DIM helped me get rid of my hormonal acne completely after i stopped my intake on sugar , eat less meat and no dairy

Nope, I'm not going to play this game with you. I've got better things to do.

You have demonstrated a significant lack of logic and understanding in the posts I've seen from you, and someone that makes wild claims without citing scientific evidence and contextual interpretation is not worth arguing with. It's like trying to have an intellectual debate with a child; it never goes anywhere due to poor fundamental understanding of the subject material.

I think Green Gables said it best, and I will follow her lead on the matter because I have no desire to make a mess out of her thread. I won't be addressing jlcampi anymo

 

 

To anyone reading this, jlcampi is a brand-new forum member who has decided the best way to make his debut on the sorry "forum scene" is to spam existing posts and tell everyone that the Paleo diet is the fix for all your troubles. I will not be responding further, or "feeding the troll", because the flaws in his logic are too numerous to count and frankly not worth my time. If you have questions about hormonal acne, please feel free to PM me.

LOL

What the hell was that????

You've got some serious issues my friend. You're nuttier than squirrel s***.

LOL

What the hell was that????

You've got some serious issues my friend. You're nuttier than squirrel s***.

A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?

- Albert Einstein

Where to look if you've lost your mind?

- Bernard Malamud

One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.

- Nikola Tesla

Absurdity is the ecstasy of intellectualism.

- Chriss Jami

Were such things here as we do speak about? Or have we eaten on the insane root that takes the reason prisoner?

- William Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Macbeth

"Bears are funny, likewise bear suits."

- Christopher Walken.

"Bears are funny, likewise bear suits."

- Christopher Walken.

Exactly. He gets it.

A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?

- Albert Einstein

Where to look if you've lost your mind?

- Bernard Malamud

One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.

- Nikola Tesla

Absurdity is the ecstasy of intellectualism.

- Chriss Jami

Were such things here as we do speak about? Or have we eaten on the insane root that takes the reason prisoner?

- William Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Macbeth

You are walking down a road and you encounter a fork in the road and you do not know the correct way to go. There are two men standing at the junction and both know the correct road. One man always lies, and the other man always tells the truth, but you do not know who is the liar and who is the one who tells the truth. You can only ask each man one question, but it must be the same question for both. What is the question that would allow you to get the information necessary to choose the correct path?

You are walking down a road and you encounter a fork in the road and you do not know the correct way to go. There are two men standing at the junction and both know the correct road. One man always lies, and the other man always tells the truth, but you do not know who is the liar and who is the one who tells the truth. You can only ask each man one question, but it must be the same question for both. What is the question that would allow you to get the information necessary to choose the correct path?

I'll tell you what. I don't feel good about the last post I made to you. My intent here is not descend into the gutter but rather to be helpful to those I can help and learn something new in the process.

I am willing to delete my posts and start this over. What I really would like to see is real data that refutes my position. I won't argue with anyone on that. I may debate it, but will do so respectfully. I want to learn more about this process.

How very mature of you; I'm impressed. While your posts didn't bother me, I'd think they might offend the other person you mentioned so taking them down would be a kind idea.

Unfortately I have a massive fluid mechanics exam tomorrow, a paper due Wednesday, a circuitry lab report due Thurs, and several other little assignments due throughout the week. For me to properly address your statements and provide sources, I may not get to it until next Saturday. If that is okay with you then I will have the content up by saturday night

In the meantime, you should read through the "Oily Skin Research Thread" that is in my signature. You can see some of the extensive research myself and a few others have already done on the topic, and some of your questions may be answered in there. During the semester I have almost no time for this work, and so you can see it hasn't been updated in quite some time.

Feel free to look through my content as well, as I have made several posts covering oily skin, hormonal related acne (pertaining to men) and exercise's affects on the skin, that you may find interesting.

Very good.

I will take care of that later.

Enjoy the exams. I'm a civil PE.

Here you go jlcampi.

I'll go statement by statement for you, and then if you'd like me to elaborate further I will if I'm still near my computer. Your words are in the quoted text- bubbles

Wow you put a lot of work into this. Some of this is absolutely correct. Unfortunately in many cases it's not.

Why start off a post like this? Whether this was your intention or not; this comes off as quite belittling. Part of being able to communicate your intelligence and debate something is simply setting up the environment to do so; and posting a statement that could be taken as offensive followed by several lines of source-less information is not the way to do it.

Quickly note on testosterone metabolism.
Testosterone is metabolized to estradiol through the aromatase pathway.
Testosterone is metabolized to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) through the 5 alpha reductase pathway.

This is correct. Nothing new here.

DHT does not stimulate sebum production. Testosterone does.

Nope. DHT, being a much more potent metabolite of Testosterone, has a greater effect on sebum production than testosterone. Testosterone does affect sebum production as do pretty much all androgenic hormones, IGF-1, and HGH do; but the extent to how much each plays a role is different. What is the rationale between thinking that Testosterone affects oil, but DHT does not?

I'll provide you with one study, and then let you do most of the reading on this. It is a medically accepted fact that both Test and DHT affect sebum production rates. If you look at google scholar, search PubMed, or browse various Dermatology/Cosmetic Science journals, you'll actually see that they refer to "androgenic activity" rather than single out various metabolites and precursors of Testosterone (there are several) because the levels and ratios of them ALL matter, and it would be incorrect to measure the levels of one and make conclusions based on that without putting those levels in the context of the others.

This study is the most comprehensive I've seen in terms of demonstrating what I was saying above. You should be able to see the full document, and it is great reading because it looks at how and which hormones COULD affect the skin. There is so much variability when it comes to hormones that it is very hard to see anything conclusively without huge and properly controlled trials, and this study shows that. http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=478007

For further reading into seeing how DHT affects oily skin, look up information about 5-alpha reductase inhibitors; there are several studies out that show topical 5-alpha reductase inhibitors decrease sebum production because they inhibit the conversion of testosterone to DHT, re-iterating once again that DHT plays an important role in sebum production.

DHT does not cause PCOS. Elevated Estradiol/Progesterone deficiency does.

I have little knowledge of PCOS whatsoever, as it never applied to my endeavors to improve my skin. BUT, I can say that while DHT may not cause PCOS, several of the physical characteristics that come with PCOS are indicators of high DHT levels.

A brief foray across google leads me to find this http://www.biolreprod.org/content/86/5/149.full

From what the study says, PCOS is very complex and there is no real solid, foolproof approach for treatment as of yet. So how the medical community looks at lessening the impacts of PCOS on an individual is almost purely through controlling the symptoms, and doing this requires an accurate view of how the symptoms come about and what affects them. ANIMAL LOVERS SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH. One of the best ways to see this scientifically and with minimal costs and risks is through the modeling of the disease in trials with large numbers of animals. This study showed how PCOS and PCOS like symptoms was induced in rodents through the administering of various androgens, most notably Testosterone and DHT.

There are several other studies like this, and it demonstrates that PCOS is a much more complex syndrome than your one line sentence implies.

Elevated sugar increases insulin which stimulates sebum production by increasing fat production.

Coffee and sugar based drinks increase aromatase activity that elevate estradiol not DHT

Again, you've attempted to provide one-line answers to questions that doctoral thesis papers have spent 30 pages analyzing. Elevated sugar does increase insulin levels, this is true. This does not increase "fat production" an all cases, it could but it doesn't always. A better way to put it is that insulin "regulates glucose and fat metabolism". It COULD increase sebum production, but this is not known yet, as I couldn't find ANY articles to either confirm or refute that statement. You can read up on how insulin affects hormones and fat metabolism here http://www.jci.org/articles/view/10842

And for coffee and sugar based drinks increasing aromatase activity, where did you find this? And under what mechanisms does this work. Is it the same mechanism for coffee as for sugar based drinks? I cannot spend hours looking up ways to disprove vague and general statements without sources. I have never heard of this in my life, and a quick google search showed nothing but anecdotal evidence supporting AND refuting what you're saying there. If you want, you can refine this statement and I'll get back to you on it.

DHT is not your enemy, sugar and poor diet is.

Not really. Everything I've typed up there pretty much shows that it can be THE most important factor for some. But all of what we are saying here varies SOOO MUCH depending on the person. An example, I used to have a PERFECTLY clean diet because I was an amateur bodybuilder for a time and I while I didn't have severe acne, my skin was tremendously oily.Then enters engineering and a girlfriend, and I found myself not having the time to work out like I used to. I stopped all protein supplements but continued eating healthy, lifted with less volume and intensity, and my skin did a 180. It is pretty much night and day compared to what it was. After doing research and talking with two doctors, I've come to the conclusion that my body is extremely sensitive to androgenic activity. It means that I can change my weight and add muscle easily because my body is ultra responsive to hormonal changes induced by lifting, but it also means that Testosterone and DHT will wreak havoc on my skin. This is actually not an uncommon thing, but many people don't ever go from jock to nerd and back again to notice the difference that lifting induced hormonal activity CAN have on your skin.

Spironactolone will only be used chronically in corrective hormone therapy by the low information physician. This medication will bind to aldosterone receptors causing a change in mineral balance (hydration) in addition to lowering testosterone. This is not a mild medicine and there are many other ways of dealing with hormone imbalances.

Yes. This is corrrect

SPIRO WHEN USED LONG TERM IN RODENT MODELS CAUSES TUMORS.

LOL. This is just dumb. Green Gables addressed this in her post, complete with citations and endnotes, in post #47.

I hope you found that informative, I welcome follow up questions on the topic. I may not be able to answer them though right away because I'm busy with school, but if you start a discussion maybe someone else will take the reins.

Here you go jlcampi.

I'll go statement by statement for you, and then if you'd like me to elaborate further I will if I'm still near my computer. Your words are in the quoted text- bubbles

 

Wow you put a lot of work into this. Some of this is absolutely correct. Unfortunately in many cases it's not.

Why start off a post like this? Whether this was your intention or not; this comes off as quite belittling. Part of being able to communicate your intelligence and debate something is simply setting up the environment to do so; and posting a statement that could be taken as offensive followed by several lines of source-less information is not the way to do it.

Quickly note on testosterone metabolism. Testosterone is metabolized to estradiol through the aromatase pathway. Testosterone is metabolized to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) through the 5 alpha reductase pathway.

This is correct. Nothing new here.

DHT does not stimulate sebum production. Testosterone does.

Nope. DHT, being a much more potent metabolite of Testosterone, has a greater effect on sebum production than testosterone. Testosterone does affect sebum production as do pretty much all androgenic hormones, IGF-1, and HGH do; but the extent to how much each plays a role is different. What is the rationale between thinking that Testosterone affects oil, but DHT does not?

I'll provide you with one study, and then let you do most of the reading on this. It is a medically accepted fact that both Test and DHT affect sebum production rates. If you look at google scholar, search PubMed, or browse various Dermatology/Cosmetic Science journals, you'll actually see that they refer to "androgenic activity" rather than single out various metabolites and precursors of Testosterone (there are several) because the levels and ratios of them ALL matter, and it would be incorrect to measure the levels of one and make conclusions based on that without putting those levels in the context of the others.

This study is the most comprehensive I've seen in terms of demonstrating what I was saying above. You should be able to see the full document, and it is great reading because it looks at how and which hormones COULD affect the skin. There is so much variability when it comes to hormones that it is very hard to see anything conclusively without huge and properly controlled trials, and this study shows that. http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=478007

For further reading into seeing how DHT affects oily skin, look up information about 5-alpha reductase inhibitors; there are several studies out that show topical 5-alpha reductase inhibitors decrease sebum production because they inhibit the conversion of testosterone to DHT, re-iterating once again that DHT plays an important role in sebum production.

DHT does not cause PCOS. Elevated Estradiol/Progesterone deficiency does.

I have little knowledge of PCOS whatsoever, as it never applied to my endeavors to improve my skin. BUT, I can say that while DHT may not cause PCOS, several of the physical characteristics that come with PCOS are indicators of high DHT levels.

A brief foray across google leads me to find this http://www.biolreprod.org/content/86/5/149.full

From what the study says, PCOS is very complex and there is no real solid, foolproof approach for treatment as of yet. So how the medical community looks at lessening the impacts of PCOS on an individual is almost purely through controlling the symptoms, and doing this requires an accurate view of how the symptoms come about and what affects them. ANIMAL LOVERS SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH. One of the best ways to see this scientifically and with minimal costs and risks is through the modeling of the disease in trials with large numbers of animals. This study showed how PCOS and PCOS like symptoms was induced in rodents through the administering of various androgens, most notably Testosterone and DHT.

There are several other studies like this, and it demonstrates that PCOS is a much more complex syndrome than your one line sentence implies.

 

Elevated sugar increases insulin which stimulates sebum production by increasing fat production.

Coffee and sugar based drinks increase aromatase activity that elevate estradiol not DHT

Again, you've attempted to provide one-line answers to questions that doctoral thesis papers have spent 30 pages analyzing. Elevated sugar does increase insulin levels, this is true. This does not increase "fat production" an all cases, it could but it doesn't always. A better way to put it is that insulin "regulates glucose and fat metabolism". It COULD increase sebum production, but this is not known yet, as I couldn't find ANY articles to either confirm or refute that statement. You can read up on how insulin affects hormones and fat metabolism here http://www.jci.org/articles/view/10842

And for coffee and sugar based drinks increasing aromatase activity, where did you find this? And under what mechanisms does this work. Is it the same mechanism for coffee as for sugar based drinks? I cannot spend hours looking up ways to disprove vague and general statements without sources. I have never heard of this in my life, and a quick google search showed nothing but anecdotal evidence supporting AND refuting what you're saying there. If you want, you can refine this statement and I'll get back to you on it.

DHT is not your enemy, sugar and poor diet is.

Not really. Everything I've typed up there pretty much shows that it can be THE most important factor for some. But all of what we are saying here varies SOOO MUCH depending on the person. An example, I used to have a PERFECTLY clean diet because I was an amateur bodybuilder for a time and I while I didn't have severe acne, my skin was tremendously oily.Then enters engineering and a girlfriend, and I found myself not having the time to work out like I used to. I stopped all protein supplements but continued eating healthy, lifted with less volume and intensity, and my skin did a 180. It is pretty much night and day compared to what it was. After doing research and talking with two doctors, I've come to the conclusion that my body is extremely sensitive to androgenic activity. It means that I can change my weight and add muscle easily because my body is ultra responsive to hormonal changes induced by lifting, but it also means that Testosterone and DHT will wreak havoc on my skin. This is actually not an uncommon thing, but many people don't ever go from jock to nerd and back again to notice the difference that lifting induced hormonal activity CAN have on your skin.

Spironactolone will only be used chronically in corrective hormone therapy by the low information physician. This medication will bind to aldosterone receptors causing a change in mineral balance (hydration) in addition to lowering testosterone. This is not a mild medicine and there are many other ways of dealing with hormone imbalances.

Yes. This is corrrect

SPIRO WHEN USED LONG TERM IN RODENT MODELS CAUSES TUMORS.

LOL. This is just dumb. Green Gables addressed this in her post, complete with citations and endnotes, in post #47.

I hope you found that informative, I welcome follow up questions on the topic. I may not be able to answer them though right away because I'm busy with school, but if you start a discussion maybe someone else will take the reins.

CB,

Thank you for the follow up. I much prefer this type of dialog. I came out of the gate swinging and it annoyed several people. Since that's not why I'm here, my approach has changed.

I know you are studying and appreciate the time. I will address some of your comments now, the rest later and look forward to any reply.

I'll start with DHT and agree with you on previous items.

I reviewed the androgen study you quoted. The sample size was small (yes I know I provided nothing and applaud you pointing me to this study.

The data seems to either be inconclusive or substantiate my argument that acne is caused by free T (testosterone) not dht.

Look at the data in table 2 for hormone levels in men and women with and without acne.

In men, those with and without acne had the same level of DHT. Men with acne had higher free T than those without. This seems to support my position that it's free T that is the problem.

In women, there is both higher free T and DHT in those with acne. So, we don't know which is the problem.

I agree that we need the a full hormone panel to understand what's happening, particularly cortisol and estradiol.

PCOS

I will look for some sources on this. Agreed my statement was a bit underwhelming.

It appears that it is rooted in one or more of the following:

Deficient Progesterone, elevated Estradiol;

Deficient Cortisol;

Deficient Thyroid;

Deficient Fatty Acids

I haven't seen any credible data that androgens are anything other than a symptom.

As a side note. I have looked briefly at the study you provided and will review fully later. Be vary wary of a scientist that uses the term Consensus. For consensus to occur you must have a majority which implies a vote. We don't vote in science. The data stands or falls on it's own. If we vote, then factions can form and compromises made. The only time you hear the term consensus used is when there is disagreement, we just don't know the answer and are forming a hypothesis, the topic is political or we are trying to limit liability. Nowhere in the scientific method do you vote.

I will continue reviewing the this and reply...

DHT is one of the most potent forms of testosterone. Yet, too much of it causes BALDING, ACNE, EXCESSIVE LIBIDO, and here's the kicker LOW SPERM COUNT. Good lord, people, please tell me how low sperm, men who act like salivating dogs, and balding is manly. I don't care if you're pumping iron every day and have a sixteen pack...pus-filled cysts on your face, a Donald Trump combover in your early thirties, the inability to ever father children yet humping everything in sight....none of these things are hot. Or manly.

Hormone regulation is about finding a balance of hormones. If you are a man, yes, you don't want to take your testosterone down to zero. But you also don't want to be a horny horndog with acne who can't attract anyone. Sometimes a little less testosterone puts your body in an IDEAL hormone range and actually makes you more attractive. More testosterone does not equal more manly. IDEAL LEVELS of testosterone = manly. Acne is a sign those testosterone levels are NOT ideal.

Different strokes for different folks, but I know A LOT of women who are completely grossed out by little hygiene things. You know, not flossing your teeth. A little bad breath. A little body odor. Not washing your junk. Guess what ranks really high on the gross list? ACNE. SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A RAGING INFECTION ON YOUR FACE. If bodybuilding is that important to you...just realize...having a six pack and bulging arms doesn't compensate for a disease on your FACE which is what people have to look at 99% of the time!!!

Even as a woman who has (obviously) struggled with acne, in my completely hypocritical double standard, I'd take clear skin and a little flab over AcneManWithWashboardAbs any day of the week.

The issue here is that sometimes there's no way to tell how much a certain treatment will affect your body. Too much DHT no doubt causes problems, but there are people who took propecia and other things to balance it out only to eventually face permanent sexual dysfunction which doesn't go away even if you stop taking the drug. We're not talking about being less horny here. We're talking about drastic PERMANENT inability to perform and maintain erection. Having a 90% reduction in libido. There's even been severe cases on propecia where a man would end up getting a sex change operation because he didn't feel like a man anymore. And the effect builds up slowly, it is subtle enough for you to only notice after it's too late. So in a perfect world, yeah you would balance it all out and now you have a clear and attractive face, you don't lose any hair, and you're still good to go whenever you have to. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Perhaps supplements is a less drastic measure, but my point is, generally messing with your DHT levels for a man can have crippling permanent effects on your life, potentially just as bad and worse than your acne in the first place.

- Sorry to quote so much -

You guys know so much, it's overwhelming! After just a few weeks on this forum I've learned more than having 12 years of acne. While you guys were discussing on pcos, I thought maybe you'd recognize some of the 'complains' I had when I was diagnosed with pcos.

I've always been a very skinny, small woman (1.65 m and 49 kg)

Always have been prone to anxiety and stress, even as a little girl

My metabolism seems to be crazy fast. After one hour after breakfast (a heavy one) I'm starting to get really hungry. I can have easily up to 4 bowel movements per day. Not feeling tired or anything, no losing weight. No problems with sleeping.

Started getting acne at 12

Got worse when period started

Got out off control when I quit diane 35 the second time, lack of period, SUPER oily skin, acne on chin, hairline, forehead, upper lip, and eventually cheeks (after very long). Also got some black hairs growing (whutt I'm super blonde) on my upper lip...

Is back in control now, thanks to BCP.

Got anxious on the same time I quit BCP the last time, I even had to do therapy. Lot of stress.

While you guys were talking.. I thought, would these things make any sense to you guys at all? Pcos or even hormone related? When I see this list I think about stress-related pcos... what do you think??

 

Here you go jlcampi.
I'll go statement by statement for you, and then if you'd like me to elaborate further I will if I'm still near my computer. Your words are in the quoted text- bubbles

Wow you put a lot of work into this. Some of this is absolutely correct. Unfortunately in many cases it's not.

Why start off a post like this? Whether this was your intention or not; this comes off as quite belittling. Part of being able to communicate your intelligence and debate something is simply setting up the environment to do so; and posting a statement that could be taken as offensive followed by several lines of source-less information is not the way to do it.

>Quickly note on testosterone metabolism. Testosterone is metabolized to estradiol through the aromatase pathway. Testosterone is metabolized to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) through the 5 alpha reductase pathway.

lockquote>This is correct. Nothing new here.

>DHT does not stimulate sebum production. Testosterone does.

Nope. DHT, being a much more potent metabolite of Testosterone, has a greater effect on sebum production than testosterone. Testosterone does affect sebum production as do pretty much all androgenic hormones, IGF-1, and HGH do; but the extent to how much each plays a role is different. What is the rationale between thinking that Testosterone affects oil, but DHT does not?

I'll provide you with one study, and then let you do most of the reading on this. It is a medically accepted fact that both Test and DHT affect sebum production rates. If you look at google scholar, search PubMed, or browse various Dermatology/Cosmetic Science journals, you'll actually see that they refer to "androgenic activity" rather than single out various metabolites and precursors of Testosterone (there are several) because the levels and ratios of them ALL matter, and it would be incorrect to measure the levels of one and make conclusions based on that without putting those levels in the context of the others.

This study is the most comprehensive I've seen in terms of demonstrating what I was saying above. You should be able to see the full document, and it is great reading because it looks at how and which hormones COULD affect the skin. There is so much variability when it comes to hormones that it is very hard to see anything conclusively without huge and properly controlled trials, and this study shows that. http://archderm.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=478007
For further reading into seeing how DHT affects oily skin, look up information about 5-alpha reductase inhibitors; there are several studies out that show topical 5-alpha reductase inhibitors decrease sebum production because they inhibit the conversion of testosterone to DHT, re-iterating once again that DHT plays an important role in sebum production.

DHT does not cause PCOS. Elevated Estradiol/Progesterone deficiency does.

I have little knowledge of PCOS whatsoever, as it never applied to my endeavors to improve my skin. BUT, I can say that while DHT may not cause PCOS, several of the physical characteristics that come with PCOS are indicators of high DHT levels.

A brief foray across google leads me to find this http://www.biolreprod.org/content/86/5/149.full
From what the study says, PCOS is very complex and there is no real solid, foolproof approach for treatment as of yet. So how the medical community looks at lessening the impacts of PCOS on an individual is almost purely through controlling the symptoms, and doing this requires an accurate view of how the symptoms come about and what affects them. ANIMAL LOVERS SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH. One of the best ways to see this scientifically and with minimal costs and risks is through the modeling of the disease in trials with large numbers of animals. This study showed how PCOS and PCOS like symptoms was induced in rodents through the administering of various androgens, most notably Testosterone and DHT.

There are several other studies like this, and it demonstrates that PCOS is a much more complex syndrome than your one line sentence implies.

Elevated sugar increases insulin which stimulates sebum production by increasing fat production.
Coffee and sugar based drinks increase aromatase activity that elevate estradiol not DHT

Again, you've attempted to provide one-line answers to questions that doctoral thesis papers have spent 30 pages analyzing. Elevated sugar does increase insulin levels, this is true. This does not increase "fat production" an all cases, it could but it doesn't always. A better way to put it is that insulin "regulates glucose and fat metabolism". It COULD increase sebum production, but this is not known yet, as I couldn't find ANY articles to either confirm or refute that statement. You can read up on how insulin affects hormones and fat metabolism here http://www.jci.org/articles/view/10842

And for coffee and sugar based drinks increasing aromatase activity, where did you find this? And under what mechanisms does this work. Is it the same mechanism for coffee as for sugar based drinks? I cannot spend hours looking up ways to disprove vague and general statements without sources. I have never heard of this in my life, and a quick google search showed nothing but anecdotal evidence supporting AND refuting what you're saying there. If you want, you can refine this statement and I'll get back to you on it.

DHT is not your enemy, sugar and poor diet is.

Not really. Everything I've typed up there pretty much shows that it can be THE most important factor for some. But all of what we are saying here varies SOOO MUCH depending on the person. An example, I used to have a PERFECTLY clean diet because I was an amateur bodybuilder for a time and I while I didn't have severe acne, my skin was tremendously oily.Then enters engineering and a girlfriend, and I found myself not having the time to work out like I used to. I stopped all protein supplements but continued eating healthy, lifted with less volume and intensity, and my skin did a 180. It is pretty much night and day compared to what it was. After doing research and talking with two doctors, I've come to the conclusion that my body is extremely sensitive to androgenic activity. It means that I can change my weight and add muscle easily because my body is ultra responsive to hormonal changes induced by lifting, but it also means that Testosterone and DHT will wreak havoc on my skin. This is actually not an uncommon thing, but many people don't ever go from jock to nerd and back again to notice the difference that lifting induced hormonal activity CAN have on your skin.

Spironactolone will only be used chronically in corrective hormone therapy by the low information physician. This medication will bind to aldosterone receptors causing a change in mineral balance (hydration) in addition to lowering testosterone. This is not a mild medicine and there are many other ways of dealing with hormone imbalances.

Yes. This is corrrect

SPIRO WHEN USED LONG TERM IN RODENT MODELS CAUSES TUMORS.

LOL. This is just dumb. Green Gables addressed this in her post, complete with citations and endnotes, in post #47.

I hope you found that informative, I welcome follow up questions on the topic. I may not be able to answer them though right away because I'm busy with school, but if you start a discussion maybe someone else will take the reins.

CB,

Thank you for the follow up. I much prefer this type of dialog. I came out of the gate swinging and it annoyed several people. Since that's not why I'm here, my approach has changed.

I know you are studying and appreciate the time. I will address some of your comments now, the rest later and look forward to any reply.

I'll start with DHT and agree with you on previous items.
I reviewed the androgen study you quoted. The sample size was small (yes I know I provided nothing and applaud you pointing me to this study.

The data seems to either be inconclusive or substantiate my argument that acne is caused by free T (testosterone) not dht.

Look at the data in table 2 for hormone levels in men and women with and without acne.

In men, those with and without acne had the same level of DHT. Men with acne had higher free T than those without. This seems to support my position that it's free T that is the problem.

In women, there is both higher free T and DHT in those with acne. So, we don't know which is the problem.

I agree that we need the a full hormone panel to understand what's happening, particularly cortisol and estradiol.

PCOS
I will look for some sources on this. Agreed my statement was a bit underwhelming.
It appears that it is rooted in one or more of the following:
Deficient Progesterone, elevated Estradiol;
Deficient Cortisol;
Deficient Thyroid;
Deficient Fatty Acids

I haven't seen any credible data that androgens are anything other than a symptom.

As a side note. I have looked briefly at the study you provided and will review fully later. Be vary wary of a scientist that uses the term Consensus. For consensus to occur you must have a majority which implies a vote. We don't vote in science. The data stands or falls on it's own. If we vote, then factions can form and compromises made. The only time you hear the term consensus used is when there is disagreement, we just don't know the answer and are forming a hypothesis, the topic is political or we are trying to limit liability. Nowhere in the scientific method do you vote.

I will continue reviewing the this and reply...

Hi, how are you? It seems like your hormones may just be a little out of whack, or you may be a woman with a high amount of testosterone. Do you have high libido? Do you have higher amounts of body hair then normal? You don't have to post answers to those, but those are good indicators of high androgens (male hormones). It's just genetics, and probably something you can do little about. I'd talk with your doctor, may be get a full blood test to check hormonal and vitamin levels, and then see if anything comes up. I bet your hormones are just still balancing, and in time things should even out for you. If you haven't already, I'd mention to the doctor your concerns about PCOS too.

hey, thanks for responding!! I'm not off the pill yet, but even on the pill I have mild acne... but mild is something I could live with!

I can asnwer those questions! Yes, I do definitely think I have higher libido than a lot of other woman. If I here my girlfriends talk... lol! There's no exessive hair anywhere! I'm a natural blonde, sooo also my armpits and so aren't that hairy. My scalp does have a lot of hair and I never had shedding.

I'm also scared that it will be genetics, but I don't know about the lacking periods and the ovary cysts. That was something I did not have before starting the pill. My dad at 56 still has oily skin, so I already excepted to have that all my life. But I do not feel like I would have to except living with big pussy pimples forever!

 

Hi, how are you? It seems like your hormones may just be a little out of whack, or you may be a woman with a high amount of testosterone. Do you have high libido? Do you have higher amounts of body hair then normal? You don't have to post answers to those, but those are good indicators of high androgens (male hormones). It's just genetics, and probably something you can do little about. I'd talk with your doctor, may be get a full blood test to check hormonal and vitamin levels, and then see if anything comes up. I bet your hormones are just still balancing, and in time things should even out for you. If you haven't already, I'd mention to the doctor your concerns about PCOS too.

erm, i couldn't be bothered to read the big argument above, so i only know what the OP had to say. i might need a little more convincing, because to me taking a bunch of these herbs at the same time, feels sort of like randomly deleting stuff from the windows program folder. also, the vitamin D3 recommendation 5,000-15,000 IU/day seemed a bit high.

any dudes in here who'd like to share their experiences with this stuff?

Dear Green Gables,

I really find interesting your threads. You seem very well informed, so let me ask you, are you a doctor? Dont be offended, but I honestly count on what you say and I would like to know if your info derive from profesion, experience or much googling. I also search the net a lot to find answers, but sometimes it is misleading.

Anyway, I have hormonal acne that returned 7 years after quiting the pill (diane 35). From mid November I started saw palmetto and for a month now vitex. I also use the regimen, but only the benzoyl peroxide step and only at night, so as to control my face. Now it is manageable, and in my former period I noticed less PMS. Is it the supps working? I wish, because I have not noticed any major difference on face. The bp I am planning to use it as a cure once or twice a week, but I will go on with the supps. I get A LOT of sun daily, cause my country is SOOOO sunny. What are your thoughts on my case? I would appreciate your reply !!!

I am male. I have taken Finasteride for almost one year. 1.5mg per day(I split the Proscar to three parts, and take one part each day). The good news is my losing hair really is growing back! The bad news is that it did nothing to my body acne, I still get cyst acne again and again on the back.

I really wanna know why! Maybe the dosage is too low?

Introduction

You thought you would "grow out" of your acne and didn't? You're not alone. Many men and women suffer adult acne in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and beyond. Adults with acne often have hormonal imbalances that linger after puberty, and these imbalances create disfiguring acne.

...

Great read! Thanks for making this all so easy to understand.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to point me in the right direction.

I'm a guy who just turned 23. I've had slightly more than light garden variety acne since I was 15 (Cysts are super rare for me though). Not sure if my puberty has completely stopped, since I recently just started growing hair on my chest, so I could be finishing up pretty soon. My parents haven't had this problem when they were young, so I know it's not hereditary.

I've been on 1 course of Accutane. 40mg/day for 6 months. I know I didn't meet the proper accumulative dose, so it came back after a few months. I'm able to stay completely clear while following The Regimen, but continuous use makes me develop patches of contact dermatitis, so The Regimen hasn't been the answer.

After being fed up, I tried a second course last month, but after 1 month of 40mg/day I got serious side-effects, so had to stop.

This post has intrigued me, so I'm all for trying this hormonal approach with Saw Palmetto plus Stinging Nettle, my only concern is that I'm not sure if I have hormonal acne or not. I know that the some aforementioned food triggers do play a role in me breaking out more. I've been milk free for 2 years and every time I drink some, I break out within a day.

HALP!

 

Introduction

You thought you would "grow out" of your acne and didn't? You're not alone. Many men and women suffer adult acne in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and beyond. Adults with acne often have hormonal imbalances that linger after puberty, and these imbalances create disfiguring acne.

...

Great read! Thanks for making this all so easy to understand.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to point me in the right direction.

I'm a guy who just turned 23. I've had slightly more than light acne since I was 15. Not sure if my puberty has completely stopped, since I recently just started growing hair on my chest, so I could be finishing up pretty soon. My parents haven't had this problem when they were young, so I know it's not hereditary.

I've been on 1 course of Accutane. 40mg/day for 6 months. I know I didn't meet the proper accumulative dose, so it came back after a few months. I'm able to stay completely clear while following The Regimen, but continuous use makes me develop patches of contact dermatitis, so The Regimen hasn't been the answer.

After being fed up, I tried a second course last month, but after 1 month of 40mg/day I got serious side-effects, so had to stop.

This post has intrigued me, so I'm all for trying this hormonal approach with Saw Palmetto plus Stinging Nettle, my only concern is that I'm not sure if I have hormonal acne or not. I know that the some aforementioned food triggers do play a role in me breaking out more. I've been milk free for 2 years and every time I drink some, I break out within a day.

HALP!

I think your best to private message Green gables. She is full of knowledge about hormonal acne as you see.

 

Introduction

You thought you would "grow out" of your acne and didn't? You're not alone. Many men and women suffer adult acne in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and beyond. Adults with acne often have hormonal imbalances that linger after puberty, and these imbalances create disfiguring acne.

...

Great read! Thanks for making this all so easy to understand.

I was wondering if anyone would be able to point me in the right direction.

I'm a guy who just turned 23. I've had slightly more than light acne since I was 15. Not sure if my puberty has completely stopped, since I recently just started growing hair on my chest, so I could be finishing up pretty soon. My parents haven't had this problem when they were young, so I know it's not hereditary.

I've been on 1 course of Accutane. 40mg/day for 6 months. I know I didn't meet the proper accumulative dose, so it came back after a few months. I'm able to stay completely clear while following The Regimen, but continuous use makes me develop patches of contact dermatitis, so The Regimen hasn't been the answer.

After being fed up, I tried a second course last month, but after 1 month of 40mg/day I got serious side-effects, so had to stop.

This post has intrigued me, so I'm all for trying this hormonal approach with Saw Palmetto plus Stinging Nettle, my only concern is that I'm not sure if I have hormonal acne or not. I know that the some aforementioned food triggers do play a role in me breaking out more. I've been milk free for 2 years and every time I drink some, I break out within a day.

HALP!

I think your best to private message Green gables. She is full of knowledge about hormonal acne as you see.

I quoted her original post, which will notify her, as well as messaged her directly. Thanks for the suggestion though!

I am aware of how quoting will give her notifications. I've talked with her before and know she prefers private messages, which is why I suggested it. She also requested private messages and no responding to her topic in her initial posting. Glad you did go ahead and sent her a private message though. Good luck to you.