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Apple Cider Vinegar is not as effective as Glycolic or Lactic Acid

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Guest nec77

i know but it would be nice to see a before and an after pic. i dont know wtf to do because everyone says things work.

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Where is your research on Malic Aciud you cannot calim ACV does not work with out mentioning what is int it.. So tell me what is so bad about Malic Acud, Vitamins, Minerals and Antioxidants. Well this is news to me I guess they are all bad for your face, that is what Tap is syaing by not answering my questions.

Actually, as I stated before I'm proving that glycolic acid and lactic acid is backed up by scientific research. Malic acid is not. Feel free to post evidence that malic acid does cure hyperpigmentation if you want to make your case. Unfortunately, it does not exist because malic acid is not used for hyperpigmentation.

The inhibitory effect of glycolic acid and lactic acid on melanin synthesis in melanoma cells.Usuki A, Ohashi A, Sato H, Ochiai Y, Ichihashi M, Funasaka Y.

Division of Dermatology, Department of Clinical and Molecular Medicine, Kobe University Graduate School of Medicine, Kobe, Japan.

Alpha-hydroxy acids (AHAs) such as glycolic acid (GA) and lactic acid (LA) have been reported to be effective in treating pigmentary lesions such as melasma, solar lentigines, and postinflammatory hyperpigmentation. The mechanism of this effect might be due to epidermal remodeling and accelerated desquamation, which would result in quick pigment dispersion. However, the direct effect of AHAs on melanin synthesis has not yet been well studied. To elucidate such a direct effect of AHAs on melanogenesis, we performed melanin assays, growth curve determinations, Northern and Western blotting for melanogenic proteins [tyrosinase, tyrosinase related protein (TRP)-1 and TRP-2], and tyrosinase and, 4-dihydroxyphenylalaninechrome tautomerase enzyme activity assays using mouse B16 and human melanoma cells. GA or LA (at doses of 300 or 500 microg/ml) inhibited melanin formation in similar dose-dependent manner, without affecting cell growth. Although the mRNA and protein expression or molecular size of tyrosinase, TRP-1 and TRP-2 were not affected, tyrosinase activity was inhibited. To see whether GA and/or LA directly inhibit tyrosinase catalytic function, the effect of GA and LA on human tyrosinase purified from the melanosome-rich large granule fraction of human melanoma cells was performed. GA or LA were shown to inhibit tyrosinase enzyme activity directly, but this effect was not due to the acidity of GA or LA, because adjusting the pH to 5.6 (the pH of GA and LA at concentrations of 2500 microg/ml), did not affect tyrosinase activity. Taken together, these results show that GA and LA suppress melanin formation by directly inhibiting tyrosinase activity, an effect independent of their acidic nature. GA and LA might work on pigmentary lesions not only by accelerating the turnover of the epidermis but also by directly inhibiting melanin formation in melanocytes.

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Malic Acid is a natural humectant, which draws water out of the dermis and into the epidermis. This helps keep the skin hydrated throughout the day. Malic Acid is also a known antioxidant. In addition to its exfoliating and moisturizing properties, malic acid can help protect the skin against free radical damage due to sun and pollution exposure.

Malic acid a alpha hydroxy acid has unique properties - properties that are ideal for treating acne-prone skin and acne scarring, making it more effective than glycolic acid formulations.

Malic acid is an alpha-hydroxy organic acid that is sometimes referred to as a fruit acid. It is referred to as a fruit acid because malic acid is commonly found in apples as well a variety of other fruits. However, it is also found in plants and animals and human beings. Malic acid is a key intermediate in the major biochemical energy-producing cycle in cells known as the citric acid or Krebs cycle located that takes place in the cells' mitochondria in most living organisms.

Benefits of Malic Acid

  • Natural humectant, which draws water out of the dermis and into the epidermis. This helps keep the skin hydrated, without contributing to oiliness
  • Natural antioxidant properties help fight free radicals in the skin - which can contribute to skin damage.
  • Gentle nature makes it suitable for use on sensitive skin, even in high concentrations

Now what do you have to say about that. Hmm no evidence it works. YEA BULLSH*T so you sign off because I proved you wrong ..wow well atleast i know there is evidence.. I guess you just didn't want me to find it. Just because something isn't popular does not mena it does not work.

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Now what do you have to say about that. Hmm no evidence it works. YEA BULLSH*T so you sign off because I proved you wrong ..wow well atleast i know there is evidence.. I guess you just didn't want me to find it. Just because something isn't popular does not mena it does not work.

Sources? You probably got those off websites right? My sources are from peer reviewed journals from pubmed. Pubmed is the ultimate source of categorized scientific research articles of anything medical or health related. Anything that has any credence is in there. Websites are not counted in this. You see anyone who knows a little html can write whatever they want on the internet just to make people believe and to sell their own products.

Science is the only thing we have to separate what's has been proven to work from the quack stuff. To be fair I looked up malic acid in pubmed referring to hyperpigmentation or even acne and nothing was found. NOTHING.

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Can i just say something:

WHO CARES ABOUT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE!!!!????????? :shrug:

If it works for someone, then I will try it! I don't care what the science is behind it!

Why are some people on here intent on shooting down somebodys theories!? What does it achieve apart from giving us one less option to try for our acne? Its not as if we have a lot of options anyway!

Its like some people are determined to prove we, as acne sufferers, are beyond help.

WELL WE'RE NOT!

Stop fighting, let people make their own choices, and stop trying to get one over on each other!

:wall:

Rant over, I feel better now! :D

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Apparently a moderator said I had to make a new thread and cannot give my own opinion in the ACV thread. So...

Why glycolic or lactic acid is better than ACV:

1. There has been no research done on apple cider vinegar and how good it is to cure red marks.

2. There has been plenty showing how AHAs particularly glycolic or lactic acid fades marks

3. Acetic acid in ACV is not an AHA

4. Malic Acid in ACV is a weak AHA and not very effective. If it was, it would be in creams, lotions, or peels used to fade red marks. It is not.

5. ACV can break you out by clogging your pores. Glycolic and lactic acid exfoliates and unclogs pores.

Of course there are several other reasons, which will probably be stated in this thread later on.

MaMa Lotion:

http://skincarerx.com/review_box.html?pid=498

Celazome Gly-Clear Cleanser:

http://www.dermatologistrx.com/cart/Search...?Criteria=17316

B-Lite Blemish Products:

http://www.avreskincare.com/skin/blite/infobl.html

GlyMed Skin Care Products:

http://www.homepeels.com/Merchant2/merchan...ategory_Code=GM

Tap and SmashingPumpkins, you are both correct. There are products that contain Malic Acid because it is beneficial (as SP maintains), but those products also contain other acids such as Glycolic and Lactic Acids et. al (as Tap maintains) because they are beneficial also. It doesn't seem that all this arguing is going to do anyone any good. Aren't we all on the same side here? The anti-acne side? It looks like both kinds of acids work and people just need to try them and see which works best for their particular skin. All this bickering is not helping any of us find our personal cure. Everyone is entitled to have their own personal favorite products. Let's bring this back to a mature discussion. Thank you. :angel:

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all ill say its Lactic Acid is what is present in my moisturiser as its proven to increase the rate in which your skin rejouvinates itself naturally.

it does this because its a very mild exfolator that is present from fruit extracts (originally)

ive had great success with Lactic ACid products.

i cant however comment on the Apple stuff because ive never used. However Tap is allowed his own opinion as that is the whole point of a message board.

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Apparently a moderator said I had to make a new thread and cannot give my own opinion in the ACV thread. So...

Why glycolic or lactic acid is better than ACV:

1. There has been no research done on apple cider vinegar and how good it is to cure red marks.

2. There has been plenty showing how AHAs particularly glycolic or lactic acid fades marks

3. Acetic acid in ACV is not an AHA

4. Malic Acid in ACV is a weak AHA and not very effective. If it was, it would be in creams, lotions, or peels used to fade red marks. It is not.

5. ACV can break you out by clogging your pores. Glycolic and lactic acid exfoliates and unclogs pores.

Of course there are several other reasons, which will probably be stated in this thread later on.

MaMa Lotion:

http://skincarerx.com/review_box.html?pid=498

Celazome Gly-Clear Cleanser:

http://www.dermatologistrx.com/cart/Search...?Criteria=17316

B-Lite Blemish Products:

http://www.avreskincare.com/skin/blite/infobl.html

GlyMed Skin Care Products:

http://www.homepeels.com/Merchant2/merchan...ategory_Code=GM

Tap and SmashingPumpkins, you are both correct. There are products that contain Malic Acid because it is beneficial (as SP maintains), but those products also contain other acids such as Glycolic and Lactic Acids et. al (as Tap maintains) because they are beneficial also. It doesn't seem that all this arguing is going to do anyone any good. Aren't we all on the same side here? The anti-acne side? It looks like both kinds of acids work and people just need to try them and see which works best for their particular skin. All this bickering is not helping any of us find our personal cure. Everyone is entitled to have their own personal favorite products. Let's bring this back to a mature discussion. Thank you. :angel:

Thank You for the websites :) I know glycolic acid can be effective but because Malic Acid isn't un Pubmed Tap refuses to believe it is an AHA and works. Now just because something isn't scientifically proven does not mena it doesn't work. Benzoyl peroxide was not scientifically proven for a long time but it had to start from somewhere. And, so does Malic Acid. Just because somehtign is not popularized by the media does not mena it is ineffective. This is not rocket science my pictures prove it is working and all the comments from other people. Not to mention is must have been scientifically etested because you cannot put a priduct on the market that hasn't atleast been FDA approved like the wesbites Daughter of Eve mentioned, if Malic Acid is no good why are their products with that in it syaing it helps acne prone skin?

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Please, for the harmony of the forums, stop with this back and forth arguing. Both your chosen treatments have merits and I doubt either of you are going to change your minds, so just agree to disagree and move on please.

Thanks so much!

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Go to en.wikipedia.org and search "alpha hydroxy acid." Glycolic acid, Lactic acid, and Malic acid are all listed.

It's also fair to say that the concentration of malic acid in ACV is probably very low, so claiming the main benefit of ACV is in its "AHA-like properties" is somewhat flawed.\

However, I think that both SP and Tap are correct, to certain degrees... of course glycolic acid will fade red marks but there is some compelling evidence that ACV might work too, if not as quickly or dramatically.

Edit: This is a reply to an inquiry I received about this argument via a PM.

Well I honestly haven't come across much reputable stuff regarding acetic acid itself as a topical skin treatment, and there's not much out there on ACV as a topical either. Glycolic acid is a pretty tried-and-true method of reducing red marks, but as you said, it's expensive. The results with that treatment are pretty consistent and dramatic, so it's fair to say that glycolic acid and salicylic acid are two of only a few proven effective treatments for red marks, as far as clinical studies go.

As far as malic acid's AHA status... it is an AHA and it will (theoretically... it hasn't been proven to my knowledge) act similarly to glycolic acid in terms of its effect on the skin. However, it's not nearly as strong as glycolic acid, and the actual concentration in ACV is very low, especially when compared to the proportion of acetic acid in ACV... it's not enough to really mimic the effects of an AHA chemical peel to a significant degree. I'm fairly convinced that ACV (especially when diluted to a tolerable strength) doesn't act like an AHA or a BHA and probably isn't very effective at chemically stimulating skin cell turnover to increase, which is how glycolic and salicylic acid reduce red marks--essentially making the fading process that would happen naturally over a period of time speed up.

The acid mantle argument is pretty bogus too... I mean, it's very true that using acidic products on your face is much better than using alkaline ones... But it is incorrect to say that bacteria thrive in alkaline environments and can't exist in acidic environments... for pretty much every environment you can generate there is a bacterium that will enjoy living and thriving in it, they're marvellously capable organisms. As far as P. acnes goes, it's very likely that they will do just fine in both acidic and alkaline environments... Maybe if I explain how (alkaline) soaps work you can understand a little better. Ever used a really cheap soap and your hands felt slippery afterward? Well, that's not soap residue (usually) but it's actually the soap stripping a layer of skin off of your body... essentially dissolving that outer layer, which is typically rough and grooved (like your fingerprints). When it dissolves that layer, it takes bacteria that were living on that layer with it... so that's why washing your hands gets rid of germs... doesn't kill the bacteria so much as sweep them away. Antibacterial soaps are a little different... they usually have alcohol (or some other ingredient) in them which will kill bacteria. Anyway, alkaline products aren't particularly good for your skin and should be avoided, but that doesn't necessarily mean that an acidic product is always a good idea. Better than alkaline, true, but not necessarily that much better than water or a pH balanced soap-free cleanser. The acid mantle is important but if you think about how little time you spend washing your face compared to the rest of your day it's difficult to do too much damage with a product that happens to have a pH slightly above your skin's pH.

As for the other nutrients in ACV, those things really aren't all that great as topicals... it's good that it has them, of course... anything's better than nothing, but you have to keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of what's in ACV is acetic acid. So that's where the focus should be if you want to prove it's good for skin. Plus all that stuff is really much better for you when it's taken internally, not topically.

I have been using it kind of on and off... mostly off right now as I have some pretty nasty scabs and the stuff stings and they're having enough trouble healing as it is I don't need another product that slows healing time... I mean, it's cheap, but it's kind of unpleasant to use and it really dries out my skin a whole bunch (so much so that I got some flaky patches that I scratched and then they scabbed over for no apparent reason).

The thing is, in science the burden of proof is always, always, always on the person presenting the theory... this is Tap's excuse for attacking your treatment... there really is no proof that it works, as far as clinical studies go. It's not enough to say "You haven't proved that it doesn't work so it's possible that it could" because that's a negative argument... it doesn't remove the burden from you to prove it, it just means that the possibility that the theory is correct exists, which isn't very convincing to most people... At this point all you have is some theory and some anecdotes... not very impressive, even if you are right.

Anyway, that's all my thoughts on it off the top of my noggin.

Second reply:

Yeah, well there certainly isn't anything in it that could potentially damage or harm skin... whether it's actually chemically affecting the structure of the skin to the end of accomplishing positive results in a majority of a population that uses it is another question.

As I see it, the main benefits of ACV are its astringent properties... it'll dry out the skin (though of course less than with a chemical peel... it's comparable to alcohol-based astringents) and (probably... this is me speculating) clear out pores (mostly by dissolving or removing some loose dead skin cells on the surface and tightening the pores). Other than that, there's no real clear reason to suspect a pharmacological implication as far as skin structure goes. You would *probably* see similar results with similar astringents, but ACV is much cheaper ounce for ounce (and a tad bit stronger, at least for my skin), so that's the main benefit.

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I also must had that just because something has not been truely scientifically tested does not mean it does not work. Has science tested people using toothpaste on the face to see if it helps acne (which for some ppl it does dry up their acne overnite), aspirin, egg, yogurt, fruit, oatmeal etc. ACV is in that same category, a home made remedy, which many many people use homemade products rather then commercialzed products. Just because it is unconventional does not dismiss it or make it invalid. I hope alot of you are thinkign about trying other unconventional uses because IMO I have used countless commercialzed products expensive and fairly inexpensive, and nothing has worked quite like this. Even the products that are for acne red marks, have not worked. This isn't rocket science, just because it is unconventional does not make it worthless. there is nothing wrong with being frugal, soemtimes it is better then buy something that promises you no acne/no red marks and it costs 50 -100 dollars for a stupid 1oz vile and they say no you will see results in 2 -3 months yea that vile will last you what a week? And it probobly won't work anyways. I use to believe everything I saw or read because I thought it was made into a product, it must work. But that is not being a safe or smart shopper.

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Guest nec77

ugh so much stuff to read.... dont feel like it.

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Well the ACV is working for me *knocks on wood* and I thank SmashingPumpkins for posting it. :clap:

Thank You Mimi

Another reason why Taps ideas about ACV are flawed is because he has no references backing them up, he is just pulling things off the top of his head. So what if what I have posted come from websites, i have alost posted forums where people talk about nothing but ACV and what it has doen for them. So you mean to tell me that not only myself but the hundreds of other people who use this method are lieing. Obviously if ACV has it's own forum It obviously works and my pix prove that also. Here is jsut one of the forums I have found http://kuali.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16 There are many others shall I list them all so you cna go on them Tap and call everyone liars and that there own method of ridding age spots and red marks is a joke.

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well acv is definitely evening out my skin tone, this is like week two.

huge improvement. better than any product I've ever tried.

*shrug*

Thanks Smashing Pumpkins.

GREAT BAND BY THE WAY! MAYONAISE IS MY FAVORITE SONG

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Thank You Mimi

Another reason why Taps ideas about ACV are flawed is because he has no references backing them up, he is just pulling things off the top of his head. So what if what I have posted come from websites, i have alost posted forums where people talk about nothing but ACV and what it has doen for them.

There is nothing in pubmed on ACV or malic acid regarding hyperpigmentation. This is the third time I've said it. The reason is because no research has been done on it. This is because no scientist thinks it is worthy enough to study.

I already posted many references backing up glycolic and lactic acid. You cannot win this argument because all you have is your personal experience and some websites which are selling their own ACV products to try and say ACV is as good as the other AHAs. Sadly, that does not cut it.

The point of this thread is for people who are not knowledgeable about red marks and acne and who need advice on what products to use to help them fade. Science and research has supported benzoyl peroxide for acne, and AHAs such as lactic and glycolic acid for hyperpigmentation. Malic acid is not included in any of these studies.

It is obvious that if people want a cure they should try either a peel, lotion, or moisturizer with LA or GA.

It's like when you have an unknown disease. Do you go to an MD who knows conventional medicine or do you go to a naturopathic doctor who will change your diet? The answer is clear.

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Can i just say something:

WHO CARES ABOUT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE!!!!????????? :shrug:

If it works for someone, then I will try it! I don't care what the science is behind it!

Why are some people on here intent on shooting down somebodys theories!? What does it achieve apart from giving us one less option to try for our acne? Its not as if we have a lot of options anyway!

Its like some people are determined to prove we, as acne sufferers, are beyond help.

WELL WE'RE NOT!

Stop fighting, let people make their own choices, and stop trying to get one over on each other!

:wall:

Rant over, I feel better now! :D

i agree...thank god... i dont understand why tap is goin after smashingpumpkins...she said it WORKS for her... why wuld hse lie to us? lol its not like shes making money off of this 4$ jug of ACV if we buy one as well lol.

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Thank You Mimi

Another reason why Taps ideas about ACV are flawed is because he has no references backing them up, he is just pulling things off the top of his head. So what if what I have posted come from websites, i have alost posted forums where people talk about nothing but ACV and what it has doen for them.

There is nothing in pubmed on ACV or malic acid regarding hyperpigmentation. This is the third time I've said it. The reason is because no research has been done on it. This is because no scientist thinks it is worthy enough to study.

I already posted many references backing up glycolic and lactic acid. You cannot win this argument because all you have is your personal experience and some websites which are selling their own ACV products to try and say ACV is as good as the other AHAs. Sadly, that does not cut it.

The point of this thread is for people who are not knowledgeable about red marks and acne and who need advice on what products to use to help them fade. Science and research has supported benzoyl peroxide for acne, and AHAs such as lactic and glycolic acid for hyperpigmentation. Malic acid is not included in any of these studies.

It is obvious that if people want a cure they should try either a peel, lotion, or moisturizer with LA or GA.

It's like when you have an unknown disease. Do you go to an MD who knows conventional medicine or do you go to a naturopathic doctor who will change your diet? The answer is clear.

Dude, i don't agree with you. The reason people want to try ACV is because there is nothing else out there that can 100% get rid of red marks. The reason 'dermatoligists' or 'scientists' will never look into it is because of money. They'd much rather say some shitty neutrogena cream has been 'dermatolgically tested' to get rid of red marks, so that people will spend loads on them. When ACV is so cheap, and it will never get a label on it saying 'dermatolgically tested' because its not identifibally a skin product. It has many uses.

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Thank You Mimi

Another reason why Taps ideas about ACV are flawed is because he has no references backing them up, he is just pulling things off the top of his head. So what if what I have posted come from websites, i have alost posted forums where people talk about nothing but ACV and what it has doen for them.

There is nothing in pubmed on ACV or malic acid regarding hyperpigmentation. This is the third time I've said it. The reason is because no research has been done on it. This is because no scientist thinks it is worthy enough to study.

I already posted many references backing up glycolic and lactic acid. You cannot win this argument because all you have is your personal experience and some websites which are selling their own ACV products to try and say ACV is as good as the other AHAs. Sadly, that does not cut it.

The point of this thread is for people who are not knowledgeable about red marks and acne and who need advice on what products to use to help them fade. Science and research has supported benzoyl peroxide for acne, and AHAs such as lactic and glycolic acid for hyperpigmentation. Malic acid is not included in any of these studies.

It is obvious that if people want a cure they should try either a peel, lotion, or moisturizer with LA or GA.

It's like when you have an unknown disease. Do you go to an MD who knows conventional medicine or do you go to a naturopathic doctor who will change your diet? The answer is clear.

Dude, i don't agree with you. The reason people want to try ACV is because there is nothing else out there that can 100% get rid of red marks. The reason 'dermatoligists' or 'scientists' will never look into it is because of money. They'd much rather say some shitty neutrogena cream has been 'dermatolgically tested' to get rid of red marks, so that people will spend loads on them. When ACV is so cheap, and it will never get a label on it saying 'dermatolgically tested' because its not identifibally a skin product. It has many uses.

You put that so nicely, it is exactly what I have bee trying to say. You took the words right out of my mouth, CONGRATS!

well acv is definitely evening out my skin tone, this is like week two.

huge improvement. better than any product I've ever tried.

*shrug*

Thanks Smashing Pumpkins.

GREAT BAND BY THE WAY! MAYONAISE IS MY FAVORITE SONG

:) it def. is a great song.

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Just saw this while looking up apple cider. Apple cider has a high concentration of acetic acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid

Acetic acid is corrosive, and its vapour is irritating to eyes and nose...acetic acid is corrosive and must therefore be handled with appropriate care, since it can cause skin burns, permanent eye damage, and irritation to the mucous membranes

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Great thread BUT you have to see the studies differently because this is a redmark forum. Things like recommending Glycolic over Jessners for the sole reason of exfoliation is giving people the wrong impression here. The quickest way to get rid of redmakrs is an intensive peel. It was noted that Jessners showed a significant difference in exfoliation over glycolic and that can only mean good things for redmarks. I don't know how well Jessners is tolerated on acne but I do know that it's a superior peel.

Exfoliation=more even skin tone if not overdone(Meaning leaving the peel on for an insane time or doing peels too close together. One Jessner peel every 2 months is going to give better results than glycolic.

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Tap "While acetic acid is used to identify vinegar, past research has found that apple cider vinegar also contains some lactic, citric and malic acids." - University of Arkansas has been doing plenty of research on ACV. All three of those are AHA's you yourself rave about Lactic acid well there ya go.

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Just saw this while looking up apple cider. Apple cider has a high concentration of acetic acid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid

Acetic acid is corrosive, and its vapour is irritating to eyes and nose...acetic acid is corrosive and must therefore be handled with appropriate care, since it can cause skin burns, permanent eye damage, and irritation to the mucous membranes

ummm HELLO its an ACID...of course it could be damaging to eyes!! it depends wat the CONCENTRATION is. AHHHHHHH 5% IS NOT VERY MUCH

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