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fukcacne

liver flush

Because you are putting people's health in jeopardy by lying to them.

Funny, I thought I was here merely to share information with people. People's health is in their own hands -- it's their choice whether they choose to follow a course of action or not. I'd rather share my personal experiences than keep everything to myself.

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Shouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to find half a dozen examples of why this whole "flush" is a load of shit.

Literally AND figuratively? ;)

Bryan

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Ok my turn to step in..

just want to make a comment to melek.

Honestly I don't know whether or not liver flush's are legit or not. But I would like to comment on how every

doctor would laugh at the suggestion of 1. Some of these same doctors prescribe things such as anti depressants, accutane!!!.. go check a few forums on these 2 and see the damage they've done. My point on this is doctors sometimes are morons too. They have this habit of prescribing something for everyone, and the prescription may cure the ailment such as acne with accutane.. but then leaves the patient with far worse side effects. The medical industry has become a corporation where money is the bottom line. So your probably right a doctor would laugh at these natural healing stuff as he's been taught by the pharmoseatical companies to just prescibe away.

My derm never told me to eat healthy he just would prescribe one thing after another. I'm not saying a healthy diet alone will cure acne, but since I've gotton healthy I have cured my minor acne!!!!!!

Something tells me you don't have the background to properly determine whether a flush is effective or not. Just cause you read some sites suggesting its a scam doesn't make it so. There's probably 100's of sites to support both sides.

To give my honest opinion. I have no idea if they work or not. But I would advise anyone investigating the possibility of doing these bowel, kidney,, & liver cleanses or things of this nature to instead first try to become healthy. The liver is supposed be one of the strongest organs in terms of healing inself. So giving your body the right things will enable it to heal itself.

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Melek!!! Malic /me-lek :razz:/ acid from apples is scientifically proven to dissolve gall/ billiary stones. :naughty: It has worked for me too, probably placebo. You HAVE to have some room for doubt, though, right? If I happen to come across some relevant medical study, then so be it. For now, we know that. Grape seed extract, lemon, epsom salt, olive oil, perhaps too. But RELATING LIVER stone build up TO ACNE, i either have to read sweetjade's response to that or she has yet to make one :wub:

To give my honest opinion. I have no idea if they work or not. But I would advise anyone investigating the possibility of doing these bowel, kidney,, & liver cleanses or things of this nature to instead first try to become healthy. The liver is supposed be one of the strongest organs in terms of healing inself. So giving your body the right things will enable it to heal itself.

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If its bunk, then how come it works for so many people??

Where is evidence of this? A handful of people on a an acne-sufferers forum saying that this cured their acne? Well, that makes perfect sense. A forum dedicated to this crap where people who spend a large chunk of their money and life believing in and promoting this, talking about how they are doctors/have docters who support them/have had laboratories prove that what they say is true: yet curiously don't have proof of any of this. A person with a website, selling 30 cents of herbs for $175-300 and flat out lying about the anatomy of the human body to dissuade people in need of surgery from having it and in doing so con a few hundred dollars out of them.

Where are the studies that prove malic acid is effective in dissolving stones?

Your derm didn't tell you to eat healthy, because he's not a nutritionist. Many dermatologists will recommend minor changes in diet as well as stress-reducing activities to improve overall health and appearance of skin. But they are not foolish enough to believe that diet will offer the total remedy to acne people come to them expecting. So they recommend treatments that are known to significantly reduce and even eliminate acne, which a change in diet has never be found to do. You're expecting him to recommend a method of treating your acne that he knows has next to no chance of being successful, when he has other treatments that have much higher success rates.

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No, you see. There's this little thing called scientific method. It says that my arguements are fact.

The scientific method and fact have nothing to do with each other. If you read any scientific journal, you'll notice that all test data should have a p value... and that data is either statistically significant or not... its never a 100% cause and effect... alwasy a correlation... and this correlation happened with certain variables in place...

science is always changing, especially nutrition and medicine... one day this is good for you the other day its not...

no one knows, i dont know you dont konw... only God knows

and no one is going to fund a study that requires you to take mg sulfate, grapefruit juice, and olive oil... unless they can turn eveyrthing in a pill... its not going to get funded... thus no one is going to publish a paper on this

so argueing back and forth isnt going to help... if you want to see if it works... someone should come up with a www site where people can enter their data... think of all the possible variables... and have them enter and compile some data

and your comment about nutritionlists.... im on rotation at unveristy medical center at princeton on the oncology floor... and all the patients get nutrional consults... and i see them drinking milk and eating cereal...

milk!

ahhh... dont get cancer... its not good

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Actually no. Only statistical data analyzed from multiple sources has a P value.

Milk does a body good.

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what sources? if you have a study and you youre trying to prove that theres a difference... and the difference is not by chance.... obviously youre going to have data from more than 1 group...

i dont know what youre trying to say...

mmm milk...

ha

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Perhaps the words in question should be "anectodal evidence", testimony or self-reporting/observation instead of the word "opinion" Admittedly none of these should be used soley as scientific evidence, but they lay the groundwork, based on observations, that ignites the interest for the scientific method to take flight.

Opinion

1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM

2 a : belief strongerthan impression and less strongthan positive knowledge b : a generally held view

3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

Fact

1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : FEAT b : CRIME <accessory after the fact> c archaic : ACTION

2 archaic : PERFORMANCE, DOING

3 : the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY <a question of fact hinges on evidence>

4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>

5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality

- in fact : in truth

Anecdotal

1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : ANECDOTIC 2 <my anecdotal uncle>

2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>

3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal painting> <anecdotal detail>

- an·ec·dot·al·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb

Evidence

1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter

2 : one who bears witness; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices

- in evidence 1 : to be seen : CONSPICUOUS <trim lawns ... are everywhere in evidence -- Amer. Guide Series: N.C.> 2 : as evidence

(curtesy of Merriam Webster)

See, an Opinion has NOTHING to do with observations let alone facts. While it can be heard, an opinion can't be seen, measured, let alone touched. An Opinion, whether right or wrong, is based one's own personal view no matter what is actually, factually, staring them straight in the face! :wall:

At least what the members here claim can be backed by clinical data, especially if they've obtained a baseline (blood tests, urine tests, photos, grading systems, etc) prior to treatment and appropriate clinical data post-treatment as to whether their medical signs truly reversed or not.

With members here, coming from a wide range of backgrounds and education, I highly doubt that those of us that are studying to be or are currently in medical school, biologists, or nutritionists are soo deluded that we can't tell whether we have 10 spots left or 1 after a specific treatment protocol.

Oh and if we were able to form a hypothesis based on our obeservations, you better believe that the majority of us repeatedthis in order to make sure that what we observed was indeed what was occuring. Test and Restest and make sure you eliminate as many confounding variables as possible. In the end...if this is still the result you would think people would believe us, but of course not. For example, everyone around me, friends, family, co-workers, saw a difference when I seriously changed my diet, including my Endocrinologist and he never said my skin looked good when I was taking my Anti-androgenic Sprionolactone and Avandia (insulin sensitzer) but...I guess my problem wasn't "serious enough" and the observations of others weren't objective enough, right? While some studies (for or against) are far better than others, even when we have provided (numerous) clinical abstracts or studies that further support what we actually observed..it still doesn't matter. It's never perfect enough....but that Chocolate Study sure was. :whistle:

Anyway, just for kicks:

What does it mean to be a skeptic?

Some people believe that skepticism is rejection of new ideas, or worse, they confuse“skeptic� with “cynic� and think that skeptics are a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons unwilling to accept any claim that challenges the status quo. This is wrong. Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas – no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position.�[3]

A skeptic is a truth-seeker who Socratic ally seeks truth by questioning assertions and beliefs. By the very definition, a skeptic is open-minded and a curious individual. On the other hand, a cynic projects that which they believe. Not only is the method of inquiry biased, but any answer (no matter how well reasoned) is unacceptable if it does not correspond to any subjective pre-existing belief of the cynic.Cynics are the ones motivated by their own inability to explore the world outside their subjective boundaries, resulting in dogmatic or closed-minded approaches to the argument.

The net effect of a skeptic is to establish truth no matter if it goes against established principles, while the net effect of a cynic is to hide the truth to maintain status quo. Therefore, it is crucial for both sides to recognize the thinking patterns so that we, humans, can evolve to discover our rightful place in the universe.

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Well, all I know is that Im going to continue to do the liver flushes and I will be the judge if they work or not. I have seen way to many readings on how they do work and very few on how they don't, so bring on the grapefruit, if it works great, if it doesn't, no harm done unlike accutane and other POS meds....

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Science is changing through an established process. It's already known that your theories fail on several levels of this process. Hence, your theories are proven false. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean crap when it's confronted with proven data. The fact is that you are wrong. I've shown this in several ways, and you can not address them. Thus your theory fails. You fall back on "anecdotal evidence" like this is a political or theoretical notion. When it is not. We are dealing with known and proven fact. You have no response to call these facts in to question. You have bullshit. No matter how often you repeat bullshit: in natural science, bullshit is still bullshit.

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Well, all I know is that Im going to continue to do the liver flushes and I will be the judge if they work or not. I have seen way to many readings on how they do work and very few on how they don't, so bring on the grapefruit, if it works great, if it doesn't, no harm done unlike accutane and other POS meds....

I totally agree with this. I, and only I, will be the judge of whether or not something works. I also suggest that other people just ignore Melek and not respond anymore to his posts, since every response seems to feed the flames of a totally unconstructive "debate" that he started, and that no one seems to be interested in besides him. I will continue to do liver flushes and see if they help my skin, as they seem to be so far.

~suzanne

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I totally agree with this. I, and only I, will be the judge of whether or not something works. I also suggest that other people just ignore Melek and not respond anymore to his posts, since every response seems to feed the flames of a totally unconstructive "debate" that he started, and that no one seems to be interested in besides him. I will continue to do liver flushes and see if they help my skin, as they seem to be so far.

~suzanne

Agreed. He is wasting plenty of his own time in a thread about a topic which he believes to be total bunk. Since most of the rest of us are here to use this forum for what it's meant to be used for, we needn't waste our own time trying to "debate" with someone so angry, rude, and close-minded.

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Hey Melek. I don't trust science because it will never reveal a cure for acne because it will cost billions to the acne industry.

Liver flushes are helpful in reducing acne.

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If its bunk, then how come it works for so many people??

Where is evidence of this? A handful of people on a an acne-sufferers forum saying that this cured their acne? Well, that makes perfect sense. A forum dedicated to this crap where people who spend a large chunk of their money and life believing in and promoting this, talking about how they are doctors/have docters who support them/have had laboratories prove that what they say is true: yet curiously don't have proof of any of this. A person with a website, selling 30 cents of herbs for $175-300 and flat out lying about the anatomy of the human body to dissuade people in need of surgery from having it and in doing so con a few hundred dollars out of them.

Where are the studies that prove malic acid is effective in dissolving stones?

Your derm didn't tell you to eat healthy, because he's not a nutritionist. Many dermatologists will recommend minor changes in diet as well as stress-reducing activities to improve overall health and appearance of skin. But they are not foolish enough to believe that diet will offer the total remedy to acne people come to them expecting. So they recommend treatments that are known to significantly reduce and even eliminate acne, which a change in diet has never be found to do. You're expecting him to recommend a method of treating your acne that he knows has next to no chance of being successful, when he has other treatments that have much higher success rates.

Who's selling herbs for $175-300.00?

You are outright lying about Julia Chang if this is what you are saying.

Maybe you'll build a fan base if you are honest and stop the immature insults.

Well, all I know is that Im going to continue to do the liver flushes and I will be the judge if they work or not. I have seen way to many readings on how they do work and very few on how they don't, so bring on the grapefruit, if it works great, if it doesn't, no harm done unlike accutane and other POS meds....

I totally agree with this. I, and only I, will be the judge of whether or not something works. I also suggest that other people just ignore Melek and not respond anymore to his posts, since every response seems to feed the flames of a totally unconstructive "debate" that he started, and that no one seems to be interested in besides him. I will continue to do liver flushes and see if they help my skin, as they seem to be so far.

~suzanne

:clap:

Ignore him.

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http://www.blessedherbs.com/?af=0019&sp=in...CFRwKSQodR1N1Bg

I was refering to this advertisement on the front page of ask shelly.

I am honest. That's why you're insulted. If someone believes something stupid, it's honest to tell them so. If they want to continue believing it despite it's being (in this case) physically impossible, they decide that telling them so is nothing but an "immature insult".

There are half a dozen entirely true reasons I gave why these can not possibly be gallstones. There are almost as many entirely true explainations of what they actually are. You're wrong. You may feel better about yourself by changing the subject to the manner in which I prove you wrong instead of actually admitting it. But you're still wrong. You just save a little face in front of the other people here who are content in their delusion. So you can all pat each other on the back about how you're "in the know" about the big bad profit-mongering medical community and everyone else is just fooling themselves if it makes you feel better about yourself. But I'm here, telling anyone who cares about the facts, that if you take these cock-and-bull holistic measures to deal with serious medical conditions, such as gallstones, you're going to wind up very sick, and in some cases very dead.

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http://www.blessedherbs.com/?af=0019&sp=in...CFRwKSQodR1N1Bg

I was refering to this advertisement on the front page of ask shelly.

What does that have to do with the liver flush?? Absolutely nothing. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with Shelley, either, as she is not the one selling it.

I am honest. That's why you're insulted. If someone believes something stupid, it's honest to tell them so. If they want to continue believing it despite it's being (in this case) physically impossible, they decide that telling them so is nothing but an "immature insult".

There are half a dozen entirely true reasons I gave why these can not possibly be gallstones. There are almost as many entirely true explainations of what they actually are. You're wrong. You may feel better about yourself by changing the subject to the manner in which I prove you wrong instead of actually admitting it. But you're still wrong. You just save a little face in front of the other people here who are content in their delusion. So you can all pat each other on the back about how you're "in the know" about the big bad profit-mongering medical community and everyone else is just fooling themselves if it makes you feel better about yourself. But I'm here, telling anyone who cares about the facts, that if you take these cock-and-bull holistic measures to deal with serious medical conditions, such as gallstones, you're going to wind up very sick, and in some cases very dead.

You didn't back up your claims with anything.

1. An ingested Dessicant is responsible for these stones

2. Olive oil is used to contribute mass/texture/color and to stimulate the gallbladder to release bile into the duodenum, thus to introduce bile and "gallbladder parasites" into the intestine and therefore the "stone" constructed there.

3. Lemon juice is used as a catalyst for the epsom salts

Once again, you won't address why some people don't use ES and still get stones.

Read:

http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=476&i=1361

http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=447&i=28115

No Epsom salts there.

But I suppose you will believe that these people are just making it up -- that they really did use ES? Or they didn't actually get stones? The first story alone is enough evidence for me that the flush is real. These people are not selling anything, so what is their motivation other than to help people by telling their true stories?

4. The bile duct is physically not capable of passing these stones. A look at a cross-section of one demonstrates what a laughable idea this is.

5. Gallstones are uncommon. Only a small percentage of people have them at all. Practically no one has them before their mid twenties to thirties.

6. Gallstones don't impair gallbladder or liver function

To all of those statements: how do you know?

9. Claims of herbs or epsom salts softening or breaking up the stones are absurd. Strong corrosives and targeted sonic vibrations can only break up very small ones.

10. Claims of epsom salts relaxing the bile ducts are bull. We know that magnesium sulfate does not have this effect. It's entirely made up.

Again, how do you know?

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I didn't use any epsom salts at all for about 9 flushes and still got out hundreds and hundreds of cholesterol balls (I don't like to call them stones as they aren't calcified). The flush at sensiblehealth doesn't require epsom salts, either.

Of course I only flush once or twice a year now anyway....

I'm not sure how gallstones wouldn't impair gallbladder function. That's like saying the aorta doesn't effect heart function. But hey, what do I know? :doh::think::wacko:

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Ignore him.

Oh my goodness...I saw THAT response to Melek coming, a mile away! :)

Before other forum readers here are persuaded to march like lemmings and jump off the "liver-flush" cliff, I strongly suggest that they listen to what Melek has said about the claims being made for this excruciatingly oddball treatment. If anyone is ever hurt in some way by trying it, they certainly won't have HIM to blame.

Bryan

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Ignore him.

Oh my goodness...I saw THAT response to Melek coming, a mile away! :)

Before other forum readers here are persuaded to march like lemmings and jump off the "liver-flush" cliff, I strongly suggest that they listen to what Melek has said about the claims being made for this excruciatingly oddball treatment. If anyone is ever hurt in some way by trying it, they certainly won't have HIM to blame.

Bryan

Perhaps the anti-flushing zealots would NOT be ignored if they were more respectful and engaged in dialogue that wasn't laced with insults, mocking, and outright lies.

It's hard to hear what someone is saying when they engage others in a derogatory fashion.

Besides that, I'm clear and didn't have to go on Accutane. Yeah, that did me lots of harm....... :shifty::shock::think:

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First: I did address the "salt-less" flushes. Read the thread. By the way, did you know there's an all natural suppliment that makes your penis grow three inches in a week? It's amazing. There's all these positive reviews saying it does just what it promises.

Second and Third: The fact that I'm not an idiot and I actually have the capability of reading texts on human physiology as well as medical studies and treatments for gallstones. But what can I say. I'm at an advantage in this situation because Huked on Fonix Wurked Fir Me!

I'm not respectful because people are repeatedly proving just how stupid they are. Hoppy lost respect when he insulted me directly for telling you that this was bunk. The rest of you lost respect when you completely skipped over the scientific evidence I presented on page one and went to the "But it works! Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah I can't hear you" position.

"It's hard to hear what someone is saying when they engage others in a derogatory fashion."

Because you assume that I don't already know long division, teacher... I feel patronized and therefore refuse to learn long division to spite you!

Have I promoted accutane in this discussion?

Frankly Im getting sick of explaining this over and over again to people who don't want to know the truth. So my attitude has changed from nicely helping you understand the science that seemed to evade you to beating you over the head when you say something stupid... the way a cathlic schoolmarm might... but I get to laugh at you too. Everybody wins.

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First: I did address the "salt-less" flushes. Read the thread. By the way, did you know there's an all natural suppliment that makes your penis grow three inches in a week? It's amazing. There's all these positive reviews saying it does just what it promises.

Second and Third: The fact that I'm not an idiot and I actually have the capability of reading texts on human physiology as well as medical studies and treatments for gallstones. But what can I say. I'm at an advantage in this situation because Huked on Fonix Wurked Fir Me!

I'm not respectful because people are repeatedly proving just how stupid they are. Hoppy lost respect when he insulted me directly for telling you that this was bunk. The rest of you lost respect when you completely skipped over the scientific evidence I presented on page one and went to the "But it works! Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah I can't hear you" position.

"It's hard to hear what someone is saying when they engage others in a derogatory fashion."

Because you assume that I don't already know long division, teacher... I feel patronized and therefore refuse to learn long division to spite you!

Have I promoted accutane in this discussion?

Frankly Im getting sick of explaining this over and over again to people who don't want to know the truth. So my attitude has changed from nicely helping you understand the science that seemed to evade you to beating you over the head when you say something stupid... the way a cathlic schoolmarm might... but I get to laugh at you too. Everybody wins.

People you should really listen to Melek. While i was reading this thread, a feeling of frustration built up inside of me. The same feeling Melek expressed in his last post. I have a BSc in chemistry and it amazes me how you all guys coonfront yourself with an incredibly interesting condition like acne without any scientific background. I advise you to read a basic textbook about animal metabolism. Especially since most of you are interested in holistic methods like nutrition. This is just an advise. I am very proud of the people here that make huge sacrifice controlling their nutrition. If you are one of them, you know how hard it is, and i am sure you would be capable of reading a textbook to get some deeper scientific background.

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