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1 hour ago, Miro said:

I am not talking about wrinkles or some superfcial scars, i am talking about acne scaring medium - deep, and laser simply doesnt work for em thats the reason not aftercare , and as for davin lim, i saw some of his videos and pics befores afters, he likes to play with lightning and angle a lot.

Obviously deep and medium scars need taylor liberator (real deal subscision) to start as well as good fillers 

are u not seeing the point of me bring up ablative lasers for TEXTURE

 

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

This is some before and afters that clearly demonstrate the efficacy of TAYLOR LIBERATOR

3 hours ago, Kia575 said:

I think they are just afraid of complications in general when you blast somebody’s face with laser you just never know what you’re going to get, I am willing to try RF micro needling, sub s and TCA one more time and then move onto the harder laser work. Dr. Lim has also said that lasers will not treat deep acne scars which I definitely have which is another reason I am doing RF first.
 

By the way where are your before and after pics? If you got such great results from Taylor and laser can you show us?

Anyone who wants to see my results can contact me privately....

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

 

Any results u see of taylor liberator online have all been good from what ive seen so do some google searching

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2 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

Obviously deep and medium scars need taylor liberator (real deal subscision) to start as well as good fillers 

are u not seeing the point of me bring up ablative lasers for TEXTURE

 

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

This is some before and afters that clearly demonstrate the efficacy of TAYLOR LIBERATOR

Anyone who wants to see my results can contact me privately....

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

 

Any results u see of taylor liberator online have all been good from what ive seen so do some google searching

Texture Yes 

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Just now, Miro said:

Texture Yes 

I will never tell you that lasers will lift scars... Microneedling RF at high energy does to an extent but really its all filler and sub...

 

I will tell you though that canula is inferior to taylor lib and you guys can either believe me and look and look at the many crazy before and afters online or say its not good when u havent even tried it yourself

 

doctors are simply scared to use it and as a patient the higher the risk u take the greater the reward will be

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3 hours ago, aestheticseeker said:

I will never tell you that lasers will lift scars... Microneedling RF at high energy does to an extent but really its all filler and sub...

 

I will tell you though that canula is inferior to taylor lib and you guys can either believe me and look and look at the many crazy before and afters online or say its not good when u havent even tried it yourself

 

doctors are simply scared to use it and as a patient the higher the risk u take the greater the reward will be


when you got Taylor done did you look like the girl on IG, with big swollen cheeks? How long were you swollen? also are there any scars left over from the entry point of the sub s instrument?

4 hours ago, aestheticseeker said:

Obviously deep and medium scars need taylor liberator (real deal subscision) to start as well as good fillers 

are u not seeing the point of me bring up ablative lasers for TEXTURE

 

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

This is some before and afters that clearly demonstrate the efficacy of TAYLOR LIBERATOR

Anyone who wants to see my results can contact me privately....

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

 

Any results u see of taylor liberator online have all been good from what ive seen so do some google searching

That link to contact you doesn’t work it just takes you to the Taylor page 

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On 12/12/2020 at 7:20 PM, aestheticseeker said:

Obviously deep and medium scars need taylor liberator (real deal subscision) to start as well as good fillers 

are u not seeing the point of me bring up ablative lasers for TEXTURE

 

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

This is some before and afters that clearly demonstrate the efficacy of TAYLOR LIBERATOR

Anyone who wants to see my results can contact me privately....

https://www.facebook.com/sotoodian/posts/it-is-crucial-to-use-subcision-taylor-liberator-for-ice-pick-or-boxcar-acne-scar/776866332694376/

 

Any results u see of taylor liberator online have all been good from what ive seen so do some google searching

What is the difference between Taylor liberator and cannula subcision , i mean results, how does Taylor liberator gets better results then cannula , enlighten us , what i know for sure Taylor liberator does absolutely unnecesery colateral damage and has potentialy far worse side effects then cannula. And also , subcision doesnt work for Ice pick scars 

 

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On 12/11/2020 at 7:27 PM, aestheticseeker said:

sorry but i dont think anyone on this forum should be lying to themselves thinking they got improvements because i too have been there. I wasted about 10-15k on bs treatments that did little to nothing till i found doctors willing to be aggressive asf because I am able to handle large amounts of downtime, discomfort etc.for example: I have had full field 500 micron resurfacing.... my face felt like IT WAS ON FIRE for 5 days and even now its still red asf but guess what i see that crazy texture improvement and the erythema could linger for awhile but it will infact go away with time, bomb skincare and IPL/BBL,nd:yag treatments. 

 

People on here are coming at me thinking im a doctor myself just because of my familiarity and use technical terms but thats just because i have done research, read studies on end and have literally done it all when it comes to treatments.

 

EDUCATE YOURSELVES so I can save you from the mistakes i made spending loads of money and getting mediocre improvements.

Hey check your dms, I’m more than open to any wisdom and info. I’ve also spent thousands and at this point, not down for any more mistakes.

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1 hour ago, Miro said:

What is the difference between Taylor liberator and cannula subcision , i mean results, how does Taylor liberator gets better results then cannula , enlighten us , what i know for sure Taylor liberator does absolutely unnecesery colateral damage and has potentialy far worse side effects then cannula. And also , subcision doesnt work for Ice pick scars 

 

Not my write up but very well put:

 

Blunt cannula subcision is, by comparison, much less traumatic than Nokor needle subcision; this is probably due to the relative sparing of perforator vessels. It is important to remember that blunt cannulas were developed to minimise cutting, and trauma, to the superficial sub-dermis. They facilitate the administration of hyaluronic acid dermal fillers in a relatively atraumatic and haematoma-sparing manner. It therefore seems counter-intuitive that a tool that was developed for atraumatic sparing of subdermal structures can then be used to sever the tethering below scars. The reality is that these relatively fine gauge of cannulas (25G or 22G) are in fact 'poking holes', instead of completely releasing tethering. This results in incomplete scar release; some additional effect often being delivered through deposition of a dermal filler. 

The technique is also quite challenging due to the tendency for cannulas to bend. 

 

The authors have been using this method of subcision for acne scars since 2016 when Dr Hussein introduced the technique to the UK. They have performed well over a hundred cases in this time. It is the authors’ opinion that this subcision method allows for complete transection of fibrotic bands with minimal bleeding, swelling and haematoma formation. It offers a swift recovery and sustained long term results without the need for procedural repetition.

 

Same goes for the comparison of canula vs Taylor 

All quoted from:

https://www.drhconsult.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/CRFeatureVol3Q2-2020-TaylorLiberatorHR-002.pdf

I advice all of you to throughly read the last page of this

Edited by aestheticseeker
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12 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

Not my write up but very well put:

 

Blunt cannula subcision is, by comparison, much less traumatic than Nokor needle subcision; this is probably due to the relative sparing of perforator vessels. It is important to remember that blunt cannulas were developed to minimise cutting, and trauma, to the superficial sub-dermis. They facilitate the administration of hyaluronic acid dermal fillers in a relatively atraumatic and haematoma-sparing manner. It therefore seems counter-intuitive that a tool that was developed for atraumatic sparing of subdermal structures can then be used to sever the tethering below scars. The reality is that these relatively fine gauge of cannulas (25G or 22G) are in fact 'poking holes', instead of completely releasing tethering. This results in incomplete scar release; some additional effect often being delivered through deposition of a dermal filler. 

The technique is also quite challenging due to the tendency for cannulas to bend. 

 

The authors have been using this method of subcision for acne scars since 2016 when Dr Hussein introduced the technique to the UK. They have performed well over a hundred cases in this time. It is the authors’ opinion that this subcision method allows for complete transection of fibrotic bands with minimal bleeding, swelling and haematoma formation. It offers a swift recovery and sustained long term results without the need for procedural repetition.

 

Same goes for the comparison of canula vs Taylor 

All quoted from:

https://www.drhconsult.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/CRFeatureVol3Q2-2020-TaylorLiberatorHR-002.pdf

I advice all of you to throughly read the last page of this

Oh so its dr H from London :-), its his opinion, its not a study, because studies clearly say something different, cannula is capable to cut all the tethers which is the point of subcision with minimal side effects and better results then nokor , and dr that knows what he is doing will cut all the tethers with it, i underwent subcision 4 times never ever Cannula bended its nonsense, and if it bends cause of resistence  dr switches to nokor  or just uses another cannula needle. Nokor needle doesnt have better results then cannula, quite contrary and taylor doesnt have better results then nokor or cannula , its just easier for doctor to perform it because it destroys everything that gets in its way , it does big and unnecessery trauma to the skin, not mentioning possible scaring from entry point with this screwdriver entering skin. 

REMEMBER : the purpose of subcision is cut all the tethers thats it, it doesnt matter what instrument u use unless you cut all the tethers, so naturally skilled dr will use cannula because it has minimal side effects and the job is done, it takes longer time and precision and skill, thats why not everybody is doing it .

and btw i am not interested in opinion of Dr H from london I saw his work and his befores afters and i know what to think of it .

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1 minute ago, Miro said:

Oh so its dr H from London :-), its his opinion, its not a study, because studies clearly say something different, cannula is capable to cut all the tethers which is the point of subcision with minimal side effects and better results then nokor , and dr that knows what he is doing will cut all the tethers with it, i underwent subcision 4 times never ever Cannula bended its nonsense, and if it bends cause of resistence  dr switches to nokor  or just uses another cannula needle. Nokor needle doesnt have better results then cannula, quite contrary and taylor doesnt have better results then nokor or cannula , its just easier for doctor to perform it because it destroys everything that gets in its way , it does big and unnecessery trauma to the skin, not mentioning possible scaring from entry point with this screwdriver entering skin. 

REMEMBER : the purpose of subcision is cut all the tethers thats it, it doesnt matter what instrument u use unless you cut all the tethers, so naturally skilled dr will use cannula because it has minimal side effects and the job is done, it takes longer time and precision and skill, thats why not everybody is doing it .

and btw i am not interested in opinion of Dr H from london I saw his work and his befores afters and i know what to think of it .

Ive had 5+ canula subscisions (Aggressively) and tethers never fully severed but we will see for ourselves when i do taylor tmrw

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Just now, aestheticseeker said:

Ive had 5+ canula subscisions and tethers never fully severed but we will see for ourselves when i do taylor tmrw

then change the doctor, i never had problem with it, the problem is elsewhere, u need filler to prevent tethers from rethetering thats it, and when fillers run out, dents will reappear , yes theres improvement but they reappear to some extent , thats the problem, it happens always no matter what instrument u use, that girl on IG that underwent subc with Talyor + laser with DR H looked very good first month cause of swelling, second month u could clearly scars reapearing , its sadly so 

4 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

Ive had 5+ canula subscisions (Aggressively) and tethers never fully severed but we will see for ourselves when i do taylor tmrw

Btw wish u all the best with treatment, hopefully u get improvement u want, keep us updated , GL 

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1 minute ago, Miro said:

then change the doctor, i never had problem with it, the problem is elsewhere, u need filler to prevent tethers from rethetering thats it, and when fillers run out, dents will reappear , yes theres improvement but they reappear to some extent , thats the problem, it happens always no matter what instrument u use, that girl on IG that underwent subc with Talyor + laser with DR H looked very good first month cause of swelling, second month u could clearly scars reapearing , its sadly so 

if only you knew how much filler ive done lol

the latest dr who did my canula subs is very much capable and was the maximum level of aggressiveness with it.

 

Yes her scars started coming back but barely imo 

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4 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

if only you knew how much filler ive done lol

the latest dr who did my canula subs is very much capable and was the maximum level of aggressiveness with it.

 

Yes her scars started coming back but barely imo 

well i saw her instagram, now wonder she stoped posting , its usualy so, long term effects are not there, or are not as much as people would like to be , taylor + full abl laser is killer, you can heal for 6 months from it, its overkill trust me if second month scars are coming back , well 4-5 months after u will be realy disapointed , i hope she will get some improvement , but i doubt it will be something great 

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5 minutes ago, Miro said:

well i saw her instagram, now wonder she stoped posting , its usualy so, long term effects are not there, or are not as much as people would like to be , taylor + full abl laser is killer, you can heal for 6 months from it, its overkill trust me if second month scars are coming back , well 4-5 months after u will be realy disapointed , i hope she will get some improvement , but i doubt it will be something great 

Her aftercare is probably terrible putting makeup on left n right... And no surprise she deactivated her IG cause who makes an instagram all about scars other than a lunatic loosing her mind 

 

Fully ablative is only as good as the aftercare that comes with it remember that

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4 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

Her aftercare is probably terrible putting makeup on left n right... And no surprise she deactivated her IG cause who makes an instagram all about scars other than a lunatic loosing her mind 

 

Fully ablative is only as good as the aftercare that comes with it remember that

Well aftercare is important , but full ablative laser has a Lot more risks then fractional laser and results depend also on skill of operátor , so tommorow u re doin subc + laser ? 

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38 minutes ago, Miro said:

Well aftercare is important , but full ablative laser has a Lot more risks then fractional laser and results depend also on skill of operátor , so tommorow u re doin subc + laser ? 

2.5 weeks ago i already did 500 micron full field resurfacing with erbium (sciton trl) with 4mm spot size and focus on the individual small boxcars before that

 

Already seeing perm improvements due to the 4mm spot size being used and focus on the scars (davin lim is a huge advocate of this method as well)

 

and yes tmrw i really am doing taylor lib for 1.5k 

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1 hour ago, aestheticseeker said:

2.5 weeks ago i already did 500 micron full field resurfacing with erbium (sciton trl) with 4mm spot size and focus on the individual small boxcars before that

 

Already seeing perm improvements due to the 4mm spot size being used and focus on the scars (davin lim is a huge advocate of this method as well)

 

and yes tmrw i really am doing taylor lib for 1.5k 

Well wait at least 3 month after laser to see real  results , so u re doing subc with TL and no laser now , will u get also a filler ? 

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9 hours ago, Miro said:

Well wait at least 3 month after laser to see real  results , so u re doing subc with TL and no laser now , will u get also a filler ? 

filler doesnt matter too much at this point i have over 15ml of ha and radiesse combined in my face for aesthetics and scars

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16 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

filler doesnt matter too much at this point i have over 15ml of ha and radiesse combined in my face for aesthetics and scars

Well thats a lot , are u  happy with radiesse ? It lasts 2 years ? And also will subcision with TL affect fillers ?

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14 hours ago, aestheticseeker said:

2.5 weeks ago i already did 500 micron full field resurfacing with erbium (sciton trl) with 4mm spot size and focus on the individual small boxcars before that

 

Already seeing perm improvements due to the 4mm spot size being used and focus on the scars (davin lim is a huge advocate of this method as well)

 

and yes tmrw i really am doing taylor lib for 1.5k 

Can you please re-post the link to wherever it is that you feel comfortable showing photos? How did you find a doctor willing to do 500 micron ? 

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7 hours ago, Miro said:

Well thats a lot , are u  happy with radiesse ? It lasts 2 years ? And also will subcision with TL affect fillers ?

there are definitely pros and cons to radiesse... But it really lasts very long yes

TL shouldnt affect the filler injections i have down to bone if its done right in the correct plane

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22 minutes ago, aestheticseeker said:

there are definitely pros and cons to radiesse... But it really lasts very long yes

TL shouldnt affect the filler injections i have down to bone if its done right in the correct plane

That experience with radiesse, what are cons and pros , i am eager to know

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14 minutes ago, Miro said:

That experience with radiesse, what are cons and pros , i am eager to know

well my initial radiesse injection was for jawline augmentation and i had used 6cc total

 

1) Radiesse really sucks cause of that initial swelling onset that happens very quickly for me and the same for others but some patients do not swell as much/fast

2) This being said i really realized the importance of having a crazy skilled injector for the product because it simply is nothing like HA

3) Dilute radiesse is amazing and a lot easier to work with... Ive done this for my under eyes to reduce dark circles (works due to the color of the product being white) and scaring after canula subs 

 

 

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5 hours ago, aestheticseeker said:

well my initial radiesse injection was for jawline augmentation and i had used 6cc total

 

1) Radiesse really sucks cause of that initial swelling onset that happens very quickly for me and the same for others but some patients do not swell as much/fast

2) This being said i really realized the importance of having a crazy skilled injector for the product because it simply is nothing like HA

3) Dilute radiesse is amazing and a lot easier to work with... Ive done this for my under eyes to reduce dark circles (works due to the color of the product being white) and scaring after canula subs 

 

 

And how did u like your results for acne scars ( radiesse ) ? , was it injected right after subcision, or u did wait few days for swelling to go down ? 

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On 12/13/2020 at 8:30 PM, aestheticseeker said:

Not my write up but very well put:

 

Blunt cannula subcision is, by comparison, much less traumatic than Nokor needle subcision; this is probably due to the relative sparing of perforator vessels. It is important to remember that blunt cannulas were developed to minimise cutting, and trauma, to the superficial sub-dermis. They facilitate the administration of hyaluronic acid dermal fillers in a relatively atraumatic and haematoma-sparing manner. It therefore seems counter-intuitive that a tool that was developed for atraumatic sparing of subdermal structures can then be used to sever the tethering below scars. The reality is that these relatively fine gauge of cannulas (25G or 22G) are in fact 'poking holes', instead of completely releasing tethering. This results in incomplete scar release; some additional effect often being delivered through deposition of a dermal filler. 

The technique is also quite challenging due to the tendency for cannulas to bend. 

 

The authors have been using this method of subcision for acne scars since 2016 when Dr Hussein introduced the technique to the UK. They have performed well over a hundred cases in this time. It is the authors’ opinion that this subcision method allows for complete transection of fibrotic bands with minimal bleeding, swelling and haematoma formation. It offers a swift recovery and sustained long term results without the need for procedural repetition.

 

Same goes for the comparison of canula vs Taylor 

All quoted from:

https://www.drhconsult.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/CRFeatureVol3Q2-2020-TaylorLiberatorHR-002.pdf

I advice all of you to throughly read the last page of this

So how is TL subcision better than cannula? I still don't get it. The sole purpose of subsicion is to cut through tethers that hold the scar depressed and sunken in, nothing else. The gentler the method used to achieve that, the better. It translates into less collateral tissue damage. Always the principle is the less invasive, the better! Besides, you can easily tell that the cannula subcision has been successful by the popping sound: if you don't hear it any more, it means the tethers have been subcised. What more can you do using Taylor Liberator if not to cause more damage and if you are a doctor to charge more because you know it's the big gun among the treatments??

Why are Dr Lim, Dr Emil, Dr Weiner, Dr Rullan not endorsing this method IF it is so promising? You think they don't want good results for their patients? 

And finally to suggest that TL subcision will solve your problems doesn't make any sense at all. Usually the tethered scars are also atrophic lacking collagen or fat tissue amd no number of subcisions can fill those dents, you just cut the tethers but still need something to address this atrophy. 

If somwbody can explain to me why TL is better than cannula subcision with logical scientific arguments, please do it! I've asked Dr Mark Taylor and Dr H on social media for a brief explanation. of course they answer questions about how much it costs and how people can book an appointment but my question is ignored. Good that I asked Dr Emil as well and his answer was that the TL is a total overkill and oversell!

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1 hour ago, Sisi90 said:

So how is TL subcision better than cannula? I still don't get it. The sole purpose of subsicion is to cut through tethers that hold the scar depressed and sunken in, nothing else. The gentler the method used to achieve that, the better. It translates into less collateral tissue damage. Always the principle is the less invasive, the better! Besides, you can easily tell that the cannula subcision has been successful by the popping sound: if you don't hear it any more, it means the tethers have been subcised. What more can you do using Taylor Liberator if not to cause more damage and if you are a doctor to charge more because you know it's the big gun among the treatments??

Why are Dr Lim, Dr Emil, Dr Weiner, Dr Rullan not endorsing this method IF it is so promising? You think they don't want good results for their patients? 

And finally to suggest that TL subcision will solve your problems doesn't make any sense at all. Usually the tethered scars are also atrophic lacking collagen or fat tissue amd no number of subcisions can fill those dents, you just cut the tethers but still need something to address this atrophy. 

If somwbody can explain to me why TL is better than cannula subcision with logical scientific arguments, please do it! I've asked Dr Mark Taylor and Dr H on social media for a brief explanation. of course they answer questions about how much it costs and how people can book an appointment but my question is ignored. Good that I asked Dr Emil as well and his answer was that the TL is a total overkill and oversell!

You havent done taylor liberator on myself but I have and am currently undergoing healing of it... I just love how people talk about things they have not undergone themselves. 

 

The reasoning those doctors dont offer this is simple:

1) canula subscisions are rarely 1 and done and more treatments = more $

weiner and lim have sold themselves to lutronic... these dudes are classic businessmen

 

2) TL is obviously riskier in terms of patient safety but with greater risk comes reward and i have said it before in regards to weiner for example not liking to be aggressive on patients whatsoever.

I highly suspect that weiner decided to go non surgical and do the basics a derm would do after literally studying plastics cause he probably sucked at what he was doing  

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