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Case Study: 95% Improvement With Infini— Is this real?

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As a long-time acne scar sufferer, I am always skeptical about many of the claims. Regardless, I came across this case study by a doctor who treated a patient with the Infini, and the results are very impressive.

http://www.usa.lutronic.com/pdf/CaseStudy_AcneScars_Ibrahimi_ConnecticutSkinInstitute.pdf

The before and after pictures are only around 9 months apart, and the patient only had three treatments. I'd agree with the study in saying the improvements are over 95%. A few questions and thoughts.

1. Lighting and angles are very important when it comes to seeing the true depths of scars, and the before and after pictures look to be similar. Am I missing something there? 

2. I read there is barely any downtime for the Infini. How is that possible for something giving such great results? Doesn't the skin need an aggressive approach to force it to rebuild?

3. If these results are real, are they typical?

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First of all the study is sponsored by the company who makes the product. Regardless of lighting and angles.

Secondly NO treatment gives 95% improvement. There would be a very narrow percentage of acne scar suffers who even have the right type of scars to improve this much. IF your tethered, or fat deficient forget about it, it does not make fat appear. If you have ice pics those go down to the bone. So it would be a very superficial type of acne. 

What laser do you know that gives 95% improvement, ... None! You would have to have such minor scars it would be the equivalent to a light acid peel. 

These studies and doctors do not tell you they often use multiple other treatments to get these results including filler, or acid peels, skincare and makeup, etc...

That is BS that there is no down time from Infini. I have done 3 and have down time for up to a month. They even tell you to wear makeup. Read realself, most of the reviews complain that their is sometimes 3 months of healing or scabs, when they were sold this low down time line, which is a complete lie. One guy posted recently and was upset over his Infini treatment, you get much worse before you get better,   it can take 3-6 months to build up some collagen. Until then it look like fat loss. Have you had a hard CO2 treatment, healing time is long. 

I know Dr. Lim uses the procedure instead of laser or sometimes with it (he also uses filler, subcision, and other treatments to obtain results, but this is rarely said). Look at this posting. Acne scars are not a one size fits all procedure. Often these treatments have down time and get worse before they get better. As acne scar suffers we often have auto immune like disease, we heal poorly, or we would not have scars to begin with. So some people get worse from energy device treatments, this is why we suggest starting with filler and subcision or TCA Cross. 
 

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/364723-did-infini-destroy-my-skin/


 

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** Please "Like" my response above; Capturedwdn.JPG  As a volunteer encouragement helps! |::wiggle:
[Thank You For Your Kind Understanding - I reply to individual Private Messages addressing your concerns as soon as I can, helping many people a day, please be patient.]

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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I'd like a professional to be able to address the widely expressed claim that acne scar sufferers have bad healing capabilities? I, for one, hardly ever get sick and have never broken a bone, although do I strain muscles often but this is momentary. The only scars on my body are found only on my face, nowhere else.. and those have improved quite a bit through treatments and time. No matter how harshly I pick or squeeze scabs or those rare pimples on my leg or chest -- they never scar. So to say that we have bad healing capabilities it highly subjective, especially if you, yourself notice that your auto-immune system sucks.. And the whole Accutane resulting in poor healing hasn't been thoroughly researched and I believe, has been debunked. An old case study, I believe was the sole premise to the fear-mongering, highly perpetuated, shenanigans regarding accutane we see today.

@Topic

The results are probable. I would look into subcision, tca cross and microneedling first... before venturing into lasers, however.

Edited by Robertitoo
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If you have pitted scarring look into Subcision-Suction as well as microneeding. Check out my success


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On 12/26/2016 at 7:09 PM, beautifulambition said:

As acne scar suffers we often have auto immune like disease, we heal poorly, or we would not have scars to begin with.
 


You are mixing causation - correlation.

Scars are not the indicators of our autoimmune-like disease - The acne that caused the scars is, and the scars are just the byproduct. Years of suffering (example for the sake of this argument) very severe acne-congolbata would leave anybody scarred, regardless of how fortified their immune system is (this is a paradox anyway, nobody with a fortified immune system would suffer such acne in the first place)


  Edited by ChildhoodDreams
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This was my point. This seems like semantics. We are on a site called Acne.org after all so this is the basis of all treatment. The sub forum we are in is for scars. If you healed poorly yes probably that was from acne, could be from picking, or it could be from bacteria (ie. Staph, P. Acnes, ect...). The point is I think most acne suffers have a greater knowledge to their healing capabilities and history of the fight if you will. So I think it's trivial to say scars are not indicators of auto immune like disease, ... after one has many diseases there are indicators it was there and of their bodies process of healing from it. IF I know through many white papers and data that lasers have side effects of tissue loss and poor healing, yet I let a doctor sell me they are magical or I take a chance at the poker table, then I may have serious side effects. If you have read my FAQ which is below each of my posts, I approve with sounds data what causes scars and acne. I have even had doctors and scientists contribute to it. 

Back to the original topic, as this has veered into theoreticals. Lets be realistic with our expectations. No laser can provide 95% improvement, so how can Infini (it's fractional skin desiccation (death) kind of like a laser but protects the epidermis)? It relies on your bodies ability to heal itself. This is marketing 101 in aesthetics, make high numbers, and pay for data that proves it's the next best thing. Prove that it can work for all people and all things. Pay doctors gobs of money to sell, sell, sell for non FDA approved conditions (This sounds like the pharmaceutical industry). Can the Infini improve you, yes it can. Does it have side effects including fat loss and poor healing in those pre - disposed to such things, of course "acne scar suffers" have this side effect often. After 3 treatments, and having seen hundreds of other of these treatments, ... you will not get 95% improvement, unless your acne is so superficial, a simple acid peel would correct everything. Especially with fat deficiency. Lets be realistic and not buy the fake news which is so popular recently. 

To Robertitoo valid points, what does scabs and other places on the body have to do with acne or acne scaring. I have terrible acne scaring and can get a scab or wound and heal perfectly. It has to do with bacteria, mainly as a recent UCLA white paper reports (What causes acne)... Those with acne scars can be predisposed to acne because they do not have the valid immune process to handle the bacteria. They did biopsies and bacteria cultures in thousands of bacteria patients and found those who had acne unless it was brought on by a drug side effect, or hormonal shift; their bodies did not produce the enzymes to fight the bacteria for for them to heal correctly "from acne." ""Some"" causes of acne scaring are considered auto immune deficiency related. Has anyone looked up the disease recently on Wikipedia. Conditions associated with the disease acne, cysts, rashes, poor healing, rosacea, eczema, scarring, blood deficiencies, poor skin tone and enlarged pores, susceptibility to other bacteria infections. For instance Celiac disease is related to Auto Immune and to leaky gut, but most doctors are not trained for naturopathic and functional medicine so they just treat the symptoms not the cause with antibiotics. This can give some relief but for others it comes back after the medication is stopped. You can have auto immune thus on certain parts of your health and have no effect on others. We have a section on this site about nutrition and many with acne suffer from Gluten intolerance. "Some" doctors have stopped Accutane because of the history of side effects from the drug, they are now using PDT (blue led 400-450nm or lasers w/ ALA) to fight acne (kills bacteria and shrinks pores) avoiding the drug and its unknown outcomes on the skin.

Basically it all comes down to bacteria and how the body handles it. After helping thousands on here, poor healing is the number one complaint of these treatments and their ability to heal. This is why as Robertitoo said we rely on methods which cause less trauma and side effects like subcision, tca peels, filler, microneedle, creams, and led light first before we take a chance with energy devices.

Remember ChildhoodDreams the posting your made after I posted on how effective are lasers by a aesthetics doctor round table. So how can the infini possibly be better than lasers, when it uses the same technique.

The real story on acne scars
Here's the deal with acne scars: no laser is really going to do all that much for them. Sorry, but acne scars are very difficult to treat and you are never going to go back to where you want with any laser alone. Even with the best of treatments, you are going to have about 50% improvement and that is with fillers such as restylane and perlane, which will be doing the heavy lifting.

Prior to having Fraxel, Cool Touch, Fraxel Re:pair and every other laser that has promised to improve acne scars but didn't, I performed full face CO2 lasers on patients with acne scars. The results were not all that impressive, despite the fact that patients went through 2 weeks of sheer torture during the recovery phase. That, on top of the price in the $4000 range that made it *seem* like something ought to have happened. Due to this fact, I stopped doing the older, CO2 laser and haven't missed it one bit.

Now, unfortunately, we have a whole new generation of doctors and quasi cosmetic surgeons (family practitioners, nurse practitioners, Ob Gyns, etc) who have now purchased these lasers for their medispas and are trying to generate some cash, along with laser companies that are desperate to sell their machines. So, the old concept of treating acne scars with a laser such as Fraxel is once again being trotted out and desperate patients are being duped once more.

The truth is that it does precious little for acne scars and typically not enough to make someone spend the money and recovery time to do the treatment. What I tell patients is that if the money is something that you care about and it is anywhere near a stretch to do the procedure, you don't want to do it for acne scars. Wrinkles are a whole different situation because it does work for these. Acne scars not so much. And the recovery time, if the scars are done correctly with it, is going to be about a week or two along with major downtime and oozing. So, think twice before doing this procedure, despite what the laser companies and many doctors are telling you! -- Joel Schlessinger, MD 

 

What concerns me is your use of the word "disappear".  No one should ever tell you that any procedure, no matter how many you do, will cause your scars to "disappear".

The problem with acne scars is that no matter what you do they will never be 100% gone.  You could do 20 Fraxel treatments and your scars wouldn't be 100% gone.  It's true that the more treatments you do, the better the results but there is a law of diminishing returns and for acne scars it's more a logarithmic curve--at some point, you do not get back as much as you put in and eventually the results just level out and don't keep getting significantly better.  The reason is that acne scars are holes or defects in the skin--the laser cannot remove the hole, the best it can do is to soften the shoulders of the hole so the drop-off isn't so apparent.  That's why fillers often work better than lasers on deep crater scars because they plump up the depression but it's very difficult to treat every scar on the face with fillers.  It's also very cost prohibitive to use temporary fillers because they have to constantly be redone to maintain the results.  A permanent filler such as Artefill might be appropriate for certain deep depressions or crater scars.  However, acne scarring has 4 types:  ice-pick, box car, rolling, and hypertrophic.  Each type of scar has to be addressed in a different way.  In addition, most people are more bothered by the discolorations than the actual depressions themselves.  -- M. Christine Lee, MD 

Acne scars cannot be eliminated by any means. They can only be improved, regardless of the type of treatment. This discussion should take place with any consultation of acne scars. The improvement of acne scars can be qualitative and quantitative but is never predictable.  --Raffy Karamanoukian, MD, FACS 




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbNOH2Q2pGA

Quote: 

 

Hearing those doctors drop those truth-bombs is soul crushing.

"Your scars will never be 100% gone"

"No laser will do anything for them"

"Even with the best treatments you are going to have 50% improvement with fillers doing the heavy lifting"
 

 
 

** Please "Like" my response above; Capturedwdn.JPG  As a volunteer encouragement helps! |::wiggle:
[Thank You For Your Kind Understanding - I reply to individual Private Messages addressing your concerns as soon as I can, helping many people a day, please be patient.]

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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I had Infini treatment 2 times and I can say I saw some improvement but far way from significant. I saw some improvement in overall skin conditions but Infini didn't lift up my rolling acne scars. However, be very careful in choosing a doctor because Infini can leave you with new scars from the RF needles. Unfortunately, that happened to me but it is not that much visible and I hope it will disappear by time. Most doctors on realself.com are claiming that Infini in combination with PRP is the best treatment for acne scars currently available. I still have to try this combined treatment.

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A few comments-

1.This highlights the importance of high treatment levels, Note the treatment level of 12 in the first pass. PD is 1/3 the max. I know the company now puts out that longer pd with lower treatment levels (once again due to carbon build up, possibly due to fear of side effects like double or pulse stacking in deeper settings- fat atrophy)

2. This was rated by the patient, as 95% improvement, which, in a good way is considered a better subjective viewpoint. 
Not a scientific objective improvement. Not a blinded case, not a series of controlled cases. 

3. Doctors tend to post the best results, not the usual and certainly never the non responders. This maybe 100% legit, but it is the exception not the rule. If you follow post on real self.com by patients on Inifini, results like these are considered as 'unexpected' as one patient describes. Dr Lim performed 2 treatments on one patient purely with INFINI and PRP and got unexpected results- he was so surprised he told- warned the patient that this is pure luck, and not expected. Her own post are on that website. Some of Lim's before and after posts there as well and his comment was 'not expected'. 

4.Time line. This is important, as anyone has had Infini or even fractional devices, oedema or swelling is seen after the treatment. Now in the 3 rd treatment, good doctors wait 2-3 weeks before taking the photo, Ideally should be 3-4 months. I quickly read the article, when was the 3 rd session performed, and when was the final picture taken? 

INFINI is good, it is still not the answer to all acne scars, it has a weak solenoid, and carbon build up with higher levels, a scar is still a scar, and multiple modalities are needed in individual cases. This case only highlights that in this person, Infini worked well and the patient subjectively rated her scars as 95% better after 3 sessions. 

 

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No, I do not, but will know the answer in a few weeks time. Vivace RF is gaining popularity, their price point is great. Consumables much less then both Infini and also Intensif. As it stands, Infini is still the most powerful, not perfect, because if they concerted more on development, it would be close to 'as best as it can get till newer tech takes over'. Problem is that they spend money on marketing. (Like Syneron Candela and even Lumenis with Ultrapulse - great power, but sequential delivery since it was first invented over a decade ago. Ultra pulse since 1994 has evolved slowly.) Other companies like EndyMed is playing the 'deeper is better' with their 5 mm non insulated needles (redundant and dangerous IMO) because the PD is limited to 200 ms, other companies like Secret reverse engineering Infini, with insulation BUT better solenoid, but as for power (watts) and PD (pulse duration), I don't have the inside info. All I know is that this microneedling industry is a marketing game. Sure, there are game changes like Infini but it is not the be all to end all device. Far from it..... its just sits in the top 5% of the many RF microneedling devices out there. Its just another tool to get a job done, not a perfect tool, just another instrument... until another better one comes along. 

Like character Obi Wan, I have seen the days of full on dermabrasion using wire fraise and motors, phenol peels, ... I have seen the evolution of CO2 'Silk touch ' in the 90s, the days or erbium, I have seen the evolution of Rox Anderson's Fractional lasers, with the Smurf Blue Fraxels, to todays Hybrid lasers, and the evolution of picosecond lasers, and energy based RF microneedling. I was there when Bovine injections were done, silicone injections were performed and allergy testing was conducted prior to fillers. I was reading the paper on all forms of subscision from the original reports by two dermatologist in the 90s. right through to the current Nokor filler - PRP techniques, and the current work on ReCell, fibroblast harvesting, Tulips, and stems... and the future really does look bright. So many ways to improve scars that were once 'impossible' to treat. My glass is half full, and getting fuller, as medicine, science and pioneers around the World collaborate to provide better improvement to people with scars. On the flip side, people must understand that we are not there yet, but look at where we were 20 years ago?  It a huge step in the right direction. I have met people in the 60s reversing scars they have had for 4 decades, and yes, the future is good. With each passing year, scar treatments WILL improve... but so will the marketing side of things. Guys like BA dedicate their time to cut thought the marketing BS and advice patients on the best METHOD for their scars. I have not talked to him, nor met him, but my respect goes out to him for helping others. His knowledge is vast, and his experience is first hand. So acne.org should be thankful for a guy like him. Sorry.. a little off topic, but that my take on the industry.  Getting old. Going to bed at 1930 and had one too may whiskeys. 

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I don't think so it will work because actually it was sponsored by a company and people will actually do these kind of strategies  in order to get more no of customers towards their side. You can see immediate results too by using a product it will take some time to showcase results. Also you cant trust any products blindly before considering a product first thing we have to do is check out the products relevance and reach among the customers.

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@Obi wan
 

Thanks man, please let us know when you get more info on infini vs vivace as far as solenoid is concerned and other things that matters.

I know Infini came out with Gen 1.2 which basically is a new user interface where the low power long PD settings are coded. Also they came up with a new needle tip which is suppose to be less lossy.

 

Also, there is another device called intracel rf which is pretty much the first rf microneedling device with insulated needles. Canada and Europe has it since 2010. Got FDA approved last year. Needles only go up to 2 mm.

Regarding this case study, 

I have met Dr Omar Ibrahmi in person. His office is in Stamford near NYC. When I asked him about those pics, he didn’t gave me a satisfactory response. All he said is everybody is different and expect about 50% improvement after 3 treatments. $1000 per treatment. He is a laser specialist. Doesn’t do subcision, CROSS etc.

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@keving100 @obiwan I have treated my scars both with infini and vivace. Infini takes long time to heal, causes track like marks, acne break outs and fat atrophy. Vivace is not that harsh on the skin and the healing time is around like a month.  Infini requires like 3-4 sessions whereas Vivace requires like 6 sessions to see results.  Vivace price per session is cheaper like 500-750. Also some doctors are using amniotic fluid instead of PRP to get better scar results. 

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@Binga, thanks for sharing your experience, ... Infini is so variable in its delivery. Namely if one dials a low setting (1-20), and a short PD, say 200 ms, and depth of 3-3.5 mm, healing esp. with PRP is within 3 days. Now, this device (like any other is operator dependant). Scenario. If good operator pulses the shots without pulse stacking, and ensures the depth of delivery is achieve with each shot (not, excuse the pun, with out in-appropraiate withdrawal), and checks on insulation, - it is vvvv predictable. Early withdrawal of the needles defies the intent of insulation and hence the grid like healing.... Hz has to be timed accurately by the specialist to give the best, but also the safest results.  INFINI can be delivered with an exact and predictable outcome, but one has to be very experienced in this device. I have no doubt regarding INFINI and fat atrophy... think level 20, PD of 700. 3.5 mm deep, and pulsing 4 times... wow.. that would vaporise fat and adiposites. Re atrophy-  totally agree. Carbon build up would occur within 30 shots, but shiver to think of the side effects (same goes for HIFU). 

Viviace like you said is less harsh, as the max parameters are built in ... same with Instensif (200/200 max). PRP and amniotic fluid yet to show scar improvement with blinded split face studies. However split face PRP recover times are pretty much known by most 'experts' in the industry. Hoping for an honest video or paper.... my 2 cents worth. 

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Just digging through all my Lutronic files, and like to share with all of you what can happen to even good devices and experts (this case was performed by a well known Asian dermatologist). The device - INFINI - Lutronic. Well within industry standards for acceptable limits (but treatment level and pulse duration on the high side, but still within the 'safety zone').

Another expert dermatologist who uses Infini were sent these files to comment. His comment was probable carbon build up with failure of insulation. Lesson- steep learning curve, even for Specialists. Infini is powerful, its not foolproof, nor 100% safe. To date it still stands as one of the best 'energy devices' but it has 3 major flaws 1. Carbon build up with higher levels 2. Weak Solenoid. Hence can not penetrate fibrotic scars- spring back kick 3. Extremely versatile means high power, - this is like I mentioned a double edge sword. Great for changing the parameters, but an absolute disaster if things go wrong. 
This is the worse place to get an adverse event, as hypertrophic scars can result. Luckily patient is in good hands with the dermatologist who performed this, as CS injections, silicone, Vascular laser can all help, along with absolute wound care. Over the next few months I will share with you what can go wrong with energy devices, not to scare everyone but to educate the need to respect lasers, RF and anything 'new' on the market....and choose your Specialist carefully. Like I said, this case was no fault of the dermatologist, as this person is a well respected in Asia, its a failure of the safety systems that should be built into such a powerful device.  I hope this clarifies the power of this device and the respect that it commands. 

IMG_0019.JPG

IMG_0243.JPG

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Thank YOU @Obi wan love to  see/read more on this ... "Over the next few months I will share with you what can go wrong with energy devices." Just a idea .. wouldn't a solution be a dye or coloring which shows wear of the coating or are doctors just going to need to change more tips per patient. What were the approx needle length (Settings), if he would have gone full blast w/ deep settings ie. 3mm to avoid PIH  on this patient type he could have done deeper damage. He looks like he was sedated can you imagine waking up to that !


 ...General: 
This is why I tell everyone here, do not push your doctor to do high setting on these devices, you can get hurt. It is about the specialist as Obi Wan said above not the "machine." It's about your individual scars not some magic from a device. The dude has skin down to the deep dermis / (sub-q) fat issues.

The pulse rate basically spread (no insulation / carbon) killing/burning needle chunks of tissue. Looks like someone did some electrosurgery / hyfecator and went to town.

We don't go for the longest settings and the highest needle lengths. These are powerful devices not toys. Just like TCA, less is more. I dare say this device (RF Microneedle) is more tricky. It requires a grasp of settings, and what they do, anatomy and it's effects, and how to treat issues. IT's not set it and forget it (i've seen Drs do the same settings for everyone - crazy) or the ease of a Fraxel. The skin must be palpitated (felt) for structures or issues and a history considered. I have seen patients who had issues from doing all sorts of treatments with various doctors at the same time and not communicating as well, ... then catastrophe. If you just had your filler dissolved or had a intense laser session, medications,... you can do all sorts of things inside the skin. I have seen silicone injections do this type of thing as well. The carbon build up is a issue, I wonder what they will do to combat this, new nano coatings or something or a different way to cool / protect the needles. 


CC: @Quadboy  @Sirius Lee


** Please "Like" my response above; Capturedwdn.JPG  As a volunteer encouragement helps! |::wiggle:
[Thank You For Your Kind Understanding - I reply to individual Private Messages addressing your concerns as soon as I can, helping many people a day, please be patient.]

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 :smileys_n_people_116: CLICKABLE LINK: OFFICIAL ACNE SCAR SOLUTIONS; Q&A / FAQ :smileys_n_people_108:
TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. SUCCESSFUL TREATMENT THREADS                                                                 7. HYPERTROPHIC / KELOID (RAISED SCARS)
2. WHAT IS ACNE & PREVENTING SCARS                                                              8. SUBCISION
3. DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCARRING                                                                      
9. FILLER FOR SCARS
4. TREATING SCARS AT HOME                                                                              10. LASER
5. SKIN: RED (PIE) BROWN (PIH), WHITE MARKS,                                               11. MICRONEEDLING
     TEXTURE, LARGE PORES,  DRYNESS, & COVERING UP SCARS                    12. TCA CROSS FOR ICEPICK SCARS & ACID PEELS                       
6. PUNCH GRAFTING & EXCISION                                                                        13.
LIST OF ACNE SCAR TREATMENT DOCTORS

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I was just reading some horror stories on realself about Infini. This tool ain't no joke, be careful no matter what treatment you use
 

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There have been more reports about dissatisfied patients who felt they didn't get enough improvement than those who ended up with some unmentionable disaster.
If you really don't mind getting only meagre 5% improvement from all your treatments because you prefer safety over result, by all means stick to conservative treatments, provided you have a very large bankroll. But you should also note that you will never be completely freed of scars at the rate of 5% improvement. 
 


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On 13-10-2017 at 6:34 AM, Binga said:
@keving100 @obiwan I have treated my scars both with infini and vivace. Infini takes long time to heal, causes track like marks, acne break outs and fat atrophy. Vivace is not that harsh on the skin and the healing time is around like a month.  Infini requires like 3-4 sessions whereas Vivace requires like 6 sessions to see results.  Vivace price per session is cheaper like 500-750. Also some doctors are using amniotic fluid instead of PRP to get better scar results. 
Which device produces better results for you?

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1 hour ago, Noa27 said:
On 10/13/2017 at 0:34 AM, Binga said:
@keving100 @obiwan I have treated my scars both with infini and vivace. Infini takes long time to heal, causes track like marks, acne break outs and fat atrophy. Vivace is not that harsh on the skin and the healing time is around like a month.  Infini requires like 3-4 sessions whereas Vivace requires like 6 sessions to see results.  Vivace price per session is cheaper like 500-750. Also some doctors are using amniotic fluid instead of PRP to get better scar results. 
Which device produces better results for you?

Infini I think but it took me long time to heal and caused fat atrophy. Vivace produces the same result but requires 6 sessions instead of 3-4 with Infini. The negligible downtime with vivace is worth it I think. 

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That pic looks scary. From what I have seen Infini uses a manual pedal to delivery energy and when there is carbon buildup the needles kind of gets stuck when inside the skin. Vivace is  fully automatic and don't have any issues with carbon buildup. 

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No, Infini is either hand delivered or pedal. Carbon build up is relative to energy, and PD. Yes, every single device has its pros and cons, and INFINI is no exception. 'With power comes responsibility'. Healing from Infini- can be dialled in from 1-2 days all the way to 7 days, depending on settings. It is just a device, that delivers high power insulted RF .....and can be useful in the correct setting. As for fat atrophy, absolutely- if one does not know the power or how to deliver the shots. Will one get fat atrophy on Infini- yes! Just dial in a 3.5 mm setting PD, of say 750 ms, Level 20 ( Maximum watts), then fire 3 shots. 49 needles into the fat and the rest is history. Some say it can work to ones advantage (jowls in older patient), however in patients with vvv low fat, pulse stacking can be less than ideal for scars. Once again, fat atrophy is the end point, but the Specialist is the rate limiting factor. ( Can a 300 Win Mag hit a steel plate at 1000 yards, yes, in the correct hands, can a 308, same as well.) 

Just a teaser for things that can go wrong with treatments. Wait till you see the TCA CROSS DIY photo- sad story, this guy committed suicide a few years ago. Seen a well known dermatologist who performed TCA CROSS, did 2 sessions, his photos are on realself.com somewhere, he got great results for a type 5 skin. Thought it was easy, bought 100% TCA  from eBay and asked his brother to perform it on himself. Multicoat the entire cheek. Ended up in burns unit in Australia, no one could get a history from him, he did not tell anyone what happened. The dermatologist was the go to guy, and pictures were sent to him for advice on what caused it. Dermo knew exactly what went wrong. Tried to help with burns team and plastics for skin grafts, then nUVB for repigmentation. This patient went into depression, took his own life. Really unfortunate story, his dermatologist still reflects upon this every week..... unfortunate cases like this hurts everyone from the patient, to the family, and the specialist involved in his care. In response to Vivace , yes, I know the device well. Pushed heavily in Asia over 4 years ago, now the KOL in Australia is Dr Phillip Bekhor, at Laser Dermatology. He gets his advice and parameters from his colleagues and other dermatologist that have used energy based microneedling for years. No doubt it works, is it better than Instensif, or Infini, no...why?  Because the watts and insulation is limited, if someone has an Infini, if in doubt, turn the wattage down, use a short PD, and don't rush treatments, place the Hz to 1 not 4, and ensure no carbon build up. Still stick to the 80% specialist, 20% device. @BA has it wrapped up- its not a set and forget 'Fraxel' device. It's a thinking device. Will Vivace in Dr Bekhor's hands deliver better results than a cosmetic GP with INFINI RF? I will bet my left testicle on that! Ok, maybe not... but it probably will. More 'when things go wrong photos to come'. 

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On 2016-12-27 at 4:09 AM, beautifulambition said:

First of all the study is sponsored by the company who makes the product. Regardless of lighting and angles.

Secondly NO treatment gives 95% improvement. There would be a very narrow percentage of acne scar suffers who even have the right type of scars to improve this much. IF your tethered, or fat deficient forget about it, it does not make fat appear. If you have ice pics those go down to the bone. So it would be a very superficial type of acne. 

What laser do you know that gives 95% improvement, ... None! You would have to have such minor scars it would be the equivalent to a light acid peel. 

These studies and doctors do not tell you they often use multiple other treatments to get these results including filler, or acid peels, skincare and makeup, etc...

That is BS that there is no down time from Infini. I have done 3 and have down time for up to a month. They even tell you to wear makeup. Read realself, most of the reviews complain that their is sometimes 3 months of healing or scabs, when they were sold this low down time line, which is a complete lie. One guy posted recently and was upset over his Infini treatment, you get much worse before you get better,   it can take 3-6 months to build up some collagen. Until then it look like fat loss. Have you had a hard CO2 treatment, healing time is long. 

I know Dr. Lim uses the procedure instead of laser or sometimes with it (he also uses filler, subcision, and other treatments to obtain results, but this is rarely said). Look at this posting. Acne scars are not a one size fits all procedure. Often these treatments have down time and get worse before they get better. As acne scar suffers we often have auto immune like disease, we heal poorly, or we would not have scars to begin with. So some people get worse from energy device treatments, this is why we suggest starting with filler and subcision or TCA Cross. 
 

http://www.acne.org/messageboard/topic/364723-did-infini-destroy-my-skin/


Surely you can improve scars for more than 95 percent. If you find a great specialist and pay hell of a lot of money and spend alot alot of your time. Money= Beauty

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Several Drs and scar specialists use Intensif RF from endyMed system in patients when there are 'tough' fibrotic scars, when Infini's spring is not powerful enough to get thought, see several comments on realself, also he uses the very powerful Ultrapulse laser from Lumenis in low density - essentially an over powered CO2 laser for burns. Only in select cases apparently when he needs to get down deep. I don't thing there is 'one' devices for all types of acne scars. Each device has its pros and cons. Intesif has a good motor but vvvvv weak and even though non-insulated consumables are twice as expensive as Infini insulated tips (which are not perfect either). Co2 less than ideal, as heat or energy has got to go through the upper epidermis, upper dermis, before it even gets to the scars in the lower dermis- hence collateral damage all the way. The flip side is that in some patients no other device can go this deep - Lumenis proven to go nearly 1/2 cm into the skin. Does everyone need this ? Absolutely not, but Specialist tend to get a biased of patients, ie. they have tried almost everything, and the scars that remain are the hardest scars to treat (easy one were already taken care of by other procedures). Correct application in the appropriate setting is the key to safety and to success. 

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42 minutes ago, Obi wan said:

Lumenis proven to go nearly 1/2 cm into the skin. Does everyone need this ? Absolutely not, but Specialist tend to get a biased of patients, ie. they have tried almost everything, and the scars that remain are the hardest scars to treat...


You can now get subcision with radiofrequency now. No more dicking around with useless lasers. Don't know if it's available in the US or in Europe. Definitely in Korea.

 

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