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whats a liver flush?

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What's a liver flush? someone directed me to this section to even out my skin tone i.e. pink pigment

cheers

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A liver flush is someting that cleans out your liver....there are a lot of ways to do one, heres the one that I did...

"In the morning drink:

one cup fresh orange or grapefruit juice with

1 Tab of olive oil

1/2 lemon

cayenne pepper to tolerance

at least two cloves of fresh garlic

1/2 hour after drinking this drink drink a cup of fennel or fenugreek tes

Don't est anything elst till noon and then eat only raw or steamed vegetables or fruit. Drink lots of water at least eight 8oz glasses. Continue eating eaw or steamed vegetables and/or fruit the reat of the day"

I did that for 7 days, the drink is really bad :eusa_sick: but if you cut up the garlic first and swallow it right before the drink then its not so bad. Also people say to do somehting before and after a liver flush (something to do with stones I think) I never did it and it worked for me....but to be on the safe side I think that it would be good for you to look in to it (whatever it is) if you want to do a lver flush. When I did the flush my skin did get better, my red marks faded some and my over all skin tone looked better

I hope that this helped

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A liver flush is someting that cleans out your liver....there are a lot of ways to do one, heres the one that I did...

"In the morning drink:

one cup fresh orange or grapefruit juice with

1 Tab of olive oil

1/2 lemon

cayenne pepper to tolerance

at least two cloves of fresh garlic

1/2 hour after drinking this drink drink a cup of fennel or fenugreek tes

Don't est anything elst till noon and then eat only raw or steamed vegetables or fruit. Drink lots of water at least eight 8oz glasses. Continue eating eaw or steamed vegetables and/or fruit the reat of the day"

I did that for 7 days, the drink is really bad :eusa_sick: but if you cut up the garlic first and swallow it right before the drink then its not so bad. Also people say to do somehting before and after a liver flush (something to do with stones I think) I never did it and it worked for me....but to be on the safe side I think that it would be good for you to look in to it (whatever it is) if you want to do a lver flush. When I did the flush my skin did get better, my red marks faded some and my over all skin tone looked better

I hope that this helped

Whats "1 Tab of olive oil" ?

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I've been juicing 5 or 6 whole carrots, 1 cucumber, and juicing some ginger and drinking that. Plus drinking hot lemon water to cleanse my liver.

I dont know if this is the thing that is helping my skin but my pimples are gone and I just have red marks :)

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Whats "1 Tab of olive oil" ?

hummm sorry about that 1 "Tab" is 1 Tablespoon

how come so little oil ? and you got stones out ? all the flushes recipes i see have around 1/2 a cup of olive oil.

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I realy don't know why the little amout of oil. This flush is something my dad gave me (he's a doc.) he said that its the best one that he knows about. I did not get any stones out (I don't think) I've heard that when you do a flush with a lot of oil in it, its not really stones that you get out, its heard oil....I don't know if that is true or not, just something that I've heard...as you might be able to tell I don't know much about liver flushing but this is just one thing that I've done and I saw some inprovement on my skin

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Guest mishmosh

I think american tablespoons are smaller than Britisho ones.

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A liver flush is someting that cleans out your liver....

Oh my god, I must have died and gone to Health-Food-Hype-Hell!! :D

For an amusing and SCIENTIFIC analysis of so-called "liver flushes" by a true medical professional, see the following link:

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/10/bett...ask-eneman.html

Bryan

Bryan that guy is as stupid and ignorant as you are...

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A liver flush is someting that cleans out your liver....

Oh my god, I must have died and gone to Health-Food-Hype-Hell!! :D

For an amusing and SCIENTIFIC analysis of so-called "liver flushes" by a true medical professional, see the following link:

http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/10/bett...ask-eneman.html

Bryan

Bryan that guy is as stupid and ignorant as you are...

Aww....Bryan I still like ya......

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so a liver flush does not clean out the liver? It might not be scientific sounding or anything, but in the end is that not what it does? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but that is all ways what I've thought....am I really that off? :doh:

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Guest Tinky

I have also heard that the "stones" passed aren't really anything more than the acid in the lemon juice

reacting with the oil.... :think:

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so a liver flush does not clean out the liver? It might not be scientific sounding or anything, but in the end is that not what it does? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but that is all ways what I've thought....am I really that off? :doh:

A liver flush is supposed to clean out the toxins in the liver. I have a hard time buying into it really. I think there are ways to support healthy liver function, but I can't imagine drinking a half cup of oil would be benificial to your liver. (Not tyring to start any fights here). I don't think those stones are really toxins from the liver. They are most likely a product of saponiofcation (forms a saop like material), that occurs when the oleic acid from the oil combines with the postassium from the juice (citrus juices contain lots of potassium).....that link bryan posted was actually pretty interesting...

Your fathers version is what's considered to be a "slow flush" is proabably safer than drinking a half cup of oil and ingesting magnesium sulfate......but what do I know?

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Guest Tinky

I don't think those stones are really toxins from the liver. They are most likely a product of saponiofcation (forms a saop like material), that occurs when the oleic acid from the oil combines with the postassium from the juice (citrus juices contain lots of potassium).....

This seems to be what I read about too!!! But I couldn't remember what it was called. Thanks!!!

( I think you are right, BTW ;) )

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I don't think those stones are really toxins from the liver. They are most likely a product of saponiofcation (forms a saop like material), that occurs when the oleic acid from the oil combines with the postassium from the juice (citrus juices contain lots of potassium)...

Exactly. The fact that those "stones" from that patient were TOTALLY lacking in the normal characteristics of real gallstones is a convincing blow to this goofy theory of "liver flushing". "Gallstones", my foot! (I was about to say "gallstones, my ass", which would perhaps be more appropriate in this context, but I would NEVER stoop to such bathroom humor! :razz:)

You know, those "soap-stones" (which is kinda what they really are) might actually be fairly decent cleansers in their own right! Considering the strong tendency toward "natural" products on this site, one can imagine the idea getting started around here that the best way to wash your face is with this "natural soap" from your colon! Maybe somebody will form a company called Uranus Corporation, and start mass-producing this stuff and selling it to acne.org readers. Just think of the advertising banner they could have: "Colon-Cleanser, the Natural Soap from.....Uranus" (yes, that's right: that last word is to be clearly pronounced ur-AY-nuss).

Oh, alright, I'll admit it: I stole that idea from the 1974 movie The Groove Tube! :cool:

Bryan

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Exactly. The fact that those "stones" from that patient were TOTALLY lacking in the normal characteristics of real gallstones is a convincing blow to this goofy theory of "liver flushing". "Gallstones", my foot! (I was about to say "gallstones, my ass", which would perhaps be more appropriate in this context, but I would NEVER stoop to such bathroom humor! )

Since you are so smart concerning what stones are and what they consist of, I'll GLADLY show post a link to autopsied gallbladders and their contents and anyone who has ever done a liverflush will gladly comment on whether ot not the autopsied stones look like what they pass during a flush.

***HINT***.....many of the photos contain contents from the gallbladder that look exactly like passed "stones". Technically, intrahepatic stones aren't calcified or hard like those that leave the gallbladder, therefore they aren't going to have a blackened appearance. However, most of them are bright green in color, because they are composed of bile pigments, cholesterol, and bilirubin.

Plenty of people, myself included have gotten clear from liverflushing. If you don't want to do them, that's fine. However, at least understand what you are talking about and for goodness' sakes, don't listen to allopathic doctors who are puppets for the pharmecuetical industry for information about clearing acne or liver flushes for that matter. They prescribed Vioxx and HRT for years which were tested in PLENTY of "double-blind studies" and yet were found to not only pose significant health risks, but are blamed for plenty of deaths as well. I could go on and on and on and on and on.

You know, those "soap-stones" (which is kinda what they really are) might actually be fairly decent cleansers in their own right! Considering the strong tendency toward "natural" products on this site, one can imagine the idea getting started around here that the best way to wash your face is with this "natural soap" from your colon! Maybe somebody will form a company called Uranus Corporation, and start mass-producing this stuff and selling it to acne.org readers. Just think of the advertising banner they could have: "Colon-Cleanser, the Natural Soap from.....Uranus" (yes, that's right: that last word is to be clearly pronounced ur-AY-nuss).

Oh, alright, I'll admit it: I stole that idea from the 1974 movie The Groove Tube!

Actually, saponification only happens under extremely strict, controlled, circumstances at high temperatures. Please come up with something better than this.

Many people on this site go "natural" because doctors and dermatologists couldn't help them and they are at the end of their rope.

http://www.sensiblehealth.com/

http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/GallstonePictures.html

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I did a liver flush, in fact I did 3. My skin looked amazing afterwards. Slowely my skin got back to normal though, apparently this is due to more stones moving down to block the liver/gall bladder again.

After the 4th attempt nothing came out - bizarre. Now I've got my amalgam fillings removed (search for mercury poisoning) I have been passing them normally.

The liver detoxifies the body and seems to be directly linked to the health of your skin.

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Guest Tinky

Now I've got my amalgam fillings removed (search for mercury poisoning)

I have actually talked to my dentist about this!!! I think he thinks I'm nuts to want them replaced, I think

it's about time for a new dentist ;) I only have a few, so I'm thinking maybe replacing one every six months

or as budget allows.

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Since you are so smart concerning what stones are and what they consist of, I'll GLADLY show post a link to autopsied gallbladders and their contents and anyone who has ever done a liverflush will gladly comment on whether ot not the autopsied stones look like what they pass during a flush.

Oh, is THAT all you have to hang your hat on, Denise? Just the appearance of the "stones"?

***HINT***.....many of the photos contain contents from the gallbladder that look exactly like passed "stones". Technically, intrahepatic stones aren't calcified or hard like those that leave the gallbladder, therefore they aren't going to have a blackened appearance. However, most of them are bright green in color, because they are composed of bile pigments, cholesterol, and bilirubin.

And your response to the fact that the analyzed stones from that patient "contained no cholesterol, bilirubin, or calcium by established wet chemical methods" is....?

Plenty of people, myself included have gotten clear from liverflushing.

LOTS of weird anecdotal claims have been made on this site, including both what supposedly causes acne, and what supposedly clears it. I have a rather jaundiced attitude toward such anecdotes. I have far more confidence in what's reported in the medical literature.

Actually, saponification only happens under extremely strict, controlled, circumstances at high temperatures.

That was the actual conclusion of those docs: saponification is what caused those "soap-stones". Are you saying they don't really understand the requirements for that to occur? :)

Bryan

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Since you are so smart concerning what stones are and what they consist of, I'll GLADLY show post a link to autopsied gallbladders and their contents and anyone who has ever done a liverflush will gladly comment on whether ot not the autopsied stones look like what they pass during a flush.

Oh, is THAT all you have to hang your hat on, Denise? Just the appearance of the "stones"?

Nope. I've got lab reports (which you didn't comment on), I've got folks who have had ultrasounds showing stones then after flushing, no stones.....and tons and tons of reports of healed gallbladders, no more gallbladder attacks, no more acne, no more oily skin, better digestion, etc...

QUOTE

***HINT***.....many of the photos contain contents from the gallbladder that look exactly like passed "stones". Technically, intrahepatic stones aren't calcified or hard like those that leave the gallbladder, therefore they aren't going to have a blackened appearance. However, most of them are bright green in color, because they are composed of bile pigments, cholesterol, and bilirubin.

And your response to the fact that the analyzed stones from that patient "contained no cholesterol, bilirubin, or calcium by established wet chemical methods" is....?

My response is that there are plenty of other lab reports, ultrasounds, etc...the conclude otherwise. Who am I gonna believe? What worked for me and countless others, of course.

QUOTE

Plenty of people, myself included have gotten clear from liverflushing.

LOTS of weird anecdotal claims have been made on this site, including both what supposedly causes acne, and what supposedly clears it. I have a rather jaundiced attitude toward such anecdotes. I have far more confidence in what's reported in the medical literature.

No offense but folks like yourself come and go on this site all the time. It doesn't matter what you or anyone else says. People are still going to do flushes, cleanse, detoxes, etc...... If people had derms and doctors that ACTUALLY HELPED THEM, they most certainly wouldn't research this topic out for themselves and come to conclude that doctors with their years of medical school don't know what the heck they are talking about.

QUOTE

Actually, saponification only happens under extremely strict, controlled, circumstances at high temperatures.

That was the actual conclusion of those docs: saponification is what caused those "soap-stones". Are you saying they don't really understand the requirements for that to occur?

Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that saponfication only happens at very high temperatures and in a very controlled fashion. Ever make soap? What does it take for a liquid like oil to harden? Look up soap making and you'll find out. It doesn't happen at random by throwing some ingredients together.

Besides.....people stop passing "stones" or "cholesterol balls" or whatever you want to call them after they become better. For example, I don't do flushes except for maintenance maybe once or twice a year now. I have done flushes where I didn't pass ANYTHING. So let's see.....the acne is gone.....and the stones are gone. Gee...what a coincidence!!!!!!!! :doh::dance:

Gee...what happened to the "soap" when I drank all that oil oil and I didn't pass anything at all?....

And....people have taken an acid and a fat and passed stones with that. A guy who used to post here did a berry and cream flush and passed stones....no oil involved.

But like I said....no one really cares about your mocking. They will continue to seek answers...answers that doctors OBVIOUSLY don't have. And they have found their answers. That's really all they care about.

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Since you are so smart concerning what stones are and what they consist of, I'll GLADLY show post a link to autopsied gallbladders and their contents and anyone who has ever done a liverflush will gladly comment on whether ot not the autopsied stones look like what they pass during a flush.

Oh, is THAT all you have to hang your hat on, Denise? Just the appearance of the "stones"?

Nope. I've got lab reports (which you didn't comment on)...

You apparently don't have lab REPORTS (plural), you have a lab REPORT (singular). That one report you posted was interesting, but do you have any others to back it up? Any corroborating evidence?

I've got folks who have had ultrasounds showing stones then after flushing, no stones.....and tons and tons of reports of healed gallbladders, no more gallbladder attacks, no more acne, no more oily skin, better digestion, etc...

And yet the doctor at the link I posted complained that despite such claims from lay people, no studies at all have ever been published in peer-reviewed medical journals documenting such effects. Now WHY is that?? :think:

No offense but folks like yourself come and go on this site all the time. It doesn't matter what you or anyone else says. People are still going to do flushes, cleanse, detoxes, etc...... If people had derms and doctors that ACTUALLY HELPED THEM, they most certainly wouldn't research this topic out for themselves and come to conclude that doctors with their years of medical school don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Oh, I see: because doctors are confronted by a medical condition which is difficult even for THEM to control in some patients (acne), that must mean that they "don't know what the heck they're talking about", and it's time to break out the goofy health-food store alternative treatments. Uh-huh.

Actually, saponification only happens under extremely strict, controlled, circumstances at high temperatures.

I personally am not familiar with the techniques of soap making, but I do have an acquaintance who is. I sent him your statement above, and here is his response. He seems to take some issue with what you said:

"Cold processing is used more often by homemade soap makers than hot processing. Alot of homemade soaps that you typically see being sold on the internet were made using the cold process method. You do have to heat up the water and oil separately to about 100 degrees F. but you don't have to be exact. I do it by feel.

"Cold processed soap takes 4-6 weeks to cure. That's too long for some people to wait. I'm one of those impatient types so I hot process my soaps. It's more time consuming but you get soap within a couple of hours.

"I have to be honest with you though, cold processed soap actually ends up superior than most of my hot processed soap. Something about that 4-6 week cold curing period that makes cold processed soap more like a "fine wine".

"From what I know about soap making, the post you quoted doesn't 'jive' with my experience. There's really nothing 'special' about the chemical reaction between water, lye and oil IMHO. The ratios between those three ingredients can be found in many recipes. Plus, you can vary your recipes (i.e., within reason). You don't have to be 'exact' but you do have to pay attention to the ratios.

"So your poster is correct when she says, in so many words, that you can't be careless with the ingredient mixes or you can end up with separated ingredients. (But this isn't a hard requirement to meet IMHO. Just pay attention to your recipe.)"

That was the actual conclusion of those docs: saponification is what caused those "soap-stones". Are you saying they don't really understand the requirements for that to occur?

Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying.

Obviously you didn't understand what _I_ said. Let's try it again: those docs seemed to think that sponification was a reasonable explanation for those soap-stones found in that patient. I ask you again: are you accusing those docs of not really understanding what it takes to make soap? ;)

Besides.....people stop passing "stones" or "cholesterol balls" or whatever you want to call them after they become better. For example, I don't do flushes except for maintenance maybe once or twice a year now. I have done flushes where I didn't pass ANYTHING. So let's see.....the acne is gone.....and the stones are gone. Gee...what a coincidence!!!!!!!! :doh::dance:

Gee...what happened to the "soap" when I drank all that oil oil and I didn't pass anything at all?....

What was interesting to me about what my friend said (the soap-maker) is the TIME-DELAY inherent in the "cold process" of saponification. There are probably a number of different reasons which might explain your lack of results on some of those occasions, one of which might have to do with the amount of time required for the soap-stones to form, or a problem with the exact kinds and/or amounts of the material you swallowed. All of this is speculative, of course, but nevertheless I'm sure there are sound scientific reasons to explain it, even if we don't know exactly what they are.

But like I said....no one really cares about your mocking. They will continue to seek answers...answers that doctors OBVIOUSLY don't have. And they have found their answers. That's really all they care about.

I guess that makes us even. I will continue to post commentaries about the oddball claims that I see on this site! ;)

Bryan

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QUOTE(Denise2 @ Nov 5 2005, 08:38 PM)

QUOTE

Since you are so smart concerning what stones are and what they consist of, I'll GLADLY show post a link to autopsied gallbladders and their contents and anyone who has ever done a liverflush will gladly comment on whether ot not the autopsied stones look like what they pass during a flush.

Oh, is THAT all you have to hang your hat on, Denise? Just the appearance of the "stones"?

Nope. I've got lab reports (which you didn't comment on)...

You apparently don't have lab REPORTS (plural), you have a lab REPORT (singular). That one report you posted was interesting, but do you have any others to back it up? Any corroborating evidence?

I have many reports of people who are under a doctor's care have ultrasounds proving that they are passing stones...even gallstones, not just intrahepatic stones. They don't post on this site as they aren't fighting acne, they are fighting gallbladder attacks.

QUOTE

I've got folks who have had ultrasounds showing stones then after flushing, no stones.....and tons and tons of reports of healed gallbladders, no more gallbladder attacks, no more acne, no more oily skin, better digestion, etc...

And yet the doctor at the link I posted complained that despite such claims from lay people, no studies at all have ever been published in peer-reviewed medical journals documenting such effects. Now WHY is that??

QUOTE

No offense but folks like yourself come and go on this site all the time. It doesn't matter what you or anyone else says. People are still going to do flushes, cleanse, detoxes, etc...... If people had derms and doctors that ACTUALLY HELPED THEM, they most certainly wouldn't research this topic out for themselves and come to conclude that doctors with their years of medical school don't know what the heck they are talking about.

Oh, I see: because doctors are confronted by a medical condition which is difficult even for THEM to control in some patients (acne), that must mean that they "don't know what the heck they're talking about", and it's time to break out the goofy health-food store alternative treatments. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh is right. Folks who go on three rounds of Accutane magically get cured by liverflushing, bowel cleansing, detoxing heavy metals, etc......Not that the doctors know what they heck they are doing or anything.....

QUOTE

Actually, saponification only happens under extremely strict, controlled, circumstances at high temperatures.

I personally am not familiar with the techniques of soap making, but I do have an acquaintance who is. I sent him your statement above, and here is his response. He seems to take some issue with what you said:

"Cold processing is used more often by homemade soap makers than hot processing. Alot of homemade soaps that you typically see being sold on the internet were made using the cold process method. You do have to heat up the water and oil separately to about 100 degrees F. but you don't have to be exact. I do it by feel.

"Cold processed soap takes 4-6 weeks to cure. That's too long for some people to wait. I'm one of those impatient types so I hot process my soaps. It's more time consuming but you get soap within a couple of hours.

"I have to be honest with you though, cold processed soap actually ends up superior than most of my hot processed soap. Something about that 4-6 week cold curing period that makes cold processed soap more like a "fine wine".

"From what I know about soap making, the post you quoted doesn't 'jive' with my experience. There's really nothing 'special' about the chemical reaction between water, lye and oil IMHO. The ratios between those three ingredients can be found in many recipes. Plus, you can vary your recipes (i.e., within reason). You don't have to be 'exact' but you do have to pay attention to the ratios.

"So your poster is correct when she says, in so many words, that you can't be careless with the ingredient mixes or you can end up with separated ingredients. (But this isn't a hard requirement to meet IMHO. Just pay attention to your recipe.)"

QUOTE

QUOTE

That was the actual conclusion of those docs: saponification is what caused those "soap-stones". Are you saying they don't really understand the requirements for that to occur?

-Saponfication ONLY occurs when LYE is added to an oil/fat.

-Oil doesn't randomly harden when mixed with an acid. If that was true, then oil and vinegar dressings would harden.

-I'm saying that I don't believe that doctors don't understand what causes acne, much less what causes saponfication, that would be correct. At least they don't seem to.

Obviously you don't understand what I'm saying.

Obviously you didn't understand what _I_ said. Let's try it again: those docs seemed to think that sponification was a reasonable explanation for those soap-stones found in that patient. I ask you again: are you accusing those docs of not really understanding what it takes to make soap?

Is lye being added to the oil and acid mixture to cause "soap"?

QUOTE

Besides.....people stop passing "stones" or "cholesterol balls" or whatever you want to call them after they become better. For example, I don't do flushes except for maintenance maybe once or twice a year now. I have done flushes where I didn't pass ANYTHING. So let's see.....the acne is gone.....and the stones are gone. Gee...what a coincidence!!!!!!!!

Gee...what happened to the "soap" when I drank all that oil oil and I didn't pass anything at all?....

What was interesting to me about what my friend said (the soap-maker) is the TIME-DELAY inherent in the "cold process" of saponification. There are probably a number of different reasons which might explain your lack of results on some of those occasions, one of which might have to do with the amount of time required for the soap-stones to form, or a problem with the exact kinds and/or amounts of the material you swallowed. All of this is speculative, of course, but nevertheless I'm sure there are sound scientific reasons to explain it, even if we don't know exactly what they are.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurnt. Wrong answer. I do the same thing ever time. The flush recipes are very precise with taking ingredients at certain times. Besides, there is no 2 week time delay for the "cold processed flush method". Most folks drink the mixture at 10 p.m. and wake up passing stones, or....they pass them all day into the evening. We are talking about 8 hours, maybe 12 lapse time. We surely aren't talking about weeks passing, that is for certain. I didn't mention the cold process method of making soap because it's not even applicable to what we are talking about. We aren't talking about 2 weeks' lapse time. We are only talking about several hours.

However, I cleared up and I didn't pass anymore stones after I cleared. No coincidence. Happens with most people who clear up (*if* their liver was congested and there aren't other things that they aren't doing to clear themselves). They stop passing stones. Gee, what a coincidence.

QUOTE

But like I said....no one really cares about your mocking. They will continue to seek answers...answers that doctors OBVIOUSLY don't have. And they have found their answers. That's really all they care about.

I guess that makes us even. I will continue to post commentaries about the oddball claims that I see on this site!

Bryan

If you are here on the holistic board to gain a cult following, it probably won't work. We've had others and they were pretty much ignored. Too many people ignore their doctors and find the root cause of their acne because their doctors almost killed them with Accutane or gave them no hope of curing their skin problems. At least with my 12 year old son who inherited the ole family acne gene, I can keep him clear and not poison him with antibiotics or Accutane. I wish my mother had known what I know, or I probably wouldn't be undergoing scar revision techniques no thanks to the doctors who really screwed me up by putting me on antibiotics for 11 years straight.

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Gee...what happened to the "soap" when I drank all that oil oil and I didn't pass anything at all?....

What was interesting to me about what my friend said (the soap-maker) is the TIME-DELAY inherent in the "cold process" of saponification. There are probably a number of different reasons which might explain your lack of results on some of those occasions, one of which might have to do with the amount of time required for the soap-stones to form, or a problem with the exact kinds and/or amounts of the material you swallowed. All of this is speculative, of course, but nevertheless I'm sure there are sound scientific reasons to explain it, even if we don't know exactly what they are.

Hmmm...interesting. Maybe that's why many first time flushers don't pass any "stones." They haven't formed yet. And yes...saponification can occur at temperatures as low as 85 degrees, depending on the system. Saponification is a term used to describe any reaction envolving a free fatty acid, or more commonly a triglyceride, and a base, leaving a salt of a fatty acid (a soap). This liver stone thing is actually a source of much debate it seems....

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Guest Cubsfan

doctors...they can be so intelligent yet so dumb.

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