Bryan, I haven't methodically tested it with sebutape, and it was more anecdotal and theoretical than anything. I'd like to in the future, but to be more accurate, I was referring to my skin looking less oily, which frankly is good enough for me. I had hydrated, less oily looking, and less irritated/broken out skin, probably due to the improved quality as Alternativsta mentioned. I'm trying to find the article right now that talked about the benefits of EPA and GLA on reducing AA, and it's improvement on the participants skin overall, though it was only 5 participants. Sorry for the misconception.
And no, I did not use GLA topically.
So what exactly did you use?
I've had success with GLA reducing the oilyness of my skin, and there are a handful of studies that support it's ability to inhibit 5-alpha reductase type 1.
How were you able to do that? Did you order GLA from a chemical company and then apply it topically to your skin, or did you apply some commercial acne product to your skin that contained the "free" form of GLA as an ingredient? Please give me all the details!
Why? So you can yell at him to do his homework, and that sebum production can't be controlled by topicals? And then tell him to look up a study that you're unwilling to link?
LOL!! No, so I can find out what he used to reduce his oiliness! Why in the world do YOU seem to have a stick up your ass?? I've quoted a great many studies over the years on various discussion forums, and I'm certainly not normally "unwilling" to link to them. Not by a long shot! I _am_ sometimes willing to yell at someone, if I think the person deserves it!
The guy has noticed reduced oiliness of his skin, is that so hard to comprehend? He says nothing about reduced sebum production. Many people have noticed that their skin becomes less shiny after using certain products (whether topical or internal), or after stopping them. You can call them fools for not understanding how sebum production works, but it is what it is, it says nothing about sebum production, only about the appearance of their skin.
He said in plain English that his skin was less oily after using GLA. I want to find out exactly what he used, how he used it, and where he got it. Is it okay with you for him to tell me that?
Cool down, sir. I've seen your posts over the years, your question was definitely not intended to find out what he used to reduce his oiliness. Don't play that game with me.
Bryan,
2-3 grams of epo daily for about three months which was about 900mg of gla. I've discontinued use and my skin still looks better than before, but I'm still taking things like fish oil with high amounts of EPA. I'll purchase some sebutape next time and get the average output of my skin, but I can't really isolate it as a factor. Perhaps it's improved sebum, I can't be quite sure.
Cool down, sir. I've seen your posts over the years, your question was definitely not intended to find out what he used to reduce his oiliness. Don't play that game with me.
It was EXACTLY to find out what he'd been using to reduce his oiliness!!! I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth about other things, either, like how I supposedly ever said that "sebum production can't be controlled by topicals", or how I'm supposedly unwilling to cite studies for people. I want you to tell the TRUTH, pal! If you can do that, you and I will get along just fine.
Bryan,
2-3 grams of epo daily for about three months which was about 900mg of gla. I've discontinued use and my skin still looks better than before, but I'm still taking things like fish oil with high amounts of EPA. I'll purchase some sebutape next time and get the average output of my skin, but I can't really isolate it as a factor. Perhaps it's improved sebum, I can't be quite sure.
Topical GLA as an ingredient in various natural oils (evening primrose, borage, black currant, etc.) doesn't work as a 5a-reductase inhibitor, and neither does GLA from any kind of natural oil taken orally. For GLA to work that way when applied topically, you have to use a pure, un-esterified, "free" form of GLA; the only relatively easy way to do that is to order it from a chemical company (the stuff is very expensive), or use a commercial product that has some of it (or certain other unsaturated fatty acids) as an un-esterified ingredient. Those aren't cheap, either.
It was EXACTLY to find out what he'd been using to reduce his oiliness!!! I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth about other things, either, like how I supposedly ever said that "sebum production can't be controlled by topicals", or how I'm supposedly unwilling to cite studies for people. I want you to tell the TRUTH, pal! If you can do that, you and I will get along just fine.
Ok then...
...That's just a silly myth that's been floating around this site for a long time. Putting oil on the surface of your skin has no effect on the amount of sebum your sebaceous glands produce. It doesn't "trick" the glands into making less sebum.
The most significant influence on the amount of sebum that your sebaceous glands produce (and release onto the surface of your skin) is androgenic stimulation. Various other hormones probably have some effect on it, too, and I suppose even diet may affect it to some extent. But BY FAR the main thing is androgens! That's why young, pre-pubertal children produce a tiny level of sebum that's barely even measurable, as do people with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). Estrogens have the opposite effect of androgens: they suppress the formation of sebum. But one thing which has no effect at all on how much sebum you produce is what I've been talking about for years on acne.org: how much you wash your skin! Your sebaceous glands don't know how much you do that, and (perhaps more importantly) they don't care how much you do it!
Five years ago I created a thread on the "Acne Research" forum which I titled "FINALLY: a more direct test of the 'feedback theory' ", in which I described in detail the experiment I did on myself to see whether or not severe washing had any effect at all on how much oil I secreted on my face. I did the test scientifically, using the same Sebutape Skin Indicators that I recommended to a previous poster in this thread. I spent a period of almost 10 days by not washing my face AT ALL, not even with water, and not touching it or wiping it in any way. I measured how much sebum it was producing after that period by using the Sebutape Skin Indicators.
Then I did the opposite of that: I washed the hell out of my forehead by scrubbing it with Ivory soap VIGOROUSLY 5-6 times a day, for more than a full week (about 7 1/2 days). All that washing during that period of time was making the skin on my forehead so sensitive and irritated, it was actually causing me a pretty fair amount of PAIN!!
But I stuck to it for the 7 1/2 days, and measured the sebum on my forehead again with the Sebutape Skin Indicators. Not surprising to me at all, there was no change at all in how much oil my forehead produced, between not washing it at all, and washing the HELL out of it!
Your face doesn't go "superoily" after washing, unless you just normally produce a lot of oil!
It's hard for me to believe, or even imagine, that you've seen a reduction in oil by putting oil on your skin!If you want to test that claim more scientifically and believably, I suggest using Sebutape Skin Indicators. Those will give you an accurate and scientific indication of sebum output, and won't be affected by certain measurement problems that could possibly confuse or confound this issue.
What makes you think re-hydrating your skin will reduce oil production?
You're trying to keep the oil down by smearing jojoba oil and shea butter on your skin?? I don't understand.
Want more? I'm not putting words in your mouth (unless you're now going to tell me that these aren't topicals). And I even agree with you. But you can't tell me you didn't know about GLA and its effect on sebum. No way you don't know about it. Maybe that's even a compliment, so my educated guess is that your question was only there to provoke tim12. And whether or not we get along fine: I'd like you to control your temper. Not everyone is as informed on this subject as you, we get many new members everyday who don't know you, and who are trying to find out what works and what not. They know just as much as you before starting to investigate this subject.
It was EXACTLY to find out what he'd been using to reduce his oiliness!!! I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth about other things, either, like how I supposedly ever said that "sebum production can't be controlled by topicals", or how I'm supposedly unwilling to cite studies for people. I want you to tell the TRUTH, pal! If you can do that, you and I will get along just fine.Ok then...
{snip various things I've said in the past that have nothing at all to do with what I said in the original quoted paragraph above}
Want more?
Do I want more WHAT?? What are you talking about? What do those other quoted things I said have to do with any of this??
I'm not putting words in your mouth (unless you're now going to tell me that these aren't topicals). And I even agree with you. But you can't tell me you didn't know about GLA and its effect on sebum. No way you don't know about it.
OF COURSE I knew about GLA and sebum! I've known about it for years, long before I ever even started posting here on acne.org! What the hell does THAT have to do with anything?? Are you drunk??
Maybe that's even a compliment, so my educated guess is that your question was only there to provoke Tim12. And whether or not we get along fine: I'd like you to control your temper.
I'll control my temper if you start listening to what I say, dude.
Could you explain why orally taken "natural" sources of GLA do not have the same effect? Honest question, honest curiosity, especially when it comes to things like sebum being more linoleic vs. oleic. I've also seen your posts on other forums, and was curious what you have come across with ALA supplementation & topical use? I've only read Dr.Perricone's theory on why topical ALA reduced pore size & the normalization of their sebaceous gland secretions.
"After 2 weeks of treatment, sebum DHT concentrations were significantly suppressed"
"Dose-dependent suppression of sebum DHT by a 5IR1 inhibitor suggests the potential utility of such compounds in the treatment of acne."
"The current results revealed a dose-dependent suppression of sebum DHT concentrations after 2 weeks of treatment with MK-386. Sebum DHT was reduced by 55% after 50 mg MK-386"
source: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/5/...l#xref-ref-30-1
& there has been plenty of research to suggest substantial sebum secretion is a key player in the cause of acne, if not just common sense.
It isn't sebum that's clogging your pores. It's dead skin cells.
sorry, thought i would ask, what is 'GLA'?
It's Gamma Linolenic Acid, a fatty acid (omega 6). You can check out the links in tim12's post for more info: http://www.acne.org/messageboard/index.php...t&p=3100044
whether a certain drug/methods affects sebum production, or the many myriad of scientific claims backing it up. it's difficult to just take one chunk of a result from a "small group" without control to make a theory out of it. hypothetical largely.
i am glad at least more traction has been gain to break old acne's misconceptions and more openness to many types of acne triggered by different causes. e.g the controversial acne-diet.
paleo-eating and post-accutane user here. paleo diet did much much more than what my 2xaccutane courses did to my skin. so much for following the doctors' advice..
in my personal opinion, you need to stop using products that damage your face.
i believe excess sebum secretion results from your body compensating for excessively dry and damaged skin.
i am acne free, and i use soap ONCE a week at most. my skin was REALLY oily, and as soon as i stopped using soap or acne products, it became noticably LESS oily the next day
paleo-eating and post-accutane user here. paleo diet did much much more than what my 2xaccutane courses did to my skin. so much for following the doctors' advice..
2 courses of accutane did nothing for me either. While switching my diet to avoid high GL meals, drinks, and snacks and processed foods in favor of real, nutrient dense foods cleared me in a little over a month.
Could you explain why orally taken "natural" sources of GLA do not have the same effect?
If you think it's possible to inhibit 5a-reductase and reduce levels of DHT in the body just by taking some plant oils, why do you suppose Merck and Glaxo spent BILLIONS of $$$ to produce drugs to do that (finasteride and dutasteride)?
By the way, there _was_ a study a few years ago that found that significant supplementary amounts of GLA taken orally had no effect on DHT in the blood.
Honest question, honest curiosity, especially when it comes to things like sebum being more linoleic vs. oleic. I've also seen your posts on other forums, and was curious what you have come across with ALA supplementation & topical use? I've only read Dr.Perricone's theory on why topical ALA reduced pore size & the normalization of their sebaceous gland secretions.
I don't have any comment on the use of those fatty acids just as nutritional supplements, or supplements for the skin besides their specific uses as 5a-reductase inhibitors. They may well be useful for those other things, but I have no specific comment on that at this time.
Could you explain why orally taken "natural" sources of GLA do not have the same effect?
If you think it's possible to inhibit 5a-reductase and reduce levels of DHT in the body just by taking some plant oils, why do you suppose Merck and Glaxo spent BILLIONS of $$$ to produce drugs to do that (finasteride and dutasteride)?
By the way, there _was_ a study a few years ago that found that significant supplementary amounts of GLA taken orally had no effect on DHT in the blood.
Is it possible for you to not answer people with rhetorical questions?
"After 2 weeks of treatment, sebum DHT concentrations were significantly suppressed""Dose-dependent suppression of sebum DHT by a 5±R1 inhibitor suggests the potential utility of such compounds in the treatment of acne."
"The current results revealed a dose-dependent suppression of sebum DHT concentrations after 2 weeks of treatment with MK-386. Sebum DHT was reduced by 55% after 50 mg MK-386"
source: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/5/...l#xref-ref-30-1
One really BIG extra benefit to that study would have been if they had taken the trouble to measure the effect of oral MK386 on sebum production levels, rather than just the effect of MK386 on levels of DHT in sebum. Considering the failure of MK386 to benefit acne in that more recent study that we've talked about so much recently, measuring its effect on sebum production would be the very logical next step to do!
One really BIG extra benefit to that study would have been if they had taken the trouble to measure the effect of oral MK386 on sebum production levels, rather than just the effect of MK386 on levels of DHT in sebum. Considering the failure of MK386 to benefit acne in that more recent study that we've talked about so much recently, measuring its effect on sebum production would be the very logical next step to do! shock.gif
Think really hard about what a lower level of the respective androgen in sebum would imply.
One really BIG extra benefit to that study would have been if they had taken the trouble to measure the effect of oral MK386 on sebum production levels, rather than just the effect of MK386 on levels of DHT in sebum. Considering the failure of MK386 to benefit acne in that more recent study that we've talked about so much recently, measuring its effect on sebum production would be the very logical next step to do! shock.gif
Think really hard about what a lower level of the respective androgen in sebum would imply.
I'm not sure what you mean when you ask what it would imply. Please tell me exactly what you think.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1637346
"
The relative inhibitory potencies of unsaturated fatty acids are, in decreasing order: gamma-linolenic acid greater than cis-4,7,10,13,16,19-docosahexaenoic acid = cis-6,9,12,15-octatetraenoic acid = arachidonic acid = alpha-linolenic acid greater than linoleic acid greater than palmitoleic acid greater than oleic acid greater than myristoleic acid."
also
"gamma-Linolenic acid, the most potent inhibitor tested, decreased the Vmax"
I personally have taken GLA successfully (with lecithin for absorption). It really helps my acne, but didn't completely clear me up. I believe that inhibiting 5-alpha-reductase may help acne alot.