Thoughts on "adrenal fatigue" ...?

I feel like no one has explored this route enough...

Has anyone gone to a naturopath or whatever they're called? We need to stop digging into things that people can't afford right now and start with something more simplistic. I remember reading about a girl who had IBS from accutane that was cured by taking oral steroids for a certain amount of time. WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TRYING PREDNISONE, HYDROCORTISONE, etc.

if elohel says says he felt 100% better while on a 15 day taper, then who's to say a month of steroids couldn't rejuvenate our adrenal glands? Cmon guys. I appreciate all the research going on but sometimes the answer could very well be sitting right in front of our faces, yet we seem too afraid to accept that it could be this simple. For everyone who has had brain scans; not a single one has come back abnormal. I'm almost 80% positive our brain issues are clearly caused by something in our bodies that has stopped being produced. Our brain issues are a side effect of something else going on. Because if accutane destroyed my brain then how come I'm so determined to get better? I'm not determined or motivated about anything else in liferight now, but every day I have motivation to fix this mess. That doesn't sound like "brain damage" to me.

On 8 mai 2017 at 11:19 PM, tryingtohelp2014 said:

i believe this will be the future standard for all disease in a few years. computeralgos will solve basically everything.

No unfortunately algos can get some help that's all. As in mariovitali work, they need data to work on. And what if medical studies on which his system is based on missed something really important? Then all machine computing won't be of any help.

On 5/8/2017 at 4:47 AM, mariovitali said:

 

Hey Guys,

I hope you find this interesting, please share if you think it's worth doing so (includes hypotheses that may be relevant to Post-Accutane Syndrome) :

http://algogenomics.blogspot.com/2017/05/machine-learning-nlp-and-network.html

 

Thanks for taking the time and effort.
Looking at some of what this is showing, there could be some blood testing that might correlate with some of what appears to be in common.
Obviously the one you mentioned,

Bile acids fractionated and total (will look into getting this depending on outcome of other tests)
https://www.labcorp.com/test-menu/21086/bile-acids-fractionated-and-total-lc-ms-ms

Ammonia, looking at any possible disturbance in the Urea cycle, but any elevated ammonia could indicate multiple causes. This is probably rare but very easy, cheap blood test to take.
https://www.walkinlab.com/ammoniaplasmatest.html

Sulfation disorders would maybe show protein abnormalities in the blood. I just had a full amino acid blood test (insurance covered) still waiting on results.
http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Overview/9265

3) Vitamin K Metabolism, have been curious about this one as well

Regulation of cellular functions

Growth arrest-specific gene 6protein(Gas6) is a vitamin K-dependent protein that was identified in 1993. It has been found throughout the nervous system, as well in the heart, lungs, stomach, kidneys, andcartilage. Identified as a ligand of the TAM family of transmembrane tyrosine kinasereceptors, Gas6 appears to be a cellular growth regulation factor withcell-signalingactivities. Gas6 has been involved in diverse cellular functions, includingphagocytosis, cell adhesion, cellproliferation, and protection againstapoptosis(5). It may also play important roles in the developing and aging nervous system (reviewed in26). Further, Gas6 appears to regulateplateletsignaling and vascularhemostasis(27). Expressed in most tissues and involved in many cellular functions, Gas6 has also been linked to several pathological conditions, including clot formation (thrombogenesis),atherosclerosis, chronicinflammation, andcancergrowth(28-30).

So how do we look into testing for vitamin k function?

[Edited link out]
Monitoring vitamin K status can help reduce risk of osteoporotic bone fractures and cardiovascular disease. Ones vitamin K status can be measured directly by looking at blood levels of inactive (also known as undercarboxylated) osteocalcin. It is more difficult for a doctor to discern K status in the blood because the very little vitamin K one consumes is stored in the body. So, looking at levels of a K-dependent protein, such as osteocalcin, is more accurately reflective of ones K2 status the more inactive osteocalcin, the lower the range of K2; higher levels of active osteocalcin, K2 status is likely quite sufficient.

Obviously our blood clots normally when it comes to the most important function of vitamin k

Adrenal Insufficiency This has been thought about since day 1 so im sure alot of these tests have been covered. This is also a pseudo medical term? but just quickly looking at what looks like viable information.

this is a gene mutation induced by accutane,
2.01 glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase G6PD

Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase(G6PDorG6PDH)
is This enzyme participates in thepentose phosphate pathway(see image), ametabolic pathwaythat supplies reducing energy to cells (such aserythrocytes) by maintaining the level of theco-enzymenicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate(NADPH). The NADPH in turn maintains the level ofglutathionein these cells that helps protect the red blood cells againstoxidativedamage from compounds like hydrogen peroxide.^[1]Of greater quantitative importance is the production of NADPH for tissues actively engaged in biosynthesis of fatty acids and/or isoprenoids, such as the liver, mammary glands, adipose tissue, and theadrenal glands.G6PDreduces NADP⁺to NADPH while oxidizing glucose-6-phosphate.^[2]

Adrenal Insufficiency
Diagnosis

8 hours ago, Colinboko said:

Has anyone gone to a naturopath or whatever they're called?

This might cost some people more then seeing a regular doctor. alot of insurances dont cover naturopath. They will also probably try to sell alot of over priced supplements. What type of blood tests did you end up having done? did you request or did they look at b12, zinc, and copper? If so are you going to look into getting these numbers? how far out are you from taking accutane again? was it less then a year? I say this because maybe its the least removed we'd be more likely to find something

19 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

Adrenal Insufficiency This has been thought about since day 1 so im sure alot of these tests have been covered. This is also a pseudo medical term? but just quickly looking at what looks like viable information.

Adrenal Insufficiency
Diagnosis

Adrenal insufficiency can be difficult to diagnose. Your doctor will begin by asking about your medical history and about any obvious symptoms you are experiencing. Tests that measure the levels of cortisol and aldosterone are used to make a definite diagnosis and include the following:

ACTH Stimulation Test:This is the most specific test for diagnosing adrenal insufficiency. Blood cortisol levels are measured before and after a synthetic form of adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH), a hormone secreted from the anterior pituitary, is given by injection.

Insulin-Induced Hypoglycemia Test:The insulin-induced hypoglycemia test is used to determine how the hypothalamus, pituitary and adrenal glands respond to stress. During this test, blood is drawn to measure the blood glucose and cortisol levels, followed by an injection of fast-acting insulin. Blood glucose and cortisol levels are measured again 30, 45 and 90 minutes after the insulin injection. The normal response is for blood glucose levels to fall (this represents the stress) and cortisol levels to rise.

Other Tests

Once a diagnosis of adrenal insufficiency has been made, a computed tomography (CT) scan of the abdomen may be taken to see if the adrenal glands are diminished in size, reflecting destruction, or enlarged, reflecting infiltration by some independent disease process. The scan also may show signs of calcium deposits, which may indicate previous exposure to tuberculosis. A tuberculin skin test may be used to address the latter possibility.

A number of imaging tools may be used to examine the size and shape of the pituitary gland. The most common is the magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan, which produces a series of images that provide a cross-sectional picture of the pituitary and the area of the brain that surrounds it.

In addition, the function of the pituitary and its ability to produce other hormones are tested. Typically, measurements of ACTH the pituitary hormone most relevant for maintenance of normal adrenal function along with thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH) and prolactin are made under resting conditions and following provocative simulation, such as following the administration of corticotrophin releasing hormone (CRH), which leads to an increase in ACTH levels under normal conditions.

Reviewed by health care specialists at UCSF Medical Center.

 

 

I know it's pseudo medical but I just find it so interesting because doesn't the immune system become over active during like "stage 3" of adrenal burnout? Basically the same deal with CFS sufferers not catching sore throats or common colds. Steroids have really helped a lot of these sufferers and some even permanently. We really need more people trying and experimenting with them. Can't be afraid of side effects, after all we disregarded the effects of tane. So it's all or nothin' now.

14 minutes ago, Colinboko said:

I know it's pseudo medical but I just find it so interesting because doesn't the immune system become over active during like "stage 3" of adrenal burnout? Basically the same deal with CFS sufferers not catching sore throats or common colds. Steroids have really helped a lot of these sufferers and some even permanently. We really need more people trying and experimenting with them. Can't be afraid of side effects, after all we disregarded the effects of tane. So it's all or nothin' now.

Here is a medical example of a steroid dosage and treatment for something similar that maybe could be going on post tane. There are drug induced eosinophilic conditions i believe.

I would think a endoscopy would catch this though if it was going on in the stomach. not sure. Ive had two now. I have been diagnosed with eosinophilic esophagitis, but i do have allergies and i could have been born with this as well.

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/354147

Eosinophilic Gastroenteritis

Treatment is based on the severity of symptoms. Mild symptoms are managed with careful search of inciting food allergens, medication review and avoiding them if found. Most patients present with moderate to severe symptoms. Corticosteroids are the mainstay of therapy in these patients. The usual dose of prednisone is 20-40 mg daily for 2 weeks with tapering thereafter. A vast majority of patients improve with this therapy and do not require further treatment. However, relapse can occur and is treated with long-term, low-dose steroids (prednisone 5-10 mg daily). Among other medications, mast cell stabilizers, antihistamines and selective leukotriene receptor antagonist (montelukast) have shown positive results in some patients [3,12,16,17]. The presentation of our case demonstrates that although EGE is a rare disease, a high level of clinical suspicion, especially in patients with a history of allergy and peripheral eosinophilia, will aid in early diagnosis and prompt treatment. On the other hand, if left untreated or missed altogether, it may lead to further involvement of deep layers of the gastrointestinal system wall, causing further complications that may require invasive measures, thereby affecting quality of life.

8 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

This might cost some people more then seeing a regular doctor. alot of insurances dont cover naturopath. They will also probably try to sell alot of over priced supplements. What type of blood tests did you end up having done? did you request or did they look at b12, zinc, and copper? If so are you going to look into getting these numbers? how far out are you from taking accutane again? was it less then a year? I say this because maybe its the least removed we'd be more likely to find something

I'm about 8 months off. And it's weird because I've gotten progressively worse since getting off. Almost like something is just slowly giving out. I had some blood work done by my GP which i'm picking up test results tomorrow. She left a voice mail stating all thyroid levels and hormones looked fine, blah blah blah. But I'll let you guys be the judge of that when I post it on here. My hair falls out like no other and has gone from incredibly strong hair, to floppy and weak and falls out even when I put gel and hairspray in, and it also changed textures.... straight to curly/wispy. For some strange reason I can still masturbate and "finish" but my erections are definitely not FULL or strong and I lose them fairly quickly (I think this is a result of my crippling depression/anhedonia) and has nothing to do with my testosterone because like I said... I can still "finish". I have trouble waking up in the morning (never feel refreshed) and can sleep whenever and wherever. Hands are shaky and my eyes do some weird shit... My pupils have been a concern from the onset of my symptoms. (The adrenal fatigue iris check thing, I fail every time which is interesting). Minor sun sensitivity and don't really have floaters (only when I look up at the sky on a bright day, but I remember having that even before all of this. My anxiety just makes me think of it more often now.) I feel just super zombie-esque. Really depersonalized. Oh and ridiculously constipated..... coffee helps me shit but yeah... haven't caught a cold in forever and feel super inflamed. That's all I got for ya

8 hours ago, Colinboko said:

For everyone who has had brain scans; not a single one has come back abnormal.

Mine has. Ive posted on this multiple times recently. Not sure if its due to accutane though, still looking into this.

Ive talked about this multiple times. This is what might be affecting people at night every night and they might not be fully aware of it. A type of constant irritation going on that you feel the following day. Im not sure if this is your typical type of reflux though.

Could accutane caused my uncontrollable acid reflux ...

On 5/9/2017 at 2:31 PM, ACCUiTy_drANE said:

The recent New Jersey lawsuit found that Roche was withholding patient memos and internal studies that found Accutane erodes the intestinal tract.

So that begs the question: What else was concealed by Roche? Does anyone know of any litigation against Roche that mentioned clinical trials related to the psychiatric side effects?

Im not sure if this would just translate to gastritis confirmed by endoscopy?(unless the issue is beyond the stomach) My first one years ago showed no evidence of stomach inflammation. My second one recently showed mild gastritis, Probably from all the damn supplements. Wish i had my money back on all of them. I could have prob at least bought a Pos truck with all the money ive spent on supplements. If you include doctors visits and testing a really nice truck.

You got a senator's son who killed himself, a guy who shot and killed his dermatologist, and accutanes effect on the brain are still vague and full of unknowns. You would honestly think if Roche knew something really sinister about the drug they would have pulled it from the market by now. Kind of like a "oh shit" if the public finds out about this we are in big trouble. Or maybe its a "they will never be able to test this or prove it in court."
its all a big mind fuck.

INTRODUCTION Eosinophilic gastroenteritis (EG) is an uncommon disorder characterized by either local or diffuse eosinophilic infiltration of the gastrointestinal tract. The stomach and small bowel is most commonly involved, but EG can occur in the esophagus, colon, pancreas and gallbladder. Clinical presentation varies depending on the anatomical location and the layer of the gastrointestinal tract involved.1 Protein losing enteropathy is a manifestation of this disease secondary to damage of the gastrointestinal epithelium. Proteins such as albumin and most gamma globulins do not have rapid catabolic turnover rates and as such may be limited in their ability to respond to increased gastrointestinal losses.2 We report a case of a patient diagnosed with common variable immunodeficiency (CVID) not responding to therapy. Evaluation determined that his suspected refractory CVID was in fact a protein losing enteropathy due to eosinophilic gastroenteritis.

I wouldn't say that adrenal insufficiency is a pseudo term :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term ="adrenal+insufficiency"

Quote

Patients with critical illness or hepatic failure exhibit impaired cortisol responses to ACTH,

a phenomenon known as relative adrenal insufficiency. A putative mechanism is that elevated bile acids inhibit inactivation of cortisol in liver by 5a-reductases type 1 and type 2 and 5b-reductase, resulting in compensatory downregulation of the hypothalamicpituitary adrenal axis and adrenocortical atrophy

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4104038/

Regarding Bile Acids and ATRA :

Quote

Moreover, all-trans RA induced the gene expression levels of negative regulators of bile acid synthesis including hepatic Fgfr4, Fxr, and Shp (Nr0b2) as well as ileal Fgf15. All-trans RA also decreased the expression of Abcb11 and Slc51b, which have a role in bile acid transport. Consistently, all-trans RA reduced hepatic bile acid levels and the ratio of CA/CDCA, as demonstrated by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry. The data suggest that all-trans RA-induced SHP may contribute to the inhibition of CYP7A1 and CYP8B1, which in turn reduces bile acid synthesis and affects lipid absorption in the gastrointestinal tract.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25175738

16 minutes ago, mariovitali said:

I wouldn't say that adrenal insufficiency is a pseudo term :

Yea your right. I was thinking of adrenal fatigue.

43 minutes ago, mariovitali said:

The data suggest that all-trans RA-induced SHP may contribute to the inhibition of CYP7A1 and CYP8B1, which in turn reduces bile acid synthesis and affects lipid absorption in the gastrointestinal tract.

I wonder if this could effect digestive enzymes that could hamper overall digestion leading to multiple issues. Like reflux, constipation, bloating, brain fog.

@mariovitaliI see you mentioned/were taking choline. How would you compare this to phosphatidylcholine and tmg or betaine? Which do you feel is most beneficial? Alot of people have looked into or tried tudca, which I found myself to be harsh.

I think getting this bile test will hopefully take just a phone call for me, but the main treatment for an abnormal result seems to be something like tudca. I remember you saying tudca is no longer necessary, can you elaborate on this yet?

55 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

@mariovitaliI see you mentioned/were taking choline. How would you compare this to phosphatidylcholine and tmg or betaine? Which do you feel is most beneficial? Alot of people have looked into or tried tudca, which I found myself to be harsh.

I think getting this bile test will hopefully take just a phone call for me, but the main treatment for an abnormal result seems to be something like tudca. I remember you saying tudca is no longer necessary, can you elaborate on this yet?

Sure,

One of the first evident things is that fats are not being absorbed correctly. I believe this happens because of impaired enterohepatic circulation. I have seen numerous cases where TBAs (Total Bile Acids) have been found to be elevated among people with these Syndromes but of course this needs to be further evaluated using proper Research methods.

Regarding Choline / TUDCA / TMG

I have taken them all : I was symptom-free when taking Choline/TUDCA but then something happened that basically told me that i have to further look for the root of the problem. My appetite was diminishing month by month. At some point i was not able to eat even a small bite of food. This was a clear sign that the solution was elsewhere. Of course i have sent numerous emails to researchers asking for help. No luck, so i had to continue looking myself.

I am not sure how exactly Choline helps, if i recall well it helps in proper protein folding within the ER. Note also that one of the nodes in the Network Analysis chart is "Choline deficiency"

So i stopped everything and went back to the drawing board. It was then that i realized (through the tools used) that VKD Proteins may have other roles apart from coagulation. I strongly suggest to everyone to read the Book Vitamin K - ISBN9780123741134

Note also the reference i made regarding the role of Vitamin K on the Endoplasmic Reticulum redox homeostasis :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22496424

@sacha_n

Regarding your comment about algorithms : The cool thing about these methods is that they can extract previously unknown relationships between Medical Topics. However you do need an expert to evaluate these results and my post has exactly this goal : To have researchers look at these hypotheses. Also, it goes without saying that GIGO does hold (Garbage-in, Garbage-out)

7 hours ago, mariovitali said:

So i stopped everything and went back to the drawing board. It was then that i realized (through the tools used) that VKD Proteins may have other roles apart from coagulation. I strongly suggest to everyone to read the Book Vitamin K - ISBN9780123741134

So have you been able to find any testable markers or blood test that might indicate abnormal vitamin k function? For instance the osteocalcin blood test I mentioned, Or other testing that would respond to what I would assume is some kind of vitamin k1/k2 supplementation?

Hydrocortisone/ Pred is something you dont want to mess around with....it will shut down your natural production to an extent while youre on it. Only if you have real diagnosed low cortisol and have tried natural methods to increase it without success, should you try it imo.

1 hour ago, guitarman01 said:

So have you been able to find any testable markers or blood test that might indicate abnormal vitamin k function? For instance the osteocalcin blood test I mentioned, Or other testing that would respond to what I would assume is some kind of vitamin k1/k2 supplementation?

Good Question.

No i haven't (and probably it's too late now to do so) but there were some signs suggesting that something was wrong with coagulation and/or calcium absorption :

1)teeth demineralisation
2) the doctor who saw my jaw bone in a scan said that my jaw bone has bone loss of a person in his 70s.
3) My cuts would take considerably long time to heal. Not anymore

One other thing : I was talking with a PFS guy yesterday called moonman. He said to me that he takes 40000 IU of D3. This -in my opinion- is like shooting yourself in the foot. You have to make sure that calcium is being used correctly by your body (=through K2?) and not by increasing its absorption (=D3 Supplementation).

Coming back to your question about osteocalcin : Your question does make sense so perhaps it would be a good idea to check it, however i do not know whether things are so easy to differentiate using Osteocalcin only.

5 minutes ago, Mike San said:

Hydrocortisone/ Pred is something you dont want to mess around it....it will shut down your natural production to an extent while youre on it. Only if you have real diagnosed low cortisol and have tried natural methods to increase it without success, should you try it imo.

I've read several instances of people taking low doses for long periods of time and having all of their symptoms disappear....? sooooo? We sure as hell weren't too afraid to put accutane in our bodies. So if I find something that makes me feel better, I'm going to stick with it. That may be steroids, that may not.

1 hour ago, mariovitali said:

2) the doctor who saw my jaw bone in a scan said that my jaw bone has bone loss of a person in his 70s.

Was this a CT scan? This wouldn't be picked up by a regular dentist x ray right? You'd probably have to go to a oral surgeon or something.

1 hour ago, Colinboko said:

1 hour ago, Mike San said:

Hydrocortisone/ Pred is something you dont want to mess around it....it will shut down your natural production to an extent while youre on it. Only if you have real diagnosed low cortisol and have tried natural methods to increase it without success, should you try it imo.

I've read several instances of people taking low doses for long periods of time and having all of their symptoms disappear....? sooooo? We sure as hell weren't too afraid to put accutane in our bodies. So if I find something that makes me feel better, I'm going to stick with it. That may be steroids, that may not.

I agree, just be careful thats all. And if you ever want to go off, wean very slowly so your body can adjust. Im considering going on myself.

40 minutes ago, guitarman01 said:

1 hour ago, mariovitali said:

2) the doctor who saw my jaw bone in a scan said that my jaw bone has bone loss of a person in his 70s.

Was this a CT scan? This wouldn't be picked up by a regular dentist x ray right? You'd probably have to go to a oral surgeon or something.

Sorry it was an X-Ray, not a scan

@guitarman01@tanedout

OK now look at this girl that commented on the post about this Research. I have asked her whether she took anything prior getting CFS. She said no. Then she read the post and remembered that she had taken Accutane!

For some reason i am not able to upload the snapshot