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Ivan_070703

Deeper Scars and Lumps From Aggressive Nokor Subcision

Your scars have improved quite a lot imo! Keep massaging those lumps every now and then. It's only temporary stop worrying.

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6 minutes ago, hsd87 said:

Your scars have improved quite a lot imo! Keep massaging those lumps every now and then. It's only temporary stop worrying.

Thanks for your words of encouragement hsd87.

Yes I did tried massaging, it causes the lumps to go down for maybe a couple of minutes at most, then it seems to pop back up.

The largest lump feels rubbery, even spongy, like there is some really thick fluid trapped underneath.

I will continue to update every few days with pics, regardless of whether the outcome is good or not, for info sharing and in case anyone else is planning to go down the Nokor subcision route

 

Edited by Ivan_070703

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@Ivan_070703 have you considered seeing another dermatologist for a second opinion on the lumps. I recently had lumps form due to an allergic reaction to Juvederm and was given Prednisone and steroid injections, which helped the lumps to go down. Not sure if this would help with hematomas resulting from subcision though.

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8 hours ago, superburrito said:

@Ivan_070703 have you considered seeing another dermatologist for a second opinion on the lumps. I recently had lumps form due to an allergic reaction to Juvederm and was given Prednisone and steroid injections, which helped the lumps to go down. Not sure if this would help with hematomas resulting from subcision though.

Hi Superburrito,

 

My layman's understanding of hematomas are that they are a collection of coagulated blood just under the skin's surface, and theoretically, the body will slowly drain away this blood as the original wound heals.

Juvederm on the other hand is a filler, it is man-made and very rarely, the body might see it as a foreign substance and reject it, hence triggering a allergic reaction. So i think hematomas are different from fillers, but yes, a few other folks have also suggested steroid injections to bring them down. I am holding back for now because I already have fat loss on the cheeks, and steroid (if done too aggressively) can cause side effects like more fat atrophy. 

Got another appointment with my derm next wed, I might ask him to drain the hematoma or explore other options. If he gets too defensive, I will seek a second opinion.

Besides the allergic reactions, I am curious about your experience with Juvederm fillers. Did you find that they help? 

Edited by Ivan_070703

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Unfortunately new scars after Nokor( Nokor was inserted right near the edge of the scar, left a pockmark which later merged with the old scar( in several other places there are separate small pockmarks from Nokor.. from Chu’s Sub with Nokor..so the next Dr did Sun in them as well, they improved a bit but still there.. I do see some improvement on your pic... just give it a time..

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On 3/1/2020 at 2:29 AM, Sibel said:

Unfortunately new scars after Nokor( Nokor was inserted right near the edge of the scar, left a pockmark which later merged with the old scar( in several other places there are separate small pockmarks from Nokor.. from Chu’s Sub with Nokor..so the next Dr did Sun in them as well, they improved a bit but still there.. I do see some improvement on your pic... just give it a time..

After read you story I'm scared to get a subcission.
@Ivan_070703 any updates?

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Hey guys,

Sorry for the lack of updates, I had to stay away from these forums for a while for the sake of my sanity.

It has been roughly four and a half weeks. The bad news is that those lumps and nodules from the nokor subcision are still there. Those on my left cheek in the pics which I had massaged are still prominent.

Now for the good news. Those lumps on my right cheek, which I did not touch, message or apply any compress, are softening. There are still there, but compared to two weeks ago, they have began to flatten and are softer to the touch. They used to be hard rubbery lumps.

Bottomline for me is that it is better NOT to touch or manipulate those lumps, just let the body do its thing. Right now I just don't want to focus too much on them, because if I start obsessing over them, I will want to do something and so far my intervention has only made things worst!

My dermatologist said to leave them alone and wait until 8 weeks before considering steroid injections to bring them down.

Will continue to update periodically.

 

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 5:51 AM, Y2J97 said:

After read you story I'm scared to get a subcission.
@Ivan_070703 any updates?

Hi Y2J97,

Do note that subcision is generally a well-tolerated procedure, a number of members on this forum has seen good improvements from it.

The thing about acne and scarring is that everyone's skin and body chemistry is so different, the holy grail treatment for one person could be the bane for another.

I would add that subcision is very skill dependent i.e. it has more to do with the expertise of the surgeon doing it than anything else. This is very different compared to lasers, where the machine controls the depth and intensity.

If you choose to go ahead with subcision, my advice would be to go with a doctor that you can trust and are comfortable with. Aggressive Nokor is definitely not for everyone, it can lead to complications which hopefully in my case, will resolve with time.

 

 

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Hi Urbantie,

 

Unfortunately, the doctor who did the nokor subcision was rather defensive and I couldn't get much straight answers from him. 

I saw some of your older posts where you described you have lumpiness from incorrectly placed fillers. From your pictures, I see similarities between my new scars and yours. As in, the lumpiness actually makes the surface of the skin even more uneven and causes the adjacent scars to become more obvious.

Now, from my layman's understanding, the key difference between the subcision lumpiness and filler lumpiness is that the former should subside. Mine are still very prominent visually, but when I touch them today compared to a month ago, they have soften. My hope is that they will continue to soften and hopefully flatten given more time. I have seen at least one research paper involving 40 subcision patients where firm lumps at the subcision sites completely resolved by 3 months. There are several posters here which mentioned the lumps taking anywhere from a month to 3 months to go away.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281429377_Subcision_in_the_Treatment_of_Acne_Scar_in_Iraqi_Patients

I suspect these subcision lumps are actually just skin tissue that is healing. This is very different from fillers which are a foreign substance injected into the skin, and somethings if injected too superficially, can stay on the surface of the skin for a long time. 

If I could reverse time I still would not do the nokor subcision, it introduces a lot of trauma to the skin, that 18g needle is huge! The recovery process has been a emotional roller-coaster. 

 

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I've only done cannula subcision and I'd suggest sticking with that and not nokor. You should also consider a filler or sculptra the address what looks like fat loss. Cannula subcisions every 3-4 months with sculptra I think would give you a huge improvement as long as your derm knows what he's doing. 

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21 hours ago, Ivan_070703 said:

Hi Urbantie,

 

Unfortunately, the doctor who did the nokor subcision was rather defensive and I couldn't get much straight answers from him. 

I saw some of your older posts where you described you have lumpiness from incorrectly placed fillers. From your pictures, I see similarities between my new scars and yours. As in, the lumpiness actually makes the surface of the skin even more uneven and causes the adjacent scars to become more obvious.

Now, from my layman's understanding, the key difference between the subcision lumpiness and filler lumpiness is that the former should subside. Mine are still very prominent visually, but when I touch them today compared to a month ago, they have soften. My hope is that they will continue to soften and hopefully flatten given more time. I have seen at least one research paper involving 40 subcision patients where firm lumps at the subcision sites completely resolved by 3 months. There are several posters here which mentioned the lumps taking anywhere from a month to 3 months to go away.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281429377_Subcision_in_the_Treatment_of_Acne_Scar_in_Iraqi_Patients

I suspect these subcision lumps are actually just skin tissue that is healing. This is very different from fillers which are a foreign substance injected into the skin, and somethings if injected too superficially, can stay on the surface of the skin for a long time. 

If I could reverse time I still would not do the nokor subcision, it introduces a lot of trauma to the skin, that 18g needle is huge! The recovery process has been a emotional roller-coaster. 

 

Thank you. That was a really good article and I hope you are a bit more comfortable now given that the lumps are likely to go down.

I was surprised that there was no mention of re-tethering in the article AND this particular study did not use derma fillers in conjunction with subcision.

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1 hour ago, Urbanite said:

Thank you. That was a really good article and I hope you are a bit more comfortable now given that the lumps are likely to go down.

I was surprised that there was no mention of re-tethering in the article AND this particular study did not use derma fillers in conjunction with subcision.

No worries Urbanite, happy to share what I know.

Have a question for you on microneedling, you mentioned that in 2017 you had Skinpen your left temple and were not happy with the results.  In particular, the tethered areas seemed to get deeper, while the surrounding healthy skin got puffier. 

Would appreciate if you could share:

- whether the skin you micro-needled over returned to normal eventually

- what was the depth of microneedling and was any serum (e.g. hyaluronic acid, vitamin c) used

- did you have fillers in that area? (this is totally a wild guess but could it be that the microneedle pushed the fillers out of the tethered areas into surrounding healthy skin?)

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ivan_070703 said:

No worries Urbanite, happy to share what I know.

Have a question for you on microneedling, you mentioned that in 2017 you had Skinpen your left temple and were not happy with the results.  In particular, the tethered areas seemed to get deeper, while the surrounding healthy skin got puffier. 

Would appreciate if you could share:

- whether the skin you micro-needled over returned to normal eventually

- what was the depth of microneedling and was any serum (e.g. hyaluronic acid, vitamin c) used

- did you have fillers in that area? (this is totally a wild guess but could it be that the microneedle pushed the fillers out of the tethered areas into surrounding healthy skin?)

Well, I was so dissatisfied with the result that I asked the doctor -- the aesthetician had Skinpenned me -- to fill the area to even it out. It had not been filled prior to Skinpen. He overfilled it, it looked awful but in about eight months the Restylane Lyft dissolved.

The result is an oddly flattened area like the fat is gone but the scars are still there. I'd say I traded one type of scarring appearance for another.  I don't think Skinpen is recommended for acne scaring, at least not my rolling scar type.  If I'd done this to my cheeks and the result was similar to my temple, I likely would have been on a suicide watch.

Don't remember depth and I think I did apply hyaluronic acid to it daily for about a week or two.  I'll see if I have a photo and post later.

 

Edited by Urbanite

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On 3/10/2020 at 5:59 AM, Ivan_070703 said:

No worries Urbanite, happy to share what I know.

Have a question for you on microneedling, you mentioned that in 2017 you had Skinpen your left temple and were not happy with the results.  In particular, the tethered areas seemed to get deeper, while the surrounding healthy skin got puffier. 

Would appreciate if you could share:

- whether the skin you micro-needled over returned to normal eventually

- what was the depth of microneedling and was any serum (e.g. hyaluronic acid, vitamin c) used

- did you have fillers in that area? (this is totally a wild guess but could it be that the microneedle pushed the fillers out of the tethered areas into surrounding healthy skin?)

 

 

 

How are doing , bumps went away ? 

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On 3/21/2020 at 4:58 AM, Miro said:

How are doing , bumps went away ? 

Hey Miro,

It has been about 7 weeks, the lumps are still there. 

The huge one of my left cheek is still very prominent. I think it is softening a bit though, but it is really hard to tell because I am looking at it and feeling it daily.

I have about three lumps on my right cheek, one of which has definitely come down and is softer. It's still there, but it is subsided. The other two is still bothering me.

Still regretted doing this Nokor subcision, I honestly don't think it did any good, just hoping that with time the damage would be reversed and the lumps would go away completely. It is very invasive, the Nokor needle is huge, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

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8 hours ago, Ivan_070703 said:

Hey Miro,

It has been about 7 weeks, the lumps are still there. 

The huge one of my left cheek is still very prominent. I think it is softening a bit though, but it is really hard to tell because I am looking at it and feeling it daily.

I have about three lumps on my right cheek, one of which has definitely come down and is softer. It's still there, but it is subsided. The other two is still bothering me.

Still regretted doing this Nokor subcision, I honestly don't think it did any good, just hoping that with time the damage would be reversed and the lumps would go away completely. It is very invasive, the Nokor needle is huge, I wouldn't recommend it.

 

Wish you all the best man and good recovery, I wouldnt agree to Nokor, I did twice subcision with cannula, no problems at all, but u can clearly see how skin heals  its not easy, nokor must be hell,.

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On 3/24/2020 at 2:43 PM, acnescarcure said:

Ivan, Did the indented areas improve at all though?

Hey Acnescarcure, it is very hard for me to say because in place of the scar and indentation, there are now lumps from the subcision. Both causes irregularities in the face, which is not good. I believe the optimal outcome is for our complexion to be smooth.

 

I am hoping that the lumps will resolve with time and will post pics further down the road. For now, I am trying not to look too much at my face because it is taking a mental toll. 

 

I would say again that Nokor subcision is no child's play. There are definitely people in this forums that has benefited from it, but the downtime and healing process is very long, and if you are self-conscious (which I am!) or have an anxious personality, it can be a mentally / emotionally draining experience.

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On 6/3/2020 at 2:41 AM, Gretha said:

Hi, how is now?

Hi there, 

Not great, it has been 4.5 months and the lumps are still there

Seriously regretting doing nokor subcision

Considering getting kenalog to reduce the lump but worried about its side effects!

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Gosh, so sorry to hear that you still have these bumps.. it seems like inside scars were developed and to destroy them you need the steroid injections(...it could be the fault of the Dr who used Nokor wrong or your individual skin properties... 
all these procedures take a huge mental toll...please Do not give up!

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8 hours ago, Sibel said:

Gosh, so sorry to hear that you still have these bumps.. it seems like inside scars were developed and to destroy them you need the steroid injections(...it could be the fault of the Dr who used Nokor wrong or your individual skin properties... 
all these procedures take a huge mental toll...please Do not give up!

Yeah it is really disheartening to get these treatments to improve your skin but ends up making things worst and creating another problem

I am really hesitation to get steroid injections because I read horror stories about it leaving an indentation in the skin and causing discoloration. I already have atrophic acne scars so the risk of getting more holes is not good.

On the other hand, the lumps are really obvious (I even consider them disfiguring) and I really want to do something about them!

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The key is to get a very low concentration of steroid injections.   The highest concentration you can get is 40 mg/mL.   For something like bringing down an inflamed acne cyst, the concentration is like 2.5 mg/ml.   If you get something on the lower end, you will help to flatten out the lumps without causing dents.   You have to do a series of injections so you don't over correct.    

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