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Colonel Angus

Needling made scar worse?

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Has anyone had needling done that made your scars worse? I was wondering cause I talked to a tattoo guy and he said if you needled your skin with a tattoo gun it would actually leave scars. I know he was referring to normal skin but a shallow patch of skin could be called a scar but is very much like normal skin. What do you guys think?

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Possibly he meant hyperpigmented scarring, but not a indented scar if done properly...

when I had it done, my scars looked a bit bigger for about 4-5 days, then actually looked slightly smaller after

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Possibly he meant hyperpigmented scarring, but not a indented scar if done properly...

when I had it done, my scars looked a bit bigger for about 4-5 days, then actually looked slightly smaller after

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I found something on another forum that seems to pertain to the topic of this strand. It's written by Frank at Transitions and the Dr. who began needling:

In response to Does Needling work?

Isn't it just crazy how needling offers positive initial results. Well, the initial reports are always positive because of postinflamatory reaction to minuscule penetrations. It takes time for the collagen to develop and mature and that's depending on how invasive the service was. And it is possible that what you saw at 12 months will be less impressive than what you saw at 6 months. I have never heard of "no improvement" using our system. Most scarring require repeated needling services. When collagen is developed, it is not any more temporary than existing collagen. And the service has to be effective to show results. There are lots of people out there using machines that know tattooing, however this is not tattooing. Like with any other skin system (laser, peels, dermabrasion) there have been lots of negative incidents and insignificant results. Let's also remember how many services are required by any skin profession before you see results.

The following is a letter I received from Dr. Des Fernandes with his views.

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Dear Frank,

Sorry that I have taken so long to reply. I have been to Japan, Singapore, Poland and Germany since your wrote this letter talking about needling.

Thanks for telling me what you know about trepination. I have seen patients who have been treated with the needles rupturing right through the dermis. This causes a lot of scarring and delayed healing. I prefer to penetrate only to about 3mm at maximum and if one does it that deeply then you cannot have the density of holes that is usual with the tattoo machine. That is the essential difference between trepination and percutaneous collagen induction. PCI should not do any more damage to the skin than a simple tattoo. However, we have to realize that if one did the deeper needling at the density of a tattoo, then the skin would be scarified, and sure one would get a lot of collagen (in the form of scar tissue) and not a restoration of the complex elastin and collagen network which we aim to achieve with needling.

Yes, the important point is that very many people can be helped by their tattoo artists and get better results than from expensive lasers. However, deeper scars need greater penetration with the needle. Even if the extra needling is done by hand with a single needle, this is well worthwhile doing.

Use the cross weave pattern in the same way.

As to whether you are legally entitled to treat with these tools (Roll-cit)? I cannot answer that question. No doubt you have the expertise and experience

Kind wishes,Des

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We have the same views on lots of stuff. Especially that the skin has to be penetrated fairly deep and not with a machine. Machines are somewhat effective at shallow depths and to cover large areas if done lightly. We use the hand tools to penetrate deeper without creating the potential of maturating or hyperpigmentation.

Now ask, If a system didn't work, how was it done? How many passes? Needle configuration? How many services did they have? And, do these people really know what they're doing?? I would expect that there would be some non positive results with needling. I recently saw a post on a board suggesting that my site be printed and taken to a permanent makeup technician so she can perform the service. I don't think this one will get good results. If done properly, needling works.

Best Wishes,

Frank

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Carol, I think you are in capable hands with Lillian, as I've seen her mentioned by a number of individuals here - she's clearly very familiar with the best techniques to use.

Any procedure carries a potential for negative outcomes. IMO, those who decide to press forward with any procedure should first weigh potential success (scars reduced) against potential failure (scars increased).

shyone

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Carol, I think you are in capable hands with Lillian, as I've seen her mentioned by a number of individuals here - she's clearly very familiar with the best techniques to use.

Any procedure carries a potential for negative outcomes.  IMO, those who decide to press forward with any procedure should first weigh potential success (scars reduced) against potential failure (scars increased).

shyone

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Carol, I think you are in capable hands with Lillian, as I've seen her mentioned by a number of individuals here - she's clearly very familiar with the best techniques to use.

Any procedure carries a potential for negative outcomes.  IMO, those who decide to press forward with any procedure should first weigh potential success (scars reduced) against potential failure (scars increased).

shyone

Shyone,

I do feel I'm in good hands. It almost seemed like too fortunate a stroke that this midwestern girl could get to LBN on the east coast without too much inconvenience.

I am having all of my scars treated, which makes me nervous, but Lilian's done this many times before. I'm nervous about the pain, but I've suffered through childbirth with only a local and migraines with narcotics that only dimmed the pain. Certainly needling will be no worse.

Yes, I want results, but I definately don't want more damage. However, I feel comfortable, for the most part, with the whole thing. Denise says her improvement is from 90 to 100%. I won't count on that much improvement, but won't discount it either. Like Colin, I did self-needle, though I only did one scar. I wanted to see how my skin would respond. I selected one that is bigger and deeper that I tried with TCA cross. It did not respond to the TCA cross. I only put the needle in about 6 to 8 times. It didn't bleed, nor turn red, but it did fluff up. That may just be that swelling that is talked about. However, the texture on the top is much improved; I see lines crossing the top layer where there were none before. What I learned was that my skin didn't seem to respond negatively to the needle. That's what I wanted to know. I know my test is far from perfect, but it gave me some peace of mind. And I don't want to say to myself later "Should have, could have tried something." So, I proceed....

I'll post again Thursday.

With crossed fingers, (the other cross method).

Carol

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