. In the US it is very difficult. Most doctors even if they allow it just give you a shot every 2 or 3 weeks and TRT is much more involved than that. We have to go to private cash pay clinics here to get effective treatment. In the UK I've heard it's worse. And again you have to go to a private clinic as the NHS is useless and can even make things worse just like our traditional healthcare system here in the US. For me it works out to an average of about $100-125/month for all of my medications.
My treatment is managed very well in part because I have really good doctors. The only side effect that I have is ironically, acne - on my upper back and shoulders. It's not uncommon and it's caused by increased DHT and sebum. My face is clear. The supposed side effects of heart attacks and prostate cancer are not true, and in fact my risks are actually lowered.
Blood tests:
Total + Free Testosterone
Studies show that problems start in men when levels drop below 400 ng/dL Total and/or 20 ng/dL FreeSensitive Estradiol (LC/MS)
Must be this test. The standard Estradiol test does not report accurate results in men.DHT
This is part of the area that Accutane seems to mess with and permanently "break".CBC
Checks blood counts for problems.CMP
Checks basic liver and kidney function.PSA
Sometimes used for indication of prostate cancer.LH and FSH
Used as part of determining cause for low testosterone.DHEA-S
A precursor to your sex hormones. Helps with anxiety.Personally I think this is just part of the total picture of your health. If your doctor and funds allow it, you should also check your thyroid (TSH, Free T3, Free T4, Reverse T3).
Hope that helps someone.
Thank you Jason3 for the detailed response.
I always like to contrast the various theories of what happened to us during or after tane so I have to ask, what are your thoughts about Vit A? Do you think we poisoned ourselves unknowingly by ingesting too much retinoic acid?
I should also ask how are your sebaceous glands these days? Is your sebum production improved after testosterone treatment and do you sweat normal again??
6 hours ago, marshl1 said:You should read it mate. Im making my way through it. It makes a whole lot of sense to me. People are talking about Accutane destroying vitamin A receptors so that we become Vitamin A deficient. I'm no authority on this but that makes to sense to me. The symptoms I have experienced since taking Accutane match hypervitaminosis A which would make sense since Accutane is retinoic acid.
My opinion is that this is quite obviously a poisoning not a deficiency. I've always felt poisoned, that is what makes most sense to me. I just never understood why I couldn't recover from this poisoning years after the event. The theory from the ebook explains this really well for me. The idea that you can't recover until you deplete the poison from your body and you can't deplete it if you are still consuming the toxin in the form of dietary vitamin A and retinol.
All this being said it is very difficult to implement a very low vitamin A diet in reality. Im trying my best with it.
The guy who wrote the ebook has been on a zero vitaminA diet for 3 years and experienced no ill effects. If the science was correct on Vitamin A he'd surely be dead
Im a bit confused- you are saying tane could have screwed our Vit A receptors and made us deficient, how does avoiding all Vit A then help us?
Im still just trying to work out what to do with Vit A - remembering guys, Doctors have put tane patients on Vit A when problems arise due to the theory of becoming deficient.
4 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Thank you Jason3 for the detailed response.I always like to contrast the various theories of what happened to us during or after tane so I have to ask, what are your thoughts about Vit A? Do you think we poisoned ourselves unknowingly by ingesting too much retinoic acid?
I should also ask how are your sebaceous glands these days? Is your sebum production improved after testosterone treatment and do you sweat normal again??
I have littledoubt that Accutane causes Vit A toxicity. I believe it does that by mimicking Vit A and what It does?
Its a little tricky though to pin things down because many symptoms of Hypervitaminosis A are so general that they can also apply to many other things. Hypervitaminosis clears up within a few weeks after stopping the vitamin/substance causing it and the really well known lasting damage from it is liver damage. That eventually also leads to kidney damage if you stay at toxic levels long enough. A CMP blood test would be wise to get while taking Accutane as well as now if you suspect damage.
I was on it for years and my liver looks very good based on blood tests. I do take NAC and other supplements just because they are good for me. NAC has an almost miraculous ability to detoxify your liver.
My glands and sweat are normal now. I have slightly oily skin. Once in a while I get a pimple on my face due to summer sweat/heat. The breakouts are only on my back and shoulders because of the hormone therapy. Its a small price to pay in my opinion because of how good I feel.
1 hour ago, Jason3 said:I have littledoubt that Accutane causes Vit A toxicity. I believe it does that by mimicking Vit A and what It does?
Its a little tricky though to pin things down because many symptoms of Hypervitaminosis A are so general that they can also apply to many other things. Hypervitaminosis clears up within a few weeks after stopping the vitamin/substance causing it and the really well known lasting damage from it is liver damage. That eventually also leads to kidney damage if you stay at toxic levels long enough. A CMP blood test would be wise to get while taking Accutane as well as now if you suspect damage.
I was on it for years and my liver looks very good based on blood tests. I do take NAC and other supplements just because they are good for me. NAC has an almost miraculous ability to detoxify your liver.
My glands and sweat are normal now. I have slightly oily skin. Once in a while I get a pimple on my face due to summer sweat/heat. The breakouts are only on my back and shoulders because of the hormone therapy. Its a small price to pay in my opinion because of how good I feel.
Thank you
I think its important that someone in your position recognises Vit A toxicity has indeed occurred but what I think Im hearing from you is that whilst that has happened the bigger breakthrough has come about through testosterone treatment more than trying to combat Vit A toxicity
The point being that many of us might try to avoid Vit A but this doesnt necessarily mean we will feel great just for doing this, we might have to address testosterone issues if were ever going to feel well again....that sounds like what Im hearing in all this?
7 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:Thank youI think its important that someone in your position recognises Vit A toxicity has indeed occurred but what I think Im hearing from you is that whilst that has happened the bigger breakthrough has come about through testosterone treatment more than trying to combat Vit A toxicity
The point being that many of us might try to avoid Vit A but this doesnt necessarily mean we will feel great just for doing this, we might have to address testosterone issues if were ever going to feel well again....that sounds like what Im hearing in all this?
I think that the picture is bigger than Vit A. It can certainly do damage, but it seems most of the direct effects are temporary. That said, the retinoids could be doing other as yet unknown damage as we simple see and think of it as Vitamin A.
As as far as testosterone, you have to get blood tests to determine that. I would not be surprised if Accutane does something to permanently disrupt our endocrine system. For the longest time my DHT was very low. In the teens. Testosterone is converted into DHT. DHT has effect over libido, deepening of the voice and hair growth. And I used to only have to shave once a week because my facial hair grew so slowly. Even with large doses of testosterone, my DHT rose only by a small amount. Almost as if there is an artificially low set point. It should have increases by much more. Something affected my bodys ability to create DHT. Only when I force it to go much higher do I feel well, I have more body hair, my libido is much higher, etc.
So from my point of view, Im certainly not discounting any type of toxicity (obviously this stuff is poison), but I feel it is more fruitful to work backward because neither we or the medical community understands how all of this works.
- I had sexual side effects, so lets look at sex hormones.
- Ok, those are really messed up, fix them. Are any of them really difficult to fix (DHT)?
- Now, why would they be low - what controls their creation and metabolization such as aromatization and 5-alpha reductase?
- Unknown number of steps in between.
- Toxicity
- Taking Accutane.
This is where it gets frustrating because unfortunately science and medicine have not fully deciphered how those unknown steps work yet. It could be anything: androgen receptors may be permanently damaged or lost, something could be inhibiting how well they work, or something could be causing the necessary enzymes to misform among other thing.
I am going to keep experimenting with my treatment protocol. I have something that works for me, but I want to collect more information to try to fill in these gaps of understanding.
8 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Im a bit confused- you are saying tane could have screwed our Vit A receptors and made us deficient, how does avoiding all Vit A then help us?Im still just trying to work out what to do with Vit A - remembering guys, Doctors have put tane patients on Vit A when problems arise due to the theory of becoming deficient.
No I'm saying I don't believe the theory of receptor damage and deficiency. It makes no sense to me. I think it's the opposite, a poisoning
48 minutes ago, marshl1 said:9 hours ago, TrueJustice said:Im a bit confused- you are saying tane could have screwed our Vit A receptors and made us deficient, how does avoiding all Vit A then help us?Im still just trying to work out what to do with Vit A - remembering guys, Doctors have put tane patients on Vit A when problems arise due to the theory of becoming deficient.
No I'm saying I don't believe the theory of receptor damage and deficiency. It makes no sense to me. I think it's the opposite, a poisoning
Im beginning to think there must be a difference between Retinoic Acid and Vit A:
Yes - taking Accutane equates to a toxic level of retinoic acid, absolutely agree on that.
However - Why do people do better when given Vit A during or straight after their Accutane course? that suggests to me Vit A works on the receptors or somehow brings back in to balance the natural A levels after the toxic levels of retinoic acid.
I dunno....maybe someone can shed light on the difference between retinoic acid and Vit A if there is any?
6 hours ago, Jason3 said:This is where it gets frustrating because unfortunately science and medicine have not fully deciphered how those unknown steps work yet. It could be anything: androgen receptors may be permanently damaged or lost, something could be inhibiting how well they work, or something could be causing the necessary enzymes to misform among other thing.I am going to keep experimenting with my treatment protocol. I have something that works for me, but I want to collect more information to try to fill in these gaps of understanding.
Can I ask what your testosterone levels were? It seems you were eligible for treatment , however many of us may not be. Thanks!
5 hours ago, mikez said:Can I ask what your testosterone levels were? It seems you were eligible for treatment , however many of us may not be. Thanks!
I was tested once by a family doctor and had s result of 224 ng/dL Total T, 7.6 ng/dL Free T and then referred to a urologist who tested a second time with a result of 153 ng/dL Total T, 6.1 ng/dL Free T. I was quite low.
The healthcare systems are increasingly only treating hormone deficiency for very low results and even then they generally do a terrible job treating while insurance carriers are refusing to cover medications. It doesnt help that LabCorp revised their normal range downward last summer which makes it even more difficult. You would have much better luck going to private care. Private doctors are more progressive and not bound by limitations of coverage and reimbursement from insurance because they dont accept insurance. They get paid by you going to them and you are only going to see them if they help with your problems. So it is in their best interest to actually help you feel well. They treat symptoms and not just numbers. You can find private doctors who will treat results of even 450-500 ng/dL if you are showing symptoms. There is a massive gap in being able to get treatment and have a good quality of life depending on which route you try to take. Search online and take the ADAM and IIEF5 questionnaires.
Private care scares people because it sounds like it is only for the wealthy. There are people who overcharge like anything else, but there are also good options and like I said above, I maybe pay an out of pocket average of $100-125 a month for medications and consultations. My blood tests are covered by my health insurance in full, but you can cash pay for blood tests at a discounted price if you need.
After suffering for 20 years, Ive decided that my well-being and my health are worth that price.
20 minutes ago, TrueJustice said:So just to be clear Jadon3
You had no hormone or testosterone issues prior to taking Accutane?
You can squarely lay the changes that occurred from taking the poison?
My hormone-related problems started in my early 20s not long after stopping Accutane. I took it from around age 17 and a half to around age 20.
I cant say for certain it was a Accutane any more than anyone else, but Ive had no other cause for the problems I have experienced. I took it 20 years ago and blood testing was even less common then, so I have no baseline to go off of, just what is wrong now.
i can say that my LH and FSH were normal before starting TRT, so my body was sending the correct signals to produce hormones like testosterone, but it seems those signals were being ignored (or blocked?).
For what its worth, look up Isotretinoin on Wikipedia - the sexual heading under Adverse Effects.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotretinoin
There are clinical citations stating that lowered hormone levels are a known effect of the drug. Thats what angered me for a long time. It has been known since the 70s, and still that family doctor just gave it to me for years. I was a kid and in the early days of the internet there was no way for my parents or I to ever discover these potential problems even if we had known better. I have nothing else to point the finger at than Accutane.
Im not angry anymore, and I think that while anger is definitely justified, it closes ones mind and gets in the way of resolution. It ended up being a net positive for me. I have fixed my problems, and I started posting here to give some hope to others that relief is a possibility. I just had to unknowingly take poison and suffer for 20 years to get to this point. My health has drastically improved in the end. Its not fair, but I guess Ill take it.
For me Testosterone has not correlated with symptoms of muscular weakness or paralysis.
Just had it tested a couple days ago. im 35 btw.
Testosterone, Serum 581 ng/dL 264 - 916
Has anyone looked into prostatitis or had symptoms that could relate?
Maybe inflammation that spreads like a cancer.
sinuses,lungs, gi tract,mouth, bladder, brain.
symptoms of Prostatitis (dont wish it on my worst enemy) Feeling the need to urinate constantly even though you dont have to, pain in the the testicles and the entire pelvic region, a burning fire/ pain in the anus, almost complete loss of libido and serious ED problems.