Jump to content
Acne.org
Search In
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Recommended Posts

I note posts of copper toxicity/altered ceruloplasmin gained some traction a few years ago. 

Why was this dropped as a theory?

Seems even more possible with the whole anti A (zinc consumption) theory rolling around now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

You start looking for some of these connections, and...

Retinoic acid and the gut microbiota in Alzheimer's disease: fighting back-to-back?

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

There is growing evidence that the gut microbiota may play an important role in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease. However, how these commensals influence disease risk and progression still has to be deciphered.

OBJECTIVE:

The objective of this review was to summarize current knowledge on the interplay between gut microbiota and retinoic acid. The latter one represents one of the important micronutrients, which have been correlated to Alzheimer's disease and used in initial therapeutic intervention studies.

METHOD:

A selective overview of the literature is given with the focus on function of retinoic acid in the healthy and diseased brain, its metabolism in the gut, and the potential influence that the bioactive ligand may have on microbiota, gut physiology and Alzheimer's disease.

RESULTS:

Retinoic acid can influence neuronal functionality by means of plasticity but also by neurogenesis and modulating proteostasis. Impaired retinoid-signaling therefore might contribute to development of diseases in the brain. Despite its rather direct impact, retinoic acid also influences other organ systems such as gut by regulating the residing immune cells but also factors such as permeability or commensal microbiota. These in turn can also interfere with retinoid-metabolism and via the gut-brain-axis furthermore with Alzheimer's disease pathology within the brain.

CONCLUSION:

Potentially, it is yet too early to conclude from the few reports on changed microbiota in Alzheimer's disease to a dysfunctional role in retinoid-signaling. However, there are several routes how microbial commensals might affect and might be affected by vitamin A and its derivatives.

 

by L Abdelhamid - ‎2018 - ‎Cited by 2 - ‎Related articles
Retinoic acid (RA) is a multifunctional metabolite of vitamin A that has been known as ..... Gut microbiota and/or their products, on the other hand, influence the ...
 

Normalizing Microbiota-Induced Retinoic Acid Deficiency Stimulates Protective CD8(+) T Cell-Mediated Immunity in Colorectal Cancer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27590114

 

Commensal Bacteria Suppress Vitamin A Metabolism 

2018

http://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/1_Supplement/170.21

 

So is it the micronutrient regulating the bacteria or the bacteria regulating the micronutrient?

Edited by guitarman01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/12/2019 at 10:19 PM, Calcified said:

Ronnie99- accutane has in studies treated Cushing's disease while on treatment, afterwards I guess anything is possible.

Have you received any type of diagnosis or reasoning from doc's? 

 

Not really a diagnosis, as symptons could be a variety of things, the main point is I think if we somehow can fix or treat the glucocosteroid receptors and levels, then I beleive we have treat some of our symtpoms, and these steroids play a role in alot of bodily functions, testosterone, immune, skin, and the people hear mainly complain about these areas.

Does anyone know, is glucosteroids treatment possible, or any test that can reveal dysfunction or not within normal ranges ?

On 5/13/2019 at 7:29 AM, TrueJustice said:

Thanks for posting that report - very much appreciated 

Good to know my kinesiologist is on the right path in treating me, although I’m curious to get his thoughts on Mifepristone 

Is our approach of adjustments and taking herbs etc going to work when matched against such a strong drug as Mifepristone??!!

In a few weeks time, I’ll challenge him on that, see what he says!!

 

 

How is your kinesiologist treating you in regards to Glucocosteroids ? Is there a test to determine dysfunction or abnormal levels ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Treating Glucocosteroids specifically?....,he’s not ( not that I know of anyway )

I’ve emailed that report to him to look at, won’t see him again for a few weeks though.

I’ve been doing weekly treatments for last 9 months, adjustments, taking various herbs and supplements along the way:

P5P, B12, Zinc, Baical Skullcap, Sweet Wormwood, Rhodiola, Taurine, Vit D , NAC, Iron. Heaps of NAC actually- it’s the one that breaks everything down - all the biofilms etc

All taken with a targeted approach as my body needs them - rebuilding HPA Axis 

Be great to see some others working with a specialist too....

As I said though, I’m interested on his thoughts on Mifepristone in particular, I mean in this instance why did it take such a powerful drug to reset Axis as indicated in report???

Is that suggesting my approach with herbs and supplements is too soft, it’s going to do some good but not reset things?

These are the questions I’d like to know.

I’m grateful that my specialist identified HPA dysfunction as my problem without me prompting him - in that sense I’m trusting in the process and doing well thus far with rebuilding everything. Be good to avoid Mifepristone if I can!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TrueJustice said:

Treating Glucocosteroids specifically?....,he’s not ( not that I know of anyway )

I’ve emailed that report to him to look at, won’t see him again for a few weeks though.

I’ve been doing weekly treatments for last 9 months, adjustments, taking various herbs and supplements along the way:

P5P, B12, Zinc, Baical Skullcap, Sweet Wormwood, Rhodiola, Taurine, Vit D , NAC, Iron. Heaps of NAC actually- it’s the one that breaks everything down - all the biofilms etc

All taken with a targeted approach as my body needs them - rebuilding HPA Axis 

Be great to see some others working with a specialist too....

As I said though, I’m interested on his thoughts on Mifepristone in particular, I mean in this instance why did it take such a powerful drug to reset Axis as indicated in report???

Is that suggesting my approach with herbs and supplements is too soft, it’s going to do some good but not reset things?

These are the questions I’d like to know.

I’m grateful that my specialist identified HPA dysfunction as my problem without me prompting him - in that sense I’m trusting in the process and doing well thus far with rebuilding everything. Be good to avoid Mifepristone if I can!!

 

 

One theory I can think of, if Accutane being such a powerful drug to cause HPA dysfuntion, it would be fair to say that Mifepristone being a strong drug would also be needed to reset it back.

 

its great your specialist identified it being HPA dysfunction as from all the literature  I have read your definitely  on the right track as I believe  this is main culprit causing all our symptoms.

 

if I decided to try the Mifespristone route, thats only half way there, as the other half would be how would you be able to get it from a good source ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Essentially for a guy it reduces progesterone doesn’t it??

Surely it can’t be the only way using Mifepristone....

And if it is, yeah where the hell to get it from or who to prescribe it to us!!??

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TrueJustice said:

Essentially for a guy it reduces progesterone doesn’t it??

Surely it can’t be the only way using Mifepristone....

And if it is, yeah where the hell to get it from or who to prescribe it to us!!??

 

 

What are your main negative symptoms from using Accutane ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Fatigue, severe dryness, depression, muscle weakness, insomnia, light sensitivity,slow wound healing, eye floaters, thinning hair, premature greying, varicose veins, gerd......

excess sweating, with my sebaceous glands altered it just pours out of me

Edited by TrueJustice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 10:38 PM, Calcified said:

It's the micronutrient regulating the bacteria, we weren't treated with bacteria.

Im going to re quote what I just posted.

On 5/13/2019 at 8:10 PM, guitarman01 said:

there are several routes how microbial commensals might affect and might be affected by vitamin A and its derivatives.

 Everything a person ingests in their diet, vitamins from a to zinc, to drugs, can cause shifts and manipule the microbiome.

This obviously isnt specific to Retinoic Acid.

Looking at this from a troubleshooting perspective, no matter what a person does diet wise, drugs, vitamins,

If they were missing some key microbial commensals, a person would not generate something out of nothing, no matter how strict the diet.

The probiotic market is in its infancy atm. I believe strains need to be looked at on an individual basis. What might be a commensal for one person, could be a foreign invader for the next, that the body rejects. Almost similar to organ transplants.

Dupont is looking at some evidence right now that this could even be related to blood type.

Or its marketing, but it makes sense. They are finding some probiotic strains in certain individuals are colonizing and persisting many months after the last dosage. 

Recent examples: 2019 These are not commercially available strains atm.

Bifidobacterium with the role of 5-hydroxytryptophan synthesis regulation alleviates the symptom of depression and related microbiota dysbiosis

https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/catalog/6285754

“We think the results are novel and innovative and provide a scientific basis to assess the true impact of specific bacterial strains on the brain.”

https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2019/04/23/Probiotic-strain-makes-use-of-gut-brain-axis-to-aid-stress-management-study-finds

New Groundbreaking Research Confirms Brain Coping Centre Activation

https://www.alimentaryhealth.ie/news/2019/04/News

 

Edited by guitarman01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guitarman01 -

I get what your saying.

Seems fasting reduces bacteria. Zinc also reduces bacteria.  

But determining what's needed now is difficult. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Zinc and B12 also help with producing stomach acid - for me that’s a godsend with the awful reflux issues I’ve had.

Important though that reflex point above stomach near diaphragm is functioning correctly for the correct absorption to occur. He worked on this after I mentioned the slow wound healing I’ve had - Zinc related.

kinesiologist said about Mifepristone - sure it might work initially in improving HPA but it isn’t the way to go, he said it would do nothing for gut and liver and all the other things we’ve been working on which are vital in the rebuilding process.

Fact - I have gut issues that we are working on, Mifepristone will do nothing to help gut.

I’m on track, I’ve successfully broken down the last lot of biofilms - he now needs me to go on what he’s named Fental Powder - a precise combination of Iron/Vit C. Has to be perfect ratio though so that should be next week when the 2 products arrive at clinic and he’ll combine them correctly for me.

I believe this now has more to do with body producing antibodies- immune system related from what he said.

Edited by TrueJustice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a bunch of people pointing out inflammation being a problem. I just wanted to add my 2 bits in saying, that since cutting out dairy and vitamin A, my inflammation has significantly reduced. My stomach rarely hurts, and same goes for my head. 

 

In fact, when I accidentally had some dairy a few days ago, I was reminded of the amount of inflammation I was having on a regular basis only a few months ago.

Edited by cnb30

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i'm going to continue to share some possible correlations.

New study demonstrates that intestinal bacteria grow in pregnant women

Science Daily-Apr 18, 2019
They also recorded an increase in other bacteria, but Bifidobacterium was the only one bacteria that was identical to pregnancy in mice.

 the microbial composition of bacteria during pregnancy in a way that may help the baby develop.

Why Don't All Infants Have Bifidobacteria in Their Stool?

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2016.00834/full

What are the Consequences of Lacking Bifidobacteria in the Bowel?

The absence of bifidobacteria in the bowel may be detrimental for infant development.

 

Can Vitamin A Supplements Help Alleviate Autism Symptoms in Children?

https://www.medicalnewsbulletin.com/vitamin-supplements-autism-symptoms-children/

Short answer probably not. But what did it do?

"Bifidobacterium was significantly reduced after vitamin A supplementation"

its in the same phylum of P. Acnes, which was significantly reduced.

 

 
Edited by guitarman01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, cnb30 said:

I saw a bunch of people pointing out inflammation being a problem. I just wanted to add my 2 bits in saying, that since cutting out dairy and vitamin A, my inflammation has significantly reduced. My stomach rarely hurts, and same goes for my head. 

 

In fact, when I accidentally had some dairy a few days ago, I was reminded of the amount of inflammation I was having on a regular basis only a few months ago.

 

Inflammation is a problem, and being the HPA axis being dysregulated from accutance, specifically the glucocorticoids, one of there main jobs is to reduce inflammation, and from the study I posted earlier that could be the primary source of the inflammation.

On 5/16/2019 at 8:48 PM, TrueJustice said:

Zinc and B12 also help with producing stomach acid - for me that’s a godsend with the awful reflux issues I’ve had.

Important though that reflex point above stomach near diaphragm is functioning correctly for the correct absorption to occur. He worked on this after I mentioned the slow wound healing I’ve had - Zinc related.

kinesiologist said about Mifepristone - sure it might work initially in improving HPA but it isn’t the way to go, he said it would do nothing for gut and liver and all the other things we’ve been working on which are vital in the rebuilding process.

Fact - I have gut issues that we are working on, Mifepristone will do nothing to help gut.

I’m on track, I’ve successfully broken down the last lot of biofilms - he now needs me to go on what he’s named Fental Powder - a precise combination of Iron/Vit C. Has to be perfect ratio though so that should be next week when the 2 products arrive at clinic and he’ll combine them correctly for me.

I believe this now has more to do with body producing antibodies- immune system related from what he said.

With Mifepristone, in the study, once it was stopped the HPA axis continued to recover until it was in balance again. So possibly from the study it not just works initially but provides a reset in the short and long term.

 

Has anyone on this forum mentioned the BCO1 Vitamin A gene, couple studies I have read that if there is a mutation with this gene changed by Accutane can cause multiple issues from skin to testosterone, dryness etc because from the mutation the body cant process Vitamin A as it should anymore ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that gene known to be changed by Accutane specifically is it??

I wasn’t aware - if there are studies, pls post them. That sounds interesting 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ronnie99 said:

 

Inflammation is a problem, and being the HPA axis being dysregulated from accutance, specifically the glucocorticoids, one of there main jobs is to reduce inflammation, and from the study I posted earlier that could be the primary source of the inflammation.

With Mifepristone, in the study, once it was stopped the HPA axis continued to recover until it was in balance again. So possibly from the study it not just works initially but provides a reset in the short and long term.

 

Has anyone on this forum mentioned the BCO1 Vitamin A gene, couple studies I have read that if there is a mutation with this gene changed by Accutane can cause multiple issues from skin to testosterone, dryness etc because from the mutation the body cant process Vitamin A as it should anymore ?

I think bco1 is only associated with converting beta-carotene to the retins*, so this wouldn't affect retin* metabolism pathways.

" ...reading up on the negative feedback loop that should control the amount of beta carotene entering body. ISX is a transcription suppressor that is stimulated by retinoic acid and suppresses transcription of SCARB1 (main protein receptor allowing carotenoid absorption) & BCO1 (enzyme that cleaves carotenoids into retinal). Therefore if there is plenty of RA then absorption and conversion of carotenoids is suppressed. However, it seems to me anecdotally that this does not happen in some people with vitamin A toxicity & therefore I hypothesis that the toxicity can mess up this nice negative feedback loop & people become super absorbers & converters of beta carotene."

This would add more vitamin A that needs to be converted to retinoic acid to excrete from the body, and a lot of that is converted to 13-cis-retinoic(accutane), before urinating and passing in stool.

 

BCO1 | rs12934922 | MAF: 0.227 AA (I’m T/T)
The A (major) allele is associated with:
  • Normal levels of vitamin A in the body
BCO1 , PKD1L2 | rs6564851 | MAF: 0.476 GG (I’m G/T)
The G (major) allele is associated with:
  • Increased levels of vitamin A
BCO1 | rs6420424 | MAF: 0.435 AA (I’m A/G)
The A (major) allele is associated with:
  • Reduced conversion efficiency of beta-carotene to vitamin A
BCO1 | rs7501331 | MAF: 0.152 CC (I’m C/C)
The C (major) allele is associated with:
  • Normal levels of vitamin A in the body

 

Reduced conversion of beta-carotene to retinol Associated with Rs7501331 and reduced BCMO1, lower ability to convert beta-carotene to retinyl esters and higher serum beta-carotene levels. See also Rs7501331
rs12934922 (R267S) and rs7501331 (A379V) double mutant have a reduced catalytic activity of beta-carotene by 57%. Female volunteers carrying the T variant of rs7501331 (379V) had a 32% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene, and those carrying at least one T in both SNPs show a 69% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene into retinyl esters. rs7501331: the frequency of the wild-type C allele and variant T allele was 76 and 24%, respectively; 56% of the population was CC wild-type genotype, and 39% was heterozygote CT with the TT variant present in 5% of the population. rs12934922: the frequency of the wild-type A allele and variant T allele was 58 and 42%, respectively; 38% of the population was AA wild-type genotype, 40% was heterozygote AT, and 22% was TT homozygote 
 more info
normal
rs6564851(G) associated with higher beta-carotene (p = 1.6 x 10(-24)) and alpha-carotene (p = 0.0001) levels and lower lycopene (0.003), zeaxanthin (p = 1.3 x 10(-5)), and lutein (p = 7.3 x 10(-15)) levels, with effect sizes ranging from 0.10-0.28 SDs per allele. Note that low plasma levels of carotenoids and tocopherols are associated with increased risk of chronic disease and disability, yet dietary intake of these lipid-soluble antioxidant vitamins is only poorly correlated with plasma levels, leading to the hypothesis that it isn't what you eat, it's your SNPs that regulate your carotenoid levels. This is one of the SNPs reported by NutraHacker SNPs. 
 more info
 
This is one of the SNPs reported by NutraHacker SNPs. Common variation in the beta-carotene 15,15'-monooxygenase 1 gene affects circulating levels of carotenoids: a genome-wide association study.
Reduced conversion of beta-carotene to retinol Associated with Rs7501331 and reduced BCMO1, lower ability to convert beta-carotene to retinyl esters and higher serum beta-carotene levels. See also Rs7501331
rs12934922 (R267S) and rs7501331 (A379V) double mutant have a reduced catalytic activity of beta-carotene by 57%. Female volunteers carrying the T variant of rs7501331 (379V) had a 32% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene, and those carrying at least one T in both SNPs show a 69% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene into retinyl esters. rs7501331: the frequency of the wild-type C allele and variant T allele was 76 and 24%, respectively; 56% of the population was CC wild-type genotype, and 39% was heterozygote CT with the TT variant present in 5% of the population. rs12934922: the frequency of the wild-type A allele and variant T allele was 58 and 42%, respectively; 38% of the population was AA wild-type genotype, 40% was heterozygote AT, and 22% was TT homozygote
 
 
 
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So has anyone had a beta carotene blood test? to disprove bcm01 mutation theory, so high level of beta carotene equals retinol deficiency.

I've only had serum retinol done which went down taking palmitate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Calcified said:

So has anyone had a beta carotene blood test? to disprove bcm01 mutation theory, so high level of beta carotene equals retinol deficiency.

I've only had serum retinol done which went down taking palmitate.

The theory/hypothesis is overload with beta-carotene, and it cascades out of control, meaning increased retinol -> retinoic acid.  You end up in VA overload.

Few people on Grant's forum have DNA tested positive for this scenario using 23andMe.  This happens without accutane, and most likely what happened to all us pre-accutane.  We were all messed up before we took accutane, accutane just makes the VA overload worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Calcified said:

So what your thinking is accutane reduced bacteria on treatment and still to this day?

Caused a chronic dysbiosis state? Yes possibly. this might be the slow burn or endless progressive cycle.

Deletion of rdh7 resulted in reduced RA signaling in immune cells, lower levels of IL-22, and an enhanced resistance to colonization by pathogen that exploits IL-22 induced antimicrobials to thrive in the gut. Supplementing mice deleted for rdh7 with RA reversed the colonization resistance, revealing the significance of downregulation of rdh7 by commensal bacteria. 

"we are demonstrating for the first time that bacterial regulation of RA provides a crucial feedback loop to curb excessive IL-22 activity in the gut."

http://www.jimmunol.org/content/200/1_Supplement/170.21

Edited by guitarman01

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Ronnie99 said:

 

Inflammation is a problem, and being the HPA axis being dysregulated from accutance, specifically the glucocorticoids, one of there main jobs is to reduce inflammation, and from the study I posted earlier that could be the primary source of the inflammation.

With Mifepristone, in the study, once it was stopped the HPA axis continued to recover until it was in balance again. So possibly from the study it not just works initially but provides a reset in the short and long term.

 

Has anyone on this forum mentioned the BCO1 Vitamin A gene, couple studies I have read that if there is a mutation with this gene changed by Accutane can cause multiple issues from skin to testosterone, dryness etc because from the mutation the body cant process Vitamin A as it should anymore ?

 

It’s definitely interesting info to consider - no doubt about it. Mifepristone might be perfect for someone who doesn’t have all the gut damage etc that I need to address.

At this stage for me I’m just trusting that my kinesiologist knows what he’s doing - so far he’s not deterred by anything, seems to know where he wants to go with things. I mentioned glucocorticoid in particular when talking to him about Mifepristone....he knows all about it and it’s importance etc.

So yeah, love the info on genes and bacteria and how it effects this and that but until I have reason to go get all that stuff tested I’m just trusting in my specialist and what he’s telling me to take etc.

At the very least I’ll have my gut healed and the gut/brain relationship working better again, if beyond that I happen to have a gene mutation or something at least I can tackle it knowing I’ve repaired everything else that’s in my power.

One thing I know after years of issues - there’s no quick fix in all of this - for me it’s prob 12 to 18 months of rebuilding everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, under_tow said:

The theory/hypothesis is overload with beta-carotene, and it cascades out of control, meaning increased retinol -> retinoic acid.  You end up in VA overload.

Few people on Grant's forum have DNA tested positive for this scenario using 23andMe.  This happens without accutane, and most likely what happened to all us pre-accutane.  We were all messed up before we took accutane, accutane just makes the VA overload worse.

So you thinking the mutation makes you overloaded not deficient?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Calcified said:

So you thinking the mutation makes you overloaded not deficient?

Yep the hypothesis is you become a super-converter of beta carotene, when carotene cleaves you get two retinols.

Studies have shown that the liver can hold about 2 years worth of vitamin A, when zero VA is coming in.  I suspect anyone with acne has two years worth of retins stored in their liver, and all the dietary vitamin A coming in after storage is full, starts the cascade to auto-immunes, acne, etc...   Being a beta-carotene super converter would help this process along even quicker.   Then us folks with this situation, throw accutane jet fuel on the fire.

I am still seeing improvement at now over 6 months VA free.  I think it will probably take 2yrs for full remission, getting the VA out is a excruciating long process, especially after high dose retinoic acid.   Would be nice to have a simple VA chelator to test this quicker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, under_tow said:

Yep the hypothesis is you become a super-converter of beta carotene, when carotene cleaves you get two retinols.

Studies have shown that the liver can hold about 2 years worth of vitamin A, when zero VA is coming in.  I suspect anyone with acne has two years worth of retins stored in their liver, and all the dietary vitamin A coming in after storage is full, starts the cascade to auto-immunes, acne, etc...   Being a beta-carotene super converter would help this process along even quicker.   Then us folks with this situation, throw accutane jet fuel on the fire.

I am still seeing improvement at now over 6 months VA free.  I think it will probably take 2yrs for full remission, getting the VA out is a excruciating long process, especially after high dose retinoic acid.   Would be nice to have a simple VA chelator to test this quicker.

I have stopped the palmitate and am on the zinc but I'm getting some acne now which has surprised me, but I feel like my androgen levels have improved. My digestion still good after palmitate so it helped with that, no longer stomach pains after meals. My blood glucose also went down, so it must have improved my insulin sensitivity.

Also i recently got confirmation in writing, they say I have isotretinoin induced dish disease.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Personalized Advice Quiz - All of Acne.org in just a few minutes

×