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I made my appointment today for Oct. 3 for my 2nd session of Fraxel. I'm excited and nervous at the same time. I talked with my doctor's assistant about the new Fraxel procedure, and she said the only place where they've had to use injections for pain was on top of the lip area. I'm getting my temples, cheeks, and chin done this time instead of the full face. I have 6 more appointments to go through, and I'd like to spread them out 3 to 4 weeks apart this time. She said they're having great results with the new Fraxel. I'm using copper peptides at night, and she said I can continue to use them right up to the procedure. This will be the last thing I do for my scarring, so I'm hoping I get some good results. I'll keep you guys posted.
Do you know if they work for shallow ice pick scarring?
Honestly, the old Fraxel did the least amount of good on my ice pick scars. It filled in the best on the larger, indented scars. (rolling I think it's called) I believe the newer Fraxel will work better on all my scars.
My second fraxel appt is 9/19. Full face, new machine.
I THINK I see very very minor improvement in a couple of areas from the first one, but I'm not sure. I could be imagining it. 
I'm going to have them done at least 3 weeks apart, as I STILL have a bit of dryness/flaking from the first go round, and it's been two weeks already!
I for one am very curious to see if people notice better results from the new machine. If I'm not mistaken, supposedly the new machine focuses more on the scared areas than the non-scarred areas. ItAaas also supposed to go deeper.
Does it go deeper at lower energy levels than the older machine?
Attached is an Excel file documenting my disappointing Fraxel results. Has anyone else had the VISIA computer scan? I will have my youngest daughter take a post photo as close as possilbe to my pre fraxel close ups to see if I can learn anything more.
I am also thinking about emailing this file to Reliant to see what they think of my poor results. Any suggestions?
Well, the upload failed because this site apparently won't accept Excel files. So, you will not see the detailed data and footnotes. However, suffice it to say that my scores for spots, pores, and texture actually got worse from the Fraxel treatments. Wrinkles stayed the same.
Attached is an Excel file documenting my disappointing Fraxel results. Has anyone else had the VISIA computer scan? I will have my youngest daughter take a post photo as close as possilbe to my pre fraxel close ups to see if I can learn anything more.
I am also thinking about emailing this file to Reliant to see what they think of my poor results. Any suggestions?
Well, the upload failed because this site apparently won't accept Excel files. So, you will not see the detailed data and footnotes. However, suffice it to say that my scores for spots, pores, and texture actually got worse from the Fraxel treatments. Wrinkles stayed the same.
How much worse????? What were your pre-fraxel percentages vs. your current percentages??? The only thing I can think is that maybe visia is not accurate enough for scar analysis. I was shocked at my numbers, if you remember, but some of my deepest scars barely registered on the photo, and aren't acknowleged as any different from my smallest scars...
Billyboy's Fraxel Results as measured by VISIA computer imaging, Complexion Analysis Report
Right Side of Face Left Side of Face
Pre FraxelPost FraxelPre FraxelPost FraxelConclusion
Percentile scores for those of same age and sex. High scores are better.
Spots66%54%49%40%Lower scores could reflect more sun
Pores51%30%29%17%I view this as proxy for scarring!
Wrinkles94%94%96%99%Oily skin keeps me wrinkle free for old
Texture88%70%60%58%I am surprised by this because my skin feels softer to me.
# Skin features detected (lower scores are better)
Porphyrins247189458341On these measures, I had a nice improvement with invisible, deeper skin defects related to sun damage
UV spots187154211180
Notes
Pre Fraxel scans done 3/9/06
Post Fraxel scans done 9/12/06 after 4 Fraxel treatments, the first on 3/9/06, the last on 7/11/06
Pre Fraxel my skin was reddish sunburnt looking, Post Fraxel it is tan like the rest of my skin. This was a big improvement in my Rosacea, ruddy look.
Dr's office is very surprised by negative results and think it might be due to the change in color (i.e., the sunburnt look hid the defects from the first scan). I doubt this.
Pre/post Dr digital photos were not in same light, angle, etc. Also, they were not close enough to detect scarring.
Scarring is not evident in VISIA photos, but overlaid scattergram of pores corresponds to my scarring.
Also, my left side is definitely my worst side, so the relative VISIA scores correspond to what I would expect.
Ok, I pasted Excel file into reply above, but the formatting did not turn out right. The numbers in a row start with right side of face (pre, then post) and then left side. Then I add a brief comment. For example, my worst side is my left. Pre Fraxel I was 29th percentile, after Fraxel I dropped to 17th percentile. This is very unsettling to me. Because I am wrinkle free, I have higher percentile scores across the board for wrinkles.
Hope this helps
Billyboy, the PA I have been going to had a Visia done for me following my 5 Fraxels. Because they didn't do this pre-Fraxel I have nothing to compare it to. I think they did it to try to get me to go for additional treatments and products (you know, the more we can show you have wrong, the more you think you have to fix). The report and pictures give me percentages that do not refer to the left or right side of face. Do you think this is inadequately done, it sounds a little scam like to me.
Visia aside how do you perceive the overall appearance of your skin? What is your satisfaction level and how many Fraxels have you completed?
PS- The Visia results only ran from undereye to corner of mouth and from side of nose to ear and temple. No lower face, forehead or nose. Is this the way they did yours? Did they do it at no cost or were you charged? Thanks.
Billyboy and anyone interested in the Visia imaging readout. I Googled Canfield.com, once in the site hit "Imaging systems", under "Products" hit "Visia", on the right is a "Product Information" heading, hit "Frequently Asked Questions". Read this article.
It seems there are several variables that can effect the reading outcomes (including face washing etc.), none of which were discussed with me by my PA prior to my Visia imaging. Billyboy I am wondering if your readings might be skewed due to any of these variables, including changes from your first to second Visia.
Lexus
You ask great questions.
First, I am very happy with change in color from red to tan and my skin feels softer. However, I have never been sure on whehter it helped scars. I wanted to believe it was helping - I guess that is why there is the placebo effect, but I was always underwhelmed by what improvement I perceived.
But, frankly, with the Visia results I am now of the opinion that it did not help scarring. The Visia was included in the price of my series of 4 Fraxels. They even gve me a $50 certificate as an incentive to come back for photos and Visia, which I used for a deep tissue massage of my tight buttock and hamstring muscles. I had to drive about 70 miles to Stockton CA from SF Bay Area, so I was not sure I wanted to do that. Other than botching the digital photo comparison, I actually think this Clinic knows what they are doing and their prices were very reasonalbe for CA. So I am not disappointed with them and am reasonably satisfied with results. I just won't go back for more, as I like my color, and I don't think it will improve my scarring, which is mild.
We discussed whether washing face made a difference. I did the wash before yesterday's visit and could not recall with 100% certainty that I did so in March, but I am 95% certain I did. I have 2 theories for the weaker results in #2: 1. The red color in March may have interfered with scan #1. 2. More likely, I have not fully healed ( I am 55 and spend a lot of time in sun) so the tiny holes created by Fraxel have not filled in with collagen yet (this is a 6 month process, and perhaps longer as we age) and the Visia may have idnetified these as more small pores, contributing to a lower score.
I had one scan for each side. It did not cover forehead, nose, chin, etc. The photo print outs are not large enoguh to perceive scars. However, they spent time with me toggling back and forth between pre and post screen shots (which are way larger than prints of photos) where you could clearly see 2 scars and a couple of scarred pores. I did not perceive much difference, other than the much improved color. The staff were confused by my perverse results, as this is not what normally happens. Again, I think it has to do with my sun exposure this summer. I use sunblock heavily, but I am aslo a daily outfoor swimmer.
It would be helpful to all of us, if others have the VISIA pre and post scan and post results. I think it is an objective measure.
Lexus, thanks for making me look at the FAQs on that Canfield/ VISIA site. I feel way better about results. Spots are defined as larger circular contrasts associated with freckles, acne scars and the like. Pores are much smaller in the VISIA analysis. In comparing the pre and post scattergrams for spots, I can see that the post identified many new areas where I have no scars or large pores, but rather light sun freckling, that apparently was not freckled in early March. So, I think the reduced scores on this measure are from sun exposure, not Fraxel.
While I no longer see Pores as a proxy for scars, I continue to believe that Fraxel exacerbated my pores by creating lots of small holes that have not filled in.
That said, unless I read/see some really hard data about Fraxel efficacy for scarring, I am calling it quits.
Lexus, thanks for making me look at the FAQs on that Canfield/ VISIA site. I feel way better about results. Spots are defined as larger circular contrasts associated with freckles, acne scars and the like. Pores are much smaller in the VISIA analysis. In comparing the pre and post scattergrams for spots, I can see that the post identified many new areas where I have no scars or large pores, but rather light sun freckling, that apparently was not freckled in early March. So, I think the reduced scores on this measure are from sun exposure, not Fraxel.
While I no longer see Pores as a proxy for scars, I continue to believe that Fraxel exacerbated my pores by creating lots of small holes that have not filled in.
That said, unless I read/see some really hard data about Fraxel efficacy for scarring, I am calling it quits.
Crap, I was hoping this would work for me, but if it makes pores larger no way!
Did it help with other scars? I don't go by tests, just what I see in the mirror......
Jodie
I understand what counts is how you think people see your face and that the mirror test is the best way to judge that. That siad, the "mirror perception test" is so susceptible to lighting, angle, daily mood swings, and the placebo effect; that I think there is value to another more controlled, objective measure like Visia.
Also, while I think the Fraxel created way more "pores", I don't think they are visible to the naked eye. For me, it comes down to this. I improved my skin color, but did not know if I improved scars (I thoguht I had a little improvement from the mirror test). Visia data suggests otherwise. So, it does not make sense for me to try more treatments. I would have gone for more Fraxels had the VISIA data shown improvement - that's how unsure I was about mirror test.
Don't let my experience unduly influence your deciscions, as I simply want to add more data to this long thread. You might get a great result. As noted, I am not unhappy I did this, but I am far from thrilled.
Billyboy did the doctor use really high settings or low settings during the treatments? Also I would try to get 6-7 for acne scarring before making a decision about their effectiveness. Obviously if it made the pores worse then that is a problem and probably shouldnt be continued.
In any case everyone is different. I have scarring almost exactly like MasterK had and he has beautiful skin after 12 excisions and 6 Fraxels. But whatever the outcome my skin looks nice now anyway after a year of using scar rubs and doing real microdermabrasions every 2 weeks, 3 subcisions, and one excision.
I actually talked to a nurse at Dr. Shidelers in Carmel Indiana that had pretty bad scars the first time I was there. I saw her 5 or 6 months later when I got my stitches out of the excision i had. I swear to god she had a major change and she only did the fraxels. Her scars were still there but looked a lot better. She also had like tons more scars than I do and they were much deeper. Her great improvement made me happy and I am sure things will work out great. God she is lucky though to work there and get those prob free or very discounted. She was also a very attractive person so that helps.
Keith
When my daughter is home this weekend, I will have her take close up photos in hopefully the same lgiht. I have some pre float and pre fraxel photos that are really close up, in very harsh light that highlighted my worst pretreamtnet scarring. The problem is that this pixctures are way bigger than allowed on this site, so I think I will have to downsize alot and the scarring detail may be lost. Scarring may not even be visible in small pictures. Does anyone know how to attach a link so you can access large files from this site?
My 4 treatments were at 15, 20, and 2 at 25. I want to list again my benefits from Fraxel:
1. My reddish color turned tan. A+
2. Red was combo of mild rosacea, sun exposure, and seb derm. Seb derm is a disease that older males are prone to if they have oily skin and strong male hormonal activity. So, this will often crop up in people that had acne in teens. Docs think fungi feed on oil in seb glands, which causes periodic flares of red, itchy flaky skin (dandruff). I still get periodic flares of this in hair, in ears and behind ears that cause dead skin to flake. I used to get this on sides of nose, cheeks and eyebrows coincident with flares in hair. I noticed that I stopped getting this on face after first fraxel, even though I still got it in eyebrows, hair and ears. So, I had nurse zap my eyebrows in ensuing Fraxels. Now my flares have ceased in eyebrows. I know this worked like a charm. A+
3. I had a face pimple in one fraxel and it healed really fast. More importatnly, I am prone to getting pimples on front thighs that don't heal well because the skin is so hard and thick (probably limited blood supply), producing a raised, hard, red scar. I had 3. I asked nurse to zap them, but she said 2 looked bad and she would only try the one that looked the least bad. I persuaded her to treat that plus the next worst. By my next visit, these 2 had healed perfectly, but the other still looked really, really bad, so she zapped that. Now, it has healed perfectly level but still has a slightly darker color, which I kwow will fade. B+
4. My skin feels baby smooth soft. B
5. I am not sure on scarring, but I would give it no better tan C+ at this point. Until the Visia test results I tought I had a small improvement. Maybe pending photos will tell me otherwise.
My visual test is to wedge my face between a bathroom mirror and a mirror on back of med cabinet so I can get a close up with my reading glasses and easily change the angle of how I look at my face, becasue angle makes a big difference. I have to do this because I don't really have scars on central face or forehead, and the ones on the side are not evidnent unless I get really close and look at angle.
My acne scarring is my worst feature and I would sure like to fix it, but man it has been hard to see results. However, I am pretty happy with who I am, so I can live with it. And, Fraxel was a good thing for my face.
I went ahead and had a fraxel treatment. It is pretty depressing seeing yourself look good right after and then about a week later all the ugliness re-emerges. I have not had a breakout for maybe 8 months and all the junk they told me to put on my face made me break out again. I will stick to a better moisturizer next time and see if I can avoid the breakouts. I do not believe it is the fraxel that is making me break out but rather the aftercare the doc recommended.
I had forgotten how much breaking out sucks. With scars, you know what you're waking up to, but with breakouts, every morning is a gamble. Today, I feel nasty. So happy for everyone who is doing well with this treatment. Keep your fingers crossed for me.
Billyboy thanks for the detailed post. Those sound like the perfect settings for treating acne scars.
I have problems doing the large files too. If u load them in your gallery they should work as that holds larger files.
I am definately going to do 6 treatments though and try to get about what your settings are. Whatever happens with the fraxels I will be happy and retire from all of the cosmetic stuff. Well at least till I start to wrinkle or lose my hair lol.
OK here is something that's going to be on fox five ten oclock news about the fraxel wanna be "pixel."
http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/News/De...mp;pageId=3.5.1
i had to laugh at the hype and kids in karate uniforms, but wonder how it compares to fraxel.
of course the doctor says its wonderful and treats everything including large pores and acne scars.
OK here is something that's going to be on fox five ten oclock news about the fraxel wanna be "pixel."
http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/News/De...mp;pageId=3.5.1
i had to laugh at the hype and kids in karate uniforms, but wonder how it compares to fraxel.
of course the doctor says its wonderful and treats everything including large pores and acne scars.
Isnt it amazing that they make like 50 million lasers instead of just getting together and making one that works as effectively as possible? I would also think that with different lasers that mock another that treatements would get cheaper, but this is never the case. Theres like literally 40 different microdermabrasion units used in the US and all are $100 or something for a treatment.
OK here is something that's going to be on fox five ten oclock news about the fraxel wanna be "pixel."
http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/News/De...mp;pageId=3.5.1
i had to laugh at the hype and kids in karate uniforms, but wonder how it compares to fraxel.
of course the doctor says its wonderful and treats everything including large pores and acne scars.
Isnt it amazing that they make like 50 million lasers instead of just getting together and making one that works as effectively as possible? I would also think that with different lasers that mock another that treatements would get cheaper, but this is never the case. Theres like literally 40 different microdermabrasion units used in the US and all are $100 or something for a treatment.
I think the same thing. I guess this is what we have to put up with to get any lasers at all. I doubt fraxel or pixel would have come out of a communist economy like russia. capitalism can drive innovation, but its a quagmire all its own. maybe the competition of pixel will drive down costs, but watch all the fraxel doctors go buy pixel too just to cover their bases.
well you can definately see the thermal treatment zones in that fuzzy video, they are quite large. but i think the doctor said each dot you see is actually made up of tinier dots which are the actual treatment zones.
I don't even know what to get for my scars anymore, there are too many options and I'm not sure which will work best for me. I have quite a bit of scars and a few lines on my forehead and was considering the Fraxel but I'm not sure anymore. Is the Fraxel really what all the hype makes it out to be?
I don't even know what to get for my scars anymore, there are too many options and I'm not sure which will work best for me. I have quite a bit of scars and a few lines on my forehead and was considering the Fraxel but I'm not sure anymore. Is the Fraxel really what all the hype makes it out to be?
I think different treatments work for different people. I'm trying Fraxel. If this doesn't work, I'm done and I'll take my scars as they are with me to the grave.
I also think the reason we're seeing so many different lasers is due to the aging of the boomers, they badly badly want to correct wrinkles, etc, and there are so many of them that that particular market is huge.
Jim Cramer, the stock market funny guy on CNBC, had a SYRINGE OF SUPPOSED RESTALYNE on his show last week (or maybe it was earlier this week) as a prop while he discussed the company that makes it.
It's a big business.
Don't get me wrong - I am TOTALLY IN FAVOR of the business, because without it, there would not be a Fraxel laser for me to try.
edited to add that I also have scars and forehead lines, I'll be reporting my Fraxel results here.
I looked up the Pixel2940 laser, the same one as in the video, and found a good website:
[Removed]
How it compares to fraxel? If you look at the middle of the page, it says the penetration depth is only 20-50 microns while fraxel penetrates 400-700 microns.
Basically the Pixel2940 is the Erbium Yag laser that shoots in dots, so the healing time is a few days instead of a few weeks.