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Laser does not improve pitted scarring at all. It can help blend the skin and perhaps improve texture minimally. I hate to see people recommending laser. It's a waste of thousands of dollars. The people who have said that laser works for them never have pictures to prove it. I have yet to see good before and after laser pictures from anyone on the message board. If you have pitted scarring do subcision and suction. If you have ice picks do TCA cross. If you want to improve texture, go with dermastamp and TCA peels. It will take a year or two to see significant improvement, but it's the only effective treatments that I've seen.
Ive never seen any slam dunk before and afters with acne scarring, because there is no "cure".
Lasers are proven to boost collagen and smooth out the surface. They are overpriced and over hyped, but they do work.
My own experience is to doubt the effectiveness of lasers as well. I see it as the last port of call rather than the first - not necessarily doing it because all else has failed, but as the finishing touches on the improvements you have made using different methods. As Dan alludes to I see it as more of a superficial treatment despite the downtime and perceived intensity of it all. Yes, there are different types of laser treatment that I don't know the full ins and outs on, but that is nevertheless the impression that I get.
It is easy to think - "oh, I have acne scarring - lasers are the answer". That was my initial, uninformed mentality and as time has gone by I have come to realise that it is not as simple as that. Other treatments might be a lot more effective and at a far cheaper cost I might add.
Saying what you're saying though, Dan34 - I take it you have actually had some success from subcision/suction and TCA peels - and haven't just had a bad or ineffective experience with lasers? Or are you just saying that you've only seen people report improvements (with photographic evidence) for these other types of treatment? I would agree with that, and can only hope that I start to see improvements through one of these methods.
QuanHenry, you appear to be an advocate of lasers and yet you can provide no before and after photos as ammunition - and this is the whole problem. You may genuinely have had a good experience, but generally people seem unable to provide evidence to back up their claims. For example, "here is a picture of me with mild/medium/severe scarring. Here is a picture of me after x amount of laser treatments. Look at the difference!" Of all the treatments out there, lasers is the one that it is most difficult to find success stories on (with evidence) whether it is on this forum or anywhere else on the internet. Yet, it is still regarded as the go-to treatment by most people until they discover that it's not working for them (after spending hundreds and thousands of pounds/dollars)
Not only are positive laser testimonials hard to come by, you actually hear a lot of adverse reactions to the procedure as well. Given that and the cost involved, isn't it better to try other things first and if they don't work re-evaluate your situation? People are often after a quick fix (it's only natural) so the assumption is if you throw loads of money at laser then you will get where you want to be in the shortest amount of time possible. However, I don't believe this to be the case and you might get the results you are looking for over a prolonged period of time by doing repeated needling sessions/peels or whatever.
With regards to subcision, it is one thing to say yes it is a great solution and people can report genuinely good results from it but isn't this massively dependant on the person you are having perform the procedure on you??? How does one decide who to entrust? As encouraging as it is to read several success stories of people having had subcision done (usually coupled with suction)- if you get some cowboy do a job on you then you are in a worse situation than when you started. There are all too many people who have been heartened by people's reviews on subcision that they have it done themselves only to end up regretting it because it didn't go to plan. ie. lumps, bumps etc.
Do you go and see the doctor with the best reputation closest to you or do you even go abroad just for the assurance that you are seeing someone with the upmost respect/expertise? These are the kind of impossible decisions we have to struggle with. You can either regret that you did have something done or that you didn't. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't...
All I will say is the internet and this forum in particular is an invaluable source of information for us in helping to reach these decisions. Acne scarring strikes me as a subject that is not necessarily so much difficult to treat as it is to find people with sufficient knowledge on to advise you what's best. I almost think that some of the members of this forum are more informed that what some doctors are. What I mean by that is the they will practice with a particular type of device/treatment and will know about that and not a lot else. What we all seek is someone with widespread knowledge of all types of acne scarring and all of the possible treatments. A common line is "you will never get rid of your scars, only improve them" but what is to say this is actually trueor just because someone's knowledge doesn't extend that far? I don't understand how if you can improve upon the situation, you then reach a point where you can't go any further. Maybe it is more to do with the fact that one type of treatment can only get you so far, and then it's time to move on to the next one.
What is probably closer to the truth is that there is no one treatment that is the answer, but a multitude used together - not least because there are different types of scars that require different approaches. Problem is, we often have to waste months and years of our lives trying to figure it out for ourselves - whilst going through the mill emotionally.
Lasers? probably not. But check this out. Infini seems to be the only technology that produces worthwhile results, judging from the before and after pics. Of course the skill of the doctor is going to affect the results, but I've never seen any credible, high definition before-and-after's with Fraxel like the one here.
[Edited link out]
I have felt this way for a long time. It's not that lasers don't work, they do to a degree, but they are vastly overhyped and overused for all types of scarring. Lasers are marketed and pushed by doctors as the mainstay of acne scar correction. People believe it because when you look at this $100K machine you rationalize that it must be that expensive because it is super advanced, with some inherent magical technologies. In reality, I think lasers should play a supporting role, not the main role, in acne scar revision. If you have deep, deep scars, no laser in the world is going to cause that indentation to raise up. Here's the problem, when doctors use the lasers they laser the skin uniformly. The skin in the high points and depressions are removed by the same amount. Imagine a plot of land with valleys in it. If you remove the level surface and valleys by the same amount, the depths of the valleys in relation to the surrounding area is the same. Nothing has changed except that now the total surface area has all been lowered by the same amount.
This is why you have to lift deep holes before you use a laser.
On 5/5/2016 at 8:41 PM, EquippedJar said:Lasers? probably not. But check this out. Infini seems to be the only technology that produces worthwhile results, judging from the before and after pics. Of course the skill of the doctor is going to affect the results, but I've never seen any credible, high definition before-and-after's with Fraxel like the one here.
[Edited link out]
Is this the same thing as Intracel or at least something similar? Essentially heated micro-needling? If so, I've heard about this before. Sounds intriguing although I haven't read up enough about it.
On 5/5/2016 at 10:59 PM, blahblah82 said:I have felt this way for a long time. It's not that lasers don't work, they do to a degree, but they are vastly overhyped and overused for all types of scarring. Lasers are marketed and pushed by doctors as the mainstay of acne scar correction. People believe it because when you look at this $100K machine you rationalize that it must be that expensive because it is super advanced, with some inherent magical technologies. In reality, I think lasers should play a supporting role, not the main role, in acne scar revision. If you have deep, deep scars, no laser in the world is going to cause that indentation to raise up. Here's the problem, when doctors use the lasers they laser the skin uniformly. The skin in the high points and depressions are removed by the same amount. Imagine a plot of land with valleys in it. If you remove the level surface and valleys by the same amount, the depths of the valleys in relation to the surrounding area is the same. Nothing has changed except that now the total surface area has all been lowered by the same amount.
This is why you have to lift deep holes before you use a laser.
I agree with you - but why oh why do so many doctors carry out these procedure on patients if they know this to be the case? Or don't they? It's either ignorance or deliberate deception for monetary gain. I don't know which is worse, but both are pretty unacceptable.
It is a shame that a lot of us only come to realise this after we have parted with a lot of cash. I'm not so much annoyed about the amount of money wasted as I am the time - as I could have been trying something else seemingly more worthwhile. It is nevertheless angering to think that a lot of people carry out laser treatments not because they know it to be suitable for an individual but because it is merely a tool that they have at their disposal... and a lucrative one at that.
1 minute ago, Paul B said:Is this the same thing as Intracel or at least something similar? Essentially heated micro-needling? If so, I've heard about this before. Sounds intriguing although I haven't read up enough about it.
Yeah. I've read up a lot about this device, and it seems that Infini is the only device of its sort that precisely does what it's designed to do. There are a few articles on realself comparing Infini to other RF devices. The way I understand it, micro-needling is only little more than a means of heat delivery but I might be wrong. I've only seen great results from this device from only from a handful of doctors. Others just re-use the pictures of said doctors, vaguely implying that they can produce similar results. Common sense tells me to avoid these doctors since they have no results to show for. It's actually shocking how few doctors have pictures of notable improvements.
It seems that the results depend a lot on the skill of the doctor (probably as well as your diet and health) since the device needs to heat very specific areas deep in your skin. I see a lot of people complaining about not getting results from scar reduction procedures, whether they are lasers or dermarolling, when they don't take care of their bodies properly by stopping smoking, eating well, etc. And a lot of them get these frankly dangerous procedures done by people who have show no evidence for their ability. These procedures enable your body to heal itself, but it's your body that's actually doing the healing. DC-Girl seems to have taken this kind of approach, and she got really great results without any fancy, expensive tools.
Im going to be honest and say lasers are the only thing thats improved my skin and IMO docs choose this modality of treatment because it produces the most CONSISTENT results. Ive had peels that have done more damage than good, ive had botched subcision. Yes, lasers are not going to give you the results you want overnight. They need several sessions with graduated aggressiveness. You can take a gamble w cross, needling, and sub... but i feel these treatments are to imprecise. They are hit or miss. Docs dont wanna take that gamble...do you? Just my thoughts. And after all my laser treatments are done i will provide before and after. So far the results in areas treated have been good.
3 hours ago, EquippedJar said:Yeah. I've read up a lot about this device, and it seems that Infini is the only device of its sort that precisely does what it's designed to do. There are a few articles on realself comparing Infini to other RF devices. The way I understand it, micro-needling is only little more than a means of heat delivery but I might be wrong. I've only seen great results from this device from only from a handful of doctors. Others just re-use the pictures of said doctors, vaguely implying that they can produce similar results. Common sense tells me to avoid these doctors since they have no results to show for. It's actually shocking how few doctors have pictures of notable improvements.It seems that the results depend a lot on the skill of the doctor (probably as well as your diet and health) since the device needs to heat very specific areas deep in your skin. I see a lot of people complaining about not getting results from scar reduction procedures, whether they are lasers or dermarolling, when they don't take care of their bodies properly by stopping smoking, eating well, etc. And a lot of them get these frankly dangerous procedures done by people who have show no evidence for their ability. These procedures enable your body to heal itself, but it's your body that's actually doing the healing. DC-Girl seems to have taken this kind of approach, and she got really great results without any fancy, expensive tools.
I will definitely need to pursue researching this once again. Don't know why I didn't beforehand to be honest.Not only some impressive results there but not bad for just 7 months down the line... most/all people would snap your hand off for an outcome like that. Only one study though so I won't get too excited just yet... but that's the kind of thing we want to see more of and not some bullshit before and afters in different lighting or non-photographic rave reviews.
You raise a good point about things like diet and lifestyle. It is something that a lot of people probably don't pay enough or any consideration to. Maybe you don't maximise the potential of any given treatment by not caring for your skin the right way afterwards and the like. Things like diet, topicals, supplements, exercise and refraining from unhealthy habits (ie. alcohol, smoking) probably all have a role to play. It would be handy to know for definite all of the things that you need to do but I guess you can only learn from experience in this respect.
I too have been a follower of DC-Girl's progress myself and am looking to adopt some of her techniques in my own routine. When it comes to the subject of diet though it really is a minefield a there are so many contradictions. What one person will say is good for you another will say the opposite and vice versa. Drives me crazy. Don't know what to do for the best.
PS. I await her response to the post you made in her thread the other day with interest.
Paul B, THANK YOU. You took the words right out of my mouth.
I myself would travel in order to find a good doc. If there is no one near me, I will for sure travel. It's my face. It can't be covered and I think many doctors, like medical doctors in general, don't know what the f they are doing. Would I let an idiot touch my face? No. Are most of them idiots, yes. You need to think of doctors as just any other profession, out there to make money.
I'm very conscious about my health, and maybe acne has something to do with it. I've adopted a strict diet which I don't even find strict anymore. I don't have cravings for bad foods and I know what I eat will affect me. I wish that I could eat certain things, like have cheese, but would I take a clear face over cheese, any day.
Of course nutrition has everything to do with how you heal. People with acne already have compromised health, let alone poor wound healing. If you think about it, the body releases toxins through the skin, but in no way should these toxins lead to scarring. Something is wrong with us and I wish there was a true movement to discover what that is.
You are the only person who truly cares about your health.Maybe there are doctors who are actually awake to the science of nutrition and actually care about helping you, but most of these doctors are brainwashed robots.
It's 2016, and we still haven't found the answer, which I think is ridiculous. I think it all comes down to this: the dermatologist who wanted to prescribe me accutane for normal teenage acne. Thankfully I declined.
DC-Girl had amazing progress and so do many people. I don't believe that scars are permanent and I don't believe that the body is not capable of healing itself. DC girl looks as if she never had acne, and while her scarring isn't as bad as mine, she went from scarring to no scars. I'm sure I would be happy with 50% improvement. That would reverse the clock back a couple of years. And why not from that 50% to 80%? That 80% to 90%? Things are impossible the moment you determine they are.
All these people who have had success became experts in the subject. They took their skin into their own hands.
I'm so glad people are actually responding to this thread. It seems this place is rather dead lately.
Also, without pics, your testimony is worthless. What you think is severe scarring may be mild scarring to me.
The bottom line here is that everyone is different and everyone has a different lifestyle.
Exercise, massaging skin, inversion poses, facial exercise, nutrition, sunlight, all help to make your skin better. So when someone tells me they've done something that worked for them, I want to know everything you do, everything you eat, and how you live.
Moral of the story: if the doctor suggests laser, run.
Another of the great cons about lasers is being sold the line that "we recommend a course of treatments" and "you won't notice results until a few months down the line" as it gives the poor, unsuspecting victim reason to part with their hard-earned cash and proceed not to question the lack of progress between sessions due to the blind faith that some good will become of this later down the line. It's almost like the practitioners are thinking, "well, let's tie them down for x amount of treatments - if they decide they want any more after that then it's a bonus!"
(I do realise that even when laser treatment does have desirable outcome it is not an overnight job but nevertheless the whole concept seems like a conman's dream)
For this reason, I'd be interested to see the incremental differences between each Infini treatment that that girl had. She seemingly went from scars to no scars in 7 months. You can't tell me the results magically appeared sometime after the third treatment.
legit thread i agree with a lot of whats being said. you have to realise that these clinics ONLY care about your money
they dont care about your skin, its true almost all places you consult with will prescribe a series of lasers for thousands of pounds regardless of the skin problem. Also if they have just invested in a new device, they will push for it to be used to pay it off ASAP
its extremely sad becasue we are all so desperate for an improvement and they tap into that and can literally charge whatever they like knowing we will try anything to solve the problem.
i do think however if you have tried everything and it is affecting youre life, you have to gamble and try. you can definately get huge improvements otherwise none of these clinics would exist. Just make sure to go to the best cosmetic dermatologist you can afford
its so hard becasue there is such a fine line between not being invasive enough and not helping your skin condition at all to being too invasive and making it worse/ potentially damaging it further.
42 minutes ago, Dan34 said:What's the bad information?
Are you serious? I dont have time to respond to every dumb comment here. I really hope it doesnt sway somebody away from getting the help they need. It doesnt sound like you have ever tried laser so you really have no ground to stand on.
37 minutes ago, QuanHenry said:Are you serious? I dont have time to respond to every dumb comment here. I really hope it doesnt sway somebody away from getting the help they need. It doesnt sound like you have ever tried laser so you really have no ground to stand on.
I've done four C02 mixto laser treatments, bud. Also had subcision, derminator and TCA performed on my skin.
The only thing that works for pitted scarring it subcision and cross. Dermastamp, peels and laser can help with texture, but not pitted scarring. Nothing I said is false. Prove me wrong with some pictures.
I really hope people considering laser check this out, because they will save thousands of dollars, and learn how to properly treat acne scars by avoiding greedy "dermatologists" that only try and make money off of their insanely priced machine.
29 minutes ago, Dan34 said:I've done four C02 mixto laser treatments, bud. Also had subcision, derminator and TCA performed on my skin.The only thing that works for pitted scarring it subcision and cross. Dermastamp, peels and laser can help with texture, but not pitted scarring. Nothing I said is false. Prove me wrong with some pictures.
I really hope people considering laser check this out, because they will save thousands of dollars, and learn how to properly treat acne scars by avoiding greedy "dermatologists" that only try and make money off of their insanely priced machine.
Pics or didnt happen.
Mr. Matt, DC-Girl, Roberto all have had effective treatments from subcision, needling and TCA. I have yet to see anyone document their success from laser. We can agree to disagree, but lasers are highly overrated and expensive compared to cheaper and more effective techniques.
Yeah, I do. I've only been doing it for six months and I am going to make a comprehensive post hopefully a year from now once my skin is close to 100%. I agree subcision is great on tethered scars, and cross, peels, dermastamp and lasers can help on shallow, untethered scars. It takes several different things, not just one technique.
Thats what the advocates of lasers have been saying about posting pictures.
I think we all agree lasers have been over hyped by doctors, but to say they dont work just isnt true. Before my laser treatments last year my face looked like a golf ball from a mile away. Today it is smooth and even, the scars changed shape, shrunk and filled in a bit. In harsh lighting though they are still quite obvious and I suspect there is nothing I can do to pop them all the way up. I had a virtual consult with Dr. Yang of NYC last week, and he told me that he thinks subcision wouldnt do much for me because I mostly have untethered boxcar scars.
I would give subcision and suction a whirl if your scars cast shadows in harsh lighting, but yeah if they're not tethered it may not do you any good. Hey, if laser works for you then keep at it, but from my experience and a lot of people on the message board it has been very disappointing after spending lots of money. If I could go back in time I would use it as a last resort after trying subcision, needling, cross and peels, but to each his own.