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There's an interesting article here:

http://www.mercola.com/2003/dec/27/vitamin_d_quiz.htm

I suggest you take the test. It's really kinda interesting.

Basically their position is that death by vitamin D overdose is literally unheard of, a very, very large number of people in NA and europe simply don't get enough (as in about 40-50% of the population). Even multivitamin tablets only typically contain about 400 IU, whereas going out in the sun at midday can make about 50,000 IU(!!!!). Toxicity at up to a supplement of 1000 IU, even longterm, apparently isn't found anywhere in the literature. And they say that not going out in the sun (presumably at midday), will mean you *will* get vitamin D deficiency even if you take *twice* the RDA. I rarely go out in the sun at midday...

There has been a suggestion that atherosclerosis might be promoted by high vitamin D intake, but then again, heart attacks are more common in the winter... when vitamin D levels are depleted. And the logic they gave that it might trigger atherosclerosis seemed suspect to me- they said that muscles migrate to the blood vessels wall. Isn't extra muscle a good thing? It's the sclerosis that kills you- the oxidised fat.

And there's an intriguing link with the skin- apparently vitamin D suppresses hyperkeratinitis; one of the key things that happens with acne. (I think that's what they said, I can't find the link now)

And vitamin D deficiency seems to play a big part of Poly Cystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS), which is a cause of acne in women. See: http://www.ovarian-cysts-pcos.com/news15-pcos-acne.html. And they mention that vitamin D deficiency is linked to insulin resistance (presumably in men too), which if you buy the insulin-resistant skin theory could imply a relationship.

And the sunlight thing is interesting too. To get vitamin D you have to go out in the midday sun- it's produced by UV-B which is *only* present around that time. I personally don't go out in the midday sun much at all. YMMV.

I've also noticed that my acne tends to be worse at about this time of year, when presumably my skin hasn't seen too much sun for many months (I live in the UK, it rains a *lot*, hasn't this year though). Wondering whether there's a link. And there was that milk study- full cream milk gave almost no increase in acne, but skimmed milk did. But vitamin D is fat soluble so isn't present in skimmed milk... but is in full cream milk. But the levels aren't particularly high. And my skin seems to improve if I have a lot of tuna... which has a high level.

Hmmm. eusa_think.gif

Any thoughts? Could vitamin D deficiency be a problem for some people with acne? Could it even essentially cause it in some people?

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Okay, let's think logically at this for a while. It's midday always somewhere in the world. Does the sun discriminate it's UVB rays based on the time of day and only on certain parts of the earth? No.

There are always UVB rays. The only thing that varies is the thickness of the ozone layer(This filters out UVB rays, not UVA). This can vary in the time of day but you will always get UVB rays.

Also before everyone gets in a large organic rant as many oare known to do, ORGANIC sunblock doesn't mean the same as organic food. It only means sunblock has carbon, hydrogen, etc... It's not naturally produced. Also this sunblock rarely filter out UVA rays, the ones that are most likely to give you cancer and wrinkles(UVB gives you sunburn and faster skin damage).

Organic sunblock also has the ingerdients Benzophenone (Oxybenzone) and PABA.

The more effective sunblock, INORGANIC, blocks UVA rays. The best ingredient is zinc oxide(At least look for oxide in the ingredients).

Most sunblocks, despite what they say only offer very low protection against UVA rays. You want something that says broad spectrum or has zinc oxide in it.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you are out in the sun at anytime of the day you will get UVB rays(Even if it's cloudy all though not as much) and I would consider you for a Darwin award if you make it a habit to go out between 10-2 without sunblock.

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Okay, let's think logically at this for a while. It's midday always somewhere in the world. Does the sun discriminate it's UVB rays based on the time of day and only on certain parts of the earth? No.

There are always UVB rays. The only thing that varies is the thickness of the ozone layer(This filters out UVB rays, not UVA). This can vary in the time of day but you will always get UVB rays.

...

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you are out in the sun at anytime of the day you will get UVB rays(Even if it's cloudy all though not as much)

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Given the comparative acnegenic properties of skimmed milk versus full cream milk, do you think that full cream milk is a nutritionally viable alternative, especially with regard to saturated fat and other health implications? I have eliminated milk altogether from my diet because of breakout fears, but if full cream milk is neutral in its effect on acne then I would like to reintroduce it into my diet.

What exactly does the study mean by full cream milk-- is this as in "2%"?

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There still are UVB rays. There will always be UVB rays because nothing can completely block them. I said clouds and whatnot can stop them(Ozone too) but not completely. I've been snowboarding on a cloudy day in the morning and have gotten a slight burn. Explain(I burn easily and UVB are respsonsible for burns)? Yes high altitude but not very sunny and certainly the wrong angle as you said.

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Given the comparative acnegenic properties of skimmed milk versus full cream milk, do you think that full cream milk is a nutritionally viable alternative, especially with regard to saturated fat and other health implications?

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I've been snowboarding on a cloudy day in the morning and have gotten a slight burn. Explain(I burn easily and UVB are respsonsible for burns)? Yes high altitude but not very sunny and certainly the wrong angle as you said.

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Anywhere that there is snowboarding is going to have a latitude that doesn't get near as much rays as the equator. Around Banff, Canada. The time was end of January. Yes I know about reflected light on the snow, I always wear sunscreen now when I go. Anyway, it was cloudy, the snowclouds(Forget the real name), are very white and not dark but thick as hell and trust me when they form they are as good as dark clouds, it's very eerie.

Doesn't really matter anyway how much UVB I got, it was enough to get burned and you're point was that there was NO UVB radiation during this time(Morning: 8am, hardly midday, I was backcountry so I wasn't as high as the other hills). I know that in the morning any UV radiation is lessened, even more so by clouds but that still doesn't throw out the fact that I got burned slightly by UVB(I quit once I realized what was happening).

We can dispute all these little facts but you can't say UVB is only present during midday.

Okay, I concede that UVA can cause burns but that's a minor argument as UVA is like 1000x less likely to burn you than UVB, it would have to be over a long period of time and is usually only common among constant suntanners who use block that only is effective against UVB. It causes more permanent damage to your skin whereas UVB is primarily responsible for burns.

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Paba,

Those are some VERY interesting sites. Thank you very much for the links!

Even with some deprogramming and the rationalized and informed belief that certain foods like full cream milk have no significant detrimental effects on my health, I can't help but feel otherwise if I'm chugging down a glass of full cream milk for breakfast!

Surely it can't be that healthy to drink full cream milk every day?

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Yes you are lucky then that you live in Switzerland because in most industrialized countries it is extremely difficult if not illegal to sell and therefore buy unpasteurized or "real" milk.

I have no choice but to consume commercial milk or none at all.

And as such I feel very reluctant to drink full cream milk from my grocery store and think that I might be better off just having a glass of orange juice or fresh-squeezed lemon juice in water along with my apple, oatmeal and 2 slices of toast for breakfast.

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I'm still tracking this vitamin-D stuff.

Even more interesting is that vitamin-d, get this, needs *retinoids* in order to go into an activated state... (See http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pat.../vitamind.html)

So, presumably, not only would retinoids like accutane dry your skin out, but it would also increase the activation of the vitamin-d which would tend to block the hyperproliferation of the keratinocytes in the pores (which are blocking the pores, and causing acne).

So, I'm seriously wondering whether it's just that, given that apparently most people are vitamin-d deficient most of the time, it's just that we, the most susceptible members show this deficiency by getting acne.

The only people who wouldn't get this are people like eskimos who eat lots of fatty food, or people on Atkins (vitamin-d is fat soluble...)

Dunno, it's all a bit too easy really. I mean, if it was this simple some doctor would have figured it out wouldn't they?

But perhaps vitamin-d deficiency causes acne, but correcting it doesn't reverse it very quickly. So, if it took a few months for the acne to die down, few clinical trials would last that long... so they would write off vitamin-d as a treatment, whereas vitamin A derivatives, by clearing out the pores immediately would give immediate relief and then activating the vitamin-d that there's likely to be cause the deproliferation of the keratinocytes and resolution of acne would kick in right behind this.

Hmm. It might make sense, but I'm not sure I believe it.

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I have never heard anything about Vitamin-D and acne being related. As a matter of fact, that is the ONLY vitamin I haven't heard questioned, but here we are.

It is quite possible that Vitamin-D could be the culprit. Also think about your skin being exposed to the sun. You sort of keep it strong by being out in the sun and getting a healthy tan. For all you folks out there, if you eat a healthy diet and are in the sun, you won't peel over and die. People have lived into their hundreds working in the great outdoors! Read "The Makers Diet". Great book.

Also, in America, you can get untreated milk, but it is hard. You pretty much gotta make friends with a farmer or something. I live in Dallas, so that is proving hard for me. There are cows everywhere but Dallas in this state, and most farmers aren't organic, but practically assembly line ranchers with the cattle. It is illegal to sell it in the stores as far as I know, but you can buy it direct from a farmer. There are co-ops and stuff, so you gotta get involved, but it can be worth it!

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OMG!

I think that's why I'm clearing up. Seriously, in the winter (I live in Canada) my acne just goes nuts. I eat a multivitamin everyday containing 400IU of vitamin D + milk (I think it's 88IUs for 1 cup). I still get tons of acne. Summer just hit here a couple days ago (around +20 celcius) and I work 8 hours a day outside in a nursery. I've worked two days so far, and I swear I have NO active acne what so ever on my face.

UVB rules.

Let's destroy the ozone layer so us people up north can get vitamin D too! haha

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OMG!

I think that's why I'm clearing up. Seriously, in the winter (I live in Canada) my acne just goes nuts. I eat a multivitamin everyday containing 400IU of vitamin D + milk (I think it's 88IUs for 1 cup). I still get tons of acne. Summer just hit here a couple days ago (around +20 celcius) and I work 8 hours a day outside in a nursery. I've worked two days so far, and I swear I have NO active acne what so ever on my face.

UVB rules.

Let's destroy the ozone layer so us people up north can get vitamin D too! haha

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Wolfkeeper, I find your vitamin d theory very interesting, but there's has been a finding in a recent scientific study, that doesn't support it.

It's from the following study:

J Am Acad Dermatol. 2005 Feb;52(2):207-14. Related Articles, Links 

 

High school dietary dairy intake and teenage acne.

Adebamowo CA, Spiegelman D, Danby FW, Frazier AL, Willett WC, Holmes MD.

Department of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Previous studies suggest possible associations between Western diet and acne. We examined data from the Nurses Health Study II to retrospectively evaluate whether intakes of dairy foods during high school were associated with physician-diagnosed severe teenage acne. METHODS: We studied 47,355 women who completed questionnaires on high school diet in 1998 and physician-diagnosed severe teenage acne in 1989. We estimated the prevalence ratios and 95% confidence intervals of acne history across categories of intakes. RESULTS: After accounting for age, age at menarche, body mass index, and energy intake, the multivariate prevalence ratio (95% confidence intervals; P value for test of trend) of acne, comparing extreme categories of intake, were: 1.22 (1.03, 1.44; .002) for total milk; 1.12 (1.00, 1.25; .56) for whole milk; 1.16 (1.01, 1.34; .25) for low-fat milk; and 1.44 (1.21, 1.72; .003) for skim milk. Instant breakfast drink, sherbet, cottage cheese, and cream cheese were also positively associated with acne. CONCLUSION: We found a positive association with acne for intake of total milk and skim milk. We hypothesize that the association with milk may be because of the presence of hormones and bioactive molecules in milk.

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We found positive associations with total vitamin D and vitamin D from supplements, and relatively weaker positive associations with vitamin D from foods. The active metabolite of vitamin D, 1α, 25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, plays an important role in epidermal differentiation by inhibiting the proliferation of keratinocytes while augmenting their differentiation.18 It positively interacts with testosterone's actions in several organs systems.19 Our result suggests that there may be an independent association with vitamin D intake from supplements. We also found positive associations with correlates of early sexual maturity such as BMI and age at onset of menarche, which is consistent with results of other studies.20 and 21

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I worked full time on a farm for four years. I had no acne then, of coure, I had none before then either. It wasn't until I went back to school=less time outside, that I developed acne. I always assumed it was stress and not eating as well, and I do think those things played key roles, but maybe it this had something to do with it as well.

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I worked full time on a farm for four years.  I had no acne then, of coure, I had none before then either.  It wasn't until I went back to school=less time outside, that I developed acne.  I always assumed it was stress and not eating as well, and I do think those things played key roles, but maybe it this had something to do with it as well.

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supposedly, as the tan fades, you're shedding dead skin cells, which we all know can cause acne if not shed properly. that's why they say you clear up after being in the sun, but afterwards, you get pimples. hey, back in the day, didn't they use extreme tanning as a way to combat acne? it could be because of that vitamin D. ( ofcourse, b4 knowledge of skin cancer from the sun)

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