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SteveLewis

A question for those avoiding dairy

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Well, since dairy is a big part of the calcium intake of most diets, how do you make up for that when not eating dairy. I would prefer natural foods that provide dairy as I'm not a fan of supplements personally. I feel that mother nature has given us food which has a perfect amount of nutrients, minerals and vitamins that work together and taking a supplement throws this combination out of whack. For example why take 400 IU of Vitamin E when most foods provide a much smaller amount. It just seems like it'll throw things out of balance. By Eating "fortified" foods isn't a good method as I don't drink any milk replacements and fortified foods aren't natural anyway.

I know that nuts and seeds are often seen as good replacement sources but they're very high in fat so they're to be eaten in smaller amounts. Also, a lot of them have calcium in the form of calcium oxalate which isn't useful to the body at all, and studies show that it even lowers the absorption of calcium from other sources. I also find that nuts cause acne for me so I stay clear of them. Green veggies are a good source too but I don't know if I'm getting enough, really. I eat a lot of brussel sprouts, romaine lettuce, fruits and such but I don't know if those provide enough.

I'm going to look for arugula next time I go to the store, since an 85g serving of that provides about 160mg of calcium which is probably the highest I've seen from a leafy green veggie.

Any other recommendations on foods that have a good amount of calcium in them?

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Yup, that's what I've read, learned in nutrition class, and was also told by a nutritionist, but you know what, almost every food has some form of a nutrient or enzyme inhibitor. They give us dairy as the BEST source because it's the easiest way to obtain the most calcium, yet rumor has it (haven't really tried looking this up much) that countries that consume dairy products, have the highest rates of osteoporisis??? From what I know, animal protien, due to it's uric acid content, and perhaps the processing of the dairy products, will leach calcium from the body. So if you are going to consume calcium-rich foods and animal protein, perhaps you might want to look into taking Boron as this is supposed to prevent this from occuring.

Furthermore, you are right about the nuts, but even spinach contain oaxaltes. Basically your best natural sources will have the most oxalates, BUT you can break these down so that you can release the calcium for your use. All you need to do is soak your vegetables in baking soda, vinegar, or I believe lemon juice (must double check) to deactivate these nutrient inhibitors.

When it comes to the nuts, legumes, and whole grains, you are also supposed to be RIPE through, soaking or or sprouting, as they contain phytates that will inhibit Minerals such as Zinc, Folic Acid, Magnesium, Iron, Calcium, & even Vitamin A metabolism. Just simply OVERconsuming fiber (more than 30g daily) will prevent you from using certain nutrients such as calcium, iron & zinc which is why if one is taking a fiber supplement and vitamin supplements they should not be taken together.

Fruits, Vegetables. & Legumes also have enzyme inhibitors and eating these foods unriped will introduce your body to these enzymes. These enzymes, like the phytates, are designed to be active when foods are unripe to protect that food. The theory is that they are not supposed to grow in an environment that normally wouldn't support them, hence soaking or sprouting in water, as this encourages them to finish growing, ripen, and UNLOCKS these bound nutrients and deactives the inhibitors. When it comes to fruits & vegetables you usually just need to eat them ripe or cooked (like tomotes) to get the nutrients, antioxidants, and to deactivate the inhibitors. When I say enzyme inhibitors I mean amylase (carbohydrates), protease, and actually specific amino acids can be inhibited from breaking down. I ran into a study a few days ago, that actually mentioned that carbohydrate-inhibiting legumes were contributors of diabetes.

Of course, this is pretty much one of the reasons why you see so much refined bread products. The concern was that by eating these grains sprouted, we would come in contact with harmful bacteria and well when you refine foods you tend to breakdown most of it's natural properties and nutrients & nutrient inhibitors are one of them, hence why they are also enriched. Yet it doesn't breakdown gluten or all lectin proteins and therefore if you are avoiding these, you must FULLY sprout your whole grains to eliminate these or just don't eat those grains that contain them.

So when you are living a "natural" lifestyle, you must take into account that in doing so you may find you must do certain extra things in order to properly, if not safely consume these foods. I actually can't tolerate all bean consumption and in fact we naturally don't digest beans our bacteria does, so it makes sense that there is a commercial product to aid us in consuming beans (& lactose) as this is somewhat a natural intolerance. Although I will say that I do not take the time to soak or sprout my beans & nuts (few hours - few days) like other members do on this board, and this is probably why I can't tolerate nuts as well. Anyway, there are lists somewhere showing which foods have high oxalates but you could do a search for that as well (I'll see what I can find later). Otherwise, this website is good at showing you how to obtain the nutrients that you want from foods, provided they aren't overcooked or unriped of course ;-)

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data...nk/wt_rank.html

As far as why phytates aren't mentioned as such a big threat, my only guess is that it's due to them also being able to enhance our immune system and reduce insulin resistance. Yet they will inhibit you of nutrients so this may explain why the average American isn't getting even RDA levels of those nutrients naturally, thus another reason for enriched foods...

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Adults don't need as much calcium as kids do. As long as you eat a sandwich with a slice of cheese every day or a few times per week, everything is fine.

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Thanks for that website.

I also found this one. It lists the % absorbed from a lot of calcium sources. As you can see, high oxalate foods like sesame seeds or nuts have low % absorption rates. Sesame Seeds for example have 381mg of calcium per cup serving. However, our body would absorb only 58mg. Nuts, seeds and beans have the lowest absorbtion rates ranging from 17-21% so nuts, seeds or beans are not good calcium sources.

http://home.bluegrass.net/~jclark/calcium_foods.htm

Milk, however, also has a low absorbtion rate with 31% while most leafy veggies like turnip greens or pak-choi have above 50% so they seem like the best choices for calcium whether you avoid dairy or not.

I've heard about sprouting seeds/nuts/beans jade but I'm not sure how it's done. Do you have any info on how to proceed and how to know when these seeds/nuts/beans are 'sprouted'?

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Milk, however, also has a low absorbtion rate with 31% while most leafy veggies like turnip greens or pak-choi have above 50% so they seem like the best choices for calcium whether you avoid dairy or not.

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It's not just about calcium when it comes to strong/healthy bones. isn't phosphorus important too? There are other minerals that play a role in bone/tooth strengh. simply taking in a lot of calium isn't neccessarily enough. It's also as much about what you don't consume as how much calcium you do. if you're guzzling a lot of soda that leeches out calcium.

Leafy greens seem to be the best way to go from what I've read. and probably reducing grains. For every extra grain serving you consume try substituing it with a bgeen veggie. steam broccoli and some green veggies that contain goitrogenic substances to deactivate these so your thyroid health isn't affected. And aim to eat balanced. Alternate your calcium sources and maintaining some variety in your diet seems a good rule of thumb.

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"I highly recommend milk. It's a terrific food for that purpose, designed by Nature to get calcium into you."

Hmm, I would say Nature designed cow's milk to go into cows.

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Yes, calcium is absorbed better when it's relatively balanced with phosphorous (not surprisingly, milk has both calcium and phosphorous). And there are other factors that affect it, too: the sugar lactose increases calcium absorption (not surprisingly, milk contains lactose). Certain fatty acids can either INCREASE or DECREASE calcium absorption. Highly unsaturated ones (like in many vegetable oils) decrease it, whereas butterfat (again, not surprisingly) seems to increase it. Milk as a general product of Nature seems designed to be an efficient way to get calcium into us! eusa_angel.gif

Bryan

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"I highly recommend milk.  It's a terrific food for that purpose, designed by Nature to get calcium into you."

Hmm, I would say Nature designed cow's milk to go into cows.

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ROTFLMAO!!

People just love to say that, but is there ANY food (besides mother's milk) that's "designed" to go into humans??  Is an apple picked from a tree "designed" to go into humans?  Is wheat growing in a field in Kansas designed to go into humans?  How about a tomato growing in the garden in my backyard?  How about a sardine swimming around in the icy waters of the Atlantic?  Can ANY food be said to be scientifically or even philosophically "designed" for humans??  I think not.  We eat all these "unnatural" foods not for philosophical or metaphysical reasons, but because they are DAMNED-WELL HIGHLY NUTRITIOUS AND EFFICIENT at getting the necessary nutrients into us that we need.  And that includes cow's milk.

Bryan

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When all the fresh water, clean air, and soil are gone from other countries us Canucks will be rich as theives because we have it all(We also have hormone free cows). biggrin.gif

Anyway, I don't really know if milk is bad or not but I don't believe it's unnatural as other than breast milk, we don't get any other food or drink source from ourselves(You nuts that drink pee don't count). Anyway, I also wouldn't trust anything PETA says or any scientist claim that is funded by PETA or any interest group(On both sides) and unfortunately, many of hte evidence in the milk sucks website is from scientists that were paid by interest groups, even though PETA doesn't say this(I was at a lecture by one such scientist a few yeras back).

Basically their argument doesn't hold weight against milk itself but against American milk producing practices with BGH and other crap in the process(Which just about every other country doesn't have).

PETA is also the ones that attack people that harm animals, and were the ones that told people to stop buying milk because it leeches calcium while telling everyone to drink beer instead(How ironic). They also urged the milk state to change their slogan to beer(I believe Wisconsin?).

Bottom line, you're not going to get the straight answers from the dairy producers and you're sure as shit not going to get it form PETA, vegan groups or anyone else with an agenda. It's amazing how tough it is nowadays to find a study that isn't backed by someones wallet and who has a bone to pick.

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Yes, calcium is absorbed better when it's relatively balanced with phosphorous (not surprisingly, milk has both calcium and phosphorous).  And there are other factors that affect it, too:  the sugar lactose increases calcium absorption (not surprisingly, milk contains lactose).  Certain fatty acids can either INCREASE or DECREASE calcium absorption.  Highly unsaturated ones (like in many vegetable oils) decrease it, whereas butterfat (again, not surprisingly) seems to increase it.  Milk as a general product of Nature seems designed to be an efficient way to get calcium into us! eusa_angel.gif

Bryan

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I know you're really not looking for "fortified" foods, but they making orange juice with calcium in it now and if you're drinking OJ anyway you might want to pick up the calcium version.

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broccoli is a better source of calcium than milk.

And di you guys know that some farms give hormones to cows? the hormones make the cows develop faster, and being able to give milk on such an early age. They don't say if the hormones are passed to the milk though.

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Correct.  Milk would be a good source of calcium for most any animal, I would imagine.

Better let the animal kingdom know that they are missing out on calcium by not suckling off of cows.

It's a matter of ACCESS, of course.  If the rest of the animal kinkdom had access to milk, they would definitely drink it.  Ever watch a kitty cat or dog lap-up a bowl of milk? They love the stuff!  eusa_dance.gif

Bryan

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Well, since most creatures (ie any creature not a cow) didn't evolve from creatures that suckled cows (not likely anyway), it's not a leap to guess that many animals lack the necessary enzymes to process (cow's) milk properly.

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"If the rest of the animal kinkdom had access to milk, they would definitely drink it. Ever watch a kitty cat or dog lap-up a bowl of milk? They love the stuff!"

What? So your logic is that it must be good for them if they lap it up? I've seen my dog eat cat shit! Granted, she is not the smartest dog, but my point is that just becasue they eat it doesn't mean they are trying to supply themselves with some nutrient they feel they are lacking.

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Well, since most creatures (ie any creature not a cow) didn't evolve from creatures that suckled cows (not likely anyway), it's not a leap to guess that many animals lack the necessary enzymes to process (cow's) milk properly.

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