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~TEPL0~

what my derm said about clenasers and moisturizers

When my acne was really bad, I went to a respected derm who gave me BP, and told me to wash my face with a BAR soap and to use as little moisturizer as possible. She said "the point is to DRY OUT your face"

When I use Dan's regimen, I get best results when my face is very dry. The only way to achieve this is by using a harsh soap (like Purpose bar) but using it very gently, with slightly warm water, so it doesn't irritate.

I'm not a fan of derm advice, since this derm was also the one who gave me antibiotics which caused health problems later on, but I'd have to agree with her on the dryness issue.

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I used to think that because I had acne, that meant that I had oily skin that caused my acne, so the best way to deal with it was to dry it out. I used all sorts of really drying salicyclic acid or antibacterial washes/bars and lotions. I never used moisturizer because I thought I wasn't supposed to. Well, after all those drying products, what did I have to show for it? A flaky, peeling face that made my STILL ACTIVE acne hurt more. Nah, I'm going to have to disagree with both you and your derm, T∑PLØ. By not drying my face out while trying to treat acne with the regimen, my skin cleared up completely and still has no signs of dryness or irritation. Perhaps the school of thought of "dry your face out and your acne will disappear" works for some people, but I think for others like me it can cause more harm than good.

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I'm starting to believe dry skin is very bad and causes acne if your skin breaks. Instead keep your skin hydrated by drinking plenty of water and using plenty of moisturiser. I'm sure someone here will set me straight if I'm wrong.

jim

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Dry skin is much more prone to comedone formation thqn hydrated skin. The dinstinction that needs to be be made is between dry and dehydrated.

Your skin can still feel oily, yet harsh products can dehydrate your skin causing those BP "wrinkles" blackheads and clogged pores.

I wonder if the dryness and irritation of BP while on the regimen causes a lot more clogged pores in people based on the numerous "What are all these little bumps all over!!!" posts that pop up constantly. Dry skin is very very bad for acne.

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Dry skin is much more prone to comedone formation thqn hydrated skin. The dinstinction that needs to be be made is between dry and dehydrated.

Your skin can still feel oily, yet harsh products can dehydrate your skin causing those BP "wrinkles" blackheads and clogged pores.

I wonder if the dryness and irritation of BP while on the regimen causes a lot more clogged pores in people based on the numerous "What are all these little bumps all over!!!" posts that pop up constantly. Dry skin is very very bad for acne.

haha i'm one of those 'what are all these little bumps on my face' posters. i did notice that when i used BP frequently it completely dried out my face and then those pesky little bumps appeared that I have yet to get rid of. It would make sense that extreme dry skin causes more harm than good. I've stopped using BP and started using a moisturizing salicylic acid gel....any ideas on how to get rid of these little bumps leftover from extreme dryness?

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i think u should do the harsh product thing if you have really oily skin and the gentle one if you have sensitive/normal/kinda oily skin

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Dry skin is much more prone to comedone formation thqn hydrated skin. The dinstinction that needs to be be made is between dry and dehydrated.

Your skin can still feel oily, yet harsh products can dehydrate your skin causing those BP "wrinkles" blackheads and clogged pores.

I wonder if the dryness and irritation of BP while on the regimen causes a lot more clogged pores in people based on the numerous "What are all these little bumps all over!!!" posts that pop up constantly. Dry skin is very very bad for acne.

haha i'm one of those 'what are all these little bumps on my face' posters. i did notice that when i used BP frequently it completely dried out my face and then those pesky little bumps appeared that I have yet to get rid of. It would make sense that extreme dry skin causes more harm than good. I've stopped using BP and started using a moisturizing salicylic acid gel....any ideas on how to get rid of these little bumps leftover from extreme dryness?

The SA may work but may not be strong enough. Any exfoliant could work. You just have to find the one that is effective for you. Retinoids are the strongest and worked for me in getting rid of my clogged pores.

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I agree with the derm. The dryer my face is, the less breakouts I have. The more oily and the more moisturizer I use, the more I breakout.

Dry doesn't cause acne. When your face is too dry, your face reacts by producing more sebum, causing it to become oily and to have breakouts. Again, it is the oil that causes the breakouts, not the dryness.

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I agree with the derm. The dryer my face is, the less breakouts I have. The more oily and the more moisturizer I use, the more I breakout.

Dry doesn't cause acne. When your face is too dry, your face reacts by producing more sebum, causing it to become oily and to have breakouts. Again, it is the oil that causes the breakouts, not the dryness.

Wrong. Skin produces sebum at a continual rate and doesn't. If you dry it out more it doesn't create more oil to compensate. That is a myth that was debunked about 50 years ago. The skin doesn't "react". It's not able to. That is just a really old myth.

Dry skin can cause more comedones to form and irritation due to the dryness. Dry skin can definately cause acne because drier skin produces more dead skin and the added possible irritation makes it much more difficult for the dead skin to slough off causing more clogged pores and, thus, more acne.

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Wrong. Skin produces sebum at a continual rate and doesn't. If you dry it out more it doesn't create more oil to compensate. That is a myth that was debunked about 50 years ago. The skin doesn't "react". It's not able to. That is just a really old myth.

Dry skin can cause more comedones to form and irritation due to the dryness. Dry skin can definately cause acne because drier skin produces more dead skin and the added possible irritation makes it much more difficult for the dead skin to slough off causing more clogged pores and, thus, more acne.

Wrong. Dry skin causes increased sebum. I would believe a dermatologist with a medical degree over you. Oily skin causes acne. Dry skin may irritate, but doesn't cause acne.

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Wrong. Skin produces sebum at a continual rate and doesn't. If you dry it out more it doesn't create more oil to compensate. That is a myth that was debunked about 50 years ago. The skin doesn't "react". It's not able to. That is just a really old myth.

Dry skin can cause more comedones to form and irritation due to the dryness. Dry skin can definately cause acne because drier skin produces more dead skin and the added possible irritation makes it much more difficult for the dead skin to slough off causing more clogged pores and, thus, more acne.

Wrong. Dry skin causes increased sebum. I would believe a dermatologist with a medical degree over you. Oily skin causes acne. Dry skin may irritate, but doesn't cause acne.

Well, Kligmen did studies on this issue about 50 years ago proving the feedback theory wrong. He is the most famous and maybe most well-respected Derm in history. One user "bryan" tested this theory himself using sebutape and found it wasn't true. It's been proven wrong. Dry skin producing more sebum has been proven wrong for 50 some years. It's a myth. Sorry.

Also, Oily skin doesn't cause acne. There are plenty of people with oily skin who do not have acne. If your skin can shed correctly and your pores don't clog, you could have the oiliest skin in the world and not have a single breakout. Plus, you also have to consider hormones, dietary triggers, keratinization, external triggers(weather, stress, other irritations). Oily skin may make acne worse but it is by no means the sole cause. Why else would some people with normal or dry skin still get acne? How would you explain those people?

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Wrong. Dry skin causes increased sebum. I would believe a dermatologist with a medical degree over you. Oily skin causes acne. Dry skin may irritate, but doesn't cause acne.

Not according to a recent study that noted, among other things, the effect of low relative humidity on sebum production: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

Basically, here's the relevant part of the abstract:

"In order to compare the physiological and the subjective responses to low relative humidity of elderly and young men, we measured saccharin clearance time (SCT), frequency of blinking, hydration state of the skin, transepidermal water loss (TEWL), sebum level recovery and skin temperatures as physiological responses...The test-room conditions were adjusted to provide 25 degrees C Ta and RH levels of 10%, 30% and 50%. RH had no effect on the activity of the sebaceous gland or change of mean skin temperature...Under 30% RH, the eyes and skin become dry, and under 10% RH the nasal mucous membrane becomes dry as well as the eyes and skin. These findings suggested that to avoid dryness of the eyes and skin, it is necessary to maintain greater than 30% RH, and to avoid dryness of the nasal mucous membrane, it is necessary to maintain greater than 10% RH."

So these subjects were exposed to conditions that dried out their skin, yet experienced no change in sebum production. Hmm...

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Well, Kligmen did studies on this issue about 50 years ago proving the feedback theory wrong. He is the most famous and maybe most well-respected Derm in history. One user "bryan" tested this theory himself using sebutape and found it wasn't true. It's been proven wrong. Dry skin producing more sebum has been proven wrong for 50 some years. It's a myth. Sorry.

Also, Oily skin doesn't cause acne. There are plenty of people with oily skin who do not have acne. If your skin can shed correctly and your pores don't clog, you could have the oiliest skin in the world and not have a single breakout. Plus, you also have to consider hormones, dietary triggers, keratinization, external triggers(weather, stress, other irritations). Oily skin may make acne worse but it is by no means the sole cause. Why else would some people with normal or dry skin still get acne? How would you explain those people?

I feel better now that bryan tested this theory and proved it wrong. :lol:

You can say what you want. Whenever my skin has been dry, I don't breakout. When my face gets greasy and oily, I breakout. The bp helps dry my face which helps in preventing pimples. The original poster said that he or she does not breakout as much with a dry face.

I'm sure a lot of people would agree to the above, that an oily face causes them to breakout. All anyone can really do is try each alternative. Have an oily vs a dry face and see whether they breakout more with the former or latter. I'm sure they will come to the conclusion that most logical people do. When their face is more oily they get more pimples. :angel:

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I feel better now that bryan tested this theory and proved it wrong. :lol:

You can say what you want. Whenever my skin has been dry, I don't breakout. When my face gets greasy and oily, I breakout. The bp helps dry my face which helps in preventing pimples. The original poster said that he or she does not breakout as much with a dry face.

I'm sure a lot of people would agree to the above, that an oily face causes them to breakout. All anyone can really do is try each alternative. Have an oily vs a dry face and see whether they breakout more with the former or latter. I'm sure they will come to the conclusion that most logical people do. When their face is more oily they get more pimples. :angel:

I think you're mixing up a couple of things here. Increased sebum production absolutely contributes to acne. But you can't really do much to change your sebum production aside from accutane, no matter how much you dry out your face. One more PubMed link for you: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

Relevant quote: "The sebaceous glands secrete continuously, producing sebum that consists predominantly of triglycerides, wax esters, and squalene. High rates of sebum production per sebocyte result in low levels of linoleate in the sebaceous esters, subjecting the follicular epithelium to essential fatty acid deficiency and the characteristic hyperkeratosis that results in comedo formation. Suppression of sebum production by drugs elevates sebum linoleate concentration and relieves follicular hyperkeratosis. Thus, sebum continues to be a prime suspect in the crime of acne. Low levels of sebaceous gland activity are not correlated with the occurrence of dry skin."

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Wrong. Dry skin causes increased sebum. I would believe a dermatologist with a medical degree over you. Oily skin causes acne. Dry skin may irritate, but doesn't cause acne.

Not according to a recent study that noted, among other things, the effect of low relative humidity on sebum production: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

Basically, here's the relevant part of the abstract:

"In order to compare the physiological and the subjective responses to low relative humidity of elderly and young men, we measured saccharin clearance time (SCT), frequency of blinking, hydration state of the skin, transepidermal water loss (TEWL), sebum level recovery and skin temperatures as physiological responses...The test-room conditions were adjusted to provide 25 degrees C Ta and RH levels of 10%, 30% and 50%. RH had no effect on the activity of the sebaceous gland or change of mean skin temperature...Under 30% RH, the eyes and skin become dry, and under 10% RH the nasal mucous membrane becomes dry as well as the eyes and skin. These findings suggested that to avoid dryness of the eyes and skin, it is necessary to maintain greater than 30% RH, and to avoid dryness of the nasal mucous membrane, it is necessary to maintain greater than 10% RH."

So these subjects were exposed to conditions that dried out their skin, yet experienced no change in sebum production. Hmm...

Hi folks,

This is very interesting, heres what my doctor said to me about it -:

He said that skin dryness was detected by the hypothalamus, and sebum was released to counter dry skin.

Im not sure whos correct in this debate, hard to say?

:)

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Hi folks,

This is very interesting, heres what my doctor said to me about it -:

He said that skin dryness was detected by the hypothalamus, and sebum was released to counter dry skin.

Im not sure whos correct in this debate, hard to say?

:)

Yes that makes sense, and that would be another doctor that agrees. I am sure there is research that supports both sides as there generally is regarding most controversial topics.

It may be similar to bp and whether it causes cancer. Further research may need to be done.

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Well, Kligmen did studies on this issue about 50 years ago proving the feedback theory wrong. He is the most famous and maybe most well-respected Derm in history. One user "bryan" tested this theory himself using sebutape and found it wasn't true. It's been proven wrong. Dry skin producing more sebum has been proven wrong for 50 some years. It's a myth. Sorry.

Also, Oily skin doesn't cause acne. There are plenty of people with oily skin who do not have acne. If your skin can shed correctly and your pores don't clog, you could have the oiliest skin in the world and not have a single breakout. Plus, you also have to consider hormones, dietary triggers, keratinization, external triggers(weather, stress, other irritations). Oily skin may make acne worse but it is by no means the sole cause. Why else would some people with normal or dry skin still get acne? How would you explain those people?

I feel better now that bryan tested this theory and proved it wrong. :lol:

You can say what you want. Whenever my skin has been dry, I don't breakout. When my face gets greasy and oily, I breakout. The bp helps dry my face which helps in preventing pimples. The original poster said that he or she does not breakout as much with a dry face.

I'm sure a lot of people would agree to the above, that an oily face causes them to breakout. All anyone can really do is try each alternative. Have an oily vs a dry face and see whether they breakout more with the former or latter. I'm sure they will come to the conclusion that most logical people do. When their face is more oily they get more pimples. :angel:

That doesn't make sense. You said that dry skin causes the skin to produce more oil to compensate. How would you have dry skin if your skin starts pumping out more oil to make up for the dryness? Unless you wash your skin constantly you wouldn't be able to maintain dryness according to the feedback theory. You're contradicting yourself.

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That doesn't make sense. You said that dry skin causes the skin to produce more oil to compensate. How would you have dry skin if your skin starts pumping out more oil to make up for the dryness? Unless you wash your skin constantly you wouldn't be able to maintain dryness according to the feedback theory. You're contradicting yourself.

Your face stays dry for awhile. Then in a couple of hours it gets really oily again to compensate for the dryness. The key is to keep your face dry as long as you can and use oil absorbing sheets to blot off excess oil when necessary.

It's better to be dry and blot excess oil off then stay oily all the time, which causes pimples.

If you want to be a greaseball it's fine with me, but don't try to make it seem like it doesn't cause pimples. :D

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That doesn't make sense. You said that dry skin causes the skin to produce more oil to compensate. How would you have dry skin if your skin starts pumping out more oil to make up for the dryness? Unless you wash your skin constantly you wouldn't be able to maintain dryness according to the feedback theory. You're contradicting yourself.

Your face stays dry for awhile. Then in a couple of hours it gets really oily again to compensate for the dryness. The key is to keep your face dry as long as you can and use oil absorbing sheets to blot off excess oil when necessary.

It's better to be dry and blot excess oil off then stay oily all the time, which causes pimples.

If you want to be a greaseball it's fine with me, but don't try to make it seem like it doesn't cause pimples. :D

Oil doesn't cause acne for me. I don't have oily skin. I have naturally dry skin so I will never have to walk around like a "greaseball". So, no, the oil doesn't cause my acne. Don't assume.

And if you have oily skin it continually produces oil. If you dry out your skin, then of course it will get oily again because it will still profuce oil. Just because you put on Bp, it won't magically stop the oil. If you keep blotting the oil, you rskin still produces the same amount of oil constantly. It's not compensating.

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if dry skin caused an increase in oil, then nobody would ever have chronically dry skin.

and we know that some people, despite everything they may have tried, have chronically dry, or oily skin.

Oil does not work via feedback.

I think one of the reasons drying your skin can help heal the pimples is that the acne bacteria feed on the oil. Remove the oil, and they have nothing to eat! But then you are left with dry skin that is irritated. So you add in a synthetic moisturizer to increase hydration (one the bacteria cannot feed off of) but your oil production will stay the same regardless.

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if dry skin caused an increase in oil, then nobody would ever have chronically dry skin.

and we know that some people, despite everything they may have tried, have chronically dry, or oily skin.

Oil does not work via feedback.

I think one of the reasons drying your skin can help heal the pimples is that the acne bacteria feed on the oil. Remove the oil, and they have nothing to eat! But then you are left with dry skin that is irritated. So you add in a synthetic moisturizer to increase hydration (one the bacteria cannot feed off of) but your oil production will stay the same regardless.

Exactly. Dry skin would not exist because the sebaceous glands would just compensate. Moisturizers wouldn't exist either.

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This is gonna be a tough one to get the bottom of. That's because doctors and researchers do not know what causes acne. So it's all hearsay.

But what the heck...I'll throw my hat in the ring anyway. Dry skin does not keep pores clear. Retinoids and to some degree benzoyl peroxide desquamate the follicular epithelium. haha. Just trying to impress. What that means is they speed up shedding of the follicle walls. This in theory prevents the pore from plugging and causing a comedone. But the follicle walls are deep within skin, and that's why we always say that dirt on the surface of your skin or your skin's natural oilyness or non-oiliness doesn't cause or prevent acne. The pore is clogging root to tip all at the same time due to, as they believe at least, inadequate shedding of follicle wall cells.

I could go on and on, but honestly nobody really knows. For instance, why, if inadequate follicle wall shedding is to blame, does benzoyl peroxide work so much better than retinoids when benzoyl peroxide's main job is to kill acne bacteria and only secondarily acts to shed follicle cell walls?

It's kinda funny. When all is said and done with "research" and "theories" it comes down to what works in the real world. Bottom line is that not irritating your skin too much, which includes not overly drying your skin, along with lots of 2.5% benzoyl peroxide and a good moisturizer work better than anythng besides accutane. That is my experience in over a decade of working with people. I remain open to all other methods and medications but until one works better than the regimen I think it's probably best to do the regimen.

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Perhaps dry or oily skin is academic in the end. For people with oily skin like myself, my main ideal is to keep the pores unclogged and therefore reduce any spots i may get.

If there is a secondary function of skin to feedback its health to the brain, maybe mine is wired incorrectly, in that it produces to much oil all the time. Perhaps dry skin is also incorrectly wired, and does not produce enough oil.

I suppose if acne can exist in both cases, it can mean that the skin cell turnover rate is not occurring quickly enough, and therefore spots in both cases.

Heres the way I got it clear in my head

Normal sebum production = X

Skin cell turnover rate for clear skin = T

if X and T are in balance, then you have skin free of spots. If either one is out of balance then problems occur. For myself, unless i take accutane or B5 i cant control X, so therefore I have to increase the rate of T, by artificial means. Skin peels, glycolic, AHA's etc.

By that way of thinking I have balanced my system and equalised X and T :D

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Perhaps dry or oily skin is academic in the end. For people with oily skin like myself, my main ideal is to keep the pores unclogged and therefore reduce any spots i may get.

If there is a secondary function of skin to feedback its health to the brain, maybe mine is wired incorrectly, in that it produces to much oil all the time. Perhaps dry skin is also incorrectly wired, and does not produce enough oil.

I suppose if acne can exist in both cases, it can mean that the skin cell turnover rate is not occurring quickly enough, and therefore spots in both cases.

Heres the way I got it clear in my head

Normal sebum production = X

Skin cell turnover rate for clear skin = T

if X and T are in balance, then you have skin free of spots. If either one is out of balance then problems occur. For myself, unless i take accutane or B5 i cant control X, so therefore I have to increase the rate of T, by artificial means. Skin peels, glycolic, AHA's etc.

By that way of thinking I have balanced my system and equalised X and T :D

I agree. If your pores never clogged then you, for the most part, cannot develope acne. You could have the oiliest or driest skin with P/Acnes all over, but if the pore doesn't clog in the first place you won't develope acne (of course, hormonal acne and possibly food allergy/dietaery acne may be exceptions...)

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I would argue that those with oily faces are more prone to acne. Below is my source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acne_vulgaris

The most common form of acne is known as "acne vulgaris", meaning "common acne." Excessive secretion of oils from the sebaceous glands combines with naturally occurring dead skin cells to block the hair follicles. There also appears to be in some instances a faulty keritinization process in the skin leading to abnormal shedding of skin lining the pores. Oil secretions build up beneath the blocked pore, providing a perfect environment for the skin bacteria Propionibacterium acnes to multiply uncontrolled.

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