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Hey lamarr,

thanks for you answer!! I have one more question maybe you can help me with...Well I decided to try and needle one of my scars to see how it reacts. I was getting eager waiting for my roller... I feel like I made my scar even worse!!! Is it normal to look bad for a certain time being while its healing? The scab is already off and its discolored, I cant tell if its deeper or if the color is just making it look worse. I did it about a week ago. Would it be ok to do a rolling session already?

I'm not sure if I really needeld the right way.. I used a BD Micro Fine 31G 8mm needle and went about 4 mm in depth when needling. I didnt hear a pop, and didnt tug or anything... I just kinda glided the needle in the scar as many times as possible covering the entire scar...

Also, is it ok to use the Acne.orf regimen while dermarolling and needling? How long after a dermarolling session can i start the regimen again? Im really scarred becasue i read that benzoyl paroxide can hinder the healing process, so now i feel like i needled my scar and made it worse by continuing the regimen too early or something!! Thanks!

Thanks!!

Eric

It is normal for the scar to look wider when remodelling, give things several months before judging the results!!things often look worse right after. Leave it 4 weeks between sessions.

Sounds like yeah did it the right way, the acne.org regieme can irritate some peoples skin and B.P. can delay wound healing in some people, so i would leave it aslong as you can before you restart (obviously you need to avoid breakouts though).

oh and one moe thing.. sorry... the led man said to use the yellow for 10 min and the red and infra red for 5... is this true? i thought it was the other way around...

and regarding the terproline. I ordered the terproline face cream by synchroline dermocosmetics. Is this the right one? Also, I'm worried about it breaking me me out, can it? Thanks!!

Eric

Use the leds for 5 mins per area (red and ifnra red) and 5 mins for the ENTIRE face for the yellows. Keep them in contact with the skin and for the yellow move it across your entire face for the 5 minutes. You may need to break your face into about 4-5 areas for the red/infra red.

Lamarr I am not sure if you have updated the process for this procedure. So I was hoping you can look at how I have set it up. My computer at the moment is incredibly slow and takes forever for a page to upload.

1)Apply EMLA to face for about an hour than remove it and clean face with alcohol.

2)Needle deeper/larger scars, then dermaroll the whole face.

3)Apply terproline. Can I take a shower first?

Is this ok? when would I use the LED lights?

Also is there anything else I can use to clean my face after using the EMLA? I fear the alcohol may be to harsh

3) i would leave it a few hours before you do anything after dermaroller. Let the punctures close over a little. Use the LEDs as soon as you like. Wash your face with a gentle soap or cleanser if you wish. Hibicleanse/hibiscrub would be ideal though.

Hey guys i've been reading up on dermarolling and i am liking what im hearing about it. Just a few quick questions.

1. What type of scarring does it work best on. I mostly have a bunch of shallows rolling scars all over my cheeks.

2. What is the downtime. How many days after the rolling does does your face return to an acceptable level to go back out in public?

3. Are all the other treatments really necessary? I really dont have the money right now to be buying LED lights. I was thinking of just buying a dermaroller and rolling every 6-8 weeks and taking vitamin C oral supplements.

Thanks guys, im really looking forward to getting this started. I'm really just worried about walking around with a beat-red face for a couple days

1. any type, it is easier to target ice picks and box car (with needling) though. Shallow rolling should be addressed well with dermaroller.

2. for me the down time is 5 days, but i used to have rosacea so i have a tendency to stay red longer than most.

3.Give it a try without the leds, when you can afford them give them a try. You will find you get results without the leds most likely. With them though results are nearly always much better than without.

Is there a good reason for my dermaroller coming with instructions to dispose of only after one use?

Well it would be the safest thing to do, but i think a better reason for them to say this is because they sell more units this way... And it obviously get's them out of a number of legal situations.

So long as you don't re use them to many times and you dissinfect them inbetween sessions they should last a good 3-4 treatments.

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hey lamarr sorry if this has already been asked i read most of the thread and didnt see it. i saw that the led man sells the hand held light with red, infared and yellow instead of buying all three would this be ok.. or is there a difference? also which ones would you recommend for overall nicer skin tone. the scars i have are minor and what really bothers me is just bad skin texture would these benifit me? thanks and congrats on your success.

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Lamarr, once again thanks for your replies! It's really cool of you to keep comin on this board and answering questions and helping us out! Most people who get rid of their scars just forget about this board...

WC4608: I bought the same one... Its the one with all 3 combined. As I recall Lamarr saying that it works, but some believe the seperate ones work better. I don't know, I thought I would just oder the all in one and see how it goes.. It's at least better than nothing.. But I dunno, I'm wondering now too if I should have gotten the seperate ones!!

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If you guys are going for the '3 in 1' unit, then all you need to do is increase the exposure times and remember all the skin under the unit probably won't be getting treated so you need to move it around.

If your going down this route, i would have the red and infra red switched on, use this for about 25 minutes over the entire face (constantly sweep over the face) with the unit touching the skin. Then do the yellow seperately for about 7-9 minutes with the same method.

The trouble with using that unit is the exposure time increases alot because you have less of each kind of led, which decreases the joules per cm2 in any given time, thus needing a longer exposure time.

With light therapy (be it LLLLT(low level laser therapy)) or LED therapy, it is all about the wavelength in NM and the dose (in joules per cm2) so you need to use the '3 in 1' unit as i described above. Nearly half an hour using that unit, but it isn't hard to do and you can do it while watching tv or something....

Those three wavelengths are probably the best for skin conditions, the infra red specifics are still under debate (some say 830nm is better, some 850nm and others 880nm). The yellow isn't under debate and some people say 630nm is better than 660nm (and vice versa) for the red wavelength.

From personal experience on the red i would say 660nm is better than 630nm as i have tried both and found the 660nm to be better.

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Lamarr, ok, cool thanks.. I will do it this way... You use the LED therapy everyday right? Or just for a certain amount of time after the rolling? Also, regarding the terproline, I have the face cream. Will this do, or do you need the clinical strength one thats persribed? thx!

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That terproline should definently help things, i can't say if it is just as effective as the professional but it does work.

I use light therapy about 2-3 times per week now, used to every day.... but not any longer!!

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Lamarr

so are you using its best to get something like say baby qasar for acne scarring (and that will cut down on the amount oftime needed to treat)

or better to get what the led man sells

Best,

M

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Lamarr

Correction!

Lamarr

so are you saying its best to get something like say baby qasar for acne scarring (and that will cut down on the amount oftime needed to treat)

or better to get what the led man sells

Best,

M

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From prior posts, it seems like a red 630nm or 660nm light is best for acne scarring. Does anyone have an idea if 650nm will work? I found one at a good price and was thinking about buying it - but I am not sure if this small difference in 'nm' makes a difference.

Thanks for your help!

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Lamarr, is there a reason you dont use the light therapy everyday anymore? Or just becasue you dont need it that much in your case anymore? thx

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Lamarr, is there a reason you dont use the light therapy everyday anymore? Or just becasue you dont need it that much in your case anymore? thx

If I remember correctly, he mentioned in his earlier posts that he would stop dermarolling soon and that he would reduce the number of light treatments for maintenance purposes.

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oh ok, thanks..

also, do you guys roll your entire face or just the scarred areas? I only really have scars on my left side cheek and under my jaw on the right side. I was thinking of only rolling those areas.

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Mark,

Do you know how to calculate the power per cm in units of mW/cm^2?

Do I need to know this to compute 4J/cm2?

My current light therapy device is 24 watts total.

Can I just put (s=1j/24w x 4)? Light therapy would then be under 1 second for 4 Joules so that's not right. Do you know? Thanks!

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Mark,

Do you know how to calculate the power per cm in units of mW/cm^2?

Do I need to know this to compute 4J/cm2?

My current light therapy device is 24 watts total.

Can I just put (s=1j/24w x 4)? Light therapy would then be under 1 second for 4 Joules so that's not right. Do you know? Thanks!

Where did you get 24 watts from? which unit are you using? Calculating joules per cm2 is pretty difficult, it depends on the light source the angle of projection varies from light source to light source (E.g. LED's project light at anything from 10degree up to 150degrees) this then also determines how many joules or millijoules reach the surface.

With the led mans devices i work on each of the red and infra red leds being 6.4 mw and 4 fitting into one cm2. This only gives you the light output with the unit touching the skin. So for e.g. 6.4mw per led times 4 (4 leds per cm2) gives you 0.0256 joules per second (at the light source(so point blank)). Then you divide 4 (the joules you want per cm2) by 0.0256 which gives you 156.25 seconds which is 2.6 minutes to deliver 4 houles per cm2. 6 joules is 234.375 seconds or 3.9 minutes.

Now i used to recommend holding the unit a cm or two off of the surface of the skin which results in quite alot of drop off, but you get light loss even at point blank with leds. Plus the range you want is between 4-6 joules per cm2 so i recommend 5 minutes per area with the LED mans units.

Most researchers suggest that LED's require a higher dose than lasers to reach theraputic levels. With lasers 4-6 joules is normally recommended, but with leds it isn't thought that you can 'overdose', in the same way you can with leds.

If you are using for instance flourescent lights, the calculations are very hard to calculate, but you can't 'overdose' so you don't need to worry like you do with lasers. For those of you who want an explination of this i can give you one but it is to much for this thread.

I have done alot of research on light therapy. I use red lasers, a whole range of leds for numerous purposes etc etc.

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Up to about 5 days of redness is normal post rolling/needling. Some people are fine within 2 days or so, but generally a small amount of redness willl last till about 5 days post rolling/needling.

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Does anyone know where I can purchase some decent, relatively inexpensive vitamin C serum from? (Apologies if any has already been recommended earlier on in the thread. I've read the whole thing through, but it's been a while) I would prefer to purchase from somewhere in the UK, but provided shipping isn't too expensive I could also order from overseas if need be.

I've just ordered some LED lights which hopefully will arrive in time for my second scheduled dermarolling appointment (in early Jan) with Dr. Chu at Hammersmith. I'm already taking high doses of vitamin C and drinking plenty of water... just want to try and get any other bits together that might help in time for the next session. I'm going to try and improve my diet also, as being a uni student it's not the greatest at the moment!

It's hard for me to gauge the improvement I've seen so far, and nothing major has changed after just the one roll (as I had anticipated... though it certainly hasn't made things any worse - which is the main thing!), but I'm excited to finally be doing something to try and improve my skin after so many years of feeling hopeless about it. Hopefully I'll start seeing more pleasing results, the more sessions I undertake, but I'm still sticking to being realistic and not expecting miracles.

Good luck to all of you who are also dermarolling, or to those thinking about trying it!

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WC: I dont think it should damage any skin that isnt scarred, since there is no real risk of increased scarring like with C02 or Dermabrasion.

Lamarr: what is your take on moisturizing? Is it important to have a good moisturizer during the healing process? I dont think I will be able to use vasoline or anything (it will def make me break out). Is it ok to leave moisturzing out and just use the terproline and LEDs? Thx!

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ok, so I just did my first rolling session. It actually didn't hurt as much as I thought it would with the 2mm roller. Some areas where a bit sore when pressing down hard like on my jaw line by my neck.. I think it went pretty well. I will let you guys know how my skin looks in the coming weeks.

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Mark,

Do you know how to calculate the power per cm in units of mW/cm^2?

Do I need to know this to compute 4J/cm2?

My current light therapy device is 24 watts total.

Can I just put (s=1j/24w x 4)? Light therapy would then be under 1 second for 4 Joules so that's not right. Do you know? Thanks!

Where did you get 24 watts from? which unit are you using? Calculating joules per cm2 is pretty difficult, it depends on the light source the angle of projection varies from light source to light source (E.g. LED's project light at anything from 10degree up to 150degrees) this then also determines how many joules or millijoules reach the surface.

With the led mans devices i work on each of the red and infra red leds being 6.4 mw and 4 fitting into one cm2. This only gives you the light output with the unit touching the skin. So for e.g. 6.4mw per led times 4 (4 leds per cm2) gives you 0.0256 joules per second (at the light source(so point blank)). Then you divide 4 (the joules you want per cm2) by 0.0256 which gives you 156.25 seconds which is 2.6 minutes to deliver 4 houles per cm2. 6 joules is 234.375 seconds or 3.9 minutes.

Now i used to recommend holding the unit a cm or two off of the surface of the skin which results in quite alot of drop off, but you get light loss even at point blank with leds. Plus the range you want is between 4-6 joules per cm2 so i recommend 5 minutes per area with the LED mans units.

Most researchers suggest that LED's require a higher dose than lasers to reach theraputic levels. With lasers 4-6 joules is normally recommended, but with leds it isn't thought that you can 'overdose', in the same way you can with leds.

If you are using for instance flourescent lights, the calculations are very hard to calculate, but you can't 'overdose' so you don't need to worry like you do with lasers. For those of you who want an explination of this i can give you one but it is to much for this thread.

I have done alot of research on light therapy. I use red lasers, a whole range of leds for numerous purposes etc etc.

I'm using bright therapy LEDs. Type: Bright Therapy 412 LEDs to see the website

They are super super bright, if it wasn't for goggles I'd be blind with my eyes closed. It is 24 Watts from what I hear is pretty high. It's not hot at all until like 5 minutes on the face you can feel some warm, however, this could be because I lay it on my face lol.

So unless the company gives me the mW for the LEDs I'm going to have to guess? I appreciate all the info you did give me. I'm still getting the Infrared, Red and Yellow from the LEDman.

One note is that since I've been using this bright LED rig the two weeks I had a bunch of little red dots, so minute in size. No white heads or anything. Tiny dots. I'm wondering if the photon therapy is pulling the p. acne out of my skin. I've had accutane with similar results. It pulled everything out. Though, like most people, Accutane just made me scar and came back the following year.

Thanks for your time.

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Hey Lamarr, is it possible to over roll? Is it possible to roll too aggressively or go over the area too many times? My skin looks really uneven and I'm worried I over did it..?

Also, I don't seem to have any little red dots, the areas I rolled are just pretty red. I'm sure I went deep enough, it seemed like I was pushing down hard enough, and there was plenty of blood... thx!

Edited by EricB
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