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1 more this spring. If my doc buys the SR 1500 I will probably buy 4 more for next winter. That should do it, or I may decide to stop after the next. Right now, it is sunny and warm and I like to swim outdoors, so I don't like the associated hibernation from sun.
I hear you on that. I'm trying very hard to balance baseball with fraxel. We'll see how that ends up going...
I'm with you on the fraxel 2, as well. At first I just thought it just helped decrease the prevalence of side effects, but it sounds like (from the webinars) that it is much more efficacious than the 750. Could you not go to another derm for the fraxel 2 or do you want to remain loyal to your current doctor? I bet your feedback would help nudge him in the right direction...
I just viewed the recent webinar with Rahman and Geronemus on Reliant site, which devoted a fair amount of time to scarring treatment and results. Like Zonk said, this would lead you to use the SR 1500, as they repeatedly emphasized the importance of dermal depth for remodeling scars.The pre/post pictures of the hispanic woman showed a fantastic improvement with pretty severe scarring. I'd say 75%. Now, I know they selected their best improvement and maybe there is something else they did with pictures, but it should be encouraging to all.
Lastly, like Toner, I too have become a convert. Intially, I tought fraxel was a bit of an acne scar sham because I was not seeing much, despite being aggressive. Now, however, I am quite happy, despite the slow results. Perhaps the last SR 1500 treatment helped get me over the hump. Shallow rolling scars have responded well, but not scarred pores, so it is not a panacea. And, it takes time and money, but I am glad that I stuck with it.
Billyboy:
I am having a hard time finding the webinar you reference on the Reliant site. Can you provide a link or some direction?
JDM
To clarify:
1. Essentially no improvement on a few scarred pores and 2 failed excision scars
2. 50% improvement on many shallow rolling scars
3. I'd say 25% overall on scars
3. Much improved texture, tone and even pigment; making skin look younger
While 25% may seem low, I really did not see much after 4 treatments. So, I was trying to point out that patience is key, as well as the higher mj settings. Moreover, this is a very safe and easy treatment. I like this low risk, even though the return is slow and not exceptional for me, because I know that some acne scar treatments can make things worse. Except for the incisions, my scars were shallow and several have become unnoticable even close up at a bad angles.
I am hoping for 50% overall, doubt I will get it, but am pretty happy with where I am.
To clarify:1. Essentially no improvement on a few scarred pores and 2 failed excision scars
2. 50% improvement on many shallow rolling scars
3. I'd say 25% overall on scars
3. Much improved texture, tone and even pigment; making skin look younger
While 25% may seem low, I really did not see much after 4 treatments. So, I was trying to point out that patience is key, as well as the higher mj settings. Moreover, this is a very safe and easy treatment. I like this low risk, even though the return is slow and not exceptional for me, because I know that some acne scar treatments can make things worse. Except for the incisions, my scars were shallow and several have become unnoticable even close up at a bad angles.
I am hoping for 50% overall, doubt I will get it, but am pretty happy with where I am.
I just got home from my fourth Fraxel. The RN did 10 passes instead the usual 8, I don't know if I didn't numb long enough or what, but OMG!, was it painful this time! I found out that the PS agreed to give me 2 more treatments for FREE since I'm not happy with the results so far. I haven't seen any improvement yet. So $3000 for 6 treatments comes out to be $500 each and that's a pretty good price! So, I'm excited about that.
I have a question though about the total energy numbers. Some of you are showing much higher total energy than me, this last one was 5.75 and the one before that was 4.71. I'm getting an aggressive treatment so why are the numbers so low? Does it have to do with my skin or is the RN doing something wrong? Billyboy, you have much higher numbers than me, maybe you can shed some light on the subject.
Probably face size is a factor. Are you female? As you might guess, I'm a guy. Also, I went a little below jaw line to even up tan between face and neck.
Well that makes sense, never thought about that. Yes, I'm female. I didn't have her go that far below my jawline because it hurts terrible last time and left a large rectangular "burn" mark on both sides of my neck. It took over a week to go away and was very hard to cover with makeup.
Thanks for your response!
Probably face size is a factor. Are you female? As you might guess, I'm a guy. Also, I went a little below jaw line to even up tan between face and neck.Well that makes sense, never thought about that. Yes, I'm female. I didn't have her go that far below my jawline because it hurts terrible last time and left a large rectangular "burn" mark on both sides of my neck. It took over a week to go away and was very hard to cover with makeup.
Thanks for your response!
Well i been reading all treads, yes!! :wacko: it was difficult to understand everything!! i'm french ( froggy 😉 , i steel don't understand if the best result you see is right after the last sessions , let say 4 or 5 fraxel or the best result come in the next 6 months, i mean how much % is the change between you stop your last session and the news 6 months ?
My docteur say when you stop the 4 sessions it's only 10 % improvement and the 40% will come in the next 6 months . It is right ? i 'm on my 4 fraxels and see a very litte improvent .
I just had my fifth Fraxel today.
I think I am going to stop for a while and give it a time to take
effect. I know I mentioned that I wanted to keep on with the treatments, but I am thinking that my skin needs a chance to heal and that doing too much might prove to be damaging long term. Also, it is getting very expensive. They claim you will keep seeing improvement for months to come.
I go back and forth between with feeling if it was effective or not.
Also, I had the Visia imaging done today. It's funny because I read about it for the first time last night on this very thread and they just purchased it at my doctor's practice two weeks ago. It analyzes your skin quality, texture, pores, spots, wrinkles, and bacteria on your skin, sun damage. That was an eye opener!
I wish they had this before I started my treatments, as I have found that the pics they've taken are not a very reliable indicator of improvement. The lighting is supposed to be consistent, but it seems different sometimes. Also, different personnel take the pictures each time, so that can make a difference in overall objective quality.
The RN said she thought I have had a 50% improvement (I trust this person; she has a lot of integrity and I asked her to give me her opinion if she felt comfortable doing that) but while I see some softening of scarring, I don't think it's 50%. I hope it is, but I don't know. It is so hard to be objective.
Well, I thought I'd share my updates with you.
Annde
CAUTIOSLYOPTIMISTIC, WHERE IN FL DID U GET UR FRAXEL? AND HOW WAS IT? THANKS
I'm having it done by Dr. Bassin in Melbourne Florida. It was very painful because I'm getting aggressive treatments but that is what is recommended for acne scars. It's so painful that I really don't want the two free treatments they are giving me but I know if I stop now I won't get the results I'm hoping for. Plus, he normally charges $1000 a piece and it would be crazy to pass up $2000 in free treatments!
Annde and others, I too had VISIA and the Dr is no longer doing this after discussing my results below with Reliant. For some reason, my scores went down. Sorry for the formatting as I simply pasted from an excel sheet.
Billyboy's Fraxel Results as measured by VISIA computer imaging, Complexion Analysis
Right Side of Face Left Side of Face
Pre FraxelPost FraxelPre FraxelPost FraxelConclusion
Percentile scores for those of same age and sex. High scores are better.
Spots66%54%49%40%Lower scores?
Pores51%30%29%17%Proxy for scarring?
Wrinkles94%94%96%99%Wrinkle free old guy
Texture88%70%60%58%I am surprised
# Skin features detected (lower scores are better)
Porphyrins247189458341nice improvement
UV spots187154211180nice improvement
Notes
Pre Fraxel scans done 3/9/06
Post Fraxel scans done 9/12/06 after 4 Fraxel treatments, the first on 3/9/06, the last on 7/11/06
Pre Fraxel my skin was reddish sunburnt looking, Post Fraxel it is tan like the rest of my skin.
Dr's office is very surprised by negative results and think it might be due to the change in color (i.e., the sunburnt look hid the defects from the first scan)
Pre/post Dr digital photos were not in same light, angle, etc. Also, they were not close enough to detect scarring.
Scarring is not evident in VISIA photos, but overlaid scattergram of pores corresponds to my scarring.
Also, my left side is definitely my worst side, so the relative VISIA scores correspond to what I would expect.
I am very disappointed with my results.
Billyboy, do you really think the girl in the webinar had severe scarring? I thought maybe I missed a patient, i don't know maybe I did however, the girl I saw had, what I thought, was very mild scarring and the after picture showed it to be almost completely gone. All those patients were also treated with the 750 if I'm not mistaken and are on the fraxel website. There was another girl who looked more hispanic than the girl on the webinar who is also on the website who did appear to have more severe scarring, could this be who you might be thinking of, or am I getting this all mixed up?
Hi Billyboy,
How are you?
I am completely surprised by your scan results.
With my scan, I was really feeling down because the UV damage was a lot worse than I thought it would be. I have worn sunscreen every day for over twenty years, religiously. Before I started caring about possible sun damage, I was a normal kid who played outside and a teenager who did do some sun tanning, stupidly, but grew up in Michigan, and it was not year round. From the time I was 22 years old, I have been wearing sunscreen, even on cloudy days. My friends think I am obsessive about it.
So that shocked me. I am wondering if all of these lasers and other things I've done to improve myself could have caused some underlying damage.
I don't understand why your numbers went down. This is a relatively new product. Does your doctor have experience with other people doing the lasers and getting the photo scans? If so, are their results improving?. Do you think that perhaps there could be some damage being done and the doctors just don't know enough about the long-term effects. After all, Visia and Fraxel are both such new technologies.
Sometimes I get suspicious about these types of "marketing" tools. I was wondering if there is a way that the technician could manipulate the results so that it seems you're a lot worse to start and after using their treatments, you show up as having better results. I am wondering if there is some way people who are unethical can manipulate these images. Obviously, that did not happen to you. I can only imagine how frustrating that would be after going through all these treatments. When you look at yourself in the mirror, what are your thoughts on improvements you've received. I am beginning to think that this is the only way to really judge ourselves even though it seems to be so subjective. I think that there aren't enough controls in documenting these results, perhaps the only thing that really matters are the results we see with our own naked eyes.
Annde
i totally freaked out the other day cos i put some old mineral powder make up for the first time on my new scars......i have been traumatised since. As if they weren't bad enough before, now it's a freak show on my head!! Liquid m/up sinks in at least. I'm never wearing mineral powder again. Straight in the bin.Sorry not very fraxel related but enjoying reading as i'm considering this soon.
🙂
I know EXACTLY how you feel. Mineral Makeup is not for scarred skin at all. I was so depressed after trying this stuff as I thought it might be better for my skin but I'm back to my Almay foundation.
Billyboy- glad to hear you are doing so well with your treatments!!
cautiouslyoptimistic- you should have the 2 free treatments!! I could only wish my doctor would offer something like this to me since I don't think I have seen that much improvment. Go for it!!!
Annde and others, I too had VISIA and the Dr is no longer doing this after discussing my results below with Reliant. For some reason, my scores went down. Sorry for the formatting as I simply pasted from an excel sheet.Billyboy's Fraxel Results as measured by VISIA computer imaging, Complexion Analysis
Right Side of Face Left Side of Face
Pre FraxelPost FraxelPre FraxelPost FraxelConclusion
Percentile scores for those of same age and sex. High scores are better.
Spots66%54%49%40%Lower scores?
Pores51%30%29%17%Proxy for scarring?
Wrinkles94%94%96%99%Wrinkle free old guy
Texture88%70%60%58%I am surprised
# Skin features detected (lower scores are better)
Porphyrins247189458341nice improvement
UV spots187154211180nice improvement
Notes
Pre Fraxel scans done 3/9/06
Post Fraxel scans done 9/12/06 after 4 Fraxel treatments, the first on 3/9/06, the last on 7/11/06
Pre Fraxel my skin was reddish sunburnt looking, Post Fraxel it is tan like the rest of my skin.
Dr's office is very surprised by negative results and think it might be due to the change in color (i.e., the sunburnt look hid the defects from the first scan)
Pre/post Dr digital photos were not in same light, angle, etc. Also, they were not close enough to detect scarring.
Scarring is not evident in VISIA photos, but overlaid scattergram of pores corresponds to my scarring.
Also, my left side is definitely my worst side, so the relative VISIA scores correspond to what I would expect.
I am very disappointed with my results.
Billyboy, I'm a little worried after seeing your post Fraxel numbers. I thought my skin looked worse after my first 3 Fraxels, I seemed to have scars where there were none before. I kept trying to tell myself that I was just being obsessive and that there was no way my skin could be getting worse from Fraxel. Now after reading your post I'm really freaked out! Your scores went down significantly! Do you think your skin looks worse? Is it possible that the first scan was incorrect? The fact that your doc stopped doing the Visia after discussing your results with Reliant seems very fishy, like they are trying to hide something. Anyway, now, after having my fourth Fraxel yesterday, I'm in a total panic thinking I may be doing more harm than good!
Annde and others, I too had VISIA and the Dr is no longer doing this after discussing my results below with Reliant. For some reason, my scores went down. Sorry for the formatting as I simply pasted from an excel sheet.Billyboy's Fraxel Results as measured by VISIA computer imaging, Complexion Analysis
Right Side of Face Left Side of Face
Pre FraxelPost FraxelPre FraxelPost FraxelConclusion
Percentile scores for those of same age and sex. High scores are better.
Spots66%54%49%40%Lower scores?
Pores51%30%29%17%Proxy for scarring?
Wrinkles94%94%96%99%Wrinkle free old guy
Texture88%70%60%58%I am surprised
# Skin features detected (lower scores are better)
Porphyrins247189458341nice improvement
UV spots187154211180nice improvement
Notes
Pre Fraxel scans done 3/9/06
Post Fraxel scans done 9/12/06 after 4 Fraxel treatments, the first on 3/9/06, the last on 7/11/06
Pre Fraxel my skin was reddish sunburnt looking, Post Fraxel it is tan like the rest of my skin.
Dr's office is very surprised by negative results and think it might be due to the change in color (i.e., the sunburnt look hid the defects from the first scan)
Pre/post Dr digital photos were not in same light, angle, etc. Also, they were not close enough to detect scarring.
Scarring is not evident in VISIA photos, but overlaid scattergram of pores corresponds to my scarring.
Also, my left side is definitely my worst side, so the relative VISIA scores correspond to what I would expect.
I am very disappointed with my results.
Billyboy,
I had had visia photos too. Unfortunately, the doctor who did my fraxel did not have the machine, but the doctor I was considering going to for an additional set of fraxel did. So I had a 3 month out and a 4 month out picture taken. My numbers improved but only very slightly (they were shockingly low to even begin with, so it's hard to imagine what I was pre-fraxel). \I then started a series of microdermabrasion, and four sessions in, my numbers were back to where they originally started. I've come to the conclusion, though, that VISIA is not the best indicator for scar improvement. Even with the controlled lighting and face positioning, some of my worst scars did not track with the imaging data. Yes, "pores" is a close indicator for scarring, and we all want smaller pores- same could be said for "texture" but some of my icepicks and rollling scars did not even register, while my "good" skin shows pores that I couldn't care less about. I'm interested to hear what you think of the VISIA results, compared to what you see in the mirror.
Sorry to start a fuss about Visia.
Like Chrissy, I came to conclusion that Visia is not good indicator of scarring, although I since learned their web sites identifies spots as a measure of acne scars and freckles, etc. and the scattergram seeemed to identify spots where I had no scars. It is very possible that I had more spotting from sun in Sept than I did in March. I guess they use Visia primarily for those who have microderms. Again, I think it is a poor indicator, but I will also tell you that I had littel fraxel improvement, if any, after my first set of 4. I was devastated when I got these results, as I preceived them to be more objective than my own disappointed eyes.
Also, I thoguht that maybe the miscroscopic fraxel wounds might be identified as pores becasue my pores scores went way down. Who knows?
Someone, asked about hispanic lady's scarring in webinar. I am going from memory but I thought it was severe in quantity with red discoloration, although maybe they were not that deep, but simply looked deeper due to discoloration. I am guessing that it is this type of scarring, high quantity with discoloration, but not especially deep that responds best to fraxel. Anyway, I thought she had a great improvement. I don't think fraxel will work that well on deep scars.
[font="Georgia]I am thinking of trying fraxel 2 and have never tried any lasers, etc. Is it really necessary and why is it necessary to stop retinoids/AHAs prior to treatment? How soon after treatment can you resume?
Also, does any one know if it is okay to use topical vitamin c pre and post treatment? I'd hate to stop Vit. C as it is a cofactor for collegen synthesis, and I would assume it would really be beneficial post-treatment, as the lack of vitamin C could be a limiting reagent for a optimal response.
I have acne scars as well as a few hyperpigmentation areas from sun damage. I have heard that lower settings need to be used for melasma, but what if you have both acne scars and hyperpigmentation? How does that work?
Also, some of my scars are somewhat deep boxcars, what settings should I recommend to my MD? He is new to lasers and just got the machine this year.
hey billyboy I'm sorry to have to ask you this but could you look and see which patient you were refereing to. I don't mean to sound snobish in any way, it is just that, if hers were severe then I must be on a hole different classifcation of scars than everyone else and just would really like to know. On the website, to me, the 1st woman case number 46 appears to be much more severe than case number 50, which was the only lady I saw in the webinar. Again I apologize if this seems rude but it just bothers me and I think for some reason I am getting things mixed up. thanks
Illinoisgirl: I think the reason why you should stop using retinoids/AHA's is because it makes your skin more sensitive, however, if you are using Vitamin C orally that is more than alright in fact you should take a much as you possibly can, but topically might not be as good of idea because it also can make you skin more sensitive. However, if your skin can handle it, go for it, but I started experiencing breakouts after fraxel and i tried differen gel and other topicals which either didn't much or made it worse. The only thing that has helped has been antibiotics and skinpeels.
sorry here's a link
Case # 50 is the one I was referring to in webinar as being severe. But perhaps I am overeacting to quantity and discoloration. The depth does not seem severe.
According to Rahman in webinar, the reason for not using Retinoids is that Reliant research indicates that a heat shock protein is what might stimulate the collagen formation post fraxel and they beleive that retin A will inhibit this response imeediately prior to and after fraxel. So, it is not safety but efficacy, as I understand it.