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Catharsis2018

Lutronic Infini/Genius/eCo2 - Overhyped? / RANT!!!

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Hi guys.

My background (26F, mainly boxcar scars, skin type 3.5/4)

Soo... I recently saw a derm (i'm losing count of how many i've seen in the Toronto area). They had the Cutera Secret PRO (known as Fraxis Pro in USA) - basically a machine that does both eCo2 and RFM (RF microneedling) in the same session. As a religious lutronic kool aid drinker, I kept questioning if Genius RF was a more advanced machine and he told me that Lutronic machines are actually not that well made (apparently cutera machines are a lot more expensive) and that lutronic's genius is basically fixing a flaw that the Cutera Secret RF never had. Mind you, i've never even heard of Cutera before or the fraxis pro [Edited link out] - why is no one on the forum talking about this?

This got me critically thinking though. How was the decision made that lutronic devices are superior?  Is it because of the influence of questionable derms like Dr.Lim and Dr.Weiner? Or our once beloved BA? Were they able to say that with lutronic cheques in their pockets?

As someone whose done 3 Lutronic Infini RF sessions and one Lutronic eCo2 session (both had neglible results.) and so much research on acne scarring, it left me with serious trust issues.

Looking for people to throw their hats in. Basically sick of drinking the lutronic kool aid without any substantial evidence/data. 

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14 hours ago, Catharsis2018 said:

Hi guys.

My background (26F, mainly boxcar scars, skin type 3.5/4)

Soo... I recently saw a derm (i'm losing count of how many i've seen in the Toronto area). They had the Cutera Secret PRO (known as Fraxis Pro in USA) - basically a machine that does both eCo2 and RFM (RF microneedling) in the same session. As a religious lutronic kool aid drinker, I kept questioning if Genius RF was a more advanced machine and he told me that Lutronic machines are actually not that well made (apparently cutera machines are a lot more expensive) and that lutronic's genius is basically fixing a flaw that the Cutera Secret RF never had. Mind you, i've never even heard of Cutera before or the fraxis pro [Edited link out] - why is no one on the forum talking about this?

This got me critically thinking though. How was the decision made that lutronic devices are superior?  Is it because of the influence of questionable derms like Dr.Lim and Dr.Weiner? Or our once beloved BA? Were they able to say that with lutronic cheques in their pockets?

As someone whose done 3 Lutronic Infini RF sessions and one Lutronic eCo2 session (both had neglible results.) and so much research on acne scarring, it left me with serious trust issues.

Looking for people to throw their hats in. Basically sick of drinking the lutronic kool aid without any substantial evidence/data. 

Don't dwell on it too much. You did Infini three times and didn't see results. Try another treatment. Didn't see results from the CO2 procedure? Go to another doctor. A different CO2 device may yield more improvement. 

How about get a consultation from another doctor? That derm might be milking you as much as he/she can. Or you don't have the right scars for the device.

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14 hours ago, Catharsis2018 said:

Hi guys.

My background (26F, mainly boxcar scars, skin type 3.5/4)

Soo... I recently saw a derm (i'm losing count of how many i've seen in the Toronto area). They had the Cutera Secret PRO (known as Fraxis Pro in USA) - basically a machine that does both eCo2 and RFM (RF microneedling) in the same session. As a religious lutronic kool aid drinker, I kept questioning if Genius RF was a more advanced machine and he told me that Lutronic machines are actually not that well made (apparently cutera machines are a lot more expensive) and that lutronic's genius is basically fixing a flaw that the Cutera Secret RF never had. Mind you, i've never even heard of Cutera before or the fraxis pro [Edited link out] - why is no one on the forum talking about this?

This got me critically thinking though. How was the decision made that lutronic devices are superior?  Is it because of the influence of questionable derms like Dr.Lim and Dr.Weiner? Or our once beloved BA? Were they able to say that with lutronic cheques in their pockets?

As someone whose done 3 Lutronic Infini RF sessions and one Lutronic eCo2 session (both had neglible results.) and so much research on acne scarring, it left me with serious trust issues.

Looking for people to throw their hats in. Basically sick of drinking the lutronic kool aid without any substantial evidence/data. 

This may depend on your scar type and depth. I am researching a lot like you. Our skin is the same (IV). You may need more than one CO2 session. I also received 4 sessions of Scarlet RF treatment, but I can say that I have benefited maybe 5-10%. I'm disappointed too, but I'm going to research and talk to new doctors. Do not forget that the device is important and the experience of the doctor who does it is also very important. I'm just talking about my experiences. If you post a photo, more knowledgeable and experienced people can help you. Good luck.

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Davin Lim is a big champion for Infini Rf. But how many people have had success with it on here? Results seem to be very mixed. 

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On 3/7/2021 at 5:27 PM, Catharsis2018 said:

Soo... I recently saw a derm (i'm losing count of how many i've seen in the Toronto area). They had the Cutera Secret PRO (known as Fraxis Pro in USA) - basically a machine that does both eCo2 and RFM (RF microneedling) in the same session. As a religious lutronic kool aid drinker, I kept questioning if Genius RF was a more advanced machine and he told me that Lutronic machines are actually not that well made (apparently cutera machines are a lot more expensive) and that lutronic's genius is basically fixing a flaw that the Cutera Secret RF never had. Mind you, i've never even heard of Cutera before or the fraxis pro [Edited link out] - why is no one on the forum talking about this?

Well, other people have already covered this in the past. The key difference between Genius/Infini and Secret RF (and many others on the market) is that Genius/Infini has an insulated tip to deliver the energy only at the needle tip and not throughout the entire needle. This will shoot RF under the skin without the risk of burning the skin surface. Secret RF and others are not insulated.

As far as it's effectiveness, it's more suitable for those with shallower scars than deep scars. Even then, I think there are better treatments like TCA, which is more cost efficient.

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20 hours ago, Sirius Lee said:

Well, other people have already covered this in the past. The key difference between Genius/Infini and Secret RF (and many others on the market) is that Genius/Infini has an insulated tip to deliver the energy only at the needle tip and not throughout the entire needle. This will shoot RF under the skin without the risk of burning the skin surface. Secret RF and others are not insulated.

As far as it's effectiveness, it's more suitable for those with shallower scars than deep scars. Even then, I think there are better treatments like TCA, which is more cost efficient.

thank you @Sirius Lee- though to clarify secret RF has semi insulated and non insulated.

Secret RF is versatile and features a 64 pin and a 25 pin handpiece with adjustable needle penetration from 0.5mm to 3.5mm. The 64 pin handpiece features semi-insulated needles and is useful for efficient treatment of larger areas, whereas the 25 pin handpiece can be used with either semi-insulated or non-insulated needles for the treatment of smaller areas. The 25 pin non-insulated handpiece is recommended for skin types I-III”

would you ever recommend a fat transfer for atrophic scarring (deep boxcar)? Would you ever recommend Taylor liberator subcision?

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49 minutes ago, Catharsis2018 said:

would you ever recommend a fat transfer for atrophic scarring (deep boxcar)? Would you ever recommend Taylor liberator subcision?

 

Fat is the most expensive and probably most unstable of all fillers. These days, filler technology has increased so much there's really no reason to resort to your own fat.

Would I recommend Taylor Liberator? Personally, I'm not a big fan of subcision, be it Nokor, Cannula or TL. All that subcision does is cut the scar band. It's not like it will magically make your scar disappear. Plus a lot of people think their scars are tethered when in fact it ain't. That's why you see little to no improvement. But they believe their scars got re-tethered in 3 days. Unbelievable.

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11 hours ago, Sirius Lee said:

 

Fat is the most expensive and probably most unstable of all fillers. These days, filler technology has increased so much there's really no reason to resort to your own fat.

Would I recommend Taylor Liberator? Personally, I'm not a big fan of subcision, be it Nokor, Cannula or TL. All that subcision does is cut the scar band. It's not like it will magically make your scar disappear. Plus a lot of people think their scars are tethered when in fact it ain't. That's why you see little to no improvement. But they believe their scars got re-tethered in 3 days. Unbelievable.

If hearing lots of popping sound during subcision, does it mean it actually works for the scars? 

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21 hours ago, Jack817 said:

If hearing lots of popping sound during subcision, does it mean it actually works for the scars? 

I think subcision is great as the starting base treatment. I have gotten 3 and I definitely see an improvement to the overall depth and shape of a lot of my scars but it definitely doesn't completely remove them especially if they are shallow. Unfortunately in top down lighting where you can see shadows it looks like no improvement since even the smallest indent can cast a large shadow. 

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12 hours ago, Jack817 said:

If hearing lots of popping sound during subcision, does it mean it actually works for the scars? 

I personally am not convinced that these "popping sounds" come from the scar tissues. People getting dermal fillers often report that they hear popping sounds as well. Hence, it's likely from the friction.

The two following quotes are from the internet. As you can clearly see, there's something other than scars at play.

image.png.ccb0f6877781621363455fefc2d91f00.png

image.png.11c6d9cdd988b0ded05fc6d2ef6cfe58.png

 

 

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22 hours ago, Sirius Lee said:

I personally am not convinced that these "popping sounds" come from the scar tissues. People getting dermal fillers often report that they hear popping sounds as well. Hence, it's likely from the friction.

The two following quotes are from the internet. As you can clearly see, there's something other than scars at play.

image.png.ccb0f6877781621363455fefc2d91f00.png

image.png.11c6d9cdd988b0ded05fc6d2ef6cfe58.png

 

 

I think for people without scars, they won't hear lots of popping sound, but only a few. However, for people with tethered scars, they should hear a lot more since it comes with more scar tissues comparing to the normal facial tissue.  What do you think? 

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On 3/10/2021 at 2:44 PM, Sirius Lee said:

Personally, I'm not a big fan of subcision, be it Nokor, Cannula or TL. All that subcision does is cut the scar band. It's not like it will magically make your scar disappear. Plus a lot of people think their scars are tethered when in fact it ain't. That's why you see little to no improvement. But they believe their scars got re-tethered in 3 days. Unbelievable.

What do you suggest if not subcision? I have lots of rolling scars and therefore I think subcision would be an effective treatment for me. If I took your advice instead, what procedure would you have me try as an alternative? Thanks!

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I was watching a video about insights on the clinical outcome of Fractora (rf microneedling device) today. The treatment was recommended mainly for 50-60 year old patients who wouldn't like to subject themselves to a surgical facelift for a radical change in their appearance, but would be more than happy with some 30-40% improvement. Sublty reversing the signs of ageing, they would look like a more refreshed and confident version of themselves. That's the main purpose of the rf devices, including the rf microneedling - the improvement of skin texture, tone and tightness. Scars not so much.

I was also watching an expert discussion about RF energy devices on practicaldermatology and it struck me that the treatment of scars wasn't even worth mentioning. Asked about the efficacy of RFM on scars, Dr Victor Ross, a pioneer in the development of the first RF device Termage, simply dismissed the question and went on to speak what wonderful results the Genius achieves for perioral wrinkles and sagging of the lower portions of the face. Dr Ross by the way is involved in issuing a consensus on treating acne scars, so I'm assuming he knows a thing or two about scars. 

https://practicaldermatology.com/series/scientifically-speaking/rf-technologies-what-should-you-know?c4src=seriesin-this-series

And yet the Genius and Infini rf devices are being marketed and sold to us as the newest break through technology in the treatment of scars that would make lasers redundant. 

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5 hours ago, Marumi said:

I was watching a video about insights on the clinical outcome of Fractora (rf microneedling device) today. The treatment was recommended mainly for 50-60 year old patients who wouldn't like to subject themselves to a surgical facelift for a radical change in their appearance, but would be more than happy with some 30-40% improvement. Sublty reversing the signs of ageing, they would look like a more refreshed and confident version of themselves. That's the main purpose of the rf devices, including the rf microneedling - the improvement of skin texture, tone and tightness. Scars not so much.

I was also watching an expert discussion about RF energy devices on practicaldermatology and it struck me that the treatment of scars wasn't even worth mentioning. Asked about the efficacy of RFM on scars, Dr Victor Ross, a pioneer in the development of the first RF device Termage, simply dismissed the question and went on to speak what wonderful results the Genius achieves for perioral wrinkles and sagging of the lower portions of the face. Dr Ross by the way is involved in issuing a consensus on treating acne scars, so I'm assuming he knows a thing or two about scars. 

https://practicaldermatology.com/series/scientifically-speaking/rf-technologies-what-should-you-know?c4src=seriesin-this-series

And yet the Genius and Infini rf devices are being marketed and sold to us as the newest break through technology in the treatment of scars that would make lasers redundant. 

Hi Marumi! Don't know much about Fractora but I think maybe you misunderstood an important part of the video you posted. I just watched it and Dr. Ross said that it was good for acne scars at 9:30.

The interviewer said "Vic, from your perspective, what are the best uses where you can see a significant improvement with an RF device?", and he said #1 was facial wrinkles, #2 acne scars. The interviewer (a doctor) also seemed to have a very positive view of treating acne scars with RF.

Interesting video though!

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3 hours ago, Rickyduds said:

Hi Marumi! Don't know much about Fractora but I think maybe you misunderstood an important part of the video you posted. I just watched it and Dr. Ross said that it was good for acne scars at 9:30.

The interviewer said "Vic, from your perspective, what are the best uses where you can see a significant improvement with an RF device?", and he said #1 was facial wrinkles, #2 acne scars. The interviewer (a doctor) also seemed to have a very positive view of treating acne scars with RF.

Interesting video though!

I don't think I misunderstood anything. Asked about the potential of RFM of treating scars, Dr Ross deflected the question and answered about wrinkles - the true indication for rfm.  Bear in mind he's probably one of the doctors who know the most about rf devices as he was involved in the first animal model studies on Thermage. 

I don't believe Dr Victor Ross "has a positive view about treating scars with rfm". As I said, in 2015 he co-published a consensus about treating scars, and to my surprise, RFM wasn't even mentioned as a treatment option for any kind of scars. Here a summary & the publication itself. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4570086/

Add that to the predominantly negative reviews on Infini/Genius on this forum and the only one RCT on RFM from South Korea coming to the conclusion that the non ablative Er:Glass gives better results than RFM.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25810322/

Otherwise I agree. It is an interesting video. The other videos from the series are also worth watching. 

Screenshot_20210326-003333.jpg

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Does the Genius improve ice picks and narrow boxcars? Or hypertrophic scars on the chin? 

 

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