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Freaky

Soaping and human disease

What was Lister thinking when he discovered sanitization? Did he not realize it was the downfall of modern civilization to kill and remove harmful pathogens by washing???

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Anyway, I don't know if it is true or not, but I think it is an original idea. And I like it.

And I think our skin is not prepared for daily soaping. An the emphasis on the DAILY use of soap. HUMAN SKIN IS NOT DESIGNED for daily soaping.

This would explain for example some of the causes of acne

1/ overproduction of sebum (after soaping the skin will dry out and this probably triggers lipid production in sebaceous glands)

2/ blockage of the follicules with solid sebum and dead cells (soap could get into your pores and does change sebum consistency at the superficial layer, which after drying out became more solid blocking the pores)

3/ the hormone theory... this is what we know very little about. But I think the overproduction of sebum cannot cause a problem alone, it only makes your skin oily! The main cause is the blockage of the pores!

In medicine, the real prblem usually is that people accept dogmas, like what you said. Soaping is good for reducing the number of pathogenic bacteria. Yes. But what if my skin need more of its own lipids???

Look, almost all researchers and medical "professionals" read the same books. An they learned it. GONGRATULATIONS!

And THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU ACCEPT EVERYTHING WHAT IS WRITTEN IN TEXTBOOKS. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!

Bryan.....help me please!!!!!

First of all the sebaceous glands do not produce sebum in response to surface dryness. That article (not a study, an article written by a Veternarian)......states that dryness or removal of surface lipids is a cause of increased sebum production......since this was written in 1983, the writer of the article must have at some point come across the original Kligman and Shelley study that debunked the "feedback theory". I don't accept everyting I read in fashion magazines as fundamental truth's either.........those damn beauty editors haven't caught on yet......and that Kilgman Shelley study is almost 50 years old........ :rolleyes:

The writer doesn't go on to explain exactly how soaping causes increased lipid plasma levels in soapers versus non -sopaers, only that the incidence of high lipid plasma levels is more frequent in soapers, like He went on to say that even though people like Eskimos eat the same amount of fats and lipids us soapers have higher lipid plama levels in our blood and are prone to arteriosclerosis, hypertension and cardiac myopathies. He did not mention they types of fats eaten by each culture and how that may infulence the lipid plasma levels.........he actually went on to say soaping of the skin may cause arteriosclerosis. this was in 1983, when trans fats were all the rage in the food industry......a cheap way to make synthetic fats with high smoke points.....that in no way could be the culprit of this arteriosclerosis problem.....nope it must be that damn soap...........

I do not really condone the use of soap on skin. I prefer those toxic synthetic detergents like sodium layryl sulfate and cocamidopropyl betaine. A properly formulated cleanser based on synthetic detergants actually removes far less lipids than a traditional bar soap, and can even be formulated to have a pH similar to that of human skin...........soaps are usually hars and alkaline, and remove way more protective epidermal lipids than need to be removed, and can damage the skin's barrier function......this is why maybe the soapers in that article were more prone to skin allergies like poision ivy....than non soapers (it could have been pure coincidence that that man did not come into contact with any poision ivy during the non soaping period).

Soap is damaging to the skin, and sometimes the skin doesn't have time to repair it's lipid barrier lipids (not sebum). The alkalinity of soap furthers it's ability to damage the stratum corneum. At a pH of 9.5 the stratum corneum lipids become rigid which creates swelling in the stratum corneum. Soaps have pH's between 8.5 and 10.5 (with the exception of Dove a syndet/soap combination bar..pH of 7.5). This is too high fot the skin which has a pH of about 5.0. It's not really good to use soap, however notrmal skin can easily repair the damage soap causes to the epidermal lipids........it's those abnormal skin (like myeslf) that need to be careful with it)........

It was an original idea ut the article was poorly written and nothing was actually backed up.......I have issues with statments like:

"Biochemical analysis of a dayly soaper might reveal a higher lipid plasma concentrationthan the same person later in life aftetr not soaping (WTF???)...."The servomechanism of lower secretory needs would have hepatically produced precursor molecules and accordingly, the plasma concentration of cholesterol, choklesterol esters, fatty acids and triglycerides would drop to normal" His whole theory is based on a theory that was debunked in the 1950's.....he needs to get with the program........

Maybe I do accept some things written in textbooks. I spent nearly 20 years of my life with my nose in a textbook of sorts and I'll probably spend the rest of my life reading textbooks and scientific studies and parers and articles.........how is that bullshit??

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I probably spent more on reading medical textbooks and research articles.... And probably wrote more scientific papers than you did my darling. Science is boring.

You are right btw it is not a well written article, we can say that it is a bad paper. But don't be so confident! As I said knowing textbooks is not enough for research, you will NEVER EVER discover anything just reading textbooks.

You should always find the valuable points even in such a bad paper, and that is called original idea.

Probably you know more about the skin, but then please tell me what the function of sebaceous glands is? You will probably know what textbooks say, and THAT IS BULLSHIT!!!!

Please tell me you don't really think "soaping" causes heart disease.........because removing the lipids from the skin makes the body produce more cholesterol and triglycerides..........that clog our arteries......I don't get it....... :wall:

I did point out the valubale points....well I tried to anyway.....there really weren't any. The textbooks don't know tell me everything and I don't rely only on what I read in books and papers......I do make my own connections from time to time.

About sebaceous glands....how bout you tell me what their function is. The scientific community doesn't know.......and I'm not about to say I know either. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the function of sebaceous glands is to produce sebum........Sebum has no function except to clog up our sebaceous ducts....and make pimples......

Some say (many textbooks) that it's function is to lubricate and moisturize the skin. That is bullshit and skin that is exceptionally oily actually becomes dry, since the free fatty acids in the sebum can disrupt the epidermal lipids and impede barrier function.....Actually oily skin usually has an impaired water barrier function for this reason......because there isn't enough linoleic acid avaliable for the sebocytes to produce senum with the correect fatty acids, often oleic acid is found in it's place. when the bacteria breaks the senbum down the free oleic acid is in contact with the epidermal lipids (mainly the cermaides....actually ceramide 1 specifically.....an acylglyucosyl ceramide). Linioleic acid is esterfied at the omega-hydroxyl position on the acylglucosyl ceramides. This is necessecary for proper barrier function, and proper extracellular lipid structure......replace linoleic acid with oleic acid and the barrier is impeded and the skin cells can't desqumate (shed) properly since the bond between the ceramide and the oleic acid isn't easily cleaved by a certian lipxygenase enzyme.........So my point is that sebum can be bad for the skin.....

I've always wondered exactly what the function of sebum is. it's slightly emollient and has very slight antimicrobial properties, but prepubertial childern do not produce sebum. Vellus follicles become sebaceous follicles during puberty at the smae time other vellus follicles become terminal hair follicles and others become the apocrine glands......this is all under the direction of testosterone.....clearly sebacous glands have a sexual function.......what that is we do not know yet, but it may be that the sebaceous glands have a role in phermone production similar to he apocrine glands......we still don't know what the hell sebacous glands do....you tell me.......

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It's a theory, one backed up with reasoning but it's still a little silly.

I could back any theory in the world up with evidence but it doesn't make it any more true.

Acne is caused within not what we do on the outside.

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Could there be a connection between soaping and acne? We remove the protecting layer of lipids every day with soaping/showering, it would be quite logical. Any suggestions?

What an original hypothesis!!! Read this! (see the attachment!)

Med Hypotheses. 1983 Jun;11(2):251-4.

The role of soap and nutrition in producing human diseases I.

Cane RH.

Direct clinical observation gives insight to the hypothesis of daily soaping by

humans as the cause of arteriosclerosis. The constant resupply to sebaceous

glands by hepatic synthesis of cholesterol and lipid compounds raises plasma

concentrations and accordingly these compounds plaque out of suspension onto

arteriolar intimal surfaces.

PMID: 6888309 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[attachmentid=4779]

I stopped using soap a long time ago, now I only use distilled water that I've added sea salt to. My skin is soooo much nicer, clearer, and even toned. Dont forget that water from the tap contains chlorine. Chlorine is an oxidizing agent, oxidizers hardened the natural sebum in the skin (oxidation of sebum=blackheads=acne). Try it for yourselves. I used to be so affraid of NOT using soap, now I just regret that I ever did.

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I probably spent more on reading medical textbooks and research articles.... And probably wrote more scientific papers than you did my darling. Science is boring.

You are right btw it is not a well written article, we can say that it is a bad paper. But don't be so confident! As I said knowing textbooks is not enough for research, you will NEVER EVER discover anything just reading textbooks.

You should always find the valuable points even in such a bad paper, and that is called original idea.

Probably you know more about the skin, but then please tell me what the function of sebaceous glands is? You will probably know what textbooks say, and THAT IS BULLSHIT!!!!

Please tell me you don't really think "soaping" causes heart disease.........because removing the lipids from the skin makes the body produce more cholesterol and triglycerides..........that clog our arteries......I don't get it....... :wall:

I did point out the valubale points....well I tried to anyway.....there really weren't any. The textbooks don't know tell me everything and I don't rely only on what I read in books and papers......I do make my own connections from time to time.

About sebaceous glands....how bout you tell me what their function is. The scientific community doesn't know.......and I'm not about to say I know either. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the function of sebaceous glands is to produce sebum........Sebum has no function except to clog up our sebaceous ducts....and make pimples......

Some say (many textbooks) that it's function is to lubricate and moisturize the skin. That is bullshit and skin that is exceptionally oily actually becomes dry, since the free fatty acids in the sebum can disrupt the epidermal lipids and impede barrier function.....Actually oily skin usually has an impaired water barrier function for this reason......because there isn't enough linoleic acid avaliable for the sebocytes to produce senum with the correect fatty acids, often oleic acid is found in it's place. when the bacteria breaks the senbum down the free oleic acid is in contact with the epidermal lipids (mainly the cermaides....actually ceramide 1 specifically.....an acylglyucosyl ceramide). Linioleic acid is esterfied at the omega-hydroxyl position on the acylglucosyl ceramides. This is necessecary for proper barrier function, and proper extracellular lipid structure......replace linoleic acid with oleic acid and the barrier is impeded and the skin cells can't desqumate (shed) properly since the bond between the ceramide and the oleic acid isn't easily cleaved by a certian lipxygenase enzyme.........So my piont is that sebum can be bad for the skin.....

I personally believe sebum (or excess sebum) is a symptom of linoleic deficiency. I used to have the oiliest skin around, constantly had to wash my face and use tissue to blot. My scalp, back and body were also oily. I noticed that the cellular turnover was slow, or maybe that the skin cells were just sticky and building up; every pore was clogged and my scalp always had a nasty buildup of dead oily skin. Blackheads galore too which were made worse by eating oils/foods high in oleic acid. This was the clue that got me thinking:why would oleic acid cause my blackheads to get out of control? Did some research and now I no longer have any of those problems; just mild blackheads, as long as I eat some sunflower seeds and take evening primrose everyday. Also have to be extra careful not to take in linoleneic acid (03) because for some reason it

blocks the absorption of the linoleic and my skin starts to get dry and oily again.

(Labgirl do you have any ideas why the linolenic acid reverses the good effects of linoleic for me?)

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I personally believe sebum (or excess sebum) is a symptom of linoleic deficiency. I used to have the oiliest skin around, constantly had to wash my face and use tissue to blot. My scalp, back and body were also oily.

The key is that was your experience and the possible reason of your excess sebum, the reality is that there are 1001 different causes of excess sebum and it will be different in one person to the next.

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What an original hypothesis!!! Read this! (see the attachment!)

"Direct clinical observation gives insight to the hypothesis of daily soaping by

humans as the cause of arteriosclerosis. The constant resupply to sebaceous

glands by hepatic synthesis of cholesterol and lipid compounds raises plasma

concentrations and accordingly these compounds plaque out of suspension onto

arteriolar intimal surfaces."

LabGirl already very adequately replied to that silliness, but I can't resist throwing in my own two cents' worth, too: the theory above is based on one fatal flaw, which is the assumption that sebum production by the sebaceous glands is increased when you wash your skin. However, we now know that that's FALSE. Sebum is produced continuously, whether you wash your skin or not. That's been demonstrated in a variety of experiments over the years ever since 1958. The clown who wrote that article above in 1983 was already 25 years behind the times at the time he wrote it! ;)

So washing causes heart disease. ROTFLMAO!! You read all kinds of goofy theories in Medical Hypotheses!

Probably you know more about the skin, but then please tell me what the function of sebaceous glands is?

No less an authority than Kligman (a legend in the field of dermatology) feels that there IS no function for sebaceous glands. He feels that they are "living fossils" which lost their usefulness to mankind long ago.

Bryan

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You are a living fossil Bryan. Your brain has no function, I guess. And those guys like you lost their usefulness at birth.

No less an authority than Kligman (a legend in the field of dermatology) feels that there IS no function for sebaceous glands. He feels that they are "living fossils" which lost their usefulness to mankind long ago.

Bryan

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(Labgirl do you have any ideas why the linolenic acid reverses the good effects of linoleic for me?)

*whisper* they compete for the same enzyme, IMO you got your theory the wrong way round but i dare not say anything as i fear the wrath of labgirl :shifty::shhh::whistle:

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This is true ... I dont like synthetic soaps, and I only wash myself with water too! haha .. :P well, I get a DOSE of chlorine in water, but I never used body washes, etc... Also, knowing I only wash my face with soap, my back is 99.999999% acne free.. It looks nice too!! (unlike my face LOL) I might get uneven bump once in 4 month, thats all.. :) Maybe this is actually true.

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Freaky, let me be the first to let you know , (since you're new and all)

Our beloved Labgirl is not only a working cosmetologist, but has a MASTER'S in this particular area of study.

Just so that you don't wind up with your foot *too* far down your throat.....

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(Labgirl do you have any ideas why the linolenic acid reverses the good effects of linoleic for me?)

*whisper* they compete for the same enzyme, IMO you got your theory the wrong way round but i dare not say anything as i fear the wrath of labgirl :shifty::shhh::whistle:

Um, yes they do actually compete for the same enzyme.......I never said thay they didn't.......I have more to say on this linolenic, linoleic, olic acid thing.....but I have to finish up something here at work.......I'll say more later......

And don't be afraid of Labgirl......She's only 4'11" and a smidge (although she is known to flat out lie and say she's 5'0" though....so beware)...........she's kind of a whimp to.....

Freaky, let me be the first to let you know , (since you're new and all)

Our beloved Labgirl is not only a working cosmetologist, but has a MASTER'S in this particular area of study.

Just so that you don't wind up with your foot *too* far down your throat.....

I am not a cosmetologist....... :naughty:

I make makeup......I don't put it on people.....and I can't even be bothered to put it on myself.........

But thanks for the props Elsewhere!!!!!!! :wub:

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i never said that they didn't

I never said that you said that they didn't :eh:

Our beloved Labgirl is...a working cosmetologist.

don't they study the universe? :)

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*whisper* they compete for the same enzyme, IMO you got your theory the wrong way round but i dare not say anything as i fear the wrath of labgirl :shifty::shhh::whistle:

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*whisper* they compete for the same enzyme, IMO you got your theory the wrong way round but i dare not say anything as i fear the wrath of labgirl :shifty::shhh::whistle:

Yep, I know that they compete for the same enzymes but other people dont seem to have to AVOID omega 3's to extremes like I do to keep their skin from getting dry, oily, acne etc. Why me is what Im wondering?

I wish I had time to expain why you have this problem.....I have to run to the gym......

Anyway......it's not good to have to avoid Omega-3's. They do have a great biochemical importance and it's not like avoiding refined sugar or trans fats, which are things we can do without. Linoelic acid (omega-6) is actually precursors to pro-inflammatory prostaglandins and leukotrienes and such and linolenic and EPA and DHA, are precursors to anti-inflammatory prostaglandins and whatnot..........I'm not saying that you should give up Omega-6's.....they have a great biochemical importance too......(read my previous post)...

The thing is that there is a balance between the two (three if you count oleic acid too) that most of us get wrong......

I'll have more to say later.....

I's almost gym time......

i never said that they didn't

I never said that you said that they didn't :eh:

Our beloved Labgirl is...a working cosmetologist.

don't they study the universe? :)

I'M NOT A COSMETOLOGIST!!!!!!!!!!

I'm a chemist. I make makeup (that is my current job). I'm going for a PhD in Biochemistry in the fall at the University of Pennsylvania......

I don't put makeup on people or pop pimples for a living......Hell I don't even know how to put makeup on myself.........

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*whisper* they compete for the same enzyme, IMO you got your theory the wrong way round but i dare not say anything as i fear the wrath of labgirl :shifty::shhh::whistle:

Yep, I know that they compete for the same enzymes but other people dont seem to have to AVOID omega 3's to extremes like I do to keep their skin from getting dry, oily, acne etc. Why me is what Im wondering?

I wish I had time to expain why you have this problem.....I have to run to the gym......

Anyway......it's not good to have to avoid Omega-3's. They do have a great biochemical importance and it's not like avoiding refined sugar or trans fats, which are things we can do without. Linoelic acid (omega-6) is actually precursors to pro-inflammatory prostaglandins and leukotrienes and such and linolenic and EPA and DHA, are precursors to anti-inflammatory prostaglandins and whatnot..........I'm not saying that you should give up Omega-6's.....they have a great biochemical importance too......(read my previous post)...

The thing is that there is a balance between the two (three if you count oleic acid too) that most of us get wrong......

I'll have more to say later.....

It's gym time.......

*whisper* they compete for the same enzyme, IMO you got your theory the wrong way round but i dare not say anything as i fear the wrath of labgirl :shifty::shhh::whistle:

Yep, I know that they compete for the same enzymes but other people dont seem to have to AVOID omega 3's to extremes like I do to keep their skin from getting dry, oily, acne etc. Why me is what Im wondering?

I wish I had time to expain why you have this problem.....I have to run to the gym......

Anyway......it's not good to have to avoid Omega-3's. They do have a great biochemical importance and it's not like avoiding refined sugar or trans fats, which are things we can do without. Linoelic acid (omega-6) is actually precursors to pro-inflammatory prostaglandins and leukotrienes and such and linolenic and EPA and DHA, are precursors to anti-inflammatory prostaglandins and whatnot..........I'm not saying that you should give up Omega-6's.....they have a great biochemical importance too......(read my previous post)...

The thing is that there is a balance between the two (three if you count oleic acid too) that most of us get wrong......

Thanks Labgirl, actually I avoid omega 3's but I still get them in my diet because I eat a lot of foods that are naturally high in them. I guess I have to monitor my balance of them by reading my skin. Too much omega 3 combined with too much oleic acid and Im in for a nasty flare of seb derm. I think you mentioned that you too have this problem (seb derm that is), and that your comedones leave gapping pores for a few days after they come out (I think I read this) anyway I have the same problem-gapping pores from blackheads only sometimes they stay open. These would be scarred pores I guess. When I get enough omega 6 and stay away from omega 3, I have less of a chance of these gapping pores appearing after blackheads. So anyway I do my best to balance the two/three fatty acids because of the potential scars (seb derm isnt too pretty either). I would sooooo appriciate any insight you have on the fatty acids and blackheads and also on why the pores wont close. thanks!

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Freaky --> I liked your theory. It's good to question everything.. it's good to evolve and look for answers, maybe .. soap, milk, wheat, sugar, genes all cause acne together, maybe none of them do. As long as we keep posting theories, the answer will be found. And just because someone has a degree in something, it doesn't prove anything. Experience is valuable, no doubt, but anyone can one day be saying one thing, until a random discovery proves everything opposite :)

Freaky, don't worry. Keep us interested.!

LabGirl, you will make lots of money on making make up. Chem was fun back in Jr.High, but nothing will ever heal any of us BETTER than mother nature. Can I get an AMEN??!!

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Freaky, sweetheart - you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Your ideas, as interesting and based in science as they may be, are sadly being negated by the poor, sarcastic and arrogaunt attitude that oozes from your posts like a pestilence.

You may be the most right man in the entire universe - but if the majority of your arguments fall on deaf ears due to poor delivery -

what good does being right do you?

Play nicer, or else the deleting will commence in proper form. :)

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Freaky --> I liked your theory. It's good to question everything.. it's good to evolve and look for answers, maybe .. soap, milk, wheat, sugar, genes all cause acne together, maybe none of them do. As long as we keep posting theories, the answer will be found. And just because someone has a degree in something, it doesn't prove anything. Experience is valuable, no doubt, but anyone can one day be saying one thing, until a random discovery proves everything opposite :)

Freaky, don't worry. Keep us interested.!

LabGirl, you will make lots of money on making make up. Chem was fun back in Jr.High, but nothing will ever heal any of us BETTER than mother nature. Can I get an AMEN??!!

I like that you stand by your views and experiences in the face of the ever changing science. :clap: So I'll give you an "amen" ;)

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