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tommy

Testosterone cream?

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Age 15 to 17 I underwent a large amount of surgery. This meant me taking repeatedly high dosages of morphine.

During this Period I developed moderate acne, My doctor prescribed me Retin-A Tretinoin Cream and oral antibiotics. These have no effect at reversing my acne problem, However I did start to notice my skin drying out more and more especially after showering.

Due to my doctor failing to tell me this was one of the possible side effects of the cream, I continued using the cream another three years. I now stopped using tretinoin cream well over 18 months ago now. But My skin is still very dry and flaky especially after showering. It requires heavy moisturisation and I can only take ice cold showers.

After reading up on the effects of morphine and tretinoin on the Sebaceous Glands and Testoerone production (the glands responsible for the skins moisturisation and waterproofing) It is my hope that applying a Testosterone cream to the effected areas will help reduce this dryness (and maybe the also the acne) by increasing my skins Sebum production.

Does anyone have any experiences or recommendations of Testosterone creams that might help me achieve this?

And has anyone else found simlar problems arising from morphine or tretinoin?

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I don't know if you want to use the testosteron cream. People who are prone to acne try to avoid testosterone lol No I have not noticed morphine or tretinoin use doing this. I have used heroin and morphine and did not notice extra dryness, but I have heard that opiates do age skin faster, so I guess it may have, but I am sure it is after long usage. Like junkies. Tretinoin shouldn't have permanently made your skin dryer. I think it may be wise to just wait a while.

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Tretinoin shouldn't have permanently made your skin dryer. I think it may be wise to just wait a while.

Ive already waited 18 months, and although its not as dry as when i was using tretinoin (even moisteriser had no effect then) It doesnt seem to be improving any futher.

Morphine is not documented to cause dry skin, but it's known to reduce Testosterone levels, and testosterone stimuates the production of Sebum. Morphine is just basicly just strong heroin, most heroin users ive seen on TV seem to have bad skin (apart from Ewan McGregor in trainspotting, but i dont think that counts)

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more sebum = more oil = more zits.

This is just plain wrong.

Sebum does not cause zits, quite the opposite infact sebum is vital for healthy skin.

Its when Sebum gets blocked in the pours that zits occur, it seems completely wrong to reduce sebum production this is will only make blockages more likely due to increased dryness and bacterial growths, together with less pressure in the pours forcing crap out.

While some people might have very over productive sebum glands, then Trentoin maybe benfical, but i doubt this really applies to majority of people.

I read somewhere that Isotretinoin (which is more powerful than tretinoin) only effects improvements in 60% of its users. Together with the placebo effect any drug gives the user, that's a worrying statistic.

What's happening to the remaining 40%, are they suffering long term side effects like me?

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First off you may be confused. Isotretinoin (the oral form) gives improvement to a lot more then just 60% of the people who take it, but it may not last forever or years...Maybe that is what you were saying. i doubt you were referring to Isotrex, which is much like topical tretinoin. If you were forgive me. But accutane (isotretinoin), is a whole different sphere then just retin a for a brand name example...Unless you were taking oral tretinoin which I doubt unless you had a a form of leukemia recently.

Second off, heroin is synthetically derived from morphine. Heroin will give effects more quickly then most opiates due to its lipid solubility, (like in a few seconds). But it has been banned due to the fact of its "euphoric" affects and high instance of abuse (though all opiates have this warning). Besides I do not believe you can actually become addicted to something unless you are emotionally dependent on it. I know people who do opiates, and I have, and they/I have not become addicted. Heroin is actually stronger then morphine in many cases. Though some say morphine is just as strong as heroin.

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Its strange that you experience dryness 18 months after cause tretinoin absorbtion(when applied topically) is minimal so it doesnt affect sebaceous glands in the longterm.It usualluy causes dryness during the period you are using it.

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My understanding is Isotretinoin (oral) and Tretinoin (cream) both do similar things; they use large amounts of vitamin A compound to decrease Sebum output. The oral method being allot stronger.

As for success rates, truly independent studies are hard to come by, if you ask your doctor or the drug companies of course they will tell you its the best thing since slice bread.

I see studies that put it at 60%, another one that put it at 80% with a 20% remission.

The very fact that this forum exists is evidence that these drugs aren’t effective for everyone.

I was using the two creams, one old one that was eventually replaced by Retin-A.

Which I agree shouldn’t cause long term effects, but I was using it for 3 years continually, which I think is longer than the recommended time period.

But that doesn’t help me much, because something clearly has, before I started getting pumped with all these different drugs, I had no problem with dryness what soever.

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That 60% number references the percentage of patients that achieve a permanent or long term remission from a single course at the recommended dosage. That number goes up to about 80% after a second course, and 95% after a third. Those are damn good odds overall.

And even people who don't get a good total remission from a course often find that their acne is much less severe and can be controlled with conventional treatments it was previously resistant to. That counts as success in my eyes even if it wasn't complete remission.

Besides I do not believe you can actually become addicted to something unless you are emotionally dependent on it.

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Id be interested in any studies or statistical data you on have on this subject.

If the figure of 95% success rate is true, then why IS there over 18000 members on this forum? why even have a forum whats to debate?

why not just have a webpage with a big banner saying

Got Acne? TAKE TRETINOIN.. END OF MESSAGE.

somthings just not adding up.

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Tretinoin cream won't reduce your sebum output. Isotrexin which contains isotretinoin rather than tretinoin, claims to reduce sebum production, but I've never heard of anyone experiencing it. Only oral isotretinoin will reduce your sebum output

And what exactly is this testosterone cream? I've never heard of it

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Tretinoin cream won't reduce your sebum output.

Again completely wrong

Tretinoin creams like Retin-A contain Retinoic Acids (hence the name)

Retinoic acids are apart of the makeup of vitamin A, and its the increased dosage of Vitamin A in the body that

cause the sebaceous glands to decrease in size and sebum production.

There seems to be alot confused people out there.

This is basic stuff your doctors should be telling you before prescribing.

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Id be interested in any studies or statistical data you on have on this subject.

These are the references to the articles on Accutane remission that i most easily found (i'm sure there's more, but i'm only willing to do so much of your reseach for you) , i don't know of any free internet postings of them but you can look them up at the library:

1. Peck GL, Olsen TG, Yoder FW, et al. Prolonged remissions of cystic and conglobate acne with 13-cis-retinoic acid. N Engl J Med 300:329-333, 1979. 2. Pochi PE, Shalita AR, Strauss JS, Webster SB. Report of the consensus conference on acne classification. J Am Acad Dermatol 24:495-500, 1991. 3. Farrell LN, Strauss JS, Stranieri AM. The treatment of severe cystic acne with 13-cis-retinoic acid: evaluation of sebum production and the clinical response in a multiple-dose trial. J Am Acad Dermatol 3:602-611, 1980.

If the figure of 95% success rate is true, then why IS there over 18000 members on this forum?

Uh, 18,000 members of Acne.org does not mean 18,000 people taking Accutane, it's a general acne site. 95% success rate means a long term or permanent remission, it can still come back even if treatment is successful. For instance my first course did achieve a long term remission, but it eventually came back. The first course was still successful.

why not just have a webpage with a big banner saying

Got Acne? TAKE TRETINOIN.. END OF MESSAGE.

Well, tretinoin (which is a topical) is a very effective treatment for most mild acne, as is BP which is what the site was primarily designed to promote. However some people require a different approach. Some don't want to use prescriptions, some don't want to use even OTC meds and try to tackle their acne via diet or folk remedies. Some just want to post here because everyone knows what it's like to have acne.

But the % success rates we were talking about is for isotretinoin (a systemic medication better known as Accutane), not for tretinoin. I have no idea what success rates on that are, and they would require consistent use.

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thanks ill take a look at them.

so what you saying is that 95% successrate for permanent or long term remission, doesn’t actually mean permanent or long term. In which case these statisticians are already altering the truth before they've even started, god knows what they've done to the figures.

and the fact that all users here aren’t on isotretinoin is exactly my point, if

the drug really had a 95% successrate then what would be the point of using anything else?

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That 60% number references the percentage of patients that achieve a permanent or long term remission from a single course at the recommended dosage. That number goes up to about 80% after a second course, and 95% after a third. Those are damn good odds overall.

And even people who don't get a good total remission from a course often find that their acne is much less severe and can be controlled with conventional treatments it was previously resistant to. That counts as success in my eyes even if it wasn't complete remission.

Besides I do not believe you can actually become addicted to something unless you are emotionally dependent on it.

That's a dangerous belief. Some drugs affect the pathways, neurotransmitters, and receptors in the brain - they cause physical addiction regardless of your emotional state. Now it may be true that some drugs like marijuana don't do this, yet people get mentally addicted to them, but not all drugs are so benign. You may be able to get away with using this sort of drug recreationally so long as you allow enough time between doses, but once you start using regularly you become an addict quickly. And as i'm sure you are aware, a physical addiction can't be easily kicked by mere mental resolve.

Yes, people can become physically dependent on opiates pretty quickly, especially if a large dose is used initially. But physically dependent is different then being addicted to a drug. Taking heroin/etc. for a few times, or sometimes even once may give you physical and mental withdrawal symtpoms (tiredness, fatigue, irritability), in which many people will take it again to get that high back, which your own endorphins can give you. That is how opiates work, though I will not get into that. When actual addiction sets in, you crave that "high". You crave feeling good, and everything being alright and good and nice around you. If you are talking about being physically dependent on a drug though, sure emotional things does not need to come into play. But even oral corticosteroids can make your body physically dependent on them, in which stopping the steroid therapy will give you withdrawal symptoms. But nobody would call that being addicted to prednisone for example. But anabolic steroids, people are addicted to them because of the fact that they want muscles, they like feeling powerful, they are afraid they will lose muscle mass, so on and so forth.

Tretinoin cream won't reduce your sebum output.

Again completely wrong

Tretinoin creams like Retin-A contain Retinoic Acids (hence the name)

Retinoic acids are apart of the makeup of vitamin A, and its the increased dosage of Vitamin A in the body that

cause the sebaceous glands to decrease in size and sebum production.

There seems to be alot confused people out there.

This is basic stuff your doctors should be telling you before prescribing.

Tommy I have no seen any studies of showing that applying topical retinoids would cause sabaceous glands to decrease in size and sebum production. Also, topical tretinoin does not even stay in the blood stream. I think that the tiny tiny amount of tretinoin that goes in there is let out the next time you pee. So it doesn't really increase any vitamin a content in your body, that is why doctors don't really know if retin a is safe in pregnancy due to the fact that the tretinoin content does not stay in your body for hardly a long enough time. Not to mention I have been on all the retinoids (except isotrex) and non reduced oil production, and I have been using retin a for over a year now. Oral retinoids are the only things that has been proven to do those things that you are stating topical retinoids also do.

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so what you saying is that 95% successrate for permanent or long term remission, doesn’t actually mean permanent or long term. In which case these statisticians are already altering the truth before they've even started, god knows what they've done to the figures.

No, i'm saying long term or permanent remission means just that - long term or permanent. Someone can have a long term remission and still eventually need another course. So long as they are clear for a long time, the course counts as a long term remission. It's not a manipulation of statistics, it's plain English.

and the fact that all users here aren’t on isotretinoin is exactly my point, if

the drug really had a 95% successrate then what would be the point of using anything else?

If it didn't have such intense side effects and reliably cause horrible birth defects it likely would be the drug of choice for almost all dermatologists. Nothing else can compare to the effectiveness of isotretinoin in treating acne. Nothing else even gives you a chance at remission. But because of the side effects and birth defects, great restrictions have been placed on it's use, and responsible doctors don't prescribe it willy-nilly. Other treatments have advantages in that they don't cause systemic side effects, don't require regular bloodtests, can be used on people who are contraindicted from using isotretinoin, and are often quite effective on less severe acne.

Yes, people can become physically dependent on opiates pretty quickly, especially if a large dose is used initially. But physically dependent is different then being addicted to a drug.

OK, this is a just a difference in terminology then. I consider all physical dependencies to be addictions, but i see what you're saying. It sounded like "if i don't beleive i'm addicted, i'm not" but i see that's not what you were getting at, sorry.

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And regarding your initial post - all the tretinoin monographs i've found say "to date, all adverse effects of tretinoin have been reversible upon discontinuation of therapy." Tretinoin doesn't permanently alter sebaceous glands the way isotretinoin can.

As far as your presumed testosterone link, i can only advise you to see an endocrinologist if you suspect the issue is hormonal due to the morphine.

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Its not plain English at all, it's a highly subtle use of language which has been designed to hide the real facts from the reader.

Something is either 'permanent' meaning it lasts for ever or it isnt.

By grouping the word together with "long term" they are suggesting that although it is not technically permanent, its something very close to that. Ergo ;- a typical lifespan of a young adult user 60years +.

I very much doubt that these have been 60 year studies, so for them to say the success rate is permanent is clearly an out right lie, and to group together two words in this fashion is clearly devious.

Why should I believe the studies of any such people?

A truly independent academic study is about the revealing of 'truth' not its concealment.

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Something is either �€˜permanent�€™ meaning it lasts for ever or it isnt.

By grouping the word together with "long term" they are suggesting that although it is not technically permanent, its something very close to that. Ergo ;- a typical lifespan of a young adult user 60years +.

No, they are including TWO SEPARATE GROUPS as successes. Those who experience permanent remission, and those who experience long-term remission.

Why should I believe the studies of any such people?

Then don't. No skin off my back. I gave you the names of some studies, i assume you looked them up and found them unsatisfying? And really what does the success rate of isotretinoin have to do with your original topic anyway? You didn't take isotretinoin.

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yup I looked up the studies.

One was looked at various different cultures around the world which did not have a problem with acne.

All very interesting.. but didn't actually give many answers, apart from insulin may or may not be a causal factor.

And the other one was an actual Clinical Trial.

But .. a trial that consisted of just 14 people and lasted for just over a year and half.

Sounds very representative :liar: and I don't know any doctor who would describe any positive medical condition that lasts only 20 months as "long term".

Id put a lot more faith in even a totally no scientific poll run on this site.

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Interesting that the titles of those studies didn't mention anything about studying various cultures around the world and specifically referenced isotretinoin treatment of cystic and conglobate acne, but whatever you say.

And i still fail to see what any of this has to do with your situation since you didn't take isotretinoin anyway.

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Ah, so you in fact did not look up the articles on isotretinoin's effectiveness that are the specific ones that the numbers you are questioning come from? And have yet to explain what it has to do with your topic in the first place? I can see that talking to you is a waste of time. Have a nice life.

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QUOTE(tommy @ Jan 11 2006, 06:06 PM)

QUOTE(ben100604 @ Jan 11 2006, 09:48 AM)

Tretinoin cream won't reduce your sebum output.

Again completely wrong

Tretinoin creams like Retin-A contain Retinoic Acids (hence the name)

Retinoic acids are apart of the makeup of vitamin A, and its the increased dosage of Vitamin A in the body that

cause the sebaceous glands to decrease in size and sebum production.

There seems to be alot confused people out there.

This is basic stuff your doctors should be telling you before prescribing.

Tommy I have no seen any studies of showing that applying topical retinoids would cause sabaceous glands to decrease in size and sebum production. Also, topical tretinoin does not even stay in the blood stream. I think that the tiny tiny amount of tretinoin that goes in there is let out the next time you pee. So it doesn't really increase any vitamin a content in your body, that is why doctors don't really know if retin a is safe in pregnancy due to the fact that the tretinoin content does not stay in your body for hardly a long enough time. Not to mention I have been on all the retinoids (except isotrex) and non reduced oil production, and I have been using retin a for over a year now. Oral retinoids are the only things that has been proven to do those things that you are stating topical retinoids also do.

I've been on isotrex and isotrexin which didn't reduce my sebum at all. I've also been on differin which doesn't contain tretinoin, but its make up is pretty similar and that didn't reduce sebum

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Ah, so you in fact did not look up the articles on isotretinoin's effectiveness that are the specific ones that the numbers you are questioning come from? And have yet to explain what it has to do with your topic in the first place? I can see that talking to you is a waste of time. Have a nice life.

No.. that’s not what I said at all.

I shall repeat what I said for the hard of reading like your self.

I looked up your study, It had a sample of just 14 people (no control group was mentioned) and lasted only 20months. As studies go its pathetic.. a PHD student could do better.

The effectiveness of blocking sebum production to prevent acne has everything to do with my topic, as I am wanting to know about reversing this process.. however I do not wish to discuss it further... with you anyway (you cant teach a monkey Latin no matter how hard you try)

Good luck with your acne.. (people like you will need it)

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